if you have anything else to say about either GSD or MIT, kindly shut your face.

i didn't think my post dignified that sort of response, i'm sorry if you found it offensive.

why do you seem so upset? thanks, at least, for bumping the topic back to the top of the list.

wow, that sounded so much more harsh than it was intended to be. you really just sound like a pretentious architect student. try to think back to the reasons why you applied to each program. it wasnt just for ivy status was it? look into yourself for these answers. you're evidently bright enough to make a good decision, right?

wow, that sounded so much more harsh than it was intended to be. you really just sound like a pretentious architect student. try to think back to the reasons why you applied to each program. it wasnt just for ivy status was it? look into yourself for these answers. you're evidently bright enough to make a good decision, right?

wow, that sounded so much more harsh than it was intended to be. you really just sound like a pretentious architect student. try to think back to the reasons why you applied to each program. it wasnt just for ivy status was it? look into yourself for these answers. you're evidently bright enough to make a good decision, right?

i feel incredibly fortunate to be in a position to make this choice, but pretentious is the last thing i mean to be. about 15 months ago i decided that instead of going to law school, i would apply to architecture school, something i had always dreamed of doing but never thought i could actually do.

after 12 months of hard work and preparation, i was ready to submit my applications. now i am faced with a choice that i didn't think i would have even in my wildest dreams. i will be the first to admit that i do feel a great deal of pride in having gotten to this point. i also feel very lucky, i have had some wonderful people supporting me and helping me along.

i live in boston and want to stay in the area. i am very lucky to have these two incredible schools just across the river. even moreso, i have been accepted to both. they are, and they will be the first to admit it, two schools with very different approaches. they both appeal to me equally, but in different ways. i am merely posting here in hopes that others can share their ideas and thoughts on the schools. i know other people have other experiences and insights, and i would appreciate it if they were to share those.

i am not complaining, in any sense, about having to make this decision. i do not wish to frame it as a "problem" because i know it is a situation many people would love to be in. i merely wish to look to those with more experience than i for whatever guidance they have to offer.

: maybe you'd find it useful to just let this thread die and then start a new one with a simpler premise and a simpler question.

i see your point; however, please understand that everyone has tried equally as hard in their pursuits and beginning a thread with "finances will not be a determining factor" between GSD and MIT is a bit of a kick in the ass to many. no reason why you shouldn't be proud and thrilled about your hard work or where it got you. i, personally, would have presented my questions without providing that information. simply, "i'm interested in learning more about the fundamental differences in resources/pedagogical approaches/alumni networking/etc. between gsd and mit." see?

congratulations to you, just the same.

i see both your points, thank you.

when i said finances will not be the determining factor, i meant that i will be swamped with endless loans from both schools, not that i'm wealthy and/or given tremendous grants. i can understand the confusion, however.

many people have pointed to the fact that MIT used to be a lot more generous with financial aid than the GSD and suggested that i use finances as a determinant. in this case, i've found their grants to be roughly equivalent and their loan packages to be equally overwhelming, so making a decision based on money is out the window.

i wanted to create a detailed post to give others specific things to respond to, as i've found the very general posts tend to stay very general. maybe this thread needs to fade away, or maybe people can start chipping in with their thoughts on the actual subject on had, as simplified by S.

better.

jualn

i think it is a very personal choice. GSD is a great program with some solid full time faculty and tons of other students to draw from. GSD along with other ivies does pull in the starchitects and many of the students I know who have taken their studios feel a bit cheated. The big names fly in once a month or so, making it hard for much interaction. That being said, GSD has plenty of studios at the upper level by great instructors who are dedicated to the students.

MIT makes you pick an area of focus for your theis work. You have plenty of oppurtunity to investigate in your first year or two. Harvard does the same.......you must pick your thesis area or topic during your third year and work with an advisor in addition to all your other classes. I don't think there is a ton of difference in that department.

Both schools have a great balance of theory and practice. I don't think you would be let down with either.

The big difference is the size. Perhaps since you have little to no (I am assuming) architecture experience, it would be better to see projects from hundreds of other students. That can be a real advantage.
MIT on the otherhand, having such a small class size, allows very intensive work directly with professors. To some that is more attractive......I happen to lean towards MIT.

Either way it is a great choice to have to make, but a personal one.
good luck............

jualn,
thanks for your honest and insightful post. welcome to the brute world of architecture; prepare for pervasive scrutinization from egotistical hipsters that somehow convince themsevles of intrinsic rightness. as a student at one of these schools, i can say that if you are a critical and engaged students, you will forget about the school you did not chose once you make a decision. Go with what feels right, and forget the calculus that people will tell you about size, intimacy, professor accessibility, etc. in truth, your experience will be up to you--it falls onto you to take advantage of these fantastic schools in the way that is most compelling. visit, and if anything, don't talk to students. architecture students are whiny, and they blame the school for the shortfalls that they perceive, so often because they are simply vain. good luck with your decision. just make it and dive in; there's no equation for this.

Jualn,
I also got accepted to both MIT and GSD...I'm sure I'll see at the open house events on April 6 and 7th!

As for the schools, I've done some research, and it seems like, through the website's student projects gallery, that MIT is very craft based - lots of model building, instead of CAD and computer graphics focused such as Columbia's GSAPP. GSD seems to have a balance of the two (CAD and model building). Also, I have a concern that MIT will mix us up with the undergrad arch students. I have nothing against undergrad students, but I would prefer that I work with ppl of similar maturity levels, goals, and experiences. Additionally, I am worried that resources, faculty, space and funding would be split with the undergrad, which would detract from the grad program. GSD doesn't have this problem because there are no undergrad programs.

This might not be relevant to you at all, but I'm Chinese, so the fact that Yung Ho Chang (also a native Chinese, but American trained) is chair of MIT, is a large attractive factor. Of course, i don't expect to gain any employment connections from him, but I think it is very symbolic and meaningful to be in a program chaired by a architectural giant from China!

Nonetheless, I am leaning towards GSD, because the studio space is incredible, the faculty is strong, and most of all, I will be working with arguably the best architecture students in the world. Coming from Stanford undergrad, I can tell you that the most valuable asset a program has is its people - your peers, faculty and connections. GSD can't be beat in this realm.

Oh, and of course, the name....Harvard. Not to be superficial, but Harvard is Harvard. (Although MIT also carries a very strong name)

I'm still confused, I will let going to the Open House make my decision. The plot thickens with me because MIT was VERY generous with their offer, and I dont know if I can AFFORD to turn it down. I was accepted to AP in both schools (2.5 yrs). I have more friends at the GSD and of course they are talking it up a lot.

I am having the same internal debate, I like what I see from the GSD I like their faculty, and I like their research. Ethics (Environmental and social issues) are a HUGE for me, I think MIT has the upper hand on that one. I feel like the MIT as an institution has a conscience and the GSD has name maybe feels more corporate all around. I plan to go and then decide, because I know that my intuition, my logic, and my wife will choose the best place.

+q

P.S. at first you guys were way too harsh on jualn. he is taking the time to tell us how he feels, if he has chosen these schools money CANNOT be an issue, because if it were none of us would go to any of these schools. I myself didnt want to post anything anymore because I knew that soon all these posts would begin to sound pretentious. They are not, we have deep life-altering decisions to make here, I for one cannot really afford either of these schools but will do anything needed to go to these prestigious schools (that have name for a reason: faculty, facilities, resources, research excellence, students, etc...) where I and others have worked sooo hard to be able to go to. I know that for lots of people these school threads and posts sound inconsequential, but I ask for your patience, and if you don't want to contribute don't, just don't ruin this moment for us.

thanks for these recent responses, it helps me a lot to know what others are thinking about. i know that this is a personal decision and i am thinking it over carefully and thoroughly.

i think the issue of teaching architecture in an evironmentally and socially responsible context is huge for me. i had all but written the GSD off last fall since numerous people made comments about harvard's lack of attention to those details. however, at the open house in the fall, the student panel said that they have been pushing on the faculty, hard, to no longer ignore those concerns, and that it has been working. i found this to be refreshing and i would love to be one of the people helping to push the GSD in a more socially and evironmentally responsible direction. i think that the GSD knows that if it wants to remain a leader and retain its position of prestige, it cannot continue to pass over these issues and teach design in a vacuum.

like +q, i give the edge to MIT in these two areas, but i think there is hope for harvard. i cannot decide how these factors will ultimately weigh out.

i am very much looking forward to the open houses, as i hope to really begin to feel at home at one school or the other.

again, thank you for the recent constructive posts. this is becoming the thoughtful dialogue that i had hoped to start. i know both schools are excellent and there is no way to quantify one vs. the other, but it really does help to hear which issues people feel are the most important and what factors are guiding their decision making processes.

+q : MIT, more money, yolu've studied arch before, and could benefit from specialization

jualn : GSD, money's no issue, rounded education, pick up a post-prof at MIT later if you still crave it.

jualn,
you are correct about gathering momentum at harvard in social and environmental responsibility. i think there's potential for big changes in the next couple of years in these areas.

hah! money's not THE issue! :) it certainly is AN issue, though. only the people who can afford to say it doesn't matter.

Leidio what do you mean? Would you please explain more about GSD efforts in this area (environmental/social)? Are students asked for input as the program moves that way?
If so that would a great opportunity.

i realized my initial post sounded harsh and i realize all my posts wax sarcastic. my intention is not to ruin your moment +q. i think it's good to be informed about a major life decision. i also think it's good form to be a bit humble, but, you know, that's just me.

the gsd just got dinged by NAAB on social/environmental/technical issues in the lastest review i hear...fairly obvious to any in the school. its well known that the GSD has lost its best core faculty and is on to other things these days and outside of the occassional visit from matthais schuler, no environmental tech faculty at the moment. MIT has two full professor positions open this year, to be filled by individuals that are in line with Yung Ho Chang's ambitions for the school=decidly in the direction of advancing architectural practice. if you are interested in social and environmental issues, Chang and the places MIT will be going are extremely promising.

i would encourage to think about where the schools will be in 1-2 years as you make your decision

If you want fancy graphics and lots of rhino models=gsd
if you want real education in real buildings with environmental/building technology and access to social issues=MIT.

i'm also trying to make the same decision too between the GSD and MIT.

i've heard the same thing about core faculty at the GSD that switters did from a former teacher.

MIT's resources, I think, are better when it comes to things like laser cutters/ 3d plotters.

switters- is there a place where i can read NAAB reviews of both schools?

Not sure if you were aware of this but:

From what I have heard, MIT and Harvard are joined together at the hip, so to speak. MIT students can take some classes at the GSD, and vice versa, meaning that wherever you go, you may be able to get the best of both worlds...

Two of my professors mentioned this to me when I asked about applying to both schools. I'm not completely sure if the schools still have this relationship, but its probably something at least worth looking into.

I know that it is possible to cross enroll between MIT & Harvard- in fact, I have a friend who went MIT and actually took a studio at harvard one semester. The thing is though- from the people i've talked to- it's really difficult to do because the class scheduling doesn't match up unless you have a big block of free time during the day to account for the overlap of classes and travel time etc.- logistics I know- but something to consider

I visited both schools this past fall- and will also be at both open houses. At this point I have a pretty vague idea about the differences between the two schools- i hope to find some more concrete information next week.

my $.02: MIT seemed much more diverse, layered, and inspiring to me- personally I am interested in the multidisciplinary possibilities within the practice of architecture. Also MIT in general seemed to be overflowing with a creative energy- within the architecture school they have a very avant-garde art program and lots of other crazy and interesting things going on- which i find to be a big +.
On the other hand- while harvard definately has a kickass facility, nicely dressed students, the Carpenter Center, and people like Rem, it felt much less connected to the world at large.

there is way too much time being spent on this thread. my girlfriend got into Yale, Columbia, Harvard and MIT... and I don't think she's spent as much time daydreaming indecisively about "which is which". You send an application to a school for a specific reason... in the end, you should know for sure where you really want to go.

Interesting thought considering you seemingly aren't even making this decision and yet you are spending your time reading this thread as well.

here is an article i've just read and it is about younger level, but it might add something to this conversation. LAtimes

Ok, for us these rankings may not be important but for the general public they may be key.

Think about it this way: What Will My Future Client Think?

Top universities overall (worldwide)
Rank Prev. Rank Institution Country Score (out of 100)
1 1 Harvard University USA 100.0
2 3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA 86.9
3 6 University of Cambridge UK 85.8
4 5 University of Oxford UK 83.9
5 7 Stanford University USA 83.4
6 2 University of California, Berkeley USA 80.6
7 8 Yale University USA 72.7
8 4 California Institute of Technology USA 71.5
9 9 Princeton University USA 64.8
10 27 Ecole Polytechnique France 61.5
11= 52 Duke University USA 59.1
11= 11 London School of Economics UK 59.1
13 14 Imperial College London UK 59.0
14 23 Cornell University USA 58.1
15 17 Beijing University China 56.3
16 12 Tokyo University Japan 55.1
17= 20 University of California, San Francisco USA 54.9
17= 13 University of Chicago USA 54.9
19 22 Melbourne University Australia 54.5
20 19 Columbia University USA 53.9

For more fun go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_Supplement

One negative thing about the GSD that I've heard from GSD students is that there are many kinds of design that the school discourages because they're deemed too arbitrary. For example, the GSD as a whole doesn't like what Gehry has become. Or, if Gaudi had gone to the GSD he'd probably have been either deemed insane or forced to rein in his style. There's a detectable bent towards Modernism a la Mies and Corbusier.

Of course, I'm sure it still varies from student to student, instructor to instructor, professor to professor. You can't really make a blanket statement about an entire school. The GSD however is the only school to date about which I've heard the word "discouraged" used to describe it. I have however heard the opposite about MIT, which has been characterized as "experimental" and "interdisciplinary." Hell, just look at the Media Lab, which is an offshoot of the architecture department.

This is just one of many aspects of architecture school that I personally find to be somewhat important. It may not matter to you as much as other things.

From what I understand you are always last pick in the lotteries when cross-registering.

given the likes of meejin yoon and mark goulthorpe, the idea that MIT is 'craft' based doesn't entirely fit my description -- for the record the computation discipline group has a strong presence and it seems more time is spent rapid prototyping and scripting in Rhino and GC than on stick-built models... just trying to give an accurate picture.

to put it more succinctly, while this thread is a decent way to flesh out your feelings about the schools, ultimately the open houses will give the best impression.

In reply to previous posts... I got my MArch from MIT on 2002 and took 2 courses (not studios) at Harvard. Enrolling in Harvard courses was really easy.

Also, for those of you with concerns about MIT mixing 2nd year studios with some undergrads, rest assured. These students were some of the most talented and hardest working classmates I had. (and I did have a bit of a prejudice against them going into it...)

"the way MIT has broken the studio space up into several (3, i think) different areas, and divided students up by year is unappealing."

Actually, this isn't precisely the case. Studios are grouped into level 1, 2 and 3 (which roughly correspond to program years), but each level isn't necessarily in the same space. You're seated by studio not by year, although there has been in the past a tendancy to put studios of a given level in one space, although they changed this this year... in Studio 7 this semester there are level 1 and two level 3 (Couture and Pendleton) studios and an undergrad studio as well (Lukez). In Studio 5, there are 3 level 2 studios (Kanda, Wampler, Goulthorpe) and one level 3 studio (D'Hooghe). In addition, in the spring, there is one additional Level 3 (urban design) studio in 10-485.. the same space is used by the planners for their intro skills workshop as well. Thesis students get their own area. SMarchS (second degree) students are present in an assortment of level 2 and 3 studios, but do get their own workspace in a separate area if they so decide.

So I wouldn't say that things are more isolated between years and levels than at the GSD.