So today is my last day at the small firm I've worked at for almost 3 years... now it's off to 3 years at grad school. The only advice my boss had to give me is, "There's more to life than architecture." That's it. And it started to occur to me how little he comes to work each day, and it's only getting worse. Does anyone else question your love/hate relationship with architecture, and if so, how do you cope with it?
Can anyone add any great deparing remarks from past employers?
Today is also my last day, and some coworkers photoshopped my head onto to some preppy, blue polo shirt wearing dude throwing up gang sign/party hands. So far I've received no advice, but it does warm my heart a bit to see what happens when you put a bunch of people into the same building all day and provide them with the tools they need to make fun of one another.
No departing remarks from past employers, but one of my studio professors actually gave me the same advice after a final crit. He said "Architecture can't be everything. There has to be a balance." He was right. I do my best not to bring my work home with me. My family has tocome first.
how about this... i gave my two weeks notice at my job and my boss comes back the next day and tells me that he really doesn't need me for two weeks and that i should leave at the end of the week.
shaybug, I have to say that if you boss said that, and he/she comes in late every day, there's something there. First off he/she's got it right. And second off, you don't have to commit your life to your work, and still move on up in a company.
not sure what you're really trying to get at in this thread ... is it about a perceived "lack of gratitude" by the firm when someone leaves ?
didn't they pay you while you worked there ? what sort of gratitude did you express to the firm when you got each check ? what sort of gratitude did you express to the firm when you resigned to pursue you own life ?
i'm not really attacking you here, but i've been doing this for a while and have learned that you can't have it both ways ... firm's don't exist to make your life either easy or fun (although it's really nice when both of those things do happen) ... individuals don't exist to give their entire lives and their souls to their firms ...
in my experience, this absolutely is a two-way street ... not to get all biblical on you here, but for both parties, the old saying "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" seems to have a certain resonance in this discussion.
so we are machines then? when i get paid for performing the task, there is no obligation by either party to say thank you for that bonus or thank you for staying extra to get that job done, because i got paid, and they got their pound of flesh??
what i expect is that i get treated the way i treat them and that means maximum effort - even at the cost of minimal pay - which means i go above and beyond my 9-5 and maybe the firm should too. so shady, you have every right to expect more out of humans, when so much more is demanded of us lowly worker drones...
I am getting a little upset at the lack of a pat on the back at my office. I am serious. And please refrain from feeding me any "real world" crap - I especially don't want to hear anything about pay=gratitude.
If the boss doesn't care, why should I care?
We are expected to work above and beyond the 9-to-5. Normally I am up for it, but at the moment I am feeling rather disinclined. Maybe I was treated too well at my last job.
when i quit work to go to grad school, they gave me a nice farewell party...no real advice from my boss, but there was a memorable conversation...
one of the better architects in the office asked me very quietly how i was able to get permission to quit. he had been thinking about moving but didn't think he would be allowed to...
i still am not sure how to take that, it is a very odd attitude from my perspective, but i guess is part of the culture of loyalty in japan. he is still there, many years later...;-)
After my thesis review, one of the professors on my panel, who I'd studied with freshman year, gave me this advice: "Slow down. There's no reason to rush through life."
"thanks for sticking around and helping us [pack up the moving truck]"
-8:30 on friday night, after the firm i worked for shutdown their chicago office
beta - I think you're over cynical about comb's post - I think the idea of promoting mutual gratitude clearly was the point of comb's comments.
i had three jobs before starting my own firm 12 years ago. in all that time, i've seen gratitude conveyed much more consistently and frequently by the firms than by the employees
as an associate partner in one firm and more recently a founding partner in my current firm, I observe sadly that no matter how hard we work to provide great working conditions, good pay, strong benefis, professional growth and terrific bonuses, many employees take a regular "it's my due" attitude and never express any gratitude at all for our efforts on their behalf -- after a few years, this starts to wear very thin, but we still pursue the same caring approach because it's the right thing to do
Both of my parents busted their butts to provide for my sister & I. I think a lot of that work ethic carried over into my architectural career, therefore I pulled a lot of all-nighters in studio and continued to push really hard at work with long hours and working weekends.
After hearing about a recent string of working long nights and weekends, my dad says to me, "Nobody lies on their deathbed and says they wished they would've worked more..." Kinda put things in perspective for me.
I remember leaving a office and the going away gift was a mold smelling book....guess I must have been a pain in the ass...on the other hand...all my renderings hung in the reception area...which I still find strange to this day.
hee hee - Steven - That reminds me of that line about people locked up in insane asylums... Maybe they're the sane ones; the crazys are on the outside!
Come to think of it, I think our fellow architect, Brad Pitt said that line in "12 Monkeys"...
seems keller easterling can frame everything as an architectural observation. and since she also says that she doesn't understand leisure time, she must be all-architecture, 24/7.
so this is half-joking/half-serious. look around you: isn't that all architecture - or at least design? why aren't people talking about this constantly?
"Nobody lies on their deathbed and says they wished they would've worked more..." I am beginning to wonder if Bill Gates will be the first person to utter the contrary... If we aren't doing architecture out of love, then what are we really doing it for?
During a lecture Liz Diller was asked something like 'How do you find time to balance between architecture and family' to which she replied something like, 'Why should I balance the two?'
saturday morning, almost afternoon. doing some freelance work drinking coffee and listening to the great left wing radio show "this is hell" out of evanston via the internets...go vado go
when i was in grad school we had this crotchety old prof, a former dean, who had run a practice for god knows how many years. all he did was bitch and bitch. but then he would add, but i wouldn't do anything else. at the time i thought "thats not gonna happen to me old man" well im older and god i catch myself saying the same shit he did. except for the part of not doing anything else.
comb- you must have misunderstood what i was saying about my boss's comment. it had absolutely nothing to do with not feeling appreciated at my office... he was also my professor at one point, he paid me fairly well, and my schedule was super flexible. i was simply reflecting on his comment - how many people, like myself, find it difficult to find a balance between architecture and personal life.
hehe
dyee- one of my professors suggested that i marry a jewish lawyer.
i think putting all your interest and intensity into any one area is a bti short sighted. i do love architecture...but i also love cooking, playing ultimate frisbee, tennis, drinking beer, movies, riding my bike, hip hop, seeing art and my friends and theres no way id give any one thing more than 40 hours in a week. theres no other job id rather have but there are lots of things i like to do and my job is just one of them.
file - unsure as to what exactly an employee needs to do to show
appreciation...i try to say thank you for everything that my boss
gives me..although sometimes it's hard because they seem
weirded out that you thanked them for dinner. i think an employee
is showing a hell of a lot of appreciation for working longer than
normal hours..making the rest of their lives subservient to the
whims of the scheduling of the principal. often working weekends
etc. not sure what else is needed. or what else an employee could
do.
floatingtooth...have the same 'problem' as well. i like a heck of a
lot of things...sports, art, poker, furniture making, carpentry, etc.
etc. and i don't necessarily see architecture as the most important.
i feel as though the unique component of an architecture education
is the ability to think in a different way..an aesthetic tase and eye
often wasted on/not given to the general public. it prepares you
with a creative ability to potentially branch out into a range of careers
rather than just solely thinking that an office life is the one and only
way. i've worked as a carpenter, artist, made furniture, done
freelance work, construction as well as workin in a office. something
i wouldn't have expected from any other schooling.
one anchored
: from the perspective of the firm, i believe gratitude manifests itself in the way an employee conducts him(her)self each day ... personally, I don't expect gushy thank-you's ... hell, it embarasses me when the staff feels like they want to give the owners gifts each year at the holiday party ... that's not what i look for or hope for ... what makes me satisfied is seeing a good design professional come to work each day, operating in a manner that indicates his(her) interests and the firm's interests are one and the same ... taking exceptional care with our clients and our work ... investing of him(her)self as though what he(she) does each day has great value ... using professional conduct and professional judgment at all times ... operating in a way that signifies that the environment and the clients we provide helps his(her) career and advances his(her) own development and satisfaction ... giving something back, such as freely mentoring younger staff or going out of the way to clean up the coffee spill that somebody else left in the hall or spontaneously tackling some little problem that bugs everybody else but nobody has time to address ... indicating that he(she) sees the time he(she) spends at the firm as a long-term investment in becoming a really good architect, not just a holding place until that next job offer comes along ... there are a thousand little things that say to me each day that this person appreciates (or doesn't appreciate) what the firm offers him(her) in exchange for his(her) time and his(her) talent. to me, gratitude becomes evident when a member of the firm truly functions as a genuine, committed member of the team ... not in saying "hey boss, thanks for the bonus" (although, that's nice too !)
a really smart friend of mine often says "the only thing you have real control over is your own attitude" ... while veering a bit away from my main theme above, i also want to populate our firm with people who don't come to work every day with a cynical attitude, a chip on their sholder and a feeling that everybody else is out to screw them over.
Nice post, file. You sound like someone I would want to work for.
I appreciate when loyalty is noticed, appreciated, and even expected of me and my peers. It worries me when principals don't seem openly concerned when people leave the firm, and I wonder, "Are they okay with this? Is the firm just a breeding ground for other firms?"
That's not to say that I haven't left firms before... The best parting words I received upon relocating to another state were, "Come back and run this place someday." I was flattered and still - to this day - consider it an open offer to return if I ever move back to the area.
okay i hear you. and i agree with what you said.
and i think that's what i was trying to say.
i once worked
for a taskmaster...who regularly chided employees for not getting
things done fast enough...not doing things correctly etc. was always
on top of his staff, but when you did something right he was
very encouraging..and seemed to actually care about the individual
as well as the work. we all grumbled about working there, but we
all stayed for years (until we moved out of the city) because i think
we appreciated the work and also liked, in some ways, that he was
on top of things. i would regularly stay late there to try and finish
things for the next day and so that i could do it better than the
short time he had given it allowed...time i didn't 'have' to put in.
it was also a small firm...so we did everything. i took out the trash,
everyone answered phones, i shovelled snow off the roof/sidewalks,
we did cold calls to try and drum up work (that was awful)
at the end he ended up giving me a months severance and two
months healthcare because we were too low on work and we mutually
agreed i needed to move to new york city.
a gesture that never happened before or since (and is virtually
unheard of in our profession)...i would go back and work for that
guy in a second.
maybe i'm a cynic, but i rarely see firms investing in their
employees...if you want the employee to think long term, than the
firm should consider that as well. here in nyc, most are
hired as a consultant/ given no benefits and worked til they drop.
also on the issue of quitting. it's expected that an employee give
two weeks...but firms rarely do the same. and even when an
employee gives two weeks out of respect (or longer) the firm
responds by saying 'well, we don't really need you to stay, you
can leave today'.. architects too often act like the jilted lover when
it comes to employees leaving. one area of professionalism that
could probably be worked on by both parties.
larslarson ... to my way of thinking, there's a world of difference between an employee resigning (for whatever reason) and a firm letting an employee go (for whatever reason) ... when firms let someone go, they tend to not want that person to stay around because his/her presence tends to be demoralizing to the rest of the staff ... and, it's not unheard of for terminated employees to make mischief out of spite
my sense is that you may be generalizing globally about circumstances you encounter there in nyc ... that's probably neither fair nor representative of the rest of the country ... i work in a large urban area in the south and much of what nyc posters report here on Archinect does not concide with the way most firms in our part of the country approach their staff and firm operations.
it's my last week at work and my boss told me today, "i think it's totally selfish of you to leave and go back to school." half jokingly of course, but i could still detect a hint of seriousness....
you may be right. although i would say it's what i experienced
in boston too. so it could be an northeast thing.
i understand your point re: terminated employees. but again,
there's a difference between firing and laying off. i believe architecture
is one of the few occupations where they offer no compensation
for laying someone off...no severance or health care typically..
(although i could be wrong.) this strikes me as being unproffesional
and adds to my cynicism re: how much i should be 'giving back'
to my firm. if a firm is unwilling to extend courtesy to me i feel
semi unwilling to return courtesy. telling someone that they have
to pack up their desk by the end of the day is ridiculous..but that's
my opinion..i'm sure it's hard for the firm to gauge as well. and
if you did do anything your way out the door the firm could always
subtract money from your final paycheck...so i don't see that as an
excuse.
at my last job i gave them three months notice..and they still
complained when i reminded them of the final date two weeks
before. i gave them every chance to hire someone who i could
train and teach about the projects i was leading, but they took
no initiative assuming i'd just stay after the three months was
up.
layoffs are a particularly difficult issue to address ... i can only speak for my own firm ... during a severe economic downturn some years back, we began to experience an increasingly difficult mis-match between workload and staffing levels ... although we were working exceedingly hard to bring in new work, there just was none to be had ... nevertheless, we remained optimistic and kept our staff together, although it was clear to everybody here that quite a few people were just doing busy work ... this went on for months and we lost money for months ... the final straw arrived when a big project we were depending on was placed on indefininte hold by the client ... at that point, we had no choice ... we had to layoff 5 people ... by then, we had carried people we wanted to keep for so long that all we could do for them was provide two weeks severence pay (which we had to borrow from the bank) ... that severance package was seen by them (rightfully so) as a pittance, but it literally was all we could manage ...
in hindsight, a case could be made that we should have terminated their employment much earlier and provided a more substantial severance package ... but, there were no jobs at other firms in our area for these folks either, so - in a sense - we did them a favor by carrying them as long as we did. but, i confess they found that a hard story to swallow and there was a certain amount of bitterness that lingers to this day when we see one of them around town ... i also will say that during this multi-month period when we were losing money, the owners of the firm were taking HUGE paycuts to help offset the cash flow difficulties. we also spent a considerable amount of time trying to place these people in positions with other firms before actually having to make the termination decision. we were not successful in any of those temporary placement efforts.
in such circumstances there are no good decisions, just difficult choices from among several very unattractive options.
i commend you for your efforts. a lot of firms that i have worked
for would not do what you did. your policy is not what i would expect
from most employers...and the two weeks severance seems generous
to me. after all they can collect unemployment since they were
terminated. i agree that there is no easy way...especially in small
firms where work is so not always coming in the door.
i got laid off once in my career and i do still hold a grudge to this day,
but i don't believe they gave me severance and i was told to be out
of the building the same day. in retrospect it was one of the best
things that's happened to me, but i just didn't like how it was handled.
and how that firm handled its business in general.
I'm fairly certain it's not legal for a firm to fire you and tell you to be out that day - unless you pose a physical threat or have broken the law in some way. They have to give you two weeks notice.
Although if someone told me to get out today I'd say fine, give me my two weeks pay and I'm gone.
"In most states, in the absence of specific contract provisions to the contrary, employment for an indefinite period is terminable at will by either party. This means where a contract of employment is indefinite in duration, the employer has the right to discharge the employee with or without cause.
State and federal laws regulate terminations - for example, you can not terminate an employee due to their race, gender, ethnicity, union
sympathy, disability and any number of other reasons. If you terminate an employee for an illegal reason, you are liable under these laws even if you are in an at-will state.
In addition, even if you are in an at-will state, you still should have a justifiable, non-discriminatory business reason for any discharge. Why? Because if an employee states a claim for an illegal discharge based on one of the many statutes or legal theories available, the employer is normally required to state a legitimate reason for the discharge.
While it's not illegal to fire someone for no reason in at-will states, it is dumb. Always have a legally defensible reason for any discharge."
"There's more to life than architecture"
So today is my last day at the small firm I've worked at for almost 3 years... now it's off to 3 years at grad school. The only advice my boss had to give me is, "There's more to life than architecture." That's it. And it started to occur to me how little he comes to work each day, and it's only getting worse. Does anyone else question your love/hate relationship with architecture, and if so, how do you cope with it?
Can anyone add any great deparing remarks from past employers?
Today is also my last day, and some coworkers photoshopped my head onto to some preppy, blue polo shirt wearing dude throwing up gang sign/party hands. So far I've received no advice, but it does warm my heart a bit to see what happens when you put a bunch of people into the same building all day and provide them with the tools they need to make fun of one another.
"you better visit us when you become an architect"-from my security guard co-workers
No departing remarks from past employers, but one of my studio professors actually gave me the same advice after a final crit. He said "Architecture can't be everything. There has to be a balance." He was right. I do my best not to bring my work home with me. My family has tocome first.
my last day at my last job my last boss casually said to me
see ya
great to know you're appreciated.
how about this... i gave my two weeks notice at my job and my boss comes back the next day and tells me that he really doesn't need me for two weeks and that i should leave at the end of the week.
i felt like the 'dumpee' instead of the 'dumper'
i don't know what made me think of these: pithy comments maybe.
i have a contractor who regularly repeats that he'll have something finished "friday noon - or someday soon".
and another: "in hindsight...boy i'd be blind without it..."
sorry to digress.
good luck in your next chapter, shaybug. and orequal.
shaybug, I have to say that if you boss said that, and he/she comes in late every day, there's something there. First off he/she's got it right. And second off, you don't have to commit your life to your work, and still move on up in a company.
not sure what you're really trying to get at in this thread ... is it about a perceived "lack of gratitude" by the firm when someone leaves ?
didn't they pay you while you worked there ? what sort of gratitude did you express to the firm when you got each check ? what sort of gratitude did you express to the firm when you resigned to pursue you own life ?
i'm not really attacking you here, but i've been doing this for a while and have learned that you can't have it both ways ... firm's don't exist to make your life either easy or fun (although it's really nice when both of those things do happen) ... individuals don't exist to give their entire lives and their souls to their firms ...
in my experience, this absolutely is a two-way street ... not to get all biblical on you here, but for both parties, the old saying "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" seems to have a certain resonance in this discussion.
time at computer = pay check
hmm...never thought about it that way.
so we are machines then? when i get paid for performing the task, there is no obligation by either party to say thank you for that bonus or thank you for staying extra to get that job done, because i got paid, and they got their pound of flesh??
what i expect is that i get treated the way i treat them and that means maximum effort - even at the cost of minimal pay - which means i go above and beyond my 9-5 and maybe the firm should too. so shady, you have every right to expect more out of humans, when so much more is demanded of us lowly worker drones...
I am getting a little upset at the lack of a pat on the back at my office. I am serious. And please refrain from feeding me any "real world" crap - I especially don't want to hear anything about pay=gratitude.
If the boss doesn't care, why should I care?
We are expected to work above and beyond the 9-to-5. Normally I am up for it, but at the moment I am feeling rather disinclined. Maybe I was treated too well at my last job.
that sucks, garpike.
when i quit work to go to grad school, they gave me a nice farewell party...no real advice from my boss, but there was a memorable conversation...
one of the better architects in the office asked me very quietly how i was able to get permission to quit. he had been thinking about moving but didn't think he would be allowed to...
i still am not sure how to take that, it is a very odd attitude from my perspective, but i guess is part of the culture of loyalty in japan. he is still there, many years later...;-)
After my thesis review, one of the professors on my panel, who I'd studied with freshman year, gave me this advice: "Slow down. There's no reason to rush through life."
"thanks for sticking around and helping us [pack up the moving truck]"
-8:30 on friday night, after the firm i worked for shutdown their chicago office
beta - I think you're over cynical about comb's post - I think the idea of promoting mutual gratitude clearly was the point of comb's comments.
i had three jobs before starting my own firm 12 years ago. in all that time, i've seen gratitude conveyed much more consistently and frequently by the firms than by the employees
as an associate partner in one firm and more recently a founding partner in my current firm, I observe sadly that no matter how hard we work to provide great working conditions, good pay, strong benefis, professional growth and terrific bonuses, many employees take a regular "it's my due" attitude and never express any gratitude at all for our efforts on their behalf -- after a few years, this starts to wear very thin, but we still pursue the same caring approach because it's the right thing to do
Both of my parents busted their butts to provide for my sister & I. I think a lot of that work ethic carried over into my architectural career, therefore I pulled a lot of all-nighters in studio and continued to push really hard at work with long hours and working weekends.
After hearing about a recent string of working long nights and weekends, my dad says to me, "Nobody lies on their deathbed and says they wished they would've worked more..." Kinda put things in perspective for me.
file, you are probably right, i am feeling underappreciated in my current role and perhaps a bit on edge.
beta - these are damn stressful times, all around - hang in there, dude
I remember leaving a office and the going away gift was a mold smelling book....guess I must have been a pain in the ass...on the other hand...all my renderings hung in the reception area...which I still find strange to this day.
maybe architecture is the only thing in life and we're just the only ones paying attention.
hee hee - Steven - That reminds me of that line about people locked up in insane asylums... Maybe they're the sane ones; the crazys are on the outside!
Come to think of it, I think our fellow architect, Brad Pitt said that line in "12 Monkeys"...
seems keller easterling can frame everything as an architectural observation. and since she also says that she doesn't understand leisure time, she must be all-architecture, 24/7.
so this is half-joking/half-serious. look around you: isn't that all architecture - or at least design? why aren't people talking about this constantly?
"Nobody lies on their deathbed and says they wished they would've worked more..." I am beginning to wonder if Bill Gates will be the first person to utter the contrary... If we aren't doing architecture out of love, then what are we really doing it for?
During a lecture Liz Diller was asked something like 'How do you find time to balance between architecture and family' to which she replied something like, 'Why should I balance the two?'
GO LIZ GO!!!
saturday morning, almost afternoon. doing some freelance work drinking coffee and listening to the great left wing radio show "this is hell" out of evanston via the internets...go vado go
oh and i got the heating pad on my bad shoulder too...
As my second year studio professor told me..."If you want to be a rich architect...marry rich."
when i was in grad school we had this crotchety old prof, a former dean, who had run a practice for god knows how many years. all he did was bitch and bitch. but then he would add, but i wouldn't do anything else. at the time i thought "thats not gonna happen to me old man" well im older and god i catch myself saying the same shit he did. except for the part of not doing anything else.
Architecture is like religion its perfect on its own; the people that practice it are not perfect.
pyramids are the only real architecture on this planet
comb- you must have misunderstood what i was saying about my boss's comment. it had absolutely nothing to do with not feeling appreciated at my office... he was also my professor at one point, he paid me fairly well, and my schedule was super flexible. i was simply reflecting on his comment - how many people, like myself, find it difficult to find a balance between architecture and personal life.
hehe
dyee- one of my professors suggested that i marry a jewish lawyer.
i think putting all your interest and intensity into any one area is a bti short sighted. i do love architecture...but i also love cooking, playing ultimate frisbee, tennis, drinking beer, movies, riding my bike, hip hop, seeing art and my friends and theres no way id give any one thing more than 40 hours in a week. theres no other job id rather have but there are lots of things i like to do and my job is just one of them.
"the more an architect realizes that there is more to this than architecture, the better architect you will become.."
-me
just now, today
file - unsure as to what exactly an employee needs to do to show
appreciation...i try to say thank you for everything that my boss
gives me..although sometimes it's hard because they seem
weirded out that you thanked them for dinner. i think an employee
is showing a hell of a lot of appreciation for working longer than
normal hours..making the rest of their lives subservient to the
whims of the scheduling of the principal. often working weekends
etc. not sure what else is needed. or what else an employee could
do.
floatingtooth...have the same 'problem' as well. i like a heck of a
lot of things...sports, art, poker, furniture making, carpentry, etc.
etc. and i don't necessarily see architecture as the most important.
i feel as though the unique component of an architecture education
is the ability to think in a different way..an aesthetic tase and eye
often wasted on/not given to the general public. it prepares you
with a creative ability to potentially branch out into a range of careers
rather than just solely thinking that an office life is the one and only
way. i've worked as a carpenter, artist, made furniture, done
freelance work, construction as well as workin in a office. something
i wouldn't have expected from any other schooling.
one anchored
i was a professional bar room brawler and an armadillo wrestler.
top that lars...
: from the perspective of the firm, i believe gratitude manifests itself in the way an employee conducts him(her)self each day ... personally, I don't expect gushy thank-you's ... hell, it embarasses me when the staff feels like they want to give the owners gifts each year at the holiday party ... that's not what i look for or hope for ... what makes me satisfied is seeing a good design professional come to work each day, operating in a manner that indicates his(her) interests and the firm's interests are one and the same ... taking exceptional care with our clients and our work ... investing of him(her)self as though what he(she) does each day has great value ... using professional conduct and professional judgment at all times ... operating in a way that signifies that the environment and the clients we provide helps his(her) career and advances his(her) own development and satisfaction ... giving something back, such as freely mentoring younger staff or going out of the way to clean up the coffee spill that somebody else left in the hall or spontaneously tackling some little problem that bugs everybody else but nobody has time to address ... indicating that he(she) sees the time he(she) spends at the firm as a long-term investment in becoming a really good architect, not just a holding place until that next job offer comes along ... there are a thousand little things that say to me each day that this person appreciates (or doesn't appreciate) what the firm offers him(her) in exchange for his(her) time and his(her) talent. to me, gratitude becomes evident when a member of the firm truly functions as a genuine, committed member of the team ... not in saying "hey boss, thanks for the bonus" (although, that's nice too !)
a really smart friend of mine often says "the only thing you have real control over is your own attitude" ... while veering a bit away from my main theme above, i also want to populate our firm with people who don't come to work every day with a cynical attitude, a chip on their sholder and a feeling that everybody else is out to screw them over.
Nice post, file. You sound like someone I would want to work for.
I appreciate when loyalty is noticed, appreciated, and even expected of me and my peers. It worries me when principals don't seem openly concerned when people leave the firm, and I wonder, "Are they okay with this? Is the firm just a breeding ground for other firms?"
That's not to say that I haven't left firms before... The best parting words I received upon relocating to another state were, "Come back and run this place someday." I was flattered and still - to this day - consider it an open offer to return if I ever move back to the area.
file.
okay i hear you. and i agree with what you said.
and i think that's what i was trying to say.
i once worked
for a taskmaster...who regularly chided employees for not getting
things done fast enough...not doing things correctly etc. was always
on top of his staff, but when you did something right he was
very encouraging..and seemed to actually care about the individual
as well as the work. we all grumbled about working there, but we
all stayed for years (until we moved out of the city) because i think
we appreciated the work and also liked, in some ways, that he was
on top of things. i would regularly stay late there to try and finish
things for the next day and so that i could do it better than the
short time he had given it allowed...time i didn't 'have' to put in.
it was also a small firm...so we did everything. i took out the trash,
everyone answered phones, i shovelled snow off the roof/sidewalks,
we did cold calls to try and drum up work (that was awful)
at the end he ended up giving me a months severance and two
months healthcare because we were too low on work and we mutually
agreed i needed to move to new york city.
a gesture that never happened before or since (and is virtually
unheard of in our profession)...i would go back and work for that
guy in a second.
maybe i'm a cynic, but i rarely see firms investing in their
employees...if you want the employee to think long term, than the
firm should consider that as well. here in nyc, most are
hired as a consultant/ given no benefits and worked til they drop.
addendum:
also on the issue of quitting. it's expected that an employee give
two weeks...but firms rarely do the same. and even when an
employee gives two weeks out of respect (or longer) the firm
responds by saying 'well, we don't really need you to stay, you
can leave today'.. architects too often act like the jilted lover when
it comes to employees leaving. one area of professionalism that
could probably be worked on by both parties.
larslarson ... to my way of thinking, there's a world of difference between an employee resigning (for whatever reason) and a firm letting an employee go (for whatever reason) ... when firms let someone go, they tend to not want that person to stay around because his/her presence tends to be demoralizing to the rest of the staff ... and, it's not unheard of for terminated employees to make mischief out of spite
my sense is that you may be generalizing globally about circumstances you encounter there in nyc ... that's probably neither fair nor representative of the rest of the country ... i work in a large urban area in the south and much of what nyc posters report here on Archinect does not concide with the way most firms in our part of the country approach their staff and firm operations.
My boss used to say:
"struggle"
it's my last week at work and my boss told me today, "i think it's totally selfish of you to leave and go back to school." half jokingly of course, but i could still detect a hint of seriousness....
quizzical.
you may be right. although i would say it's what i experienced
in boston too. so it could be an northeast thing.
i understand your point re: terminated employees. but again,
there's a difference between firing and laying off. i believe architecture
is one of the few occupations where they offer no compensation
for laying someone off...no severance or health care typically..
(although i could be wrong.) this strikes me as being unproffesional
and adds to my cynicism re: how much i should be 'giving back'
to my firm. if a firm is unwilling to extend courtesy to me i feel
semi unwilling to return courtesy. telling someone that they have
to pack up their desk by the end of the day is ridiculous..but that's
my opinion..i'm sure it's hard for the firm to gauge as well. and
if you did do anything your way out the door the firm could always
subtract money from your final paycheck...so i don't see that as an
excuse.
at my last job i gave them three months notice..and they still
complained when i reminded them of the final date two weeks
before. i gave them every chance to hire someone who i could
train and teach about the projects i was leading, but they took
no initiative assuming i'd just stay after the three months was
up.
Building is a job. Art and design is a way of life - you can't shut off that way of thinking. Architecture is both.
One former employer's last words to me were 'get out'.
layoffs are a particularly difficult issue to address ... i can only speak for my own firm ... during a severe economic downturn some years back, we began to experience an increasingly difficult mis-match between workload and staffing levels ... although we were working exceedingly hard to bring in new work, there just was none to be had ... nevertheless, we remained optimistic and kept our staff together, although it was clear to everybody here that quite a few people were just doing busy work ... this went on for months and we lost money for months ... the final straw arrived when a big project we were depending on was placed on indefininte hold by the client ... at that point, we had no choice ... we had to layoff 5 people ... by then, we had carried people we wanted to keep for so long that all we could do for them was provide two weeks severence pay (which we had to borrow from the bank) ... that severance package was seen by them (rightfully so) as a pittance, but it literally was all we could manage ...
in hindsight, a case could be made that we should have terminated their employment much earlier and provided a more substantial severance package ... but, there were no jobs at other firms in our area for these folks either, so - in a sense - we did them a favor by carrying them as long as we did. but, i confess they found that a hard story to swallow and there was a certain amount of bitterness that lingers to this day when we see one of them around town ... i also will say that during this multi-month period when we were losing money, the owners of the firm were taking HUGE paycuts to help offset the cash flow difficulties. we also spent a considerable amount of time trying to place these people in positions with other firms before actually having to make the termination decision. we were not successful in any of those temporary placement efforts.
in such circumstances there are no good decisions, just difficult choices from among several very unattractive options.
quizzical
i commend you for your efforts. a lot of firms that i have worked
for would not do what you did. your policy is not what i would expect
from most employers...and the two weeks severance seems generous
to me. after all they can collect unemployment since they were
terminated. i agree that there is no easy way...especially in small
firms where work is so not always coming in the door.
i got laid off once in my career and i do still hold a grudge to this day,
but i don't believe they gave me severance and i was told to be out
of the building the same day. in retrospect it was one of the best
things that's happened to me, but i just didn't like how it was handled.
and how that firm handled its business in general.
I'm fairly certain it's not legal for a firm to fire you and tell you to be out that day - unless you pose a physical threat or have broken the law in some way. They have to give you two weeks notice.
Although if someone told me to get out today I'd say fine, give me my two weeks pay and I'm gone.
State and federal laws regulate terminations - for example, you can not terminate an employee due to their race, gender, ethnicity, union
sympathy, disability and any number of other reasons. If you terminate an employee for an illegal reason, you are liable under these laws even if you are in an at-will state.
In addition, even if you are in an at-will state, you still should have a justifiable, non-discriminatory business reason for any discharge. Why? Because if an employee states a claim for an illegal discharge based on one of the many statutes or legal theories available, the employer is normally required to state a legitimate reason for the discharge.
While it's not illegal to fire someone for no reason in at-will states, it is dumb. Always have a legally defensible reason for any discharge."
Thanks Babs, where did you get that information? And how does one find out if they're in an "at-will" state?
i did a google on "employment at will" ... you'll find more information there than you possibly can process.
your state's department of labor probably has a website that will tell you what you want to know.
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