you should find out why your client wants the drawings stamped...is it needed for some purpose or just the client's whim. (obviously, don't frame the question that way.)

ultimately the architect stamping drawings is not just supposed to review them. the stamp is an indication that drawings have been prepared under his/her supervision. the architect will assume some liability by affixing a stamp/signature.

for the purposes of review, this other architect does NOT need autocad files. a hard copy is sufficient. an electronic file will 1) allow that person to make changes and 2) allow him/her to cop details.

proceed with caution. also, talk the architect. that person knows better where you're coming from than the client does.

Two primary issues, I'll add:
1) Liability - If he stamps them, it's technically his responsibilty. But
if it ever went to court....
2) Copyright - If he stamps them, I think the case ican be made that he
take the rights to your design. Big deal, or not - that's up
to you.

I'm sure that you can add & subtract from what I just asserted, please do.

Interesting... I'm not sure what your concerns are (aside from copyright/credit that MMan mentioned). On the face of it, the one doing the stamping is the one worried about the situation, for he's the one on the hook if something goes wrong.

I agree that passing around electronic files should be a last resort. If the architect is nearby, I second the advice above: offer to send a set of prints or deliver them yourself.

By the way, this is the moment to remember an important point we sometimes forget: it is sometimes alright to say "no" to a client.

you can most definitely say "NO" to a client. Architects don't say it enough.

1. I hope you have a contract.
2. In that contract it is stipulated that electronic CAD files will NOT be disseminated and that you own those files, not the Client.

Be firm. I see no valid reason for another architect to have electronic files of your design. if they want/ need to stamp them a hard copy will be sufficient. it will be sufficient for your Client also.

Some good points.

but to be clear.

1) dont send data, just send PDFs of the drawing set. if all hes doing is stamping, thats all hell need.
2) let him stamp them. if things go to court hell have more to loose than you, so i would doubt he would ever bring you to court.

be careful - if this project ends up in litigation, and it comes to light that the architect stamped them illegally (which this situation certainly is) don't think you won't get off without being questioned as to your accountability, ie. "did you know it was illegal for the architect to stamp your drawings?" "if you did, why did you agree to it?" this info could come back to haunt you in your attempt for licensure.

When the client told me this. The first thing I say is "why?" Since I know to a high degree of certainty that my permit office would not care if they were stamped. Second, I told my client that the stamping Architect will then become the "Architect of record" and become liable.
My client responded "I don't care".
Personally, I don't have a problem with him looking at, or stamping my plans. Although, my pride is hurt, but I get over it.
I definitely did not want him to have a copy of my file. I think he would understand this.
I decided I would come to this forum to see what the feeling was before I called the other architect. My feelings have been confirmed.

thank you everyone

el jeffe, Is it illegal even if he does a intense review.

If it is than maybe I'll protest this decision. I have read that plans are to be prepared by or under the stamping architect's supervision. Which is defintely not the case in this situation.

I do not intend to break the law or let my client tell me to.

"Personally, I don't have a problem with him looking at, or stamping my plans."

you're missing the point, IMHO.
you know it is illegal and it's your ass on the line too. why put yourself in that position? ignorance (feigned or actual) is never a legal defense.

if the client is insistant - then i suggest you transmit the drawings (electronics or a reproducible - it doesn't matter at all) with a formal transmittal and then walk away from the project. make it look like you were replaced.

and you still didn't post the client's response to why he wants it stamped?

"I definitely did not want him to have a copy of my file. I think he would understand this."

what do you care that the arch would have a copy of your file?

good for you.

Sorry el jaffe, I just don't see how Kelhammer can hold any culpability if he is not liscenced himself (I've assumed this).
As far as I know, at least in my jursidiction, there is no legal jeopardy involved with a non-lisenced designer allowing an architect to stamp his drawings - it's the architect's act (or whatever law in your jurisdiction that sets out responsibilities of liscenced architects) that governs, and that, by definition, governs only architects.
A signature and seal by a liscenced architect trumps any non-liscenced content.
A good lawyer would argue (on Kelhammer's behalf) that the architect who stamped it is more sophisticated, cognizant of the responsibilities, etc.

PDF'S..........why?, cuz you own the work

I've gotta say, if I was your licensed friend, I wouldn't do this. No way, no how. And you're not being a great friend to ask him/her. The only reason (that I can think of) the client would insist to tenaciously that an architect had to stamp the drawings is if they were litigation-inclined. Having been made aware of this, I hope you don't shunt that litigation onto your friend by getting him/her to stamp your drawings.

Sorry. I think the responsibility is on the architect.

You can get in trouble at all. All you did was prepare drawings for the architect. Its his responsibility to look at drawings and make sure they are ok before he stamps them.

The arch stamping them is taking all liability for them. ALL LIABILITY.

the only thing that could happen to you is that he refuses to stamp drawings for you anymore.

Yes, I have a written contract. But, for future contracts I am going to add something that will say something about unauthorized duplication or distribution. As well as electronic files will not be released to anyone.
An that I retain sole ownership of my drawing and files

I believe that my client is asking me to do this because her daughter who is is going to occupy the new addition knows this other architect and thought it would be wise. I don't think my client or her daughter is aware of the legal aspects. If I decide to inform them of what I know they might back off. I have not spoken to the other architect yet. I felt I should do alittle homework first.

el jeffe
I guess I should have stated it differently. The law comes first. I'm not going to knowingly commit a crime and allow the other architect stamp the plans. If it wasn't illegal than I would have no
problem with it.
I do believe that if it ever became a lawsuit that I could be implicated.
and therefore jepordized my ability to become licensed. I'm only 3 tests away!!!! I don't want to screw that up.
I always approached these issues with extreme caution. I believe there is alot of wisdom on this forum.
Right now, it is potentially me against my client, her daughter and their contractor. So I plan to finish my drawings & get paid before I respond to them asking for me to give my drawings to this other architect.

i mean "cannot get in trouble..."

Responders please note I do not know this other architect! He is someone my client knows! At this point I do not intend on releasing any drawings to him. I will release them to my client only. If they deliver a copy to him it would be out of my control.

my concern for Kellhammer is not the immediate consequences (if litigation arose) but the future. His name would obviously be on the drawings. Why knowingly put yourself in the hypocritical position of violating the Architect's Practice Act as an intern and, as if by magic, upholding it as a licensed architect in the future?
as i recall, when one aplies for licensure, there is a little question that asks something like.."Have you ever been a party to a lawsuit? (i think as it relates to your work - i can't remember the specific question). why put yourself on the radar screen, so to speak?
The architect in question is obviously on the hook for violating the architect's practice act or whatever it is called their jurisdiction, but i would not make the mistake of thinking that it ends there.

as for CAD files - just have the recipient sign an indemnity form. big deal.

OR just use .dwf format which allows for viewing and redlines. I hand that format electronically off to clients and other archs... all the time.
I think the Architects Practice Act refers to misrepresenting yourself as an architect...Kelhammer can easily calll himself designer and the architect that stamps it will get credit as architect... Not a perfect situation, but ....

geek - APA refers to much more than just that section, but that reminds me that APA govenrs non-architects also freq_arch.

i find it a little odd that somebody who knows a registered architect would find someone else to do the work.

though it could be that ra has a job in a firm that doesnt do residential work, and is trying to use their friend to do quality control....

Nicoli - it's cheaper..

el jeffe - Your right APA refers to a lot more, I was merely speaking to this case.. As it is I'm not a great expert on APA so take anything I say with a grain of salt. :D

i just realized it is possible that the client's architect could have been involved in the project in the background since the beginning, reviewing and offering changes that the client would then transmit to Kellhammer. I wonder if the architect then feels as though he has in fact 'supervised' the production...now there's an interesting question. To what degree is direct supervision defined??
Does the supervised need to know they were supervised?

The way the client seems to consider this, he's going for the cheaper route and bending arms to get the stamp for his own satisfaction, future security, and possibly to ease other approvals. In any case, if you've got a contract with the client to deliver drawings, you'll probably have to do so as previously agreed upon. However, write to the client your objections to this stamping process that he's suggested and the reasons why. Send it to him, and keep a copy of this fax/letter for future records.

In the end the architect who stamps this is liable. However to some degree as are the people that drew the drawing. That's why their name is on there. I've heard of cases where they've gotten all names involved. Better safe than sorry, and you can't plead ignorance - especially since you're an intern architect.

.PDF's are the greatest thing for an architect since sliced bread. I can easily see a future where cd's are emailed out to contractors for bid in .pdf form. Send pdf's.

The architect cannot or atleast should not stamp your drawings. If one does he/she is an idiot. Especially if one is not needed in your state. The stamp says legally, I supervised the development of these drawings. Not, I looked them over - looks good to me.

i think the architect holds the responsibility of any liability issues. in general, what makes it impossible for any architect to get hold of any other plans that he sees anywhere and just have the ability to stamp it? nothing. i think if you're not an architect, the most you can do to protect you from legal issues is label your work with your own name and also state on the drawing "not construction drawings." my interior designer friends do this on their layout plans so that someone cannot claim that their drawings are incorrect in construction stages.

Grey areas, guys. The client always finds a way to get what he wants, or needs. 99% of the time, this situation goes un-noticed. There are the 'proper' avenues, then there are the things that everybody does.

Not saying to do it the right way or the 'way everybody does it'. I'm just giving an observation.

Kellhammer, maybe there is an opportunity for you to get the client to pay more to you for this hand-off. My opinion is that you are being asked to perform add'l services - No matter the outcome, here. at least get paid for it.

Find a way to dot your 'i's & cross the 't's in this process,though. Do what is necessary to protect yourself, because everybody else definitely is playing CYA, as well.

I have a meeting today with my client. I'm putting the last bit if information on these plans just before the meeting. So I will have completed what I outlined in my contract to them. I will request my final payment before letting then know how I plan to proceed with the stamping issue. Most likely I'll release my drawings after payment to my client letting them know that I do not approve of the other architect stamping my plans. If it gets nasty at least I got my full payment on the contract. What they do with my plans afterward I feel is out of my control. I'll let them know that if they plan to take a set to the other architect that I might be inclined to call the state board and let them know what is going on.

If this situation was happening with someone I was friends with I might have a different perspective. But, since I already have had words with my clients contractor (I know he's behind all this) I feel I'll enforce what the law says.

How does one convert dwg's to pdf's??

plot them as .pdf. you may need to set this up, adding a .pdf option to your list of plot drivers. haven't done this in a long time but remember it as not being too difficult.

I know this has been posted earlier, but in California it is illegal for architects to stamp drawings not prepared under their supervision. If the board of architectural examiners gets a hold of this, penalties could include the loss of license, fines and in extreme cases jail time.

One might ask themselves are the fees for this little project really worth it? I suspect not.

Not only California, that is everywhere as I understand.

Kellhammer,
Don't talk to them about any state board stuff. I know I might get some flak for this, but better to let sleeping dogs lie. Once it's out of you hands, you don't control what they do. Go on to the next project.

For pdf's, first (I forgot) you'll need Adobe Acrobat. Not that free version you get online but the real one. Then you can just set up Acrobat as a printer and print from CAD like you would to your printer. It's pretty nice.
Ditto what Architectoid and Strawbeary said. It's not too legal for an architect to stamp your drawings unless you created them under their direct supervision. Some architects will do this for others and charge them like $500 for it. If you did have another architect stamp something I would most definitely NOT tell any governing body.

Send pdfs, if you feel confident about the design and work you did and think the building will stand up and had some engineers look at it and you don't need a stamp and meets all the codes, you shouldn't need to put "Not for construction use" on it. If not, put that in HUGE letters on every sheet just next to the Sheet number.

Rereading your original post, if releasing drawings to another architect or the client is in your contract, then you will have to give them the dwgs. If not, you should have the client pay for them. It's obvious he wants you to design it, then have another guy make sure it will stay up. That guy may butcher it for all you know. Your design is still legally yours unless the client buys the rights to it. On the other hand, if it's just some addition you could give two shits about, then it's no big deal. I'd just send the dwgs. This other architect probably won't change much, just make sure it's up to snuff.

I have no doubts about my the structural soundness of my design. I think the client has asked my to send this stuff to the other architect because that what her daughter & her contractor told her to do.
They are classic models of "alittle knowledge is dangerous". My client has no idea about the legality of this issue nor does her daughter or the contractor (he's a total a**hole). And I can already sense they think I am the one who is difficult. But, the good news I had my last meeting with my client today and the last set of drawings will go to her tomorrow. As well as my final bill. On to the next project.

excellent turn of events Kellhammer, nicely handled.

I'm wondering if this architect even knows the client is tossing in their name as the one to stamp this project? Sounds like they're being so non-chalant about the whole thing, they just assume it's a simple matter that no one should disagree with them.

architect will recieve the plans and sign a contract with the client. he will study the plans and start to make adjustments and document the project in cad (if he doesn't have the files he'll make his own from the drawings). he'll talk into the client for more changes (they might have agreed on this already). by then, the project will pretty much under his responsible control with no further problem except clients are paying more money to him.
if they build it like you've designed, take pictures and say its yours because you have substantial proof in the form of construction documents and design drawings,etc..
if they buid it differently, you'll always avoid that street.
if its a fuck up, they got what they deserve.
move on, is good..

First, Check your states Arch licencing laws, if you haven't already. It should indicate what building types and any limitation that will allow design and documentation, without an arch. seal. That the building department of the governing authority, may not require one, is not sufficiant.
2nd: Most states require, the drawings to be prepaired with the Architects, titleblock and letter head, in addition to his seal, for him to claim, they were prepared under his direct supervision and authority. to do any less would put him in the position of allowing someone else to practice architecture without a license, which is against the Arch. licensing law.
3rd: The client may just want, the peace of mind, in knowing a licensed Arch. verified, that the drawings, are complete and sound in structure.
4th: Talk to the Architect and see, if you can work together, with you providing design, documentation, and Contr. Admin. With he providing quality control, and primary responcibility. if he agrees. confirm it in writting. If not. Do not release any drawings, without being paid in full for the work that you have completed.