my only pont was that someone who isnt really concerned with technology in a more basic form probably is not too concerned with the complexities of rhino...imho.
and come on...Herzog & de Mueron comparison...you think they are discussing the merits of rhino vs. sketchup in their shop?..ahh, who knows...but by default they have plenty of work on the web...you get to a certain 'stardom' in any field and your advertising is done for you.
architecture is a commercial endeavor...its far from free.
bigness...are you seriously judging a firm by its consideration of sketchup? Get real...its not for fancy rendering but its a pretty handy tool. I know firms, and have worked at a few, that successfully use many of those programs.
i agree jason. not having a site these days [starchitects aside] as other implications. i met with a firm a few months ago. they are not well known, but do rather nice work in seattle. they have no web site. they told me that five years ago, they used to get a couple dozen resumes a month. now they get a dozen a year. why? students just out of school, use the internet to see the work of a firm they are applying to. no site dissuades them from sending a resume. why would they send one if they don't know what they are getting into?
Bigness - 'to be honest, if you were trained in high end software it probably means you were producing somewhat interesting Architecture, are you sure that where you are now is the right place for you?'
Total bollox. You will be challenging histyory next. I guess that somewhat interesting Architecture has only been produces since we stared using computers for Practice in the 70's?
... and this image, is it architecture? Looks more like bloody phlem coughed up by someone with a nasty case of lung cancer.
funnily enough i doubt either zumpthor, hadid, h&dm, oma, som, foster or piano use sketchup.
of course it's not the only paramenter by which you judge a firm. for fuck's sake, get off your simplicity high horses and listen for a minute.
if someone has taken the time to learn a certain type of software, MAYBE it's because he has ways of using it in his work.and maybe if someone learn catia or GC he is interested in building more complex forms of Architecture, right?
if a firm is using sketchup as their only means of 3d development, MAYBE they are concerned with a much lower level of complexity than the person mentioned above. and that person might get bored.
what I judge interesting is personal, right? i'm not gonna challange history, you stuck up people. I can guess that someone who learns maya maybe wants to do stuff beyond louis barragan.
the xerofitarch image...yeah, it's architecture. it has been built, used and inhabited. just because it doesnt respond to your "right angles and some nice marble i can lick" standards...guess what was said by the neoclassical establishment when modernism was born? it's not Architecture...talk about knowing your history. Anyway, this is drifting off topic. all i'm saying is that maybe it's beyond sketchup and rhino, it's about working where you can be fulfilled.
i secretly use viz and am learning rhino on my own and don't want to tell my employer that i know those tools, why? because i don't want to be monkey and spend my days toiling in a sweatshop environment, i want to be an architect and build.
The argument that history proves that you don't need sophisticated software is not fully reasoned. Many historically relevant buildings are revered because their architects implemented a new building method or technology that was a breakthrough for that time. The parthenon, the pantheon, gothic cathedrals, all the way up to the pompideu center, the ricola factory and bilbao, are just a few examples. Just because plenty of buildings were built without the use of computers, does not mean that we should continue those methods. To further the practice of architecture, you must push the envelope, explore new methods and experiment with every single tool that is available to you.
That is how history is made.
history is not made by software, but by creative talent. Ignore all 3d software and just use paper + pen(cil).
The part of architecture that is the most rapidly changing (and therefore the most prone to become obsolete) is the computer software.
Am I a better designer if I can use gee-whiz technology- NO. learn the fundimentals of how to build something and create places- then just learn the least number of commands in whatever the software du jour is.
I've learned formZ, maya, viz, rhino, sketchup and lots of other crap that I never have had to use on the job. Maybe if you are fresh out of school with no other valuable skilz, then software is your game- but that doesn't make you a good architect or help finish IDP.
Bilboa would have been built without catia- all FOG did was crumple up some cardboard. He could have made a better building if he didn't have catia as a crutch to deal with the lazy geometries that he glued together and called a building.
beta- you have too much experience to be shoehorned into a monkey suit. So why are you learning these programs?
are you envious of the greenhorns that only can relate to the computer?
do you think these skilz will make you a better designer?
Nobody in Mpls seems to be wrapped up in the my software is bigger then your software pissing game, so what is your motivation?
If you want to go back to grad school, don't worry about learning any software, it will all change before you enroll and then you'll have plenty of time to pick up the latest and greatest as part of your tuition....
guys, seriously, all this "go back to paper and pencil" is the stupidest argument i have ever heard. yeah, lets forget technology and go back to the stone age. damn people, then u wonder why we're considered a useless profession.
"do you think these skilz will make you a better designer?"
hell yeah! they make me a faster, more productive designer who is able to output his work fast to colleagues and consultant, a designer who is able to rationalize any form he might dream of, and get it built.
dont fool yourselves, if corbes, mies, flw and bernini had computers, they would have used the shit out of them.
next time you're in the office, try and turn on that funny looking machine, you might be surprised how useful it can be.
treekilla, naw not envious, just do it for me, that's why i don't sell it too hard, but i do like to use the tools so i don't have to ask or pay someone to do it, although i will in the future when the cash comes rolling. i like the pen and pencil, and while i have not built a physical model in a while, it's a tool i'd much rather use. the software is just for quick visualizations and i try not to spend any time on rendering, why, who cares what the rendered model looks like.
i think one or two programs is enough, i don't need to learn a shit load of software, just a couple of effective ones. it's funny even when i dick around with viz or any software for that matter, i don't ever want to master it for fear of becoming the goto guy in an office, and that my friends sucks to high heaven.
sometimes i wish Y2K really did pan out and we all suffered with our hands and writing tools...
"i don't ever want to master it for fear of becoming the goto guy in an office"
"i secretly use viz and am learning rhino on my own and don't want to tell my employer that i know those tools"
This negative attitude to CAD is common amongst my colleagues.
The more you know the less you wish your managers to know you know less they get you to practice what you know, then everybody knows you know and your life ceases to become the easy ride you’ve blagged thus far in your career.
bots i think you'd agree that there are things that we know that become a crutch for others that do not know. i prefer not to become a commodity for others because they are too lazy to learn it themselves. i have a tremendous wealth of knowledge when it comes to autocad, so i speak from experience and that's why i keep my interests in rhino and viz on the DL...
uhh...yeah, that works in theory, but when your boss anoints you the guy to goto for problems, and manuals don't solve the problem and people tend to forget the other sources you become the office trouble shooter...come on people we work in offices on teams or am i the only one?
tell me about it, the place i'm at at the moment is full of people who cant even open a new windonw in their browser (true story). i still try to trade info, thedy have more building experience than me. when the trade off will be complete, i shall move on, or at least try to. ideally, one should always work in a challenging environment where it can learn as well as teach others.
holy moses...the oooollllld sketchup/rhino thread. Honestly, this is like comparing Rocky 1 and Rocky 4. Both have similar stories and you get excited at the montages. There is another thread called "best modeling programs" that runs the gamut on this also.
soup, I think all valid points made, sans the one about the pencil/paper return to glory. maybe we should all go back to drafting with quills. Ignore the computer and it will go away, certainly, just like the beta cassette. It's a fad, really. And don't learn software because it changes too quickly? Hey, don't learn to drive because pretty soon we'll all be flying hovercrafts like the jetsons. Good idea.
All sarcasm aside, I know both of these programs well and use them in equal parts so I am offering one person's opinion. Don't go in with your point being to denounce sketchup. It has proven time and time again to be an effective tool, and you'll end up looking biased because you know rhino better. These are different tools with different expectancies, and goals, so to judge one (sketchup) on criteria that it was never meant to be judged on is pointless. People run into trouble when they try to get a rhino-like output from a b-rep modeler to no avail, consequently, they relegate it to the "suck" pile with their WHAM! cassettes and "dancing with the stars." Don't do that. There is no end all be all program. If a neurosurgeon tried to do brain surgery with only a scalpel I don't think he would be that successful. Both of these programs are great for front end design, and they trump triforma and revit in these areas in terms of fluidity + speed : cost + output ratio. They lag obviously in the rear end design portion (pun intended).
If you want specifics of what rhino can do there are two biggies: complex scripting (although sketchup has incorporated ruby scripting which is not nearly as fun or complex as rhino vbscript) and nurbs modeling. Both use faces, edges, points, layers, viewpoints, and have a dynamic GUI. Neither have an editable parametric history like maya. I also appreciate that rhino automates complex, time consuming commands (contouring, curve generation from profiles, etc.), but I also love that sketchup doesn't do that, because sometimes, you need to get your hands dirty. Rhino essentially adds a whole other menu for surfacing and curve manipulation, and adds command line capability. Albeit there is a whole lot of shit in that menu, but still thats the nuts of it. I honestly literally go back and forth between the two simply because I feel more control in sketchup over plane geometry, likewise in rhino with complex geometry. Rhino has radiosity in flamingo, sketchup can do a shadow study in realtime and output a jpeg in 10 seconds.
IMHO, propose rhino as a missing puzzle piece rather than a replacement either/or scenario, because I definitely think you need it. It is a fantastic program - the complexity it can produce I think scares some people. I had to sell it to my current team as well. I also had to sell sketchup funny enough. Do yourself a favor and sit down with sketchup for another week and get good at it. You have enough 3d experience it sounds like and it won't take you long. You'll find a use for it, I guarantee. If you want email me and I can give you examples of rhino work and sketchup work in one model.
Reasons why Rhino Kicks SketchUps Ass
that last comment was directed at bigness' last comment.
i have to agree with allcaps. whatever they buy, wherever you go, go parametric in you spare time too.
"a lack of website does not necessarily mean what you say.
try finding a gehry partners website that publishes work."
http://www.gehrytechnologies.com/index.html
my only pont was that someone who isnt really concerned with technology in a more basic form probably is not too concerned with the complexities of rhino...imho.
and come on...Herzog & de Mueron comparison...you think they are discussing the merits of rhino vs. sketchup in their shop?..ahh, who knows...but by default they have plenty of work on the web...you get to a certain 'stardom' in any field and your advertising is done for you.
architecture is a commercial endeavor...its far from free.
umm, that's gehry technologies, but good effort.
i know catia, i know digital project, i am familar with parametrics.
but i just want a freekin design tool. not a 3d document.
my point was HE does not have to advertise...yet companies he is a partner in do...it is a needed, unless of course you're Brad Pitt.
i suppose i wanted to point out that there can be unexpected reasons why a firm wouldn't want to advertise. its not as simple as you proposed.
no, seriously soup, whattthefuck are you doing in that place?
you know:
rhino
catia
max
maya
dp
and you're in a firm that uses sketchup?
i know cad does not say it all, but oma is looking for an IT manager...
my point has been made
oma sounds good, but "starchitecture" is not so great either.
bigness...are you seriously judging a firm by its consideration of sketchup? Get real...its not for fancy rendering but its a pretty handy tool. I know firms, and have worked at a few, that successfully use many of those programs.
i agree jason. not having a site these days [starchitects aside] as other implications. i met with a firm a few months ago. they are not well known, but do rather nice work in seattle. they have no web site. they told me that five years ago, they used to get a couple dozen resumes a month. now they get a dozen a year. why? students just out of school, use the internet to see the work of a firm they are applying to. no site dissuades them from sending a resume. why would they send one if they don't know what they are getting into?
sketchup rocks!
Bigness - 'to be honest, if you were trained in high end software it probably means you were producing somewhat interesting Architecture, are you sure that where you are now is the right place for you?'
Total bollox. You will be challenging histyory next. I guess that somewhat interesting Architecture has only been produces since we stared using computers for Practice in the 70's?
... and this image, is it architecture? Looks more like bloody phlem coughed up by someone with a nasty case of lung cancer.
yeah, ok, whatever.
funnily enough i doubt either zumpthor, hadid, h&dm, oma, som, foster or piano use sketchup.
of course it's not the only paramenter by which you judge a firm. for fuck's sake, get off your simplicity high horses and listen for a minute.
if someone has taken the time to learn a certain type of software, MAYBE it's because he has ways of using it in his work.and maybe if someone learn catia or GC he is interested in building more complex forms of Architecture, right?
if a firm is using sketchup as their only means of 3d development, MAYBE they are concerned with a much lower level of complexity than the person mentioned above. and that person might get bored.
what I judge interesting is personal, right? i'm not gonna challange history, you stuck up people. I can guess that someone who learns maya maybe wants to do stuff beyond louis barragan.
the xerofitarch image...yeah, it's architecture. it has been built, used and inhabited. just because it doesnt respond to your "right angles and some nice marble i can lick" standards...guess what was said by the neoclassical establishment when modernism was born? it's not Architecture...talk about knowing your history. Anyway, this is drifting off topic. all i'm saying is that maybe it's beyond sketchup and rhino, it's about working where you can be fulfilled.
i secretly use viz and am learning rhino on my own and don't want to tell my employer that i know those tools, why? because i don't want to be monkey and spend my days toiling in a sweatshop environment, i want to be an architect and build.
The argument that history proves that you don't need sophisticated software is not fully reasoned. Many historically relevant buildings are revered because their architects implemented a new building method or technology that was a breakthrough for that time. The parthenon, the pantheon, gothic cathedrals, all the way up to the pompideu center, the ricola factory and bilbao, are just a few examples. Just because plenty of buildings were built without the use of computers, does not mean that we should continue those methods. To further the practice of architecture, you must push the envelope, explore new methods and experiment with every single tool that is available to you.
That is how history is made.
history is not made by software, but by creative talent. Ignore all 3d software and just use paper + pen(cil).
The part of architecture that is the most rapidly changing (and therefore the most prone to become obsolete) is the computer software.
Am I a better designer if I can use gee-whiz technology- NO. learn the fundimentals of how to build something and create places- then just learn the least number of commands in whatever the software du jour is.
I've learned formZ, maya, viz, rhino, sketchup and lots of other crap that I never have had to use on the job. Maybe if you are fresh out of school with no other valuable skilz, then software is your game- but that doesn't make you a good architect or help finish IDP.
Bilboa would have been built without catia- all FOG did was crumple up some cardboard. He could have made a better building if he didn't have catia as a crutch to deal with the lazy geometries that he glued together and called a building.
beta- you have too much experience to be shoehorned into a monkey suit. So why are you learning these programs?
are you envious of the greenhorns that only can relate to the computer?
do you think these skilz will make you a better designer?
Nobody in Mpls seems to be wrapped up in the my software is bigger then your software pissing game, so what is your motivation?
If you want to go back to grad school, don't worry about learning any software, it will all change before you enroll and then you'll have plenty of time to pick up the latest and greatest as part of your tuition....
guys, seriously, all this "go back to paper and pencil" is the stupidest argument i have ever heard. yeah, lets forget technology and go back to the stone age. damn people, then u wonder why we're considered a useless profession.
"do you think these skilz will make you a better designer?"
hell yeah! they make me a faster, more productive designer who is able to output his work fast to colleagues and consultant, a designer who is able to rationalize any form he might dream of, and get it built.
dont fool yourselves, if corbes, mies, flw and bernini had computers, they would have used the shit out of them.
next time you're in the office, try and turn on that funny looking machine, you might be surprised how useful it can be.
sketchup model to 3D Studio Max 8 using sketchup layers, max materials, and lighting...this was a "quicker" rendering than usual.
treekilla, naw not envious, just do it for me, that's why i don't sell it too hard, but i do like to use the tools so i don't have to ask or pay someone to do it, although i will in the future when the cash comes rolling. i like the pen and pencil, and while i have not built a physical model in a while, it's a tool i'd much rather use. the software is just for quick visualizations and i try not to spend any time on rendering, why, who cares what the rendered model looks like.
i think one or two programs is enough, i don't need to learn a shit load of software, just a couple of effective ones. it's funny even when i dick around with viz or any software for that matter, i don't ever want to master it for fear of becoming the goto guy in an office, and that my friends sucks to high heaven.
sometimes i wish Y2K really did pan out and we all suffered with our hands and writing tools...
Bigness, I think I love you.
"i don't ever want to master it for fear of becoming the goto guy in an office"
"i secretly use viz and am learning rhino on my own and don't want to tell my employer that i know those tools"
This negative attitude to CAD is common amongst my colleagues.
The more you know the less you wish your managers to know you know less they get you to practice what you know, then everybody knows you know and your life ceases to become the easy ride you’ve blagged thus far in your career.
Anti intellectual?
bots, i think i love you.
bots i think you'd agree that there are things that we know that become a crutch for others that do not know. i prefer not to become a commodity for others because they are too lazy to learn it themselves. i have a tremendous wealth of knowledge when it comes to autocad, so i speak from experience and that's why i keep my interests in rhino and viz on the DL...
when someone asks for advice, point them to the nearest guide/website/tutorial. the third time you do this, they will stop asking.
uhh...yeah, that works in theory, but when your boss anoints you the guy to goto for problems, and manuals don't solve the problem and people tend to forget the other sources you become the office trouble shooter...come on people we work in offices on teams or am i the only one?
tell me about it, the place i'm at at the moment is full of people who cant even open a new windonw in their browser (true story). i still try to trade info, thedy have more building experience than me. when the trade off will be complete, i shall move on, or at least try to. ideally, one should always work in a challenging environment where it can learn as well as teach others.
good points. i was a crutch, now I'm of the "get off your f**kin arse and read the CAD manual / tutorial / QA you lazy wanker" school of thought.
I don't advertise my thoughts, just act silently.
betadinesutures - I was so that guy, so not worth it.
to be honest, if your firm isn't doing any complex curves, then there is no reason for you to have rhino at all.
since you only draw with one hand, there is no reason for you to have two at all.
holy moses...the oooollllld sketchup/rhino thread. Honestly, this is like comparing Rocky 1 and Rocky 4. Both have similar stories and you get excited at the montages. There is another thread called "best modeling programs" that runs the gamut on this also.
soup, I think all valid points made, sans the one about the pencil/paper return to glory. maybe we should all go back to drafting with quills. Ignore the computer and it will go away, certainly, just like the beta cassette. It's a fad, really. And don't learn software because it changes too quickly? Hey, don't learn to drive because pretty soon we'll all be flying hovercrafts like the jetsons. Good idea.
All sarcasm aside, I know both of these programs well and use them in equal parts so I am offering one person's opinion. Don't go in with your point being to denounce sketchup. It has proven time and time again to be an effective tool, and you'll end up looking biased because you know rhino better. These are different tools with different expectancies, and goals, so to judge one (sketchup) on criteria that it was never meant to be judged on is pointless. People run into trouble when they try to get a rhino-like output from a b-rep modeler to no avail, consequently, they relegate it to the "suck" pile with their WHAM! cassettes and "dancing with the stars." Don't do that. There is no end all be all program. If a neurosurgeon tried to do brain surgery with only a scalpel I don't think he would be that successful. Both of these programs are great for front end design, and they trump triforma and revit in these areas in terms of fluidity + speed : cost + output ratio. They lag obviously in the rear end design portion (pun intended).
If you want specifics of what rhino can do there are two biggies: complex scripting (although sketchup has incorporated ruby scripting which is not nearly as fun or complex as rhino vbscript) and nurbs modeling. Both use faces, edges, points, layers, viewpoints, and have a dynamic GUI. Neither have an editable parametric history like maya. I also appreciate that rhino automates complex, time consuming commands (contouring, curve generation from profiles, etc.), but I also love that sketchup doesn't do that, because sometimes, you need to get your hands dirty. Rhino essentially adds a whole other menu for surfacing and curve manipulation, and adds command line capability. Albeit there is a whole lot of shit in that menu, but still thats the nuts of it. I honestly literally go back and forth between the two simply because I feel more control in sketchup over plane geometry, likewise in rhino with complex geometry. Rhino has radiosity in flamingo, sketchup can do a shadow study in realtime and output a jpeg in 10 seconds.
IMHO, propose rhino as a missing puzzle piece rather than a replacement either/or scenario, because I definitely think you need it. It is a fantastic program - the complexity it can produce I think scares some people. I had to sell it to my current team as well. I also had to sell sketchup funny enough. Do yourself a favor and sit down with sketchup for another week and get good at it. You have enough 3d experience it sounds like and it won't take you long. You'll find a use for it, I guarantee. If you want email me and I can give you examples of rhino work and sketchup work in one model.
Hope this helps...
I'm kinda buzzed and it's all because....
if a rhino got in a fight with a sketch i think the rhino would win
Thanks Surry, I appreciate advice from someone who works in both rhino and sketchup. You have a lot of good things to say.
bigness:
"since you only draw with one hand, there is no reason for you to have two at all."
You crack me up!
great post surry
which would chuck norris use?
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