if money is of any concern to you, you might want to check out the cost of attendance and financial aid available for int. students, or lack thereof. only a few schools offer fin. aid to non-us citizens (princeton, yale, mit, risd, upenn, as far as i know).

if you're an M.Arch II, this is less important. but if you're in for 3+ yrs of school, you might want to give it a thought before you start getting the bills in the mail.

yes, I'd be doing the 3+ years M.Arch and I'm looking into financial aid/cost of each school. It seems the cheaper schools (non Ivy/state) don't offer financial aid for int. students but the Ivys do?
I was only looking into Columbia but I might check out the others if they were able to give me a better deal in the end...

ok. how about a show of hands... non US people - can you tell me where you are from, where you went to school, and where you are working now in the US?

to tell you the truth I think a degree from an Ivy is a tad bit more respected outside the U.S. which is strange because the Ivies are more flexible with international students when it comes to admission. I kinda get the impression that those who don't give financial aid to non-US students will take just about anybody who shows up with a portofolio and an application as long as they are willing to pay the tuition fees. But I am only judging from people I know and have seen their work. Some of them had very impressive portofolios and others...well...not really.regardless of that though they had to work really hard during the course so what I would consider first when applying is whether I am ready to forget what life outside school is during my MArch. Columbia has a great program in my opinion but does not provide financial aid. also it is in nyc which is fantastic but expensive. a degree form gsapp should open some doors for job in a good (whatever this means) firm in nyc but then again you probably won't get paid more than a non-ivy employee and i said before nyc is expensive. so it all comes down to money as dmc said. now if money is not an issue then consider the AA's 2-year diploma course in london which is as good, respected and hard work as a 3-year MArch and it will be easier for you to become a registered architect in your country if you are european. oh, and london is absolutely fantastic although as expensive as new york. plus you can take the train and be in paris in about 3 hours! or a really cheap flight to anywhere in europe...

all that said I am still applying to columbia...

hey mar, AA's program is for student with a BA in architecture, is that right? I thought there aren't any graduate programs in England and Europe (and Australia) for people without any background in arch.... which is the main reason why I'm thinking of going to the US. I would love to live in London, and be so close to Europe. To tell the truth, I'm not too crazy about living in the US... though I do like NYC which is why I'm going to apply to Columbia.

Are you from the US mar_?

yes I believe you ought to have some kind of degree in architecture in order to apply to AA's diploma or else you will have to go back to first year or even foundation...sorry miss_j I didn't know you don't hold a BArch or something.is your degree in a relevant field like arts or even art history?because then you could also consider RCA, the royal college of art that is.it is a great artsy school, in a fantastic location and has close links to imperial college. the course is 2 years long I think and you can go there with a degree other than architecture like fine art, interior or graphic design etc. thing is they only give a MA in architecture and not a MArch but you can still become registered in the UK or continental europe I don't know about the US though. I think David Adjaye went to RCA so it's not only the AA who produces well known architects.

parsons is new york and has an interesting program and great faculty, some of them teach in columbia and princeton, and it's really artsy too.but it is a small school and certainly not as respected or well known as an ivy although it costs as much. I think they give money to international students though. Pratt is also in nyc but I don't know much about their program.so gsapp is still the best deal if you only consider nyc and from what I've heard you might have some time to actually see what nyc is all about, whereas you won't really have much free time in london and the AA. maybe you should also consider what your real interest is.would you rather be in oma or som?mvrdv or foster?maybe just get a better job in a not well known firm?would you rather have your own private little firm in your country?

I am an international student from europe and have had secondary education in both europe and the US. I have a diploma and will be applying for the MSAAD if I manage to make the deadline, which means that I will already be a registered architect and will be doing that as an extra which is quite different from your case so I don't know if my advice is any good but...I wouldn'd consider any other school because quite frankly columbia has a wide range of studio options that deal with city and metropolis issues which is my cup of tea. and although there's the lottery thing you will still get a great studio.I mean most international students would probably go for the Steven Holl studio and not Thomas Leeser as Holl is obviously more famous, but my friend in columbia told me Leeser was fantastic in studio. plus he is young and has a promising little firm so he may as well be the next big thing and you will already have been in his class when this happens! which could also be true for any other person teaching in an non-ivy though!

what I am trying to say is chose your school based on what is more important to you. to me was program and not location really because then I would go for london obviously.I think you should go for program too and since you don't have an arch background you may get a bit confused but I am sure you will make the best choice. My advice is not to consider money too much because then this should rule out nyc altogether

mar- thanks for your lengthy reply! I just checked out RCA's website and their entrance req is: "You should have achieved a high quality first degree in architecture, interior design or a related discipline and should have at least one year’s experience working in a design office." Unfortunately I do not qualify: I completed a liberal arts degree in the US, majored in Maths (!), worked a little bit, and now studying art history/art curatorship. I'm a bit all over the place.... Plus I will have a problem with the MA degree in Australia (home).

I haven't even thought about studio options, but for thanks for the tip! I actually went to visit Pratt when i was in NY and was not impressed with their studio space. It's really old and small... Pratt - I haven't heard much about their architecture program... My friend teaches graphic design there and complain about the students all the time...

I know I'll like NYC for sure...I have friends there too but I'm also considering the west coast - Sci-arc or UCLA maybe?

True, program is perhaps more important but I was thinking that location is a big issue too because of the connections you'd make? I also want to be in a big city because having studied in a small town for 4 yrs it nearly killed me.

miss_j, I should start off by saying that I am an undergrad student, so I can't speak from a grad student perspective though I'm beginning to look at some myself. anyway, I just thought I'd mention Harvard and MIT, which it sounds like you may have already looked into. Boston's a great city, though, and I think slightly more affordable than New York, as well as being a bit more managable in size I think. where are you living now?

since you are considering the west coast I think UC berkeley is also very good. I have seen student work and it is as if not more impressive as UCLA's plus it is san fran and not la which quite frankly is shit...A west coast school should be a good deal for an australian since it gives you the impression that you are closer to home as I think the case is with europeans and the east coast.

as for rca you seem pretty fit for it because you will have more than one degree when you apply and also I think it all comes down to portofolio anyway...

gsapp it is then?

FrankLloydMike - I have to admit I'm not a fan of Boston!! I went to Bowdoin, in Brunswick Maine so I've been to Boston a few times...I dont know what it is...just don't like it too much. But I'm looking into MIT.
I'm living in Melbourne now.

mar - yes I hear UC berkeley is good too...damn I didn't realise it is in San Fran. LA is shit eh? I don't know...the weather looks good to me... yes the west coast is a bit closer to home. traveling to the east coast is a pain.
as for RCA i won't be fit for it...I don't think art history or art curatorship is a related disipline? I won't be finished next year either...only halfway... oh london...

The standard of living in London is indeed (too) expensive.. especially in the city center... So if u are not prepared to spend a lot on living cost, you'd probably end up living in the brim (just right outside) of the city center... And stay away from the east end as far away as possible cause its the pits.... Other than that, some universities in London are rather old and small as if a much needed renovation was dued eversince the late 70s.... Sorry to sound a bit biased, since i've been studying my undergraduate degree here for 3 years =P

I didn't know UCLA do provide a MArch 3+ program for applicants with a non arch degree? I am a biomaterials engineering graduate from London and i want to apply to a 3+ program (long story)... I've had friends saying that application to study in the states are tougher than in the UK... Some of the universities like UC Berkeley requires you to take the GRE and TOEFL as a prerequisite which is kind of a hassle... Apart from these two prerequisites, are universities in the states known to be at least a little bit flexible in selecting their applicants? I am actually going to apply for the 07/08 program and try to get some form of work experience at a firm within that period... preferably in the states... I would love to do my degree on the west coast since i would be able to visit japan and china.. i just love their ancient architecture :)

well every applicant's case is different. I know people who got into gsapp and had fantastic portofolios in both amount and imperssiveness of work. I also happen to know many other people who had shit portofolios at least in my opinion and stardards and still got in, I don't know what they did but I think it was probably a combination of luck, money and of course confindence otherwise they would not have applied to such a competitive and sought after program.but all these people had an architecture background.

hellbydante:
I think all US schools require you take the GRE and TOEFL as long as your native languange is not english.but maybe this doesn't apply to you since you had your undergraduate in an english speaking country

miss_j:
I also hear UC Berkeley is full of cute swimmer guys but this wouldn't be a reason one would choose to go there, would it? if you want a big city you can also consider some school in chicago, which I think is beautiful.maybe not as lively as nyc but it is safer and cheaper and other than that you get pretty much everything you'd get in nyc only chicago is an all american metropolis whereas new york is more international.but you have lived in maine for 4 years so I think you can survive just about anywhere in the states.

mar - cute swimmers ehhh? I think i'm heading to UC Berkely! heh heh...
I survived Maine but that is not to say I'd do it again. I met some wonderful people there but if I were to do undergrad again I think I'd choose a different school based on location. I never thought I'd return to the US after those 4 yrs, but NYC changed my mind. It's so 'international' that people say it's like not an American city. I love their music and art scene especially. what is making you come to the states then mar? Is the program there more suitable to you then any of the ones in London?

hellbydante: I know London is expensive and I think their weather is too gloomy, but I desperately want to live in England/Europe. As an Australian I can work there for 2 yrs I hope I can do that after I finish my degree.
most US arch school has the 3+ program for people with a previous degree in something other than architecture. TOFEL would only be a prereq for those whose first language isn't English. GRE is a prereq for pretty much most postgrad programs in the US. I hear that the score doesn't count too much towards your application....its mostly the portfolio.

I think the schools have a quota for International people. Perhaps they might be a bit more 'flexible' in a year when there are fewer international applicants.

as you said miss_j: oh london...it is very expensive but as far as living cost goes in the end you get a better deal than nyc. in london you can get very nice furnished flats for 200-250 pounds a week whereas in nyc you have to pay at least 1500 dollars a month for a shitty apartment AND get to sleep in a futon from ikea AND find someone to sell it when you move out. and the rats in manhattan!!!

I am going for program. london life is better, the bars are better, the food is getting better, the shops are the best in the world but still...I also liked the Bartlett's MArch when Peter Cook was still there but now he's retired and they have a new agenda which I am not too sure I will fit in.

AA is good but still a small school and not a real university. it's got its connections network which is impressive but Brett Steele doesn't teach anymore as he is the new dean. I really like the fact you have to work in teams throughout the course and they produce fantastic job but it is too blobby for my liking, I am not at all sure architecture is all about computers, it's a bit outdated.

so I am applying to gsapp and keeping my fingers crossed. I don't know what I'll do if I don't get accepted, don't have a plan b...

mar: hmmm yes...you can always go to london after the degree. the gsapp program is only a year for you isn't it? it wouldn't be so bad. I think in terms of food nyc might be slightly better?? cheaper and more variety i would think? Though I was in London in July this year and was impressed with the few places I went... but bloody expensive with the exchange rate.
where are you now?
you won't be applying anywhere else?
well, good luck to you!! I'll be applying to gsapp too so lets hope for the best.

miss_j, let's go to tu delft instead for m.arch. how about that?

i would love to steph. but.... i can't speak dutch! :(

Just a random thought but wouldn't you be better off if there are quotas for international student? You went to a top liberal arts college, in the US. So wouldn't they prefer you over othere international students who went to colleges that are unfamiliar to people in the US? (I mean people in academia would almost cerntainly know Bowdoin, Wesleyan or Swarthmore.) Anyone?

well even they are unfamiliar to people in the US they are still architecture schools and thereof more familiar with the subject one will be studying, architecture that is. even if some people in the US don't know those schools doesn't mean a thing anyway to those people because maybe the university you are applying to does know what you are all about. Why should they take you just because you studied sculpture at say Yale? You most probably don't know much about architecture and even if you do it doesn't mean you will be good at it. I find this very irritating. I have to some ivy's open house with my friend who goes there and there were these people who made stupid remarks and had shit done shit work and...guess what... they were people from such not very relevant schools. I personally think it is a bit degrading to put people with an architecture background in the same class with someone who does not understand that architecture is not sculpure, it's not all about the form, there has to be some kind of meaning. But it's a good that they give people an opportunity for a career change...

mar_

Thanks for you input, but I strongly disagree with you given I was talking about MArch 1, which is a first professional program and accepts students with variety of liberal arts backgrounds. And I was talking about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS specifically who would have to compete against each other if there were quotas.

What do you mean by "relevant schools" anyway? Political science majors (e.g. David Lewis of LTL), philosophy majors (Prince-Ramus),.... they all made great architects. Toshiko Mori studied sculpture/painting before switching to architecture. In your definition, are they "relevant" to architecture? I don't know about the specific person at the open house you are talking about but I am pretty sure a sculpture major Yale still has to take other liberal arts subjects to graduate and compete against other kids who did pretty well in high school. Kids learn "how to learn" in college that's what the liberal arts education is about.

Graduating from a top college in a different country is challenging, adjusting to an entirely new place. I did not factor the fact that miss_j's from an English speaking country but especially if your English is your second language going to class for them at schools like Bowdoin where almost all classes are with under 30 students is like a survival, everyday. This might be a BAD example but for a Korean student who did not grow up speaking English graduating from Amherst would be much more challenging than graduating from Seoul National University. So what I thought was admission's committee people would probably factor these into account...

I thought that students doing the MArch 1 (3 yrs) program would be put into a different studio? It seems in some schools they are put into classes with undergrads.
And this got me quite confused, which program are you applying to Mar? I just checked columbia's site and it seems they've only got the 3 yr program, unlike other schools that have 2 or 3 different options - for students with a previous degree in Arch and without. Mar, I thought you already have a degree in arch?

tsquare: so nice to hear someone speak up for liberal arts school. my degree is worth like NOTHING here. it was pretty damn hard looking for a job and having to explain to them what my degree meant. do you plan to stay in the US for grad school and then work?
if admissions are choosing between international students with similiar portfolio quality, then i would think someone like you and I would stand a better chance than someone from a random college or state uni overseas.
it must be pretty tough for you coming from korea to study at Amherst! good on you.

well, tu delft m.sci of architecture program is taught in english. besides, they put emphasis on modern architecture and they have great examples of modern architecture throughout the country. and do u know that the dutch people are more keen to give young architects a chance than other countries in the world.

and you could hop into a train and be in countries in europe in a matter of hours!

steph - I don't have a background in arch. so I won't be able to do the master program. i would really love to study/live in Europe...perhaps I can do a year of exchange. are you heading to tu delft?

miss_j: I said the MSAAD - Msc Advanced Architectural Design

tsquare: reading your post I found to be a bit...well, aggressive actually. Relax and just do what you think is best for you. Apply to wherever you want, if you get accepted fine if not...oh, well. What's the point in overanalyzing what's being posted on a thread anyway. it's just my point of view not a dogma.besides,I am not a member of any admission committee. :)

oh, miss_j I think sci-arc does the exchange thing with the AA!

mar - sorry, you wrote so much that I missed that part. and all those bloody short hands! as a newbie here I had no idea what people are referring to.
yesss, sci-arch has exchange with barlett and heaps of other schools in Europe, too! 2 or 2.5 years living in shitty LA won't be SO bad?
I don't think Columbia has an exchange program do they? :\

LA can't be that bad.. can it? I've been hearing a lot about schools from LA and Columbia in this thread... How about the programs from schools like University of Illinois, Notre Dame, Yale, Princeton etc?

hellbydante - it seems that i need to consider program, location and reputation. Yale and Princeton are big name schools.. but I haven't heard great things about either programs. Also, I don't want to apply to too many ivy schools and would like to avoid living in small towns. I'm not sure how highly regarded Uni of Illinois and Notre Dame are ? I haven't heard of them until i came to this forum.

I know Notre Dame but not much about its architecture program. University of Illinois I don't know much about either (even though I was actually living in Chicago for quite a while. shame on me!) I think Peter Eisenman has taught there so it can't be bad...Yale, well...I don't know...the location is not a plus.I have seen some student work and it lookS ok but I don't know, it doesn't seem to have a clearly defined agenda. Princeton would be my top choice if it was not for the location. it can actually prove to be a good deal living outside nyc, it's not that far away and you can save the extra money and splurge on shopping in nyc on the weekends...I think they have a very strong program though and probably the best faculty, all big names AND great teachers, but it is SO selective. well, it could not be any other way because they only take like 15-20 students each year, whereas gsapp takes around 100 or more...

I got the application package from Penn today. I think this one is a great school as well, although a bit stuck on blobs. I don't know if I am applying yet but their response to my request for the materials was so fast that made me actually appreciate the school more...Unlike Yale which still has not gotten back...Harvard was relatively fast too considering the amount of request they must get!Too bad I can't make theri deadlines kinda limits my choices, so gsapp is still my number one...

sorry to ask this but.. does the abbreviations gsapp = grad school application?

no,no! Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation-that's Columbia