I dont know who the hell I am anymore. Im doing a internship for school, Im a senior in college, and it just seems like the soul of my body and the ever lasting ambition of achitecture that drives me to wake up every morning has been so ever lasting sucked out of me. I work in a firm that designs are 'okay'. Lets just say they are practical in design (AKA your starndard Wal-Mart). They do have a great passion for architecture but they tend to not create anything that is 'inspiring'. Major design efforts are created by head drafts people that are talented in what they do but design wise I dont think they are really trained as architects. They are more trained to pump out drawings. It just feelings that everything that Ive learned in school, is vanishing. For the love of me I had to redo a detail over 30 times today! NO JOKE! Ive beening using CAD for 5 years now, and they just find something new to change. I dont know if they are doing it on purpose to drive me nuts... I dunno. I love architecture so much, but it is seeming to disapear....
taco...
only a "senior in college" and you are already complaining, please... why not try to find some personal challenges in the mundane details.
why not try to learn something, (like how to properly construct building systems or put together a tight set of drawings, or how to properly manage a project) from the head drafts people instead of whining...
you are an intern? what did you expect?
and fyi: the reason why you had to redraw the same detail 30 times is because you didn’t do it properly the 1st or 2nd times...
let me pop that bubble of yours and send you hurdling back down to reality - you have very little experience and probably very little clue about how to construct a building.
try to turn this internship into a positive experience, by carefully observing the people you work with. When your boss rejects one of your sloppy details, pay attention to why he rejected it so you can learn from your mistakes and move forward.
the people whom you talk about - those who are passionate about architecture, but are not necessarily trained as designers are usually very smart when it comes to the task of knowing what a set of drawings needs in order for the project to run smoothly, how to handle hostile situations with contractors, etc, etc, etc...
bottom line: you are getting an experience that cannot be taught in the classroom, or the studio, and sometimes not even at more design oriented firms....
I feel your pain Taco. I am in the EXACT same situation, asking those EXACT same questions about my co-op. I realize this is what the real world of arch is like, and our education doesn’t give us the faintest hint into what to expect.
Experiences like this just give me more motivation to do well in school, and upon graduation find a firm who’s passions are along the same lines as my own.
Also, I think it will have an impact on my design process (when I’m back in school of course, I would never be allowed to design at work.) I will keep in mind my experiences in the practical world, and probably do a few more details of my projects then I would have otherwise.
We may be getting dicked now, but better times are on the horizon.... Good luck guy...
i understand as well. along a different line, we just got a new townhouse development. it was fun to start. (was) my boss hands it to me and says have a go at it. i worked for a week on it and then he comes up and says, lets all do a floor plan and input it into the building. what? my hopes and dreams just got ripped away. i had a beautiful, sleek, very simply laid out design, that has now been ripped up and completely broken apart.
whatever. i graudate in a year and then im out.
Im going though the same experience. My boss came from Wisconsin school of architecture and Minnesota. Not really the design centers of the universe. He doent really know what architecture really is. Its kindof sad.
The same thing happened to me between my 3rd and 4th year. But I don't feel sorry for you. In a month or so, you are back into the utopia called school. This under-inspiring job is good for you because now you know what to look for when you graduate. It will push you to never compromise your values again. It has for me. Just survive for now.
hey, buddy, my first job in architecture...i answered the phone, took out the trash, ran to get lunch for my boss, and filed. not ONE IOTA of "design." indeed it was three summers before i was even allowed to get on a computer. i learned a lot.
the question is still: who am i and what the hell am i doing? (the "i" being you)
there is a strange phenomenon with people. when things aren't going exactly their own way, when things go badly, they tend to immediately look outside themselves for the reason why.
many grown-up architects, loath to self-examine after years of accumulating the chitin of ego, pride, victimhood, and martyrdom, revert immediately to extrospection when faced with less-than-perfect circumstances. you are progressing quite nicely towards this personality disorder.
you are a senior in college. you know next to nothing about buildings, much less architecture. sure, you're working for a firm that does wal-marts. is there not something you can learn from this?
can you not learn how to compose a sheet in a drawing set? how to detail a bathroom such that all the tile joints line up? how to take a phone call from a screaming contractor and calm him down and arrive at a compromise without conceding the essentials of your position?
by just getting pissy and lashing out at your surroundings you are missing out on unbelievably valuable learning experiences.
AND you need to realize what a liability you are at your stage (i was exactly the same as you, with identical sentiments) and how little your firm is actually gaining by your presence. indeed, the time that whoever is taking to make you redo something 30 times...is probably time that can't reasonably be billed to a client, time that could have been spent doing something with more tangible results.
because most supervisors of people at your stage just give up and do the job themselves.
nicely put ochona, looks like we are on the same wavelength on this topic.
Thank you for touching onto something that i had forgot earlier, that is the liability of an intern. HUGE! but it is not the intern, who has to make an apperance in court because he F'd up an accessible detail, or it is not the intern who has to sit there and explain to an owner, why they have to pay an extra $10K, $20K, $100K because a detail, or drawing is incorrect. this is serious stuff you are dealing with
if you have to redraw something it is because you did not draw it correctly... maybe you have a different way, maybe that way is more efficient, but until you are in the hot seat with the owner, contractor, building officials, it is not your call....
it sucks so just deal with it and dont screw it up next time.
and no matter where you work, you will always have to redraw the same thing over and over until it is as close to perfect as you can get it. this does not only happen in architecture buddy - every profession is the same...
architecture is a rich man's hobby...... the ones with the cash call the shots...... that's why i left the field....tired of the b.s. and the un creative shit that is built....... the business men that run the company usually cant design and just want a design that will work..
there's some firms that have great designers/etc..... but i guess you have to climb the ladder to get there.......
there's alot more to life than to be unhappy with a career that you are passionate about........ it might just be time to get a regular job and treat architecture as a hobby then....less headaches....... frustration/etc......
buy you some tools and build some furniture and be creative in that manner....
ochona & cin1 are right & wise...take their words to heart.
you need patience to become an architect...and if you can't wait then leave. seriously, just leave. go take a job for some big fortune 500 corporation with decent benefits. sit in cubicle and punch into an excel spreadsheet all morning while you wait for lunch.
want some real fun?
and the big money?
then try a sales job. in five years your average income will be well over $100k/year (provided you last five years and haven't slit your wrists because your boss wants you to make a hundred phone calls/day, you have to wear a suit & tie per company policy and—even worst—waste your lunch hours making shitty power point presentations while watchin other people eat.
in short, jobs suck. pick your poison...if you dig drawing, then it might as well be architecture.
While I think the responses are mostly valid, I think that some responses are unnecessarily harsh. I think you have a right to vent, and I don't think people should be making you feel bad about it.
It wouldn't be so frustrating if reality gap between school and work weren't so large. Its the reason that the profession loses like 50 percent of its interns within 5 years of graduation. Of course you are going to be pissed off if after 4-8 years of studio you get to stare at Autocad and everyone is telling you to suck it up cause thats life as an intern. How are you supposed to learn what you don't know if you didn't know you were supposed to learn it?
After that first year at work you start to realize if your job is heading in a direction that may or may not be beneficial to your personal career goals. There is no way in hell I'd stay at a job or internship that had me taking out the trash and picking up coffee, but I'd compromise on the 'inspirational design skills' if the there were real opportunities to learn about how the profession works. And by 'real opportunity' I mean having more knowledgeable people at the office who take the time to really help you and explain things to you and also let you step up and work issues out on your own.
I think that once you settle more into the reality of the HUGE learning curve, you will open up more to what your current employers have to offer you. In the end you may leave anyway, but in the meantime just soak up what you can.
shouldn't students in architecture school know what reality is like (assuming that they've had previous summer internship experience)? I myself, as a recent high school graduate, have friends who are already working in architecture firms over the summer.
Shouldn't periodic exposure to the reality of practice (aka summer internship) give arch students a more realistic view of what the practice is like and thus, ease the transition from academia to practice better? i'm confused.
sashimi-
dont sweat it if you are confused, the unfortunate reality is that you really cannot completely understand practice until you are engulfed in it for 10+ years...
i was lucky and my first few internships were with firms who exposed me to a lot of the behind the scenes, closed door realities of practice.
it does not matter if you are working on a Wal-mart, or an OMA project, there are always constant values such as contractors looking to construct the building in the most efficient way, owners who never want to pay extra money for change orders, building inspectors whom will always be looking over your shoulder etc, etc...
and the worst thing is trying to explain a mistake on the drawings to a roomful of 20-30 people who can either be your best friend, or your worst enemy.
on any given set of drawings, almost always, the most mistakes can be found on the details. and it is these details that most interns and recent graduates get stuck working on. and although it is not always the interns fault for any mistake that may be on a detail, it is the responsibility of the person who made the mistake to learn from it.
i am a strong believer, that every intern should join the PM or principle on the jobsite for construction meetings every so often, even summer interns. there is no better way to learn.
i guess, the last thing that i can say to explain how it works is: imagine you are in the middle of a studio crit, it was a group project and the crit is going bad, really bad - mostly because of one person in the group failed to complete their task. now imagine that the reviewers are paying you for the work. how would you, could you, explain yourself... if you were able to avoid that situation by having the slacker in the group redraw the work, wouldnt that be the best situation?
let's see- what did I learn in the first few years out of school that I don't think about any more, but add to my competency:
how to fold drawings - there really is a technique
how to roll drawings - this makes a difference when the wind is blowing on the construction site
how to answer the phone - you never know who's calling, I once answered lou reed. new jobs typically start with a phone call.
acad - i still don't know how to rotate the ucs
building models - never want to do this again full time, but everynow and then it can be fun
making blue prints - those ammonia vapors really wake you up
sticky backs - oh we don't use them anymore
changing the pens in the plotter - ditto
where the latest fedex pickup in the neighborhood is - the most important skill!
None of this things were taught in school - but are central to the banality and tedium of practice. Designing anti-gravity structures only happens in school, once you graduate the laws of gravity start applying to everything you draw. so yup, working for an architecture firm aint glamorous - but you knew that already. Didn't you?
Thanks ochona, I think I just needed some sense knocked into me. Yea I think I just overreacted. I am halping a lot at my firm and they are appreciating it. I think I will work with them to really get the ins and outs on how to construct a building. Ive been reading a book on the theory of design and thats also knocking some sense into as well. I think Im back on planet earth. Thanks guys!
Thanks ochona, I think I just needed some sense knocked into me. Yea I think I just overreacted. I am halping a lot at my firm and they are appreciating it. I think I will work with them to really get the ins and outs on how to construct a building. Ive been reading a book on the theory of design and thats also knocking some sense into as well. I think Im back on planet earth. Thanks guys!
mc taco, you are a mc scholar and a mc gentleman. i had a prof who knocked some common sense in me when i was around 4th - 5th year of school, and parachuting into enemy territory at SOM about that time helped too.
a good way to stay sane is to separate your day job from your real interests in architecture, apply one to the other as needed, but while you are stuck in a cube and eating friday lunch at applebee's with the rest of your "team" during the day...you can be building your own practice.
because lots of people need house remodels out there -- i'm not kidding, do something for yourself as long as your day job's company policies do not EXPRESSLY forbid it.
ochona, i'm pretty curious about the last thing you said there... at the office where i interned last summer there was a guy who did a lot of his own work on the side.. small remodels like you mention mostly. i'm doing my second summer as an intern, and while i don't expect to being doing any design work now or real soon and while i definitely appreciate the real world knowledge i'm accumulating here, i can't help but hope that i don't end up designing mostly typical high end residences myself someday. do you think doing some work of your own on the side while working at a firm is a good way to do it? i've also noticed that a lot of my professors do some selective design work on the side as well. i know i'm a bit idealistic right now, but man, i just really would like to do some at least modestly quality design work someday. thanks.
ochona, definately agree that is the way to go, but you should caution people that it is A LOT of work. i've taken on 2 freelance jobs while working for big corporate.
FLM, for me it is a balancing act. i sold out to big corporate to make a good salary, but compensated the lack of design freedom by taking on my own projects on the side. i've seen people work for academically based firms doing interesting stuff in order to get there design ideas out there, but they don't get paid, and authorship is never theirs. That path to me is less desirable.
Who am I? What the hell am I doing? (Internship)
I dont know who the hell I am anymore. Im doing a internship for school, Im a senior in college, and it just seems like the soul of my body and the ever lasting ambition of achitecture that drives me to wake up every morning has been so ever lasting sucked out of me. I work in a firm that designs are 'okay'. Lets just say they are practical in design (AKA your starndard Wal-Mart). They do have a great passion for architecture but they tend to not create anything that is 'inspiring'. Major design efforts are created by head drafts people that are talented in what they do but design wise I dont think they are really trained as architects. They are more trained to pump out drawings. It just feelings that everything that Ive learned in school, is vanishing. For the love of me I had to redo a detail over 30 times today! NO JOKE! Ive beening using CAD for 5 years now, and they just find something new to change. I dont know if they are doing it on purpose to drive me nuts... I dunno. I love architecture so much, but it is seeming to disapear....
mr. taco, take it easy have a corona.
Remember, as they say, what will not kill you will make you strong.
agreed. some jobs will suck. take what you can from the experience and be thankful it's just an internship.
there's a firm that will motivate and inspire you in your future. in the meantime, you can while away the hours here on archinect for inspiration.
taco. get over yourself.
welcome to my nightmare...
taco...
only a "senior in college" and you are already complaining, please... why not try to find some personal challenges in the mundane details.
why not try to learn something, (like how to properly construct building systems or put together a tight set of drawings, or how to properly manage a project) from the head drafts people instead of whining...
you are an intern? what did you expect?
and fyi: the reason why you had to redraw the same detail 30 times is because you didn’t do it properly the 1st or 2nd times...
let me pop that bubble of yours and send you hurdling back down to reality - you have very little experience and probably very little clue about how to construct a building.
try to turn this internship into a positive experience, by carefully observing the people you work with. When your boss rejects one of your sloppy details, pay attention to why he rejected it so you can learn from your mistakes and move forward.
the people whom you talk about - those who are passionate about architecture, but are not necessarily trained as designers are usually very smart when it comes to the task of knowing what a set of drawings needs in order for the project to run smoothly, how to handle hostile situations with contractors, etc, etc, etc...
bottom line: you are getting an experience that cannot be taught in the classroom, or the studio, and sometimes not even at more design oriented firms....
I feel your pain Taco. I am in the EXACT same situation, asking those EXACT same questions about my co-op. I realize this is what the real world of arch is like, and our education doesn’t give us the faintest hint into what to expect.
Experiences like this just give me more motivation to do well in school, and upon graduation find a firm who’s passions are along the same lines as my own.
Also, I think it will have an impact on my design process (when I’m back in school of course, I would never be allowed to design at work.) I will keep in mind my experiences in the practical world, and probably do a few more details of my projects then I would have otherwise.
We may be getting dicked now, but better times are on the horizon.... Good luck guy...
i understand as well. along a different line, we just got a new townhouse development. it was fun to start. (was) my boss hands it to me and says have a go at it. i worked for a week on it and then he comes up and says, lets all do a floor plan and input it into the building. what? my hopes and dreams just got ripped away. i had a beautiful, sleek, very simply laid out design, that has now been ripped up and completely broken apart.
whatever. i graudate in a year and then im out.
at least im not stuck drawing details for walmart. im sorry for you.
Im going though the same experience. My boss came from Wisconsin school of architecture and Minnesota. Not really the design centers of the universe. He doent really know what architecture really is. Its kindof sad.
The same thing happened to me between my 3rd and 4th year. But I don't feel sorry for you. In a month or so, you are back into the utopia called school. This under-inspiring job is good for you because now you know what to look for when you graduate. It will push you to never compromise your values again. It has for me. Just survive for now.
Yup, now you've got some time to find a new profession!
The Department of Architecturalized Standardization welcomes you to the archive, this by right, in total compliance.
i think taco took my advice seriously and is drowning himself in Corona Extras
Im still here.
The question is now...
are we architects to practice the beauty within achitecture, or do we practice listening skills from the client?
hey, buddy, my first job in architecture...i answered the phone, took out the trash, ran to get lunch for my boss, and filed. not ONE IOTA of "design." indeed it was three summers before i was even allowed to get on a computer. i learned a lot.
the question is still: who am i and what the hell am i doing? (the "i" being you)
there is a strange phenomenon with people. when things aren't going exactly their own way, when things go badly, they tend to immediately look outside themselves for the reason why.
many grown-up architects, loath to self-examine after years of accumulating the chitin of ego, pride, victimhood, and martyrdom, revert immediately to extrospection when faced with less-than-perfect circumstances. you are progressing quite nicely towards this personality disorder.
you are a senior in college. you know next to nothing about buildings, much less architecture. sure, you're working for a firm that does wal-marts. is there not something you can learn from this?
can you not learn how to compose a sheet in a drawing set? how to detail a bathroom such that all the tile joints line up? how to take a phone call from a screaming contractor and calm him down and arrive at a compromise without conceding the essentials of your position?
by just getting pissy and lashing out at your surroundings you are missing out on unbelievably valuable learning experiences.
AND you need to realize what a liability you are at your stage (i was exactly the same as you, with identical sentiments) and how little your firm is actually gaining by your presence. indeed, the time that whoever is taking to make you redo something 30 times...is probably time that can't reasonably be billed to a client, time that could have been spent doing something with more tangible results.
because most supervisors of people at your stage just give up and do the job themselves.
nicely put ochona, looks like we are on the same wavelength on this topic.
Thank you for touching onto something that i had forgot earlier, that is the liability of an intern. HUGE! but it is not the intern, who has to make an apperance in court because he F'd up an accessible detail, or it is not the intern who has to sit there and explain to an owner, why they have to pay an extra $10K, $20K, $100K because a detail, or drawing is incorrect. this is serious stuff you are dealing with
if you have to redraw something it is because you did not draw it correctly... maybe you have a different way, maybe that way is more efficient, but until you are in the hot seat with the owner, contractor, building officials, it is not your call....
it sucks so just deal with it and dont screw it up next time.
and no matter where you work, you will always have to redraw the same thing over and over until it is as close to perfect as you can get it. this does not only happen in architecture buddy - every profession is the same...
architecture is a rich man's hobby...... the ones with the cash call the shots...... that's why i left the field....tired of the b.s. and the un creative shit that is built....... the business men that run the company usually cant design and just want a design that will work..
there's some firms that have great designers/etc..... but i guess you have to climb the ladder to get there.......
there's alot more to life than to be unhappy with a career that you are passionate about........ it might just be time to get a regular job and treat architecture as a hobby then....less headaches....... frustration/etc......
buy you some tools and build some furniture and be creative in that manner....
there's toooo much to know in architecture.....
b
ochona & cin1 are right & wise...take their words to heart.
you need patience to become an architect...and if you can't wait then leave. seriously, just leave. go take a job for some big fortune 500 corporation with decent benefits. sit in cubicle and punch into an excel spreadsheet all morning while you wait for lunch.
want some real fun?
and the big money?
then try a sales job. in five years your average income will be well over $100k/year (provided you last five years and haven't slit your wrists because your boss wants you to make a hundred phone calls/day, you have to wear a suit & tie per company policy and—even worst—waste your lunch hours making shitty power point presentations while watchin other people eat.
in short, jobs suck. pick your poison...if you dig drawing, then it might as well be architecture.
this is why we drink. cheers!
While I think the responses are mostly valid, I think that some responses are unnecessarily harsh. I think you have a right to vent, and I don't think people should be making you feel bad about it.
It wouldn't be so frustrating if reality gap between school and work weren't so large. Its the reason that the profession loses like 50 percent of its interns within 5 years of graduation. Of course you are going to be pissed off if after 4-8 years of studio you get to stare at Autocad and everyone is telling you to suck it up cause thats life as an intern. How are you supposed to learn what you don't know if you didn't know you were supposed to learn it?
After that first year at work you start to realize if your job is heading in a direction that may or may not be beneficial to your personal career goals. There is no way in hell I'd stay at a job or internship that had me taking out the trash and picking up coffee, but I'd compromise on the 'inspirational design skills' if the there were real opportunities to learn about how the profession works. And by 'real opportunity' I mean having more knowledgeable people at the office who take the time to really help you and explain things to you and also let you step up and work issues out on your own.
I think that once you settle more into the reality of the HUGE learning curve, you will open up more to what your current employers have to offer you. In the end you may leave anyway, but in the meantime just soak up what you can.
shouldn't students in architecture school know what reality is like (assuming that they've had previous summer internship experience)? I myself, as a recent high school graduate, have friends who are already working in architecture firms over the summer.
Shouldn't periodic exposure to the reality of practice (aka summer internship) give arch students a more realistic view of what the practice is like and thus, ease the transition from academia to practice better? i'm confused.
sashimi-
dont sweat it if you are confused, the unfortunate reality is that you really cannot completely understand practice until you are engulfed in it for 10+ years...
i was lucky and my first few internships were with firms who exposed me to a lot of the behind the scenes, closed door realities of practice.
it does not matter if you are working on a Wal-mart, or an OMA project, there are always constant values such as contractors looking to construct the building in the most efficient way, owners who never want to pay extra money for change orders, building inspectors whom will always be looking over your shoulder etc, etc...
and the worst thing is trying to explain a mistake on the drawings to a roomful of 20-30 people who can either be your best friend, or your worst enemy.
on any given set of drawings, almost always, the most mistakes can be found on the details. and it is these details that most interns and recent graduates get stuck working on. and although it is not always the interns fault for any mistake that may be on a detail, it is the responsibility of the person who made the mistake to learn from it.
i am a strong believer, that every intern should join the PM or principle on the jobsite for construction meetings every so often, even summer interns. there is no better way to learn.
i guess, the last thing that i can say to explain how it works is: imagine you are in the middle of a studio crit, it was a group project and the crit is going bad, really bad - mostly because of one person in the group failed to complete their task. now imagine that the reviewers are paying you for the work. how would you, could you, explain yourself... if you were able to avoid that situation by having the slacker in the group redraw the work, wouldnt that be the best situation?
let's see- what did I learn in the first few years out of school that I don't think about any more, but add to my competency:
how to fold drawings - there really is a technique
how to roll drawings - this makes a difference when the wind is blowing on the construction site
how to answer the phone - you never know who's calling, I once answered lou reed. new jobs typically start with a phone call.
acad - i still don't know how to rotate the ucs
building models - never want to do this again full time, but everynow and then it can be fun
making blue prints - those ammonia vapors really wake you up
sticky backs - oh we don't use them anymore
changing the pens in the plotter - ditto
where the latest fedex pickup in the neighborhood is - the most important skill!
None of this things were taught in school - but are central to the banality and tedium of practice. Designing anti-gravity structures only happens in school, once you graduate the laws of gravity start applying to everything you draw. so yup, working for an architecture firm aint glamorous - but you knew that already. Didn't you?
Thanks ochona, I think I just needed some sense knocked into me. Yea I think I just overreacted. I am halping a lot at my firm and they are appreciating it. I think I will work with them to really get the ins and outs on how to construct a building. Ive been reading a book on the theory of design and thats also knocking some sense into as well. I think Im back on planet earth. Thanks guys!
Thanks ochona, I think I just needed some sense knocked into me. Yea I think I just overreacted. I am halping a lot at my firm and they are appreciating it. I think I will work with them to really get the ins and outs on how to construct a building. Ive been reading a book on the theory of design and thats also knocking some sense into as well. I think Im back on planet earth. Thanks guys!
mc taco, you are a mc scholar and a mc gentleman. i had a prof who knocked some common sense in me when i was around 4th - 5th year of school, and parachuting into enemy territory at SOM about that time helped too.
a good way to stay sane is to separate your day job from your real interests in architecture, apply one to the other as needed, but while you are stuck in a cube and eating friday lunch at applebee's with the rest of your "team" during the day...you can be building your own practice.
because lots of people need house remodels out there -- i'm not kidding, do something for yourself as long as your day job's company policies do not EXPRESSLY forbid it.
ochona, i'm pretty curious about the last thing you said there... at the office where i interned last summer there was a guy who did a lot of his own work on the side.. small remodels like you mention mostly. i'm doing my second summer as an intern, and while i don't expect to being doing any design work now or real soon and while i definitely appreciate the real world knowledge i'm accumulating here, i can't help but hope that i don't end up designing mostly typical high end residences myself someday. do you think doing some work of your own on the side while working at a firm is a good way to do it? i've also noticed that a lot of my professors do some selective design work on the side as well. i know i'm a bit idealistic right now, but man, i just really would like to do some at least modestly quality design work someday. thanks.
ochona, definately agree that is the way to go, but you should caution people that it is A LOT of work. i've taken on 2 freelance jobs while working for big corporate.
FLM, for me it is a balancing act. i sold out to big corporate to make a good salary, but compensated the lack of design freedom by taking on my own projects on the side. i've seen people work for academically based firms doing interesting stuff in order to get there design ideas out there, but they don't get paid, and authorship is never theirs. That path to me is less desirable.
30 times...
30 times...
30 times...
30 times...
30 times...
id give up by 5 !!!
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