today: no client interaction. yesterday: about 6 hrs. so i'd do it by week, if i were you. and i'd say it's 25-35% of my week.

sometimes like it. sometimes don't.

definitely properly trained, but through being in it - in the work environment.

client interaction is one of the most impt parts of growing into a position of leadership in your role as an architect. design, drawing, writing specs, etc are only impt if you can bring the work in the door and keep the client happy through clear and timely communication. it ends up being very much a social commitment as well as a professional one. for better or worse, you can find yourself backing into the role of confidant, marriage counselor, financial advisor, the person to clarify their institution or business' mission > all kinds of roles for which we aren't trained but through which we still try to build trust.

great words steven! love your honesty!

i feel as though your communication with your clients could possibly be the most important part of your practice. It is hard to produce your client's perfect environment if you do not know what that is.

do you feel as though there could be a role within firms for an individual to solely communicate with clients and act as the mediator/facilitator between the two?

Agree totally with everything Steven just said (I have to do that from now on, or else he'll make me cry....kidding!).

One of the major roles of the internship process is to allow interns to learn by example. I learned how to interract with clients 99% on the job - the other 1% was learning a few presentation skills from critiques in school. Interns, if you are not getting time with your bosses, attending meetings with them and watching the process, taking notes for meeting minutes, etc., then you need to ask them to let you do it.

For myself: typically I spend about 8 hours/week physically meeting with clients, but I'd say 40% of my time overall is spent emailing and talking on the phone with them I do high end residential which requires a lot of hand-holding. Thankfully I really enjoy this part of the job, as I consider every project a collaboration, and feel better rseults in this area of design come from lots of time listening to the clients.

in my office, that role is played by the #2 guy: his ENTIRE job is to hustle work and keep people happy. he lives in his car most of the time, so i'm not sure how great a job this is.

thanks steven..

so.. the number 2 guy.. is he a trained architect?

yep. he's actually an older architect who was hired away from a much larger firm by HIS former intern, my boss. he's been around forever, knows everybody, etc

what a valuable individual! it just shows the extreme value of experience!

Interacting with clients keeps you grounded in a project. Expectations are important to understand as is the fee for the project. The candy money guy doesn't get the same treatment as the guy who pays for your vacation to another part of the world.

My experience is very similar to LB's. I'd say about 35% of my time per week is spent in direct or indirect client contact. Probably about 6 hours face/phone time and another 2-3 hours emailing time. I also work in residential architecture, and it absolutely requires more client contact than in other areas of arch. I've worked in.

I generally enjoy it, although it is also highly stressful. Probably the most stressful aspect of my job, aside from seeking payment from clients who are slow to pay. Which also falls under client contact. Also the enjoyment clearly varies from client to client...

My employers have trained me EXTREMELY well. They have spent a lot of time coaching me and sharing tips with me and pointing me towards good books they've read that helped them in this area.

I don't really know that it's something that is possible to cover in school. Actually, I take that back: a course on how to read people's motivation and desires, when they're not communicating well, and how to react to different common client situations (basically a targeted psych course) would have been both fun and vastly rewarding in both life and career.

thanks myriam,
you really touched on a few interesting points. First and most importantly would be that of being 'client centered'. As in putting aside your own thoughts and beliefs in order to understand your clients dreams and aspirations (acting unbaisedly). I have just started to apply to architecture schools after finishing my degree and practicing as a health professional, and these are the sort of skills I believe are somwhat lacking within the firms. Do you see a specific client repsentative/contacter/service position being useful in a large firm? I feel as though it would increase client satisfaction (because they would get the exact product/ environment they wanted) and also increase effficieny of the firm (thus increase amount of projects they may take on.. thus more $). sorry for the rant.. comments?

it varies week to week for me, but my average is something similar to steven's >> 25-35%. i've said it before here and it's worth saying again. forming good relationships with your clients and your vendor's is critical to you doing successful work. you can not do without them. never take them for granted.

i second myriam's comments on putting you own thoughts aside to understand your client's dreams. i've often said that my clients are the ones that bring richness to my work.

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jonathan. you are new to archinect. just want to let you know that all the responses you have gotten on this post are from the good advice all-stars of archinect.

take heed.

in addition to what has been already said, i'd say, each client have their unique personality. as an architect you have to deal with different client types but each of those clients unbeknownst to eachother, deals with the same personality; you.
so, this makes me think that we have to spend some time honing our own persona and have some references and standarts to fall back to when the things get out of hand or just to get the project going.

i believe, train and carry on myself on business honesty and problem solving and expect similar in return. i have to set these rules out with each client so a trustworthy relationship can be established. building trust, as steven pointed out, is the most important threshold.
i've been pretty lucky to get clients that are people persons. the good client is the one who gets the best out of you under the circumstances.

you can design all you want,but you have to have somebody buying it. i wish i was more serious about this stuff before.

i don't do extra social stuff with my clients except occasional lunches. i'd like to encourage/plant sense of humor in my meetings and point out bullshit before it haunts the project.

it is not always perfect world though.

all in all, architect client relationship is something needs constant attention during and thereafter the project. and it is one of the aspects of this trade that is usually learned on the field and it is fundemantal for practicing architecture.

if you are not working for yourself, you have to build that trust with your bosses first before they let you deal with the clients.

jonathan, you ask a very astute and brilliant question.

I just got home from a long week filled with more coordination and meetings than I bargained for, so my thoughts are incoherent right now. I'll try to get back to this thread later, though.

Our client wants to meet at least once per week and has a tendancy to wander off-topic, which leads to very long meetings (the longest was supposed to be a 3-hour morning meeting that lasted 7 hours with no break for lunch!) I know, I know - we need to keep the client focused but we all find it really difficult.


Typical week:
20% = Client meetings
20% = Client coordination / emails / phone calls / research
25% = Consultant coordination
35% = Time for drawing (never enough time!)

thanks dot..

heed taken!

DCA thank you very much for the comments...

I can appreciate your fatigue! I just want to bounce an idea off you while you are incoherent.. I know when I am tired I usually give a 100% honest opinion...

Do you think it would be wise for me to attempt to create a position for myself in the architecture/design/development world acting as a consultant/contact/mediator/facilitator between clients and architects?
Case scenario: (of course idea.. haha)
A young Dr. and his new wife come to your firm and say they want to build a house. He has just started to work and does not have a ton of money but still wants to create something special for him, his wife, and his future family.
My specific roles could go something like this...
1) Meet and perform an initial interview with the client (AND his wife). Prompting them to share their wishes for the environment as well as getting them to think long term (i.e family increase, future physical changes, possibility for income property, what their hobbies and interests are... in general totally breaking the client, their lives, their interests, beliefs.. everything!)
2) Compile the information/data recieved from the interview into a usable format for the architect.
3) Architect looks over data, meets with me, asks questions, I find answers from client, info is passed back and forth.
4) As plans and price points start to be created I meet with the client and we review and prioritize (i.e. putting money where they deem most important and maybe even leaving building blocks for future projects when more $$ is around).
5) Schedule 'group' meetings throughout the whole process.

End result.. more time for you to do what you were educated to do (and do best!).. design. More time = more clients (or a good tan). More clients = more money. Most importantly this will increase efficiency and customer satisfaction.

I know there is a lot there to take in.. but please take your time.. I would love/ openly take any comments you and anyone may have.

Thanks again!

Jonathan

whoa, didn't see that coming. sorry jonathan, no intermediary can replace face time with the client. for me, relationships with my clients are just as important as the work that i do for them. i don't an agent. i'll let others weigh in though.

Ack! No way!! You can't practice architecture if you don't understand people--if you don't communicate directly with the people for whom you are designing. You cannot seperate the two. No way! That's the lifeblood of architecture--as annoying as they can be, clients are integral to the design process itself. Removing them from the picture wouldn't let you design better, it would make you design worse. And you'd hate it. It would be horrible to design for a filtered list of wants and needs, and to miss all the life and personality that went into the statements. Besides, 99% of the time, only the architect herself will know which questions to ask the client and how to phrase things, etc.

If you are interested in the human side of architecture, go to design school and become an architect. You won't be disappointed. We design buildings... for PEOPLE. A lot of psychology goes into it.

**of course we don't always design specifically for people--but there is always a human component. buildings, space planning, roads, horse stables--all these things still fit into a human civilization and still have a human client. this fact is a source of frustration, yes, but also fun--it's the stuff of life...

truth, myriam.

sounds like you want to be a middleman, jonathan. if that's the case, architecture is the wrong discipline for which to provide that service. the profit margin is nearly non-existent so adding layers of consultants is something we try to avoid wherever possible. as e said, we don't need agents.

your house for a doctor is a great example. more than likely, when i was practicing on my own, i would have spent more hours than i billed on that project, going into the red on paper, just to make the house a project of which i could be proud and which would please the couple. i would have paid any consultants, if i needed them, on an hourly basis rather than a % like in a commercial/institutional project. i would have used those consultants as little as possible. and, like myriam said above, if i didn't have dinner with them, get to know them, spend time absorbing their lives personally, the project would probably not be successful anyway.

but, as a hypothetical, if you were to pursue this idea: it would be hard for a young person entering the field to be at all valuable. what you'd need to be offering the firm, more than your interpersonal skills specifically related to projects/clients already in the office, is a network of potential clients across a broad swath of your community - even beyond your community. if you're not knowledgeable about the issues of architecture, if you don't have relationships with contractors and other players in the construction industry, and if you aren't involved deeply in your community, i'm not sure how you'd serve this purpose.

jonathon, what you propose is a construction management, advisor. i would have to agree with those against this track, you'd like to believe that you represent the client's interest, but when you step outside the scenario one can see that your position becomes the one that the architect must deal with and that becomes the defacto client position. i have in the past six years perhaps dealt with the client about .05% of the time, so my experience comes from what i have observed.

in terms of dealing with the client though i would like to keep it to a minimum, because they can get off track or just gum up the works. i always like the movie "Unzipped" about Isaac Mizrahi. he had Svengali like president of his company that dealt with day to day and the business of the brand and it let Isaac deal with design, that is what i want in life.

jonathan: Yes, beta's statements about construction management are true. However, there is some nuance to owner's representation that you may find fulfilling. Typically, the architect alone acts as the owner's rep for smaller projects like you described. However, for larger projects, the owner's rep is sometimes called the "development manager" or "program manager" - someone who is hired by the client (usually a large institution or company) to act on its behalf to manage the planning, design, and construction of the project. Like beta said, a lot of trust and responsibility is bestowed upon this intermediary, and the role requires much experience.

Steven brought up a good point about profit margins on small jobs, and I agree that an intermediary probably would not be financially feasible. However, on large projects, there is a larger margin to hire a program manager.

If you're interested in larger scale projects, jonathan, I could talk for days about what it's like to be a program manager - I worked on that side of the table for three years and would be happy to share my experiences. (Caution: I'm back on the architecture side now, so I might be a little biased... :) )


Also, I do believe that architect-client interaction is essential to a good project. As demanding as my current schedule is, I would probably be even more stressed if I had to go through an intermediary to get my client questions answered. (But it could be attractive for someone else to sit through the 7 hour meetings and filter-out the non-important information...)

hey all,
your responses have been great! I feel as though I may have touched on a 'sensitive' topic for some of you.
Please do not get me wrong.. I am going to architecture school.. and I will become an architect.. see you in the field in a couple of years. And more importantly it is by no means my intension to create barriers between the client and the architect. Please believe me when I say I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF COMMUNICATION.. yes i do! haha.
I have been working with a smaller firm here and everything is running perfectly. Clients are happier, architects are happier, and we are taking on more projects. I guess I am not as articulate as I thought when it comes to actually describing what I do. Today my role is a consultant and I cannot wait until I become a architect and no longer a consultant. But I really do love what I am doing right now and there really is a place for it in your profession.
I do not agree with the 'having dinner = knowing the clients' scenario. Yes, you do get to know them a little more.. but by no means do you know them on all levels of their lives (physical, mental, social, spiritual. This info and knowledge of the client has such a high value in order to create the perfect environment.. and we all know this. I do believe that with EXPERIENCE you can become quite good at this. But that experience may have also created bad habits.

Lets keep this discussion going please.. it is so interesting.

thanks again all!

hey DCA,
thanks for the reply!
I may very well contact you for some project manager experiences. How does one go about getting thoes type contracts? Experience or education? Maybe the role I am filling right now would fit better on the client side of large scale projects? Meeting with you (the architect) and bringing all of that info back to the table and simplifying it for the client and then acting on thier behalf to ask all the questions and concerns they may have.. that works for me! Comments?

thanks again!

Jonathan:

I think there are jobs like that, but they're usually officially representing the client rather than representing the architect, but maybe unofficially they can do a bit of both... There are companies, project management types that specialize in this... I've seen at least a couple types of clients that need this: 1. very wealthy clients that are way too busy to spend alot of in depth time on the project but want to be able to make decisions indirectly; 2. clients that are large, have many projects on the table, either a big developer or an institution that builds alot and has alot of different projects going at the same time so needs staff to deal with them... I've seen another case of a project manager on the client side, for a library... They also need to deal with the contractors, and consultants, need to know the biz and what they are talking about at a very in depth level similar to the architect in terms of being a PM...

If that's what you're interested in and what you're good at, then I say go for it. I wonder how the salary of a client rep / PM compares to that of an architectural PM?

if we are speaking of sfh, your position as described seems like an extra cook in the kitchen and i seriously doubt you can facilitate a budget or anything like that without the experience of the architect.
i know we are talking theoratical here but it is true that those areas are covered in architect's work.
i don't believe you are freeing the architect from some work and letting them have more time to do what they are trained to do. all that stuff is included in architect's work.
if the chain is broken between architect and the client, well, simply, all the books have to re written.

I guess I could see you being an client's rep on the client's side (as brink and DCA mentioned) but I couldn't see a place for it on the architect's side. Client's (or owner's rep) is a legitimate position and you could certainly do it--but I bet after going thru arch school you'd be bored to tears. You'd have to spend all day hearing what people want and then not get to do the design that satisfies them. If you're not interested in the design side, then you should consider going to business school or contractor management or something where you would learn about the building process enough to be a middle-man on the client's end. If you want to learn how to design then you will find a place for your desire to communicate within architecture itself--part of architecture is communication.

Very interesting thread.

There are a lot of days I feel I have become the client facilitator and delegate the concepts discussed in the meetings to the PA / PM. We try and bring the person working on the project to the client meeting so they hear the information first hand.

I know I am good at following the nonverbal communication from the clients and am readily able to pick up what they mean and not what they say. There are times when the client will call to talk to me in order to better translate their ideas to the PA. It is a bit awkward but at time necessary.

This is an important skill that I don’t know if it is trainable. If you don’t have it you might need someone to work alongside with you.

As an aside, I have seen residential contractor(s) have this type of facilitator on staff. They mainly get the project rolling and then step out of the way. They manage the client for you – set up meetings, take meeting notes, call to check up on the progress of the work as well as make sure you get paid and are kept happy.

For us it is very helpful for the bread and butter projects that we do. It is a win-win.

The contractor spends the additional time educating the client, keeps them close to their vest and being actively involved in the project giving them the leg up in getting the bid to construct the project.

The homeowner feels that they are receiving an architectural experience at a price that they can afford.

For us it we are able to put JR staff on the project allowing them to work a with the repeat contractor client thereby gaining them valuable client contact skills, freeing the PA’s up for the larger projects and keep cash flow coming in.

Scary enough we make more profit from these “limited service contracts” than the large commercial jobs.

also each additional person costs more.
say i am the architect for jones' house. dr. jones.
they tell me they need 2 bedrooms and a living room with open kitchen and walk in closet etc...if somebody is going to have a custom made house with an architect, they also should be asked to sit down and write a one or two page program or a wish list.
simple? yeah. the most house 'programs' are like that.

but of course there are other ones, 15000sq ft + homes, for the leaders of industry, which program tells you that the house kitchen have to have exactly 132" between the first shelf of the refrigerator to second shelf of wine rack (?). like in another area, architect has to make sure mr and mrs should have exactly 89.3" between their individual toilet seats. sure, there is a need for a project maneger. because those projects are very similar to building/designing corporate hq's. and the owner can't be bothered by little details and there are many people writing memo's to each other for the tile arrangement and how clients like to see more drawings to make a decision on the design concept etc. and each of those memo shufflers are getting handsome paychecks at the end of each pay period. and boasting around that they resolved the baseboard profile issue after exhousting attempts and trials and personal sacrifices. "i've done it,
i got the custom towel bar resolved". "bravo man, here is your bi weekly paycheck of 10k. good job".

architecture. what a fuckin' movie...

note; i am wearing a dark t-shirt today to match my thoughts...

132"?? - no wonder that bastard fired me! at least i got the toilets seats right or more or less within an inch or 2.

gee TED, when you gonna give it up and serve?

To supplement bRink's third example of a client who needs a PM - the library in this example - ...basically, library people know how to run great libraries, but they probably know very little about design and construction. Thus, they need someone who has worked on a number of other libraries to educate them on the trends, benchmarks, and best practices for getting a great library built. A good PM will also help the library people to envision their ideal library, develop a good program - as others have spoken about on this thread - and determine whether a new project is feasible within the community demand and budget constraints. All of this typically occurs before an architect is brought on-board.

Also, to answer your question, jonathan, about experience vs. education - it definitely takes more experience and confidence than education to be a great PM (at least that's what I've seen in my experience). A client will hire an experienced person who has seen and solved lots of problems. Confidence not only comes from experience, but it also takes a fearless personality to speak with authority without sounding arrogant. Furthermore, a client will want to hire "the expert", and if you really want to fill the role, you need to do as much as you can to gain the expertise that will make you marketable. (This could seem overwhelming to someone who is still in school, but it's possible to intern with a PM firm to get a taste of what their world is really like.)

As far as salaries are concerned, I think the base salaries of architecture PM's and owner's rep PM's are generally comparable. However, an architect delivers documents, which generally take a given amount of time to produce regardless of the skill of the project team (you can debate me on this, but my point is that manpower = money). A good owner's rep PM sells his/her expertise, knowledge, and ability to solve problems; if a project has few problems, everyone is happy, AND the PM will get paid the same amount but may have time to work on other projects and generate more revenue at the same time.

A final, random thought: being a PM often takes ice-water-in-the-veins. Are you up for that?

Hey DCA,

i really appriciate your comments.. they are certainly useful. What are some examples of 'PM firms' that you know of.. I would love to check out that world. I feel that in order to be a successful PM I would want to finish arch school and get some experience under my belt first.. agree? Perfection is something you cannot rush.. and I am quite willing to put in the time.
myriam.. the only reason I am taking architecture is to fulfill my true passion for design. This is just a sub-topis which I find interesting.. as I think many do. I think that my knowledge of the human body and mind as well as social constructs will be a great asset to the world of design.. agree? I mean environment and products are developed for human use.. so who better to design these environments and products? Make sense?

I really want to thank all of you for interacting with me... it really is a pleasure! I feel quite lucky to have this chance to brainstorm with you all!


PS- My vains are as cold as ice!

jonathan,

There is no need to decide the fate of your career while still in school. Selfishly, for the profession of architecture, I hope that you have a moment of epiphany while in school when you realize that you want to and can be a great designer.

As for firms that do facility planning, program management, project management, etc... try a Google search with combinations of these terms (using plurals, 'ing's, etc)

thanks DCA,

i sometimes get so caught up in my future that i forget about the present. I am so excited to be given the opportunity to design great things that will make peoples lives easier and more enjoyable!

thanks again for telling me about the roles of a pm.. do many firms offer thoes services as well as traditional architecture/design services? It would kind of make sense to me if a one-stop-shop was created to better serve the customer.

today: 1 hour
yesterday: 4.5 hours

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Oook.

Monkey needs new job.

hey antipod.. interesting.. what does oook mean and who is the monkey. ha.