have a look at the entries for the competition.
the winner is the ugliest, boringest, crappiest project of the lot, with images so bad that even soulikeit could judge them on his own without starting a thread.
well you can't really judge a building based on its rendering. it might have been given a low rating for the quality of the presentation (which might not exist) but a high value for the quality of the building--its ideas that might not be reflected in the picture. good architecture goes way beyond looking flashy or exciting..idea behind the work is really important too.
i read the description of the winning scheme, and it does have a strong concept, and its relationship to the rest of the city is also strong. i prefer the elegance of the 2nd placed scheme though. and the rest of the schemes are quite shallow in concept and resolution.
Why do you make generalization about Italian architects as corrupt lazyazz spagetti eaters? Believe me you eat spagetti more than Italians. Any doubt about Italian design and architecture? Did you meet with anyone who went to Italy and not fascinated by Italian architecture of ages? How about if they say the same like Corrupt lazyass hamburger eaters?
i think that tracing lines on a map of the city and making that a series of paths in an urban park does not ammount to good Architecture.
Nor does a huge hollow triple height space, that looks more like a warehouse than a forum.
and the total lack of engagement with the sorrounding (although it is mentioned in the descirption)...th edescription states that the building should be carefully placed in context...and the solution is a box in the middle of a park?!
at least they spared us the "offset windows" elevation.
yes, i have met people fascinated by the italian Architecture of ages, but never met anyone who is fascinated by anything built or designed in the last 20 years.
by the way, it would be nice to see who wrote the brief (probably the politecnico) and who is on the panel (probably gregotti).
haha.."In Bigness, the distance between core and envelope increases to the point where "You'" can no longer reveal what happens inside." Oh now I understand 'Bigness..Too much spagetti syndrome:)
i like labics and ian+ quite a lot, metrogramma i like in the sense that most of the stuff i've seen reminds me of early OMA, but i have never looked at them in depth.
there's about 10 offices worth looking at in the country (not my opinion, luigi prestinenza puglisi's opinion) which is veeeeeery little in a country as big as france, germany and the UK. they are by no means a leitmotiv, or a sample of what is going on, but more of an exception.
i thing those guys should get places in the universities teaching design, if they don't already.
don't know...you have decoi!:)
is the rest of the architects in the country doing this?
[img]http://www.newitalianblood.it/progetti/images/2244.jpg
[/img]
don't know...you have decoi!:)
is the rest of the architects in the country doing this?
[img]http://www.newitalianblood.it/progetti/images/2244.jpg
[/img]
nah but most of the stuff that gets built looks like that....
so all in all, you know...
I take your point about decoi, but Mark goulthorpe is english and most of their work is done outside france so the only french thing about them is probably the fact that they're based in paris...
yeah, i know, that's why the smily face.
i am still wondering why he set up his practice there.
nice archicad rendering there!
i guess i could immagine france being in the same situation as italy. how is the university/research there? i had a brief encounter with a faculty in paris (can tremember the name...the academie? the building is across the road from the jean nouvel glass building...) and work was good if not a bit restrained. i think that's the main problem, not enough design is being thought in italian schools, and whatever is, is being tought by people with a stranglehold on innovation...
in the uk for example, most design teachers are your architects, with their own practice, keen on bringing foward some kind of discourse, i think that really has an impact on what you learn in school
There are only "names" in world architectural scene right now whose design's we are mostly talking about like Hadid, Koolhaas, Libeskind, Tschumi etc. (I do not say that thats what should be though) All of them belong to different countries. When we talk about Hadid we dont refer to British architecture or Hadid's home country) There are of course new waves, emerging architects that are influencing other architects in the same country so you can partially talk about their work referring to their homeland. If there is no good architecture in Italy in the last 20 years (perhaps after Rossi's generation) then the reason must be somewhere...mostly at architectural education and at the University's system as an instituation which Giancarlo is a good example of criticising that years ago. Also Italy's losing its avangardist view..which is very much related with it's social, political and institutional structure..the most unbelieveable example was Berluscuni's years of prime ministering in Italy as a media patron...just one case from politics.
The school across the Cartier building is the Ecole Speciale d'Architecture. it's private so quite progressive compared to most French Schools. French schools are generally very traditional and academic in the way they teach, with very little focus on research and innovation. The design process is often controled by old dinosaurs who tell you what's right and what's wrong... in many ways it's still very much a beaux arts system, hence the lack of avant-garde and really interesting stuff on the french architectural scene right now. pathetic...
Want to add something...Rossi's, Scarpa's, Giancarlo de Carlo's leaving or their refusal from the architectural education system, from the University's... Dont they say something about what I wrote?
Lets say I am in touch with some Italian architects whom are my close friends...know and can interpretate arch. history of Italy and it's discourses but do not consider myself as expert..Discuss about Italian architecture with friends very often... Have great fascination with design culture of Italy... Not good in your language though..as wish I were..but I understand most of the writings if they are about architecture...many times using dictionary though:) This summer I ll be there hopefully..want to stay sometime in Milan and Vicenza related with architecture. My argument here began here not about the competition but what you said about Italian architects... corrupt lazyass spaghetti eaters stuff..By the way I have some roots with the country from grand anchestors also..but too long story..better do not consider it
jasmin, i believe that the problem with italian architects at the moment is the attitude.
recently i have been considering moving back, and all the people i know in the industry there are advising me against it, because things are crap, there is no interesting work, etc...but no one seems to be doing anything more than their 9 to 5 work, no one is trying to change things. there is this "things are shit and there is nothing i can do" attitude, which is very italian. we do have a tendency to get lazy and moan. if you add that to the slow death of culture...
competitions are run and judged always by the same people, the universities are under the rule of professors with a foot in the bauhaus and one in the grave, everybody knows this is wrong, yet very little is being done about it.
i'm actually curious to see what can be actually achieved there. mind you, i have no connections to the establishment and no way into "cool" offices, i would love to be able to chat with someone who has a different perspective or is actually doing interesting work. we'll see.
ap, i remeber the louvre project, very nice i think.
is he french of italian origin or actually italian (not that that makes any difference, just curious)
Bigness..All my friends whom are architects and designers say the same. You are certainly right about that. But what I hear from them are what I wrote in my previous messages...The problem with the system in all means..Of course you can add people's attitutes to it also. A friend of mine lately had his PhD from Genova University after having practice some years. What I heard from him was unbelievable. He couldnt able to find any format to write his thesis bec there was no format that the faculty was asking..(By the way he was out of his country at the time he was writing his thesis) His juries were not ever scheduled..they were according to prof's..they could change any moment and postpone to months later..He wanted to be a prof at any University however there were no vacancies for three years so if you want to work you have to work without getting paid for months...thats what many people are doing. They dont have job opening but there were so less people in that faculties who have been working there for years and years..
milan school of fashion competition
have a look at the entries for the competition.
the winner is the ugliest, boringest, crappiest project of the lot, with images so bad that even soulikeit could judge them on his own without starting a thread.
aaaaaaaaarrgh!
any reasonable explenations why?
it's more of a rant than anything...
well you can't really judge a building based on its rendering. it might have been given a low rating for the quality of the presentation (which might not exist) but a high value for the quality of the building--its ideas that might not be reflected in the picture. good architecture goes way beyond looking flashy or exciting..idea behind the work is really important too.
yeah, have a look at the plans.
seriously, can you browse thru the entries and say that the winner deserved it?
i hate italian architects. corrupt lazyass spaghetti eaters.
i read the description of the winning scheme, and it does have a strong concept, and its relationship to the rest of the city is also strong. i prefer the elegance of the 2nd placed scheme though. and the rest of the schemes are quite shallow in concept and resolution.
Why do you make generalization about Italian architects as corrupt lazyazz spagetti eaters? Believe me you eat spagetti more than Italians. Any doubt about Italian design and architecture? Did you meet with anyone who went to Italy and not fascinated by Italian architecture of ages? How about if they say the same like Corrupt lazyass hamburger eaters?
haha jasmin, you don't know bigness' real name I guess...
Dont tell me that he is Italian..what is his name by the way?:)
mwahahaha .. that's quite a rant jasmin ...
Bigness is Italian .. hahaha
just so that you know .... :)
i think that tracing lines on a map of the city and making that a series of paths in an urban park does not ammount to good Architecture.
Nor does a huge hollow triple height space, that looks more like a warehouse than a forum.
and the total lack of engagement with the sorrounding (although it is mentioned in the descirption)...th edescription states that the building should be carefully placed in context...and the solution is a box in the middle of a park?!
at least they spared us the "offset windows" elevation.
yes, i have met people fascinated by the italian Architecture of ages, but never met anyone who is fascinated by anything built or designed in the last 20 years.
by the way, it would be nice to see who wrote the brief (probably the politecnico) and who is on the panel (probably gregotti).
haha.."In Bigness, the distance between core and envelope increases to the point where "You'" can no longer reveal what happens inside." Oh now I understand 'Bigness..Too much spagetti syndrome:)
your point being?
What do you think about IaN+ in Rome, Cliostraat in Turin and Metrogramma in Milan? Do you see them as a leitmotiv for the Italian architecture?
i like labics and ian+ quite a lot, metrogramma i like in the sense that most of the stuff i've seen reminds me of early OMA, but i have never looked at them in depth.
there's about 10 offices worth looking at in the country (not my opinion, luigi prestinenza puglisi's opinion) which is veeeeeery little in a country as big as france, germany and the UK. they are by no means a leitmotiv, or a sample of what is going on, but more of an exception.
i thing those guys should get places in the universities teaching design, if they don't already.
Do you think there is more than 10 architects worth looking at in france right now??
don't know...you have decoi!:)
is the rest of the architects in the country doing this?
[img]http://www.newitalianblood.it/progetti/images/2244.jpg
[/img]
don't know...you have decoi!:)
is the rest of the architects in the country doing this?
[img]http://www.newitalianblood.it/progetti/images/2244.jpg
[/img]
nah but most of the stuff that gets built looks like that....
so all in all, you know...
I take your point about decoi, but Mark goulthorpe is english and most of their work is done outside france so the only french thing about them is probably the fact that they're based in paris...
yeah, i know, that's why the smily face.
i am still wondering why he set up his practice there.
nice archicad rendering there!
i guess i could immagine france being in the same situation as italy. how is the university/research there? i had a brief encounter with a faculty in paris (can tremember the name...the academie? the building is across the road from the jean nouvel glass building...) and work was good if not a bit restrained. i think that's the main problem, not enough design is being thought in italian schools, and whatever is, is being tought by people with a stranglehold on innovation...
in the uk for example, most design teachers are your architects, with their own practice, keen on bringing foward some kind of discourse, i think that really has an impact on what you learn in school
There are only "names" in world architectural scene right now whose design's we are mostly talking about like Hadid, Koolhaas, Libeskind, Tschumi etc. (I do not say that thats what should be though) All of them belong to different countries. When we talk about Hadid we dont refer to British architecture or Hadid's home country) There are of course new waves, emerging architects that are influencing other architects in the same country so you can partially talk about their work referring to their homeland. If there is no good architecture in Italy in the last 20 years (perhaps after Rossi's generation) then the reason must be somewhere...mostly at architectural education and at the University's system as an instituation which Giancarlo is a good example of criticising that years ago. Also Italy's losing its avangardist view..which is very much related with it's social, political and institutional structure..the most unbelieveable example was Berluscuni's years of prime ministering in Italy as a media patron...just one case from politics.
Want to add something...Rossi's, Scarpa's, Giancarlo de Carlo's leaving or their refusal from the education system
The school across the Cartier building is the Ecole Speciale d'Architecture. it's private so quite progressive compared to most French Schools. French schools are generally very traditional and academic in the way they teach, with very little focus on research and innovation. The design process is often controled by old dinosaurs who tell you what's right and what's wrong... in many ways it's still very much a beaux arts system, hence the lack of avant-garde and really interesting stuff on the french architectural scene right now. pathetic...
Want to add something...Rossi's, Scarpa's, Giancarlo de Carlo's leaving or their refusal from the architectural education system, from the University's... Dont they say something about what I wrote?
yeah, the cultural landscape (or lack of it) is certainly to blame. And the university, as i said in my earlier post.
jasmin, do you work or study in italy? since you were able to read the project descriptions i assume you at least speak italian.
i think berlusconi was the result of the situation, rather than the cause.
, un architetto francese chi ha particepato nella questa concorso con 5+1AA, fa tanti buon progetti che "loro" descrivono "avante-garde."
or "bei progetti..."
ehehe, doesn't look that avantgarde to me, but then again it's debatable.
ap, that was too good for a babelfish translation...good italian!
Lets say I am in touch with some Italian architects whom are my close friends...know and can interpretate arch. history of Italy and it's discourses but do not consider myself as expert..Discuss about Italian architecture with friends very often... Have great fascination with design culture of Italy... Not good in your language though..as wish I were..but I understand most of the writings if they are about architecture...many times using dictionary though:) This summer I ll be there hopefully..want to stay sometime in Milan and Vicenza related with architecture. My argument here began here not about the competition but what you said about Italian architects... corrupt lazyass spaghetti eaters stuff..By the way I have some roots with the country from grand anchestors also..but too long story..better do not consider it
thanks...great teachers....
and the work on the euroconcorsi site (of Riciotti's) does not demonstrate the degree of 'avante garde' in his work as a whole....
Vicenza is a great city, Flavio Albanese has a practice there...very elegant work...not well known though...
jasmin, i believe that the problem with italian architects at the moment is the attitude.
recently i have been considering moving back, and all the people i know in the industry there are advising me against it, because things are crap, there is no interesting work, etc...but no one seems to be doing anything more than their 9 to 5 work, no one is trying to change things. there is this "things are shit and there is nothing i can do" attitude, which is very italian. we do have a tendency to get lazy and moan. if you add that to the slow death of culture...
competitions are run and judged always by the same people, the universities are under the rule of professors with a foot in the bauhaus and one in the grave, everybody knows this is wrong, yet very little is being done about it.
i'm actually curious to see what can be actually achieved there. mind you, i have no connections to the establishment and no way into "cool" offices, i would love to be able to chat with someone who has a different perspective or is actually doing interesting work. we'll see.
ap, i remeber the louvre project, very nice i think.
is he french of italian origin or actually italian (not that that makes any difference, just curious)
Bigness..All my friends whom are architects and designers say the same. You are certainly right about that. But what I hear from them are what I wrote in my previous messages...The problem with the system in all means..Of course you can add people's attitutes to it also. A friend of mine lately had his PhD from Genova University after having practice some years. What I heard from him was unbelievable. He couldnt able to find any format to write his thesis bec there was no format that the faculty was asking..(By the way he was out of his country at the time he was writing his thesis) His juries were not ever scheduled..they were according to prof's..they could change any moment and postpone to months later..He wanted to be a prof at any University however there were no vacancies for three years so if you want to work you have to work without getting paid for months...thats what many people are doing. They dont have job opening but there were so less people in that faculties who have been working there for years and years..
Rudy Ricciotti is Algerian born, Italian origine I think and french nationality..??
he's french i think. there are A LOT of people with italian or spanish names in france.
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