ok, I know there are quite a lot of threads on this, but nothing super recently... I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for a laptop. I am looking to be able to use rhino, and maya on it, and of couse photoshop and illustrator. Not all at the same time, but it should have the capability of running some of the applications together.
preferably a p4--not concerned with battery life.
Somebody I work with just got an Alienware portable workstation (ie, big powerful laptop that is portable but you don't want to carry all the time), and it pretty much kicks ass. Depends on how its configured though. His has 3.8gHz processor, 3GB memory, etc.
many companies are using the Clevo shell to put together crazy "laptops." Alienware, voodoo pc, boxxtech, hypersonic, among some others. Some are even offering pre-order options to get one of these with a dual core processor once they are available . . . seems pretty risky to take that route to me, seeing as inital configs might prove unstable. These things are somewhere in the 12-14 lb range. I was tempted, but opted for something more portable (for me, as I bike daily and need to carry the machine around daily).
there are a lot of impressive options. seems like the low end can be around $3K (maybe a lot less by now . . . and less when dual core emerges). The high end can go beyond $4K for companies like voodoo that do custom paint jobs on the machines. Good luck, and let us know what you end up with.
I woulod look at the brands Sager, IBM and Fujitsu. You can custom order all of these. If you buy one from the store I would go for Toshiba or Sony. I have a Sager with 2 gigs of RAM and love it. I had no problems this semester and was able to run many demanding programs at the same time.
As far as the programs it can run, you want at least a gig of RAM then. A video card isn't important for rendering because rendering relies on processor speed and RAM. Put your money into those so you can also run multiple programs at a time. Get a 128mb video card and you'll be fine unless you want to play games.
A) wait for the new intel dual core laptops (less than a month)
B) while waiting, decide how much weight, heat, and durability matter to you.
C) also while waiting, think about how much complicated cad work+3d modeling you're going to do.
D) also while waiting, call friends at harvard and pre-arrange for them to buy you an IBM using their student discount. send whisky or good beer to grease deal.
if A = alot and B = alot
{Buy from IBM, fujitsu, or dell (maybe) portable workstation line}
else if A = alot and B = not much
{buy from IBM, fujitsu, or dell (maybe) higher end business line}
else if A= not much and B = not much
{buy from dell gamer line with crazy coupon}
dont discount screen resolution [video card]. my laptop has 1600x1200 screen resolution which gives me 'effectively' almost 50% more work area than others......
hey how can i get that ibm discount? any GSD'ers out there that want to buy me one????
Dont forget acer laptops too...they are not so popular (yet) in the US, but man, they kick ass
Just got this acer puppy and could not be more pleased with it. The 128 mb ati card chugs smoothly with whatever i throw at it from large photoshop documents to very complex maya/rhino models. And personally i think they look good too. Not as good as the powerbooks, but very decent.
a very good resource is www.notebookreview.com and www.laptoplogic.com The notebook review site also has filter calculators so you can choose the screen size, weight, processor, videocard etc and see the options. I would personally avoid celeron Ms at all costs (of course), Pentium 4s, and video cards with shared memory.
manamana is right though. If you can, then wait for the intel dual core mobile chips, though i think it will be at least february till you we can see some good models come out. good luck.
dual core is when you have two processing cores on one processor package. bottom line, a dual core processor will multitask significantly better and render significanlty faster than even the best single core chips. for the type of work we do, it's a major, major improvement.
the interesting thing about intel's new dual core mobile chips is that they're fairly highly clocked for a short stage processor architecture, and use only slightly more power than the current pentium M. so with those chips you get high performance and high portability/small size.
Dell will get them first, you'll probably be able to order in early/mid jan with shipping in mid/late jan. Other manufacturers will announce lines about the same time but ship a week or two later. there was a whisper of apple having ibooks with them in late jan as well.
in other dell news, dell announces their 30" LCD later this week.
Harvard's IBM deal is nothing short of insane. you can pretty much knock 45% off IBM's web prices.
an important thing to remember is that laptop durability/quality is on the decline across the board. price wars have led to corner cutting. Bottom line: don't buy low end, and get a warranty.
I don't particularly care for dells (support is a nightmare), but with the right combination of sales and coupons they are sometimes the best deal.
Alienware has a reputation for high performance, and ridiculously high prices. IMO there are always better options.
thanks so much manamana, that helps a lot. Sorry if this is obvious, but what is IMO?
Do you think that IBM will be offerring the new dual core soon? Or another comparable line? I can probably wait till the mid/end of january if I have to. I am starting to shy away from Dell, it seems to have a lot of unhappy customers, at least in these circles.
Attention! This is important. I'm actually having a phone conference with Lenovo today (the company that now makes Thinkpads). The Fire GL in the ThinkPads conflicts with Rhino hardcore. It causes freezing, crashing and actually causes files to go corrupt. Penn offered/s the T42p and T43p and they shit the bed constantly. So many of my friends have had to send the laptop back to IBM. There is a driver issue between ATI and Rhino with each company is passing the blame. Also, they over heat like crazy. One friend's motherboard fried. I think art of it may be that IBM jams a butt load of power into the same case that they put any of their laptops in and it's not ventilated enough. I'll try to remember to post what kind of resolution comes out of this meeting.
Interesting. Can you elaborate or post some links documenting this? I have a t41p that's running fine and know many people with t42ps and 43ps, and this is the first I've heard of it, running rhino or otherwise. I did know one guy why had a bunk ATI chip, but he got it replaced under warranty and it was fine.
One thing I'll say, though, is that graphics drivers are very fickle - and when updating/switching drivers, it's very, very easy to royally fark things up. When switiching drivers, did you run a proper driver cleaner and reboot before installing the new ones? I assume you made sure to get drivers from IBM and not ATI, right? probably tried different revisions as well?
Update if you can, I'm curious.
SF: IMO = in my opinion.
latest email says intel's core duo (what they're calling the new chips) officially launches at CES (jan 5-8), so dell will have them for order about then. IBM usually launches slowly - they're available for a few days, then they have to pull them when orders get out of reach of supply. it goes back and forth like that for a few weeks, so if you want one fast, the best option would be to put out feelers with whatever channels you have - call whoever manages IBM sales for your school, email the guy who runs thinkpads.com, chances are one of them will be able to give you a timeline for availability. getting one early might mean paying a bit more, though.
I've run Rhino 2.0 and 3.0 on my HP NW8240 with an ATI FireGL V5000 card with no issues. Drivers are extremely important - I transformed VIZ 2006 from an unworkable, shuddering mess, into a smooth-running application by updating drivers.
Whats more important is I'm surprised trace has'nt been along to recommend Dell. Surprised, and a little worried....
diabase, my friend has the NW8240 (tiiight laptop by the way). He also has had no issues with running Rhino with the Fire GL Card that comes with it. He was using it to do some medium to heavy modelling and no issues yet. Wonder whats up with those IBM/Lenovos . . .
30" Dell? Awesome...really! I have a 20" and 24" LCD and they are just wonderful! Great deals,too.
I bought a Dell 9300, decked out, but returned it because I was unhappy with the screen. I'll wait until 1) they replace it with something good or 2) I feel like shelly out the extra $400+ to get a laptop from someone else with the same specs (Sony is the only one that compares in specs, although Toshiba has a nice screen too, just lousy graphics card).
FYI - 9300 is the same as the M170 (XPS replacement), but with a slightly lesser graphics card and a $600-800 lower price (no stupid LED lights on the exterior).
IBM Thinkpad t43p series has the ATI FireGL 3200 --and probably cost the most of the laptops with the least features
## BUT....
I went to an AutoCAD Demo. The guy giving the Demo happened to be the guy who programed "Dynamic Blocks" in ACAD 2006.
He was giving the entire presentation on a thinkpad.
I went up and talked to him.
He said --"nVidia is definitely the card to beat. They are Autodesk partners. He's owned a couple of Dell's, not bad machines." (M70)
So I ask him, "why are you using a Thinkpad for the demo?"
And he replies "THIS IS THE STANDARD LAPTOP AUTODESK GIVES ALL IT'S EMPLOYEE'S".
Hmmmm.... Given ANY manufacturer will give Autodesk a good price; and they already have a business relationship with nVidia... why would they choose the most expensive, least configurable laptop, with the lowest powered openGL card?
And all I can come up with is...
(1) The machines work with their software.
(2) They don't break. They are rugged and reliable. (like having "airbags" around hard disks, magnesium cases, etc.)
If you are a small shop, sole operator, buying a laptop machine that you are using to run a business... You don't want to "ship it out for repair".... a machine critical to your livlihood? --gone for a week or 10 days?-- it's a big deal.
With IBM, (and others at this level) I can have someone at MY HOUSE the next day to fix it. I'd bet HP has that too, and Dell... IBM's help center isn't outsourced... that probably add's to the cost of the machine.
Since I carry it all around to sites and clients (1) rock solid rugged reliability; (2) OpenGL card for rendering (not game playing); (3) competitive power and speed in architecture and components; (4) light weight, with hot swap bays; (5) next day, "on-site" warrenty coverage.
Autodesk buys their employee's Thinkpads.
If I didn't really need --next day service and actual portability, with a battery life; but just wanted a really powerful garphics rendering machine I could move if I needed to...(and afford to ship out if there was a problem -- I'd seriously look at the Sagers with the QuadroFX at discountlaptops. (no affiliation, but think they are a good company) Those boxes are big enough to handle the heat of that card --I don't know that an Dell M70 would without the fan running all the time.
GeForce=gaming card, Quadro=workstation card. Don't listen to the 14 year olds on Newegg losing their wad over how sweet it would be to play Doom 3 with a Quadro. It's like SUVs and sports cars. They are different animals. That said, Rhino is 'stupid.' It will pretty much run on anything, but the more power you give it, the better it perfoms.
The Lenovo meeting...JOKE. The reps said that it was the first time they had heard the problem and that they weren't really familiar with Rhino. They still have one of my friend's t42ps and can't figure out what is wrong with it. She has replaced the video card 3 times. Everyone in my studio with the t42p has had issues. One guy has sent it back 2 times, another girls is just sluggish as hell and crashes a lot, this other girl's mother board metled the other week, no joke, they replaced it because it literally melted. The t43p seems to be ok so far. The school lent two student in my studio Dell M70s for a month to test them vs the IBMs and neither of them had any problems (Quadros). I think it is an issue with IBMs ATI driver and Rhino. The guys at Lenovo asked me and another student to collect some files that were causing the t42p to crash and send them to Lenovo so they could try to recreate the errors. They also asked that we collect minidump files (i.e. blue screen of death log files) so they can see if it is a consistant problem or random. So that said, there is a very real problem, but they aren't sure what the issue is yet. I run a desktop with a Quadro and have no issues. The other guy has a desktop with a Fire GL and had issues until he got the updated drivers. However, apparently you can only use laptop drivers on the laptops. This is true because I can only use the Gateway driver for my ATI 9600 in my laptop. THey dont have a generic mobility driver on ATIs site. So the resolution of the meeting is pretty much nothing. We are going to continue working with Lenovo to resolve the problem. It is interesting that no one else on this board has had this problem but it is almost universal at varying levels at school. Honestly people that bought consumer grade Dells, Acers, ALienware etc have had far fewer problems than the t42p users. It's to the point that I know of several people becoming so frustrated that they have bought new computers and use the $3000 t42p for Word and email. The IT staff is going to approach the dept chair and tell them to stop recommending laptops. They often just can't handle what we are throwing at them. Maybe the dual cores will make them more viable.
Thanks Hasselhoff, I think I'll stay away from the thinkpad.
Have you or any one out there seen performance differences between p4 and pm? apparently dell doesn't do p4 in laptops, and they don't have any date on the dual core. So far the only company that I found that is doing the dual is Sager, in Athlon, not intel. I was curious manamana where you got your information from, and if you had anything further on the dual processor?
From what I've read, the PM is now starting to outperform the P4. ASUS actually manufactures an adaptor so you can use a PM in a desktop. As far as AMD, I've had only AMD chips since '99 and have been more than happy with them. AMD is really starting to get good. They were the cheaper alternative, but now they are giving Intel a run for their money. My Opteron work station is fast as hell. Our render farm at school is actually a 20 Opteron system. So I would not shy away from AMD.
p4 will be a bit ahead of the current PM in rendering and significatly better in multitasking (if it has hyperthreading and has the power saving features are turned off). the downside is heat and weight. The sager athlons are basically the same thing: big, hot desktop chips, just dual core. If you really want a big, powerful laptop, they might be a good option, just make sure to buy a cooling pad for it.
As for my information, various places really. Computers are a hobby for me, before jumping to architecture I was in a farily hardcore engineering program. most of my buddies from my undergrad early years now work in the tech industry, and we stay in touch. It's wierd, compared to the engineers I'm a computer novice, but compared to most architects I'm teh ubergeek.
Also: I wouldn't discount one brand simply because a few people have problems. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people with thinkpads are very happy with them.
Hasselhoff:
I'm certainly no IBM tech, but here are a few things that come to mind:
there's obvioiusly not a widespread, across the board driver issue with rhino. If it was, IBM would have heard of it before (t42p has been out for nearly a year and a half now), and the many people I know running rhino on t41/42/43ps would have run into it. Also no mention of it on the rhino newsgroup in regards to thinkpads.
that leaves:
1) human error (malware, messed up drivers, corrupted software)
2) an erratic manufacturing problem (and your school got unlucky)
3) A driver bug that only shows up in in certain driver releases or in combination with other factors
has someone (IT staff perhaps) done alot of driver uninstalls/ reinstalls? as I mentioned earlier, that's a good way to mess things up fast if that person isn't careful.
Here's a thought: by any chance is everyone having rhino issues using the same cracked version of rhino? installed from a disc that's a copy of a copy of a copy....100x...? Not that I'm saying cracked software is evil and the |-|ax0rs did it, but optical media that's been repeatedly copied isn't exactly reliable.
rhino kept up to date (sr4)?
anybody let windowsupdate install a driver? That's a sure recipie for disaster. many windowsupdate drivers are virtually impossible to fully remove, even with a driver cleaner.
were all the t42ps bought about the same time? could be a batch of power supplies that have an intermittent issue - that would explain the melted motherboard and dead graphics chips. Speaking of power, has anyone put a multimeter on the wall outlets at your school? ATI chips or (more likely) the IBM power supply might be more sensitive to low power or fluctuations.
Dell is the only one I know of to offer ON SITE next day support. That's big. I think you can get it with a few others now, for a hefty upgrade.
Quadro vs. Geforce: Geforce wins until you get to the Quadro 4000+s, which most of us can't afford (and don't need). I've got two quadros and used tons, from ATI Fire cards to high end Geforces. Quadros just ain't worth the cash unless you are hollywood and spending gobs.
Look at Computer Arts for a comparison (they gave the Geforce 7800 the winning title over the Quadro 1400 for workstations). Not laptop cards, but it's worth reading.
Thanks Trace,
The only thing that worried me about Dell, is that they no longer seem to offer the Pentium 4.
But you're right as far as the on site support goes. None of the smaller boutique companies seem to offer that. Possibly IBM does, haven't checked that out.
I'd suggest waiting a little while for the dual core laptops, if you can. That should make a big difference.
I think I posted above, but I did buy a Dell 9300 and returned it. The screen was not as good as I would have liked. Sony and Toshiba have superb screens, and I could not have lived with the old one. Problem is, with coupons, you end up paying about $400+ for a comparable Sony. Then there's the questionable tech support (read the reviews and people love the the Sony's, hate the support).
You just have to prioritize. I don't know what I'll end up getting. $400+ is a lot for a better screen (and the Dell's didn't suck, it just wasn't as good as my home Dell LCDs and no where near as nice as the Sony's).
Scratch all that. Looks like Sony discontinued the customizable 17" (they have a AX series now that doesn't seem to allow for changes).
Stupid move Sony. Down grading their top end computers, even if they aren't hot sellers (I mean, it's already been developed, marketed, and sold - why stop?). Stupid...and frustrating.
Dell? Wanna buy Sony's LCDs instead of LG/Samsungs? Please?
Hmm. Thanks. I'll try to hold out for the dual core. Looks like the smaller companies will get them first. I'm a little skeptical of them, though.
For some reason the IT Dept at my school was really opposed to the Vaio.
I'll keep on investigating.
I think their reputation from a few years ago was not that good, and their tech support sucked (it sucks less now). It's a risk, for sure, but their screens are great.
Check out www.laptopforums.com for info. A bunch of folks were just raving about the 9300's LG screen. I must have gotten the older Samsung in mine, not sure.
Another thing - if you go with Dell, consider the M170/M140. Gaming machines and they cost more, but you get a better graphics card and individual tech support. Good tech support, at least to me, is easily worth some cash.
If looks matter, I prefer the Dell's look to anything but Apple (it actually looks like an Apple, more or less).
We bought a Dell 6000 (I think that's it - 15.4" screen, all decked out) for $1300. Gig of ram, good specs, good price. It's an Xmas gift, so I haven't opened it yet (not for me).
I'll try to post on here what I think. Feel free to email me if I forget.
laptop question--don't kill me
ok, I know there are quite a lot of threads on this, but nothing super recently... I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for a laptop. I am looking to be able to use rhino, and maya on it, and of couse photoshop and illustrator. Not all at the same time, but it should have the capability of running some of the applications together.
preferably a p4--not concerned with battery life.
Thanks
Somebody I work with just got an Alienware portable workstation (ie, big powerful laptop that is portable but you don't want to carry all the time), and it pretty much kicks ass. Depends on how its configured though. His has 3.8gHz processor, 3GB memory, etc.
many companies are using the Clevo shell to put together crazy "laptops." Alienware, voodoo pc, boxxtech, hypersonic, among some others. Some are even offering pre-order options to get one of these with a dual core processor once they are available . . . seems pretty risky to take that route to me, seeing as inital configs might prove unstable. These things are somewhere in the 12-14 lb range. I was tempted, but opted for something more portable (for me, as I bike daily and need to carry the machine around daily).
there are a lot of impressive options. seems like the low end can be around $3K (maybe a lot less by now . . . and less when dual core emerges). The high end can go beyond $4K for companies like voodoo that do custom paint jobs on the machines. Good luck, and let us know what you end up with.
I woulod look at the brands Sager, IBM and Fujitsu. You can custom order all of these. If you buy one from the store I would go for Toshiba or Sony. I have a Sager with 2 gigs of RAM and love it. I had no problems this semester and was able to run many demanding programs at the same time.
As far as the programs it can run, you want at least a gig of RAM then. A video card isn't important for rendering because rendering relies on processor speed and RAM. Put your money into those so you can also run multiple programs at a time. Get a 128mb video card and you'll be fine unless you want to play games.
A) wait for the new intel dual core laptops (less than a month)
B) while waiting, decide how much weight, heat, and durability matter to you.
C) also while waiting, think about how much complicated cad work+3d modeling you're going to do.
D) also while waiting, call friends at harvard and pre-arrange for them to buy you an IBM using their student discount. send whisky or good beer to grease deal.
if A = alot and B = alot
{Buy from IBM, fujitsu, or dell (maybe) portable workstation line}
else if A = alot and B = not much
{buy from IBM, fujitsu, or dell (maybe) higher end business line}
else if A= not much and B = not much
{buy from dell gamer line with crazy coupon}
else
say "hey, that syntax looks off!"
dont discount screen resolution [video card]. my laptop has 1600x1200 screen resolution which gives me 'effectively' almost 50% more work area than others......
hey how can i get that ibm discount? any GSD'ers out there that want to buy me one????
Dont forget acer laptops too...they are not so popular (yet) in the US, but man, they kick ass
Just got this acer puppy and could not be more pleased with it. The 128 mb ati card chugs smoothly with whatever i throw at it from large photoshop documents to very complex maya/rhino models. And personally i think they look good too. Not as good as the powerbooks, but very decent.
a very good resource is www.notebookreview.com and www.laptoplogic.com The notebook review site also has filter calculators so you can choose the screen size, weight, processor, videocard etc and see the options. I would personally avoid celeron Ms at all costs (of course), Pentium 4s, and video cards with shared memory.
manamana is right though. If you can, then wait for the intel dual core mobile chips, though i think it will be at least february till you we can see some good models come out. good luck.
would you mind explaining the new dual core please? What machines will carry that? I might be able to wait, is it worth it? Or is it too risky?
I've been wondering about Fujitsu, would you go with that over a Toshiba?
Does Harvard have a deal with IBM?
Pentium 4 or Pentium M? I'd prefer power over memory life.
Durability matters, but I'm not concerned with weight. In terms of heat, I'm not sure, I guess I would hope the system had sufficient fans.
Thanks for all the feedback, anything else would much appreciated.
Is Dell on the outs?
How is Alienware's reputation?
Just get a dell...can't go wrong with one.
They recently released something that replaced the XPS-2...even more power!!
Just fyi, the software you listed would all run on a Mac, unless you were otherwise averse to them, or wanted to really squeeze for speed...
... but I just can't do this again right now.
not averse, but I also want to run cad, and I don't really want to do virtual pc.
dual core is when you have two processing cores on one processor package. bottom line, a dual core processor will multitask significantly better and render significanlty faster than even the best single core chips. for the type of work we do, it's a major, major improvement.
the interesting thing about intel's new dual core mobile chips is that they're fairly highly clocked for a short stage processor architecture, and use only slightly more power than the current pentium M. so with those chips you get high performance and high portability/small size.
Dell will get them first, you'll probably be able to order in early/mid jan with shipping in mid/late jan. Other manufacturers will announce lines about the same time but ship a week or two later. there was a whisper of apple having ibooks with them in late jan as well.
in other dell news, dell announces their 30" LCD later this week.
Harvard's IBM deal is nothing short of insane. you can pretty much knock 45% off IBM's web prices.
an important thing to remember is that laptop durability/quality is on the decline across the board. price wars have led to corner cutting. Bottom line: don't buy low end, and get a warranty.
I don't particularly care for dells (support is a nightmare), but with the right combination of sales and coupons they are sometimes the best deal.
Alienware has a reputation for high performance, and ridiculously high prices. IMO there are always better options.
thanks so much manamana, that helps a lot. Sorry if this is obvious, but what is IMO?
Do you think that IBM will be offerring the new dual core soon? Or another comparable line? I can probably wait till the mid/end of january if I have to. I am starting to shy away from Dell, it seems to have a lot of unhappy customers, at least in these circles.
Attention! This is important. I'm actually having a phone conference with Lenovo today (the company that now makes Thinkpads). The Fire GL in the ThinkPads conflicts with Rhino hardcore. It causes freezing, crashing and actually causes files to go corrupt. Penn offered/s the T42p and T43p and they shit the bed constantly. So many of my friends have had to send the laptop back to IBM. There is a driver issue between ATI and Rhino with each company is passing the blame. Also, they over heat like crazy. One friend's motherboard fried. I think art of it may be that IBM jams a butt load of power into the same case that they put any of their laptops in and it's not ventilated enough. I'll try to remember to post what kind of resolution comes out of this meeting.
Interesting. Can you elaborate or post some links documenting this? I have a t41p that's running fine and know many people with t42ps and 43ps, and this is the first I've heard of it, running rhino or otherwise. I did know one guy why had a bunk ATI chip, but he got it replaced under warranty and it was fine.
One thing I'll say, though, is that graphics drivers are very fickle - and when updating/switching drivers, it's very, very easy to royally fark things up. When switiching drivers, did you run a proper driver cleaner and reboot before installing the new ones? I assume you made sure to get drivers from IBM and not ATI, right? probably tried different revisions as well?
Update if you can, I'm curious.
SF: IMO = in my opinion.
latest email says intel's core duo (what they're calling the new chips) officially launches at CES (jan 5-8), so dell will have them for order about then. IBM usually launches slowly - they're available for a few days, then they have to pull them when orders get out of reach of supply. it goes back and forth like that for a few weeks, so if you want one fast, the best option would be to put out feelers with whatever channels you have - call whoever manages IBM sales for your school, email the guy who runs thinkpads.com, chances are one of them will be able to give you a timeline for availability. getting one early might mean paying a bit more, though.
I've run Rhino 2.0 and 3.0 on my HP NW8240 with an ATI FireGL V5000 card with no issues. Drivers are extremely important - I transformed VIZ 2006 from an unworkable, shuddering mess, into a smooth-running application by updating drivers.
Whats more important is I'm surprised trace has'nt been along to recommend Dell. Surprised, and a little worried....
i hate dell. that is all.
Thanks for the input, I too am curious about an update.
I've heard NVIDIA is superior for Rhino, anyone heard similar? Offhand,does ibm NVIDIA?
diabase, my friend has the NW8240 (tiiight laptop by the way). He also has had no issues with running Rhino with the Fire GL Card that comes with it. He was using it to do some medium to heavy modelling and no issues yet. Wonder whats up with those IBM/Lenovos . . .
30" Dell? Awesome...really! I have a 20" and 24" LCD and they are just wonderful! Great deals,too.
I bought a Dell 9300, decked out, but returned it because I was unhappy with the screen. I'll wait until 1) they replace it with something good or 2) I feel like shelly out the extra $400+ to get a laptop from someone else with the same specs (Sony is the only one that compares in specs, although Toshiba has a nice screen too, just lousy graphics card).
FYI - 9300 is the same as the M170 (XPS replacement), but with a slightly lesser graphics card and a $600-800 lower price (no stupid LED lights on the exterior).
Dual core laptops will be great.
IBM Thinkpad t43p series has the ATI FireGL 3200 --and probably cost the most of the laptops with the least features
## BUT....
I went to an AutoCAD Demo. The guy giving the Demo happened to be the guy who programed "Dynamic Blocks" in ACAD 2006.
He was giving the entire presentation on a thinkpad.
I went up and talked to him.
He said --"nVidia is definitely the card to beat. They are Autodesk partners. He's owned a couple of Dell's, not bad machines." (M70)
So I ask him, "why are you using a Thinkpad for the demo?"
And he replies "THIS IS THE STANDARD LAPTOP AUTODESK GIVES ALL IT'S EMPLOYEE'S".
Hmmmm.... Given ANY manufacturer will give Autodesk a good price; and they already have a business relationship with nVidia... why would they choose the most expensive, least configurable laptop, with the lowest powered openGL card?
And all I can come up with is...
(1) The machines work with their software.
(2) They don't break. They are rugged and reliable. (like having "airbags" around hard disks, magnesium cases, etc.)
If you are a small shop, sole operator, buying a laptop machine that you are using to run a business... You don't want to "ship it out for repair".... a machine critical to your livlihood? --gone for a week or 10 days?-- it's a big deal.
With IBM, (and others at this level) I can have someone at MY HOUSE the next day to fix it. I'd bet HP has that too, and Dell... IBM's help center isn't outsourced... that probably add's to the cost of the machine.
Since I carry it all around to sites and clients (1) rock solid rugged reliability; (2) OpenGL card for rendering (not game playing); (3) competitive power and speed in architecture and components; (4) light weight, with hot swap bays; (5) next day, "on-site" warrenty coverage.
Autodesk buys their employee's Thinkpads.
If I didn't really need --next day service and actual portability, with a battery life; but just wanted a really powerful garphics rendering machine I could move if I needed to...(and afford to ship out if there was a problem -- I'd seriously look at the Sagers with the QuadroFX at discountlaptops. (no affiliation, but think they are a good company) Those boxes are big enough to handle the heat of that card --I don't know that an Dell M70 would without the fan running all the time.
Much appreciation for all the input. For those who mentioned Sager/who own sager how's their service? Do they offer any onsite?
I'm slightly inept in the computer department, so forgive the question, but will the new dual core replace both the pention 4 and M?
If I don't go with the dual core, which would be a better option of those two? I don't really need mobility, I will be pretty stationary in studio.
Does anyone have an opinion of the Geforce vs the Quadro?
Thanks
GeForce=gaming card, Quadro=workstation card. Don't listen to the 14 year olds on Newegg losing their wad over how sweet it would be to play Doom 3 with a Quadro. It's like SUVs and sports cars. They are different animals. That said, Rhino is 'stupid.' It will pretty much run on anything, but the more power you give it, the better it perfoms.
The Lenovo meeting...JOKE. The reps said that it was the first time they had heard the problem and that they weren't really familiar with Rhino. They still have one of my friend's t42ps and can't figure out what is wrong with it. She has replaced the video card 3 times. Everyone in my studio with the t42p has had issues. One guy has sent it back 2 times, another girls is just sluggish as hell and crashes a lot, this other girl's mother board metled the other week, no joke, they replaced it because it literally melted. The t43p seems to be ok so far. The school lent two student in my studio Dell M70s for a month to test them vs the IBMs and neither of them had any problems (Quadros). I think it is an issue with IBMs ATI driver and Rhino. The guys at Lenovo asked me and another student to collect some files that were causing the t42p to crash and send them to Lenovo so they could try to recreate the errors. They also asked that we collect minidump files (i.e. blue screen of death log files) so they can see if it is a consistant problem or random. So that said, there is a very real problem, but they aren't sure what the issue is yet. I run a desktop with a Quadro and have no issues. The other guy has a desktop with a Fire GL and had issues until he got the updated drivers. However, apparently you can only use laptop drivers on the laptops. This is true because I can only use the Gateway driver for my ATI 9600 in my laptop. THey dont have a generic mobility driver on ATIs site. So the resolution of the meeting is pretty much nothing. We are going to continue working with Lenovo to resolve the problem. It is interesting that no one else on this board has had this problem but it is almost universal at varying levels at school. Honestly people that bought consumer grade Dells, Acers, ALienware etc have had far fewer problems than the t42p users. It's to the point that I know of several people becoming so frustrated that they have bought new computers and use the $3000 t42p for Word and email. The IT staff is going to approach the dept chair and tell them to stop recommending laptops. They often just can't handle what we are throwing at them. Maybe the dual cores will make them more viable.
Thanks Hasselhoff, I think I'll stay away from the thinkpad.
Have you or any one out there seen performance differences between p4 and pm? apparently dell doesn't do p4 in laptops, and they don't have any date on the dual core. So far the only company that I found that is doing the dual is Sager, in Athlon, not intel. I was curious manamana where you got your information from, and if you had anything further on the dual processor?
From what I've read, the PM is now starting to outperform the P4. ASUS actually manufactures an adaptor so you can use a PM in a desktop. As far as AMD, I've had only AMD chips since '99 and have been more than happy with them. AMD is really starting to get good. They were the cheaper alternative, but now they are giving Intel a run for their money. My Opteron work station is fast as hell. Our render farm at school is actually a 20 Opteron system. So I would not shy away from AMD.
SF:
p4 will be a bit ahead of the current PM in rendering and significatly better in multitasking (if it has hyperthreading and has the power saving features are turned off). the downside is heat and weight. The sager athlons are basically the same thing: big, hot desktop chips, just dual core. If you really want a big, powerful laptop, they might be a good option, just make sure to buy a cooling pad for it.
As for my information, various places really. Computers are a hobby for me, before jumping to architecture I was in a farily hardcore engineering program. most of my buddies from my undergrad early years now work in the tech industry, and we stay in touch. It's wierd, compared to the engineers I'm a computer novice, but compared to most architects I'm teh ubergeek.
Also: I wouldn't discount one brand simply because a few people have problems. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people with thinkpads are very happy with them.
Hasselhoff:
I'm certainly no IBM tech, but here are a few things that come to mind:
there's obvioiusly not a widespread, across the board driver issue with rhino. If it was, IBM would have heard of it before (t42p has been out for nearly a year and a half now), and the many people I know running rhino on t41/42/43ps would have run into it. Also no mention of it on the rhino newsgroup in regards to thinkpads.
that leaves:
1) human error (malware, messed up drivers, corrupted software)
2) an erratic manufacturing problem (and your school got unlucky)
3) A driver bug that only shows up in in certain driver releases or in combination with other factors
has someone (IT staff perhaps) done alot of driver uninstalls/ reinstalls? as I mentioned earlier, that's a good way to mess things up fast if that person isn't careful.
Here's a thought: by any chance is everyone having rhino issues using the same cracked version of rhino? installed from a disc that's a copy of a copy of a copy....100x...? Not that I'm saying cracked software is evil and the |-|ax0rs did it, but optical media that's been repeatedly copied isn't exactly reliable.
rhino kept up to date (sr4)?
anybody let windowsupdate install a driver? That's a sure recipie for disaster. many windowsupdate drivers are virtually impossible to fully remove, even with a driver cleaner.
were all the t42ps bought about the same time? could be a batch of power supplies that have an intermittent issue - that would explain the melted motherboard and dead graphics chips. Speaking of power, has anyone put a multimeter on the wall outlets at your school? ATI chips or (more likely) the IBM power supply might be more sensitive to low power or fluctuations.
Warranty:
Dell is the only one I know of to offer ON SITE next day support. That's big. I think you can get it with a few others now, for a hefty upgrade.
Quadro vs. Geforce: Geforce wins until you get to the Quadro 4000+s, which most of us can't afford (and don't need). I've got two quadros and used tons, from ATI Fire cards to high end Geforces. Quadros just ain't worth the cash unless you are hollywood and spending gobs.
Look at Computer Arts for a comparison (they gave the Geforce 7800 the winning title over the Quadro 1400 for workstations). Not laptop cards, but it's worth reading.
Thanks Trace,
The only thing that worried me about Dell, is that they no longer seem to offer the Pentium 4.
But you're right as far as the on site support goes. None of the smaller boutique companies seem to offer that. Possibly IBM does, haven't checked that out.
I would not get a P4.
I'd suggest waiting a little while for the dual core laptops, if you can. That should make a big difference.
I think I posted above, but I did buy a Dell 9300 and returned it. The screen was not as good as I would have liked. Sony and Toshiba have superb screens, and I could not have lived with the old one. Problem is, with coupons, you end up paying about $400+ for a comparable Sony. Then there's the questionable tech support (read the reviews and people love the the Sony's, hate the support).
You just have to prioritize. I don't know what I'll end up getting. $400+ is a lot for a better screen (and the Dell's didn't suck, it just wasn't as good as my home Dell LCDs and no where near as nice as the Sony's).
Scratch all that. Looks like Sony discontinued the customizable 17" (they have a AX series now that doesn't seem to allow for changes).
Stupid move Sony. Down grading their top end computers, even if they aren't hot sellers (I mean, it's already been developed, marketed, and sold - why stop?). Stupid...and frustrating.
Dell? Wanna buy Sony's LCDs instead of LG/Samsungs? Please?
Hmm. Thanks. I'll try to hold out for the dual core. Looks like the smaller companies will get them first. I'm a little skeptical of them, though.
For some reason the IT Dept at my school was really opposed to the Vaio.
I'll keep on investigating.
I think their reputation from a few years ago was not that good, and their tech support sucked (it sucks less now). It's a risk, for sure, but their screens are great.
Check out www.laptopforums.com for info. A bunch of folks were just raving about the 9300's LG screen. I must have gotten the older Samsung in mine, not sure.
Another thing - if you go with Dell, consider the M170/M140. Gaming machines and they cost more, but you get a better graphics card and individual tech support. Good tech support, at least to me, is easily worth some cash.
If looks matter, I prefer the Dell's look to anything but Apple (it actually looks like an Apple, more or less).
We bought a Dell 6000 (I think that's it - 15.4" screen, all decked out) for $1300. Gig of ram, good specs, good price. It's an Xmas gift, so I haven't opened it yet (not for me).
I'll try to post on here what I think. Feel free to email me if I forget.
Definitely hold off until the Intel Core Duo releases in January.
The new Yonah core runs rings around the old Dothan core (Pentium-M)
i'll try to wait if my presario 1200 holds up. It's a pretty week machine, but I guess I can always use the computer lab if need be.
The yonah core seems worth it.
Anyone know anything about the dual core from Athon?
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