One of the big problems i have with the whole issue is that the value of life seems to be taken totally differently by the media- when a life is a life - whoever's side it's on.
It infuriates me that One Israeli is rougly equivalent to 16 Lebanese/Palestinian/Iraqi's or Afghans or whatever. This ridiculous assumption is I think partly what is perpetuating the struggle on all side- Lebabnon and certainly Palestine are made to feel inferior/less developed in order to overcompensate for the american supported right for Israel to exist which in turn makes them more desperate to assert themselves.
Fine Hezbullah may well be supported by Syria and Iran. On paper perhaps this even looks threatening to Israel. Israel however can buy all the weapons it wants- supported no doubt by massive funding for the usa, which effectivelty feeds back to itself, through arms sales that probably come from america. Israel so far has been able to be the older brother bully to both Palestine and Lebabnon.
Like a spoiled child not only does Israel have all the toys, but can beat up younger siblings eith impunity while still not being punished by mother of father america.
On the other side I can completely see that Israel is surrounded by countries that generally wish it would cease to exist. To me surely it would make more sense to be whiter than white- to be better than all the terrorists- and present yourself as the innocent party.
Tima and time again in the broad tin of whitewash that is 'self defence' Israel has perpetuated extraordinary actions. Im criticising Israle in all of this - because we can blame all other actions on terrorists (Hezbollah etc)
BUT we dont called Israel a terrorist?
What other county could possibly get away with targeted assasinations in broad daylight in a country that is not its own?
What country could possibly claim that destoying road links that allow evacuation to another counrty- that in no way accesses its own frontier could be self defence?
And all this over two soldiers?
So far Its 160 Lebanese down to about 20 israelis?
But now sow canadians have been killed so perhaps the world will do something about Israel now.
I think thats what the UN is for.....Until somebody just had to veto.
Hezbolahlahlah is connected with and part of the Lebanese government, the Lebonese Govt was supposed to dis arm HEZ according to the UN resolution. They didnt they are sleeping with terrorists and they will take the responsibility of each other's actions- as one group.
this is why Israeli action is not disproportionate. Iran, syria and the extremists have announced that they want to see Israel wiped out of existence they have proclaime dtheir intent of genocide.
Isreal has been willing to recognize a palestinian state at least-
Nobody wants the Palestinians to take their land. This is the same situation as the Kurds-Why not just wipe the Israelis off the map and we can all enjoy a region that is pure Arab.
The Lebanon people dont want the palestinians or HEZies (at least most reasonable people).
Why? it causes instability and brings in a bad element- terrorists with short tempers who are stupid and do irrational things.
Iran, Syria, Hez, palestinians have all said they dont want peace they want to get rid of Israel not because of things Isreal has done but because they are not Arab.
this is no secret. how does the rest of the world deal with this. they dont even play by the rules of combat engagement- they dont even attempt to hit military targets they deliberately target civilians.
yah Israel is more powerful- so stupid- dont pick a fight with them and then cry because they have bigger guns.
Lebanon is facing the consequences of siding with terrorists and Iran and Syria, and the Palestinians will face the same consequences. That is the message.
Some arab nations always cry because the US intervenes but that is not the real issue - They want the US to intervene on their behalf.
why don't we? because arab nations hold values that are contrary to ours on the most basic levels.
History will show you that we will help anyone if it is to our benefit and fits with what we believe in- look at Japan- right or wrong we will help Iran if they work with the US and the rest of the world- alot of times it has gotten us in trouble doing this sort of diplomacy.
I dont mean we will help if they do what we say- but they have to throw us a bone-
the problem is Israel has caved in the past to terrorism by trading prisoners with the Palestinians- that was a mistake- it sent the meassage that if you want something you just take it or threaten to kill.
BUSH is right in drawing a line in the sand with terrorists- he might not have picked the best platform or fight to make his point. I grew up with Iran kidnapping US citizens- planes were hijacked on a regular basis.
The previous presidents were soft on terrorism and have created the mess we are in- BUSH inherited the current world climate. My God not too long ago we were fighting the Russians and aiding anyone who would help us do that. Now we are best friends with the Russians and trying to nudge them toward a more democratic effort and Russia wants to be a bigger part of world trade. We can work with that.
People with no responsibility make unreasonable statements about the President with no proof just accusations. This is the hardest job on the planet.
if you want to show you are committed to peace in the middle east dont use so much oil- The corporations are not the problem. Individuals in the US use 24 barrells of Oil a year!!!! so 300,000 americans use more than the 1.2 Billion Chinese!!!
The demand creates the need the need creates the war.
Ask not what your country (or president )can do for you , ask what you can do for your country!!!
Freedom comes with responsibility!!!
Think about it how does your Indonesian coffe get to your kitchen? It is by boat, or plane, then trucked to the grocery, then packaged, then you drive to the store to get it. Energy is needed at every stage. Buy local blah blah blah blah Hezbalahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
its easy to say no war absolutly when you have everything you want and need. thats like saying curbing behavior is outdated. Like with kids who act up in public. They act up because discipline- and diplomacy has failed and so now a spanking is needed or some form of punishment for the wrong action committed by the child.
i agree with the sentiment though- it shouldn't be needed and should be outdated-
but its evolution- all of our benefits were gained through force, war, or violence in the west- and now we want them to use diplomacy? talking and the like.
think about where the refugees are being evacuated to Cyprus- it was invaded and occupied by Turkey in '74
the moderate Arab nations need to form a coalition/un type force but they are affraid so they let us do their dirty work-
unfortunately citizens suffer because of the actions of their governments.
if Israel did not invade Lebanon the un resolutions would never be enforced.
this is the same reason we resumed the fighting in Iraq after 10 years- time doesn't heal all wounds. We never ended the 1st war. it was a cease fire. We went to war the first time because they were invading their neighbors and spreading dictatorship- which increases the instability of the area and therefore world economics- and that directly affects us.
Syria, Iran, Iraq need to have their behavior curbed and since other arab nations in the region are too close for discomfort or they support terrorists themselves someone else has to do something.
guess who- people always bitch about the US "meddling" but we have prevented the spread of communism
i said the US has prevented communism from spreading - thats obviously not completely correct and and overstatement- but we were a significant force- it is falling because the idea is dependant upon people being inherantly good- and selfless and well don't we have enough proof yet to know people are bent toward evil
that is why none of us can judge and point fingers
if somebody threatened to take away your cellphone or Latte, or parking space, never mind kill your family you wouldn't be shouting peace peace.
fear fear is more like it- then hate hate- then ill kill you if you dont give me back my tall skinny no foam latte!!!
I can't beleive that it's religion again that causes this hate and murder. Jew, Muslim, Christian - they are all agressors. Take up Buddhism and live in peace.
Hilldomain - the US is amazing and good and we all should know it...
if you can't believe its religion thats causing all the trouble thats because that would be unbelievable because religion doesn't have a will.
religion doesn't cause hate and murder- maybe the distortion of belief systems.
Buddhism didn't prevent Japan from committing the Nan King masacres. or bombing Pearl Harbor while we weren't watching.
but then again the Japanese and the Chinese reinvented Buddhism to satisfy their wants and desires. Originally Buddhism was meant to only last 500 years so the Chinese and Japanese created new periods and changed a few rules like preists can now drink and have families. Originally Buddhism would not have been allowed because it was taboo to leave your family and Buddha did just that when he went to sit under a tree.
Buddhism today is popular because it has changed so much and people dont want to change their behavior or have their style cramped so they look for something they use so they can say "look im still spiritual" and if they cant find something they worship their mind (scientology) or take this and that and create something new.
some people just believe man is the final authority and thats called Humanism and it is a religeon widely practiced- it is a world view that dictates answers to key questions in life.
everyone has their religeon- systems of living with and a god- sometimes that god is nature,sometimes its all human kind, sometimes, themselves that they put all their trust in, sometimes a tool like .....science.
people have to start taking responsibility for their individual beliefs and actions related to those beliefs (implications). We ALL have beliefs even if we dont outline them or write them in a creed, and those beliefs have implications.
Religion at least is a forum where people have been asking key questions for all of time. when people come in and simply discount religion as primitive or worthless its hard for me to take them seriously because religion has stood the test of time. The critisisms i hear about any religion are usually really shallow and nothing that wasnt brought up centuries ago.
most if not all advanced societies in history had a religion or religions and a value for the spiritual.
In this situation the Lebanese Christians are caught in the middle.
BUT ... the cartoon is funny and i am not sure you were being too serious.
they don't hate israel because of their religion or because they're not arab, but because 150 years ago after largely living elsewhere for the previous millenia-and-a-half (leaving mostly of their own accord for literally greener pastures) jews began returning in large numbers, taking the land, creating farms on which only jews were allowed to work and whose benefits only jews were allowed to reap, then they kicked out the british (guess who was blowing up police and military forces before 1947) and now they kill hundreds of civilians and inflect billions of dollars of damage over two fucking soldiers. that is why people hate israel, as far as i am concerned, and that is why we should stop supporting this over-aggressive nation, and support a balance of power in the region... just like the arab states suggested at the beirut summit in 2002.
to respond to mhollenstein- my comments are not directed at any one person of course so if it doesnt apply to you personally dont take it personally. But certainly you can see my point . "dont rock the boat" is the sentimate of the "haves" and the cry of the "have nots" is "by any means necessary". The civil war in the US should it have happened? well lets talk it out your wrong and im right- so we dont need to go to war. There is a point when people have 1 of 2 choices to put up with the chance of war and be bullied for their whole lives or just get it over with. How about WWI WWII- shouldn't we just have forgiven the Nazis and the Japanese? Is there anything worth fighting for.
I heard a phrase last night "peace enforcement" sounds like an oxymoron. But it isnt its just a paradox - a seeming contradiction.
things are not as simple as people would love to make it- and "armchair diplomats" have the luxury to do that- watch tv and just cant understand how anyone would want to go to war.
Its very easy when we are secure and have no responsibility to not see the other side.
lets get it straight- nobody is for war- to assume just because people go to war that they are in support of war is just stupid.
What is peace anyway? Do the Syrians have peace? they cannot be honest about their opinions in public for fear of the secret police coming around.
To say that war is not necessary is naive- to judge that people who partake of war are "full of shit" is a little over simplistic in my opinion. People have legitimate reason to result to force- when dealing with people who are irrational. 2 wrongs dont make a right but sometimes war is the best choice.
in response to Frankloydmike-
maybe that is true what you say but its about perspective. I think your incorrect saying its not an arab or spiritual matter. You are choosing a very recent event in history but and maybe youve heard this before, this is an anchient conflict- of Biblical proportions. The Jews believe God gave them that land and the Arabs are descended from Ishmael, Isaacs brother.
I dont think, by your comment you understand the 2 different world views represented here. Or at least you are seeing it from your personal world view which of course we all do. It all seems irrational to go to war for something you believe in because you never have had to resort to that.
so how far do we go back? 4000 years 200 years.
so we as European Americans should leave the US and give it back to the indigenous people. But then again there were tribalwars before that. and really the land belongs to the animals.
The Jews are a spiritual people and supposed to be a nation. Israel is a country - 2 very different concepts
The Palestinians are a diasporah also-i mentioned this above in my previous post, as well as the Kurds in Iraq. People groups or nations are displaced. So why doesnt Syria just let the Palestinians(who arent even really a people group anyway) live on their land? Or the Iranians if its not about religion or being Jewish.
How much more convincing do you need to see there is an antisemitic element? There was a false propaganda book in circulation about Zionists taking over the world- Hitler read it as well as the Russian people.
Is the Isreali attack proportionate?how do you judge? I say if it leads to the destruction of Hezbollah a terrorist group who can pick and choose when they will kidnap Israeli citizens and disrupt the region at will, while holding the Lebanese Govt powerless and hostage, then it is proportionate.
I completely discount any argument that categorically says war is unnecessary- some things are worth fighting for. A legitimate question is what is worth fighting for? or when is it worth fighting for?
the failure lies with the UN once again.They set up a resolution- a bottom line- people crossed that line- and to maintain security there needs to be consequences for crossing the line (literally here- the Lebanon Israeli border). Otherwise the UN has no teeth and terrorism will continue. Which means people when they want something will just take it.
I am not serious about land belonging to animals. I am showing the rediculous implications of trying to trace where the battle started - Its nobody's land- its all of our land. in other words who threw the 1st punch- nobody remembers and it doesnt matter- really. we have to deal with today.
Which came 1st the chicken or the egg the Hitlers or the wars?
Has war or murder ever not existed? I dont get your argument or at least i dont see it as logical or reasonable. you would have to elaborate
Hitler had desires- he wanted something most likely fame or at least infammy- war needs to be implemented by people
people are the cause
wars dont start by themselves
war doesnt have a will- people do
here is the progression:
people have desires or needs
they see many ways they can get what they want or need.
they pick a way tomeet that need
if that way does not bring them what they need they try another way
sometimes that way is war.
questions:
does the end justify the means?
is what we want or need important enough to justify war?
your answer: probably no
my answer: sometimes yes but hopefully it doesnt get that far.
anyway war doesn't create Hitler - Hitlers create war by pushing people to engage then.
i would agree with the argument that Hitler was probably treated badly by people in his life - his father abandoned him etc. Love would prevent that.
The root is not war. War is not an animate object but a means to an end. the root is the sinful heart ( a heart rebelious against God- a traitor against Gods authority).
In other words the root lies with me and you and every other individual. We all want to do it our way- but of course not everyone can have their way.
people are to blame. as a society we need to hold peoplewho do bad things responsible. Who is objective enough to do that? The UN has to do it and they did not - so people chose war as a n alternative method.
"The instinctive appetites of wild animals and of men whose lives are lived naturally (i.e. in accordance with human nature) are usually healthy; one may say that natural selection has taken the place of Mind in setting a limit to the gratification of these appetites. But the appetites of civilised men are no longer reliable; the natural controls have been eliminated (by the conquest of 'Nature'); and the appetites, exacerbated by the arts of advertisement, amount to unlimited wants, to which only the disinterested Mind can set reasonable bounds." [Door in the Sky]
07/14/06 9:04
I just got a string of auto-emails set up through my brokerage account. All alerts that stocks I'm considering a purchase of have all hit my previously set buy price. Usually get one a month. Not 5 in one morning!
Long story short...the stock markets are tanking right now.
The reason...oil prices are nearing $80/barrel
Why?...There is another war starting in the middle east.
$4.00 gasoline in USA...right around the corner.
e
07/14/06 9:44
they are tanking right now. the dow is down over 1% today, lost 1.6% yesterday, and lost over 1% the day before.
rationalist
07/14/06 10:28
Goddamn it. I JUST started my 401k, too.
dot
07/14/06 10:35
i wouldn't call it tanking. trading volume is low so it is not as if there is massive sell-off happening. just people waiting on the sidelines to buy.
puddles
07/14/06 12:03
unless you are selling...then it's better to have low prices.
buy low, sell high
Ok these little conversation was earlier on the list of posts- i am not trying to single people out but draw attention to this example-
think about the content, the fears or concerns, very casual conversation.
this is what people talk about in the US. these are the things that concern us about war- $ 4 at the pump? nobody ever writes songs about blaming the indivual people of the US for war- they like to blame a nameless faceless hooded someone or just blame the president.
War is the result of the collective desires of men- its our value system. As long as i am making "progress" the world is right but dont disrupt my plan. I include myself in this accusation- and that is what is so scary. I can't help the constant battle to take what is mine- to carve out my niche.
the cornucopia quote: I think i have to read it a few times more- hard to wrap my brain around the poetry of it all-
Wow - it's almost like this war in Israel isn't even beginning!
One of the big problems i have with the whole issue is that the value of life seems to be taken totally differently by the media- when a life is a life - whoever's side it's on.
It infuriates me that One Israeli is rougly equivalent to 16 Lebanese/Palestinian/Iraqi's or Afghans or whatever. This ridiculous assumption is I think partly what is perpetuating the struggle on all side- Lebabnon and certainly Palestine are made to feel inferior/less developed in order to overcompensate for the american supported right for Israel to exist which in turn makes them more desperate to assert themselves.
Fine Hezbullah may well be supported by Syria and Iran. On paper perhaps this even looks threatening to Israel. Israel however can buy all the weapons it wants- supported no doubt by massive funding for the usa, which effectivelty feeds back to itself, through arms sales that probably come from america. Israel so far has been able to be the older brother bully to both Palestine and Lebabnon.
Like a spoiled child not only does Israel have all the toys, but can beat up younger siblings eith impunity while still not being punished by mother of father america.
On the other side I can completely see that Israel is surrounded by countries that generally wish it would cease to exist. To me surely it would make more sense to be whiter than white- to be better than all the terrorists- and present yourself as the innocent party.
Tima and time again in the broad tin of whitewash that is 'self defence' Israel has perpetuated extraordinary actions. Im criticising Israle in all of this - because we can blame all other actions on terrorists (Hezbollah etc)
BUT we dont called Israel a terrorist?
What other county could possibly get away with targeted assasinations in broad daylight in a country that is not its own?
What country could possibly claim that destoying road links that allow evacuation to another counrty- that in no way accesses its own frontier could be self defence?
And all this over two soldiers?
So far Its 160 Lebanese down to about 20 israelis?
But now sow canadians have been killed so perhaps the world will do something about Israel now.
I think thats what the UN is for.....Until somebody just had to veto.
Thanks.
has anybody mentioned the Jew factor yet? even i'm jewish and can see it!
Hezbolahlahlah is connected with and part of the Lebanese government, the Lebonese Govt was supposed to dis arm HEZ according to the UN resolution. They didnt they are sleeping with terrorists and they will take the responsibility of each other's actions- as one group.
this is why Israeli action is not disproportionate. Iran, syria and the extremists have announced that they want to see Israel wiped out of existence they have proclaime dtheir intent of genocide.
Isreal has been willing to recognize a palestinian state at least-
Nobody wants the Palestinians to take their land. This is the same situation as the Kurds-Why not just wipe the Israelis off the map and we can all enjoy a region that is pure Arab.
The Lebanon people dont want the palestinians or HEZies (at least most reasonable people).
Why? it causes instability and brings in a bad element- terrorists with short tempers who are stupid and do irrational things.
Iran, Syria, Hez, palestinians have all said they dont want peace they want to get rid of Israel not because of things Isreal has done but because they are not Arab.
this is no secret. how does the rest of the world deal with this. they dont even play by the rules of combat engagement- they dont even attempt to hit military targets they deliberately target civilians.
yah Israel is more powerful- so stupid- dont pick a fight with them and then cry because they have bigger guns.
Lebanon is facing the consequences of siding with terrorists and Iran and Syria, and the Palestinians will face the same consequences. That is the message.
Some arab nations always cry because the US intervenes but that is not the real issue - They want the US to intervene on their behalf.
why don't we? because arab nations hold values that are contrary to ours on the most basic levels.
History will show you that we will help anyone if it is to our benefit and fits with what we believe in- look at Japan- right or wrong we will help Iran if they work with the US and the rest of the world- alot of times it has gotten us in trouble doing this sort of diplomacy.
I dont mean we will help if they do what we say- but they have to throw us a bone-
the problem is Israel has caved in the past to terrorism by trading prisoners with the Palestinians- that was a mistake- it sent the meassage that if you want something you just take it or threaten to kill.
BUSH is right in drawing a line in the sand with terrorists- he might not have picked the best platform or fight to make his point. I grew up with Iran kidnapping US citizens- planes were hijacked on a regular basis.
The previous presidents were soft on terrorism and have created the mess we are in- BUSH inherited the current world climate. My God not too long ago we were fighting the Russians and aiding anyone who would help us do that. Now we are best friends with the Russians and trying to nudge them toward a more democratic effort and Russia wants to be a bigger part of world trade. We can work with that.
People with no responsibility make unreasonable statements about the President with no proof just accusations. This is the hardest job on the planet.
if you want to show you are committed to peace in the middle east dont use so much oil- The corporations are not the problem. Individuals in the US use 24 barrells of Oil a year!!!! so 300,000 americans use more than the 1.2 Billion Chinese!!!
The demand creates the need the need creates the war.
Ask not what your country (or president )can do for you , ask what you can do for your country!!!
Freedom comes with responsibility!!!
Think about it how does your Indonesian coffe get to your kitchen? It is by boat, or plane, then trucked to the grocery, then packaged, then you drive to the store to get it. Energy is needed at every stage. Buy local blah blah blah blah Hezbalahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
"Some arab nations always cry because the US intervenes but that is not the real issue - They want the US to intervene on their behalf.
why don't we? because arab nations hold values that are contrary to ours on the most basic levels. "
there should be a "some arab nations" with the second statement as well- i dont mean all arab nations
sorry about such a long post- its a long history
why don't they all grow up!!!?!!?!
war is an outdated concept
its like watching a binch of kids in a sand pit (literally, haha)
they deserve each other i guess
haha. i wrote binch. it should have read bunch.
its easy to say no war absolutly when you have everything you want and need. thats like saying curbing behavior is outdated. Like with kids who act up in public. They act up because discipline- and diplomacy has failed and so now a spanking is needed or some form of punishment for the wrong action committed by the child.
i agree with the sentiment though- it shouldn't be needed and should be outdated-
but its evolution- all of our benefits were gained through force, war, or violence in the west- and now we want them to use diplomacy? talking and the like.
think about where the refugees are being evacuated to Cyprus- it was invaded and occupied by Turkey in '74
the moderate Arab nations need to form a coalition/un type force but they are affraid so they let us do their dirty work-
unfortunately citizens suffer because of the actions of their governments.
if Israel did not invade Lebanon the un resolutions would never be enforced.
this is the same reason we resumed the fighting in Iraq after 10 years- time doesn't heal all wounds. We never ended the 1st war. it was a cease fire. We went to war the first time because they were invading their neighbors and spreading dictatorship- which increases the instability of the area and therefore world economics- and that directly affects us.
Syria, Iran, Iraq need to have their behavior curbed and since other arab nations in the region are too close for discomfort or they support terrorists themselves someone else has to do something.
guess who- people always bitch about the US "meddling" but we have prevented the spread of communism
its messy of course- because people are messy.
i said the US has prevented communism from spreading - thats obviously not completely correct and and overstatement- but we were a significant force- it is falling because the idea is dependant upon people being inherantly good- and selfless and well don't we have enough proof yet to know people are bent toward evil
that is why none of us can judge and point fingers
if somebody threatened to take away your cellphone or Latte, or parking space, never mind kill your family you wouldn't be shouting peace peace.
fear fear is more like it- then hate hate- then ill kill you if you dont give me back my tall skinny no foam latte!!!
drink smoothies and renounce all violence.
I can't beleive that it's religion again that causes this hate and murder. Jew, Muslim, Christian - they are all agressors. Take up Buddhism and live in peace.
Hilldomain - the US is amazing and good and we all should know it...
if you can't believe its religion thats causing all the trouble thats because that would be unbelievable because religion doesn't have a will.
religion doesn't cause hate and murder- maybe the distortion of belief systems.
Buddhism didn't prevent Japan from committing the Nan King masacres. or bombing Pearl Harbor while we weren't watching.
but then again the Japanese and the Chinese reinvented Buddhism to satisfy their wants and desires. Originally Buddhism was meant to only last 500 years so the Chinese and Japanese created new periods and changed a few rules like preists can now drink and have families. Originally Buddhism would not have been allowed because it was taboo to leave your family and Buddha did just that when he went to sit under a tree.
Buddhism today is popular because it has changed so much and people dont want to change their behavior or have their style cramped so they look for something they use so they can say "look im still spiritual" and if they cant find something they worship their mind (scientology) or take this and that and create something new.
some people just believe man is the final authority and thats called Humanism and it is a religeon widely practiced- it is a world view that dictates answers to key questions in life.
everyone has their religeon- systems of living with and a god- sometimes that god is nature,sometimes its all human kind, sometimes, themselves that they put all their trust in, sometimes a tool like .....science.
people have to start taking responsibility for their individual beliefs and actions related to those beliefs (implications). We ALL have beliefs even if we dont outline them or write them in a creed, and those beliefs have implications.
Religion at least is a forum where people have been asking key questions for all of time. when people come in and simply discount religion as primitive or worthless its hard for me to take them seriously because religion has stood the test of time. The critisisms i hear about any religion are usually really shallow and nothing that wasnt brought up centuries ago.
most if not all advanced societies in history had a religion or religions and a value for the spiritual.
In this situation the Lebanese Christians are caught in the middle.
BUT ... the cartoon is funny and i am not sure you were being too serious.
they don't hate israel because of their religion or because they're not arab, but because 150 years ago after largely living elsewhere for the previous millenia-and-a-half (leaving mostly of their own accord for literally greener pastures) jews began returning in large numbers, taking the land, creating farms on which only jews were allowed to work and whose benefits only jews were allowed to reap, then they kicked out the british (guess who was blowing up police and military forces before 1947) and now they kill hundreds of civilians and inflect billions of dollars of damage over two fucking soldiers. that is why people hate israel, as far as i am concerned, and that is why we should stop supporting this over-aggressive nation, and support a balance of power in the region... just like the arab states suggested at the beirut summit in 2002.
what is driving these wars? its not the good of the people. therefore anybody who partakes is full of shit.
i saw the isreali ambassador to the US speaking on tv last night saying how their attacks have been proportionate to what the Hezbollah have done.
firstly WTF? secondly. doesn't this sound like two kids running to mummy, but he hit me first!?!?
War just pisses me off. and hilldomain, it has nothing to do with having everything i want or need. very rude buddy.
to respond to mhollenstein- my comments are not directed at any one person of course so if it doesnt apply to you personally dont take it personally. But certainly you can see my point . "dont rock the boat" is the sentimate of the "haves" and the cry of the "have nots" is "by any means necessary". The civil war in the US should it have happened? well lets talk it out your wrong and im right- so we dont need to go to war. There is a point when people have 1 of 2 choices to put up with the chance of war and be bullied for their whole lives or just get it over with. How about WWI WWII- shouldn't we just have forgiven the Nazis and the Japanese? Is there anything worth fighting for.
I heard a phrase last night "peace enforcement" sounds like an oxymoron. But it isnt its just a paradox - a seeming contradiction.
things are not as simple as people would love to make it- and "armchair diplomats" have the luxury to do that- watch tv and just cant understand how anyone would want to go to war.
Its very easy when we are secure and have no responsibility to not see the other side.
lets get it straight- nobody is for war- to assume just because people go to war that they are in support of war is just stupid.
What is peace anyway? Do the Syrians have peace? they cannot be honest about their opinions in public for fear of the secret police coming around.
To say that war is not necessary is naive- to judge that people who partake of war are "full of shit" is a little over simplistic in my opinion. People have legitimate reason to result to force- when dealing with people who are irrational. 2 wrongs dont make a right but sometimes war is the best choice.
in response to Frankloydmike-
maybe that is true what you say but its about perspective. I think your incorrect saying its not an arab or spiritual matter. You are choosing a very recent event in history but and maybe youve heard this before, this is an anchient conflict- of Biblical proportions. The Jews believe God gave them that land and the Arabs are descended from Ishmael, Isaacs brother.
I dont think, by your comment you understand the 2 different world views represented here. Or at least you are seeing it from your personal world view which of course we all do. It all seems irrational to go to war for something you believe in because you never have had to resort to that.
so how far do we go back? 4000 years 200 years.
so we as European Americans should leave the US and give it back to the indigenous people. But then again there were tribalwars before that. and really the land belongs to the animals.
The Jews are a spiritual people and supposed to be a nation. Israel is a country - 2 very different concepts
The Palestinians are a diasporah also-i mentioned this above in my previous post, as well as the Kurds in Iraq. People groups or nations are displaced. So why doesnt Syria just let the Palestinians(who arent even really a people group anyway) live on their land? Or the Iranians if its not about religion or being Jewish.
How much more convincing do you need to see there is an antisemitic element? There was a false propaganda book in circulation about Zionists taking over the world- Hitler read it as well as the Russian people.
Is the Isreali attack proportionate?how do you judge? I say if it leads to the destruction of Hezbollah a terrorist group who can pick and choose when they will kidnap Israeli citizens and disrupt the region at will, while holding the Lebanese Govt powerless and hostage, then it is proportionate.
I completely discount any argument that categorically says war is unnecessary- some things are worth fighting for. A legitimate question is what is worth fighting for? or when is it worth fighting for?
the failure lies with the UN once again.They set up a resolution- a bottom line- people crossed that line- and to maintain security there needs to be consequences for crossing the line (literally here- the Lebanon Israeli border). Otherwise the UN has no teeth and terrorism will continue. Which means people when they want something will just take it.
you need to go to the root of the problem to find its solution.
if war didn't exist, there would have been no hitler. if theere is no first punch, there needn't be a second.
also, "the land belongs to the animals"? shouldn't this then stand for every piece of earth?
I am not serious about land belonging to animals. I am showing the rediculous implications of trying to trace where the battle started - Its nobody's land- its all of our land. in other words who threw the 1st punch- nobody remembers and it doesnt matter- really. we have to deal with today.
Which came 1st the chicken or the egg the Hitlers or the wars?
Has war or murder ever not existed? I dont get your argument or at least i dont see it as logical or reasonable. you would have to elaborate
Hitler had desires- he wanted something most likely fame or at least infammy- war needs to be implemented by people
people are the cause
wars dont start by themselves
war doesnt have a will- people do
here is the progression:
people have desires or needs
they see many ways they can get what they want or need.
they pick a way tomeet that need
if that way does not bring them what they need they try another way
sometimes that way is war.
questions:
does the end justify the means?
is what we want or need important enough to justify war?
your answer: probably no
my answer: sometimes yes but hopefully it doesnt get that far.
anyway war doesn't create Hitler - Hitlers create war by pushing people to engage then.
i would agree with the argument that Hitler was probably treated badly by people in his life - his father abandoned him etc. Love would prevent that.
The root is not war. War is not an animate object but a means to an end. the root is the sinful heart ( a heart rebelious against God- a traitor against Gods authority).
In other words the root lies with me and you and every other individual. We all want to do it our way- but of course not everyone can have their way.
people are to blame. as a society we need to hold peoplewho do bad things responsible. Who is objective enough to do that? The UN has to do it and they did not - so people chose war as a n alternative method.
"The instinctive appetites of wild animals and of men whose lives are lived naturally (i.e. in accordance with human nature) are usually healthy; one may say that natural selection has taken the place of Mind in setting a limit to the gratification of these appetites. But the appetites of civilised men are no longer reliable; the natural controls have been eliminated (by the conquest of 'Nature'); and the appetites, exacerbated by the arts of advertisement, amount to unlimited wants, to which only the disinterested Mind can set reasonable bounds." [Door in the Sky]
Cornucopia, 280-270 BC...
07/14/06 9:04
I just got a string of auto-emails set up through my brokerage account. All alerts that stocks I'm considering a purchase of have all hit my previously set buy price. Usually get one a month. Not 5 in one morning!
Long story short...the stock markets are tanking right now.
The reason...oil prices are nearing $80/barrel
Why?...There is another war starting in the middle east.
$4.00 gasoline in USA...right around the corner.
e
07/14/06 9:44
they are tanking right now. the dow is down over 1% today, lost 1.6% yesterday, and lost over 1% the day before.
rationalist
07/14/06 10:28
Goddamn it. I JUST started my 401k, too.
dot
07/14/06 10:35
i wouldn't call it tanking. trading volume is low so it is not as if there is massive sell-off happening. just people waiting on the sidelines to buy.
puddles
07/14/06 12:03
unless you are selling...then it's better to have low prices.
buy low, sell high
Ok these little conversation was earlier on the list of posts- i am not trying to single people out but draw attention to this example-
think about the content, the fears or concerns, very casual conversation.
this is what people talk about in the US. these are the things that concern us about war- $ 4 at the pump? nobody ever writes songs about blaming the indivual people of the US for war- they like to blame a nameless faceless hooded someone or just blame the president.
War is the result of the collective desires of men- its our value system. As long as i am making "progress" the world is right but dont disrupt my plan. I include myself in this accusation- and that is what is so scary. I can't help the constant battle to take what is mine- to carve out my niche.
the cornucopia quote: I think i have to read it a few times more- hard to wrap my brain around the poetry of it all-
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