Archinect
anchor

Another FAILURE of leadership from this profession.

358
jla-x

Where are the designers, architects, and engineers in the debate on hardening school security through design?  Why are we not at the forefront of this issue?  It’s common sense that doors to classrooms should be bullet proof.  It’s common sense that safety through environmental design is a good idea.  Forget about your politics for a second.  Where is the debate and leadership in this profession?

 
Feb 22, 18 12:20 pm

13 Featured Comments

All 54 Comments

shellarchitect

is it common sense? bullet resistant doors are VERY expensive and schools have a ton of doors

Feb 22, 18 12:38 pm
jla-x

Safeguards against attacks in schools should be first priority as is fire safety. Why don’t schools have gun alarms? Sound activated alarms that will immediately contact police and put school on automatic lockdown? Possibly isolating the shooter and tracking the shooters location in the building in real-time. Besides the obvious things like not allowing mentally ill people from getting guns, and having armed guards at schools, there must be a conversation about what can be done about the environmental design of the building itself.

jla-x

And almost certainly those doors along with concrete walls would greatly reduce casualties.

joseffischer

Do any of you actually design schools? The firm I work for design schools, courthouses, and I've worked at a place that's done a bunch of jails. The schools have a $150/SF budget and the courthouses have a $300+/SF budget. Every county we design for requires digitally locked doors monitored on and off-site, security with a buzzing system to allow people in at the front door, etc. However, teachers and students prop open doors, trade keycards, etc all the time.

joseffischer

Your suggestion would effectively double the cost of schools and would still not work, because the staff/students wouldn't use the building properly.

I propose taxing guns at 1000% to pay for school security.

joseffischer

I agree that a gun tax for capital improvements on school security makes sense. In fact, I'll pretty much agree to any tax on anything that specifically is tied to building improvements. It's my profession! Infrastructure spending, more expensive and better buildings, tax on gas, tax on food, penny taxes tacked on to existing taxes. Let's make some dough and spend it on buildings!

fionawys09ns

I think you made an amazing point, Joseffischer, that staff wont use doors properly if they are installed. In your work, have you come across any effective gun alarm systems, or technology equipment that may work?

joseffischer

All the schools we've built recently provide the capability for 3rd party monitoring (local PD, fire department, etc) classroom specific alarms (VOIP, fire pulls, etc) overarching control of all devices and systems from FACP (located in lobby), administration office, FAAP (located in mech room or MDP room), off-site control and monitoring of all systems (down to what temperature the thermostat can be) from the facility HQ of the county. Beyond some automated way for the school to "detect" a gun on campus on its own, I don't really see how you get much better than this. A teacher/student notices a problem, and unless outside, is probably within 15 feet of a button to alert the whole school of the location and nature of the problem.

joseffischer

All the improvements above are really for fire emergencies during school hours and for break ins after school hours. Glass breaks, motion detectors, mag locks, etc are all implemented, but obviously many of these devices don't behave the same during school hours.

Non Sequitur

Because you don't need fortification when the solution is to educate a population plagued by a religion of gun-ownership.

Gun for self-defense  -> bullshit

Right to carry  --> bullshit

2nd amendment  --> bullshit

But sure, keep your dumb toys and backwards ideals, we'll just equip kids with ballistic backpacks and spread more dumb murderous toys around.  That'll solve the problem.

Feb 22, 18 12:40 pm
sameolddoctor

Yup. This is not an architectural issue but a political one.

tintt

Interesting... It's almost like you think design is about thinking instead of knowing. Just kidding. This came up with the moms at ballet class. I just listened to hear, they don't even know I'm an architect actually. They said no way did they want any kind of security at their kids schools because then it wouldn't be fun and feel like a happy place for learning. I think otherwise and totally agree this is a design opportunity. I go into a lot of schools and none of them have any security. I can walk in and people don't even know me . These kids are sitting ducks and they know it, they feel it. And yet change is resisted by these moms who don't want their kids to feel unsafe by having security measures. Blows my mind. The local school in my neighborhood has an office on the second floor. There is a sign at the entrance that tells guests to check in upstairs. The check-in is signing your name on a clipboard. Pretty unsecure. 

Feb 22, 18 12:44 pm
Non Sequitur

Outside of the main reception on the 2nd level, you jest right? I've attended schools in Europe with tall barbed-wire fencing, armed patrols with guard dogs. It's not a conductive environment when fear is thrust upon you because a few are more paranoid than wise. What next, SAM sites in the baseball diamond?

tintt

What was the barbed wire for? My high school's "reception" was also on the second floor. My elementary school, it was on the third floor.

Non Sequitur

barbed-wire ontop of chainlink... rather obvious no? It gives students free haircuts and pant alterations during their morning climbing exercises.

tintt

I see.

tintt

Gotta keep those kids in school somehow I guess. ;)

Non Sequitur

That's another way to think about it.

Volunteer

Well, the Aurora theater shooter was on psychotropic drugs, the DC Navy Yard shooter was on psychotropic drugs, Adam Lanza of Newtown was on psychotropic drugs, and the recent Florida shooter had just stopped taking his psychotropic drugs.

That said, there is a different mindset between an AR-15 owner's typical mindset and that of a hunter. A legitimate hunting rifle has a longer, stronger barrel and shoots a larger bullet with a more powerful charge, the idea is to kill the game as painlessly as possible. A hunting rifle holds a maximum of three or four cartridges. No one I know would think of going hunting or even owning an AR-15. They are wanna-be copies of the current automatic version of the M-16 and are designed (BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT) for killing whichever group of foreign people is the enemy this week.

Feb 22, 18 1:08 pm
jla-x

Psychotropic drugs are with a doubt a factor. No one on such drugs should be allowed to own a gun or drive a car without a doctors clearance.

form follows gumption

Totally agree. Unfortunately, the pharm industry makes too much money so this is not likely to change.


Non Sequitur

big pharm? really? Look at big murderous toys industry instead.

form follows gumption

Yes, big pharm. Why not look at both? Really crazy thought here, but maybe there could be even more than 2 factors?

jla-x

Trust me from experience with family members on psychotropic drugs. These people can go from depressed and docile to extremely dangerous in a very short period of time.

Featured Comment
senjohnblutarsky

I do schools work.  Most renovation projects don't even have the funding to take care of the current needs.  Adding those in just adds to the 10 pounds of shit we're cramming in a five pound bag. 

That said, there are lockdown systems that are being used.  Schools are being equipped with secure vestibules.  

Inevitably, the determined are going to find ways around every defense you put up.  

Feb 22, 18 1:09 pm
tintt

I think that sounds reasonable.

Featured Comment
TED

I believe in a gun-free world.  That should be our shared ambition. I am a vegan and think shooting anything is disgraceful. 

We have more mental health issues in the UK than the US.  I would walk in the middle of night anywhere in the UK.  

If yanks stopped making war rifles accessible to anyone, mass shootings would go away.

Spend money on books and teachers - not armoured doors. 

Feb 22, 18 1:23 pm
jla-x

I believe in a fire free world, but we have fire safety. I believe in a terrorist free world, but we have airport security.... This fairytale black and white thinking is part of the problem.

jla-x

And if veganism is your thing, don’t push it on others. Hunting is 100000x less cruel and more healthy than factory farming.

senjohnblutarsky

And this is our featured comment for the thread? Who picks this shit?

tintt

I was at the park with my kids a few days ago and there was boy with a wooden replica rifle with a scope. He was walking around pointing it at other kids and peering through the scope. Even though it was obviously not a real gun I didn't feel safe and left. America is screwed up.

Feb 22, 18 1:48 pm
Non Sequitur

Amen.

jla-x

Kids have been playing with toy guns for a long time. This mass shooting epidemic has only been happening for the last 20 years. What’s changed?

archietechie

Pray tell Tinbeary why are you still here then?

jla-x

And why is this largely a suburban issue. There has never been an urban school (to my knowledge) where this has happened despite the greater availability of guns in places like Chicago, Detroit, etc? There is maybe something about the isolation of suburban life that drives crazy/evil people over the top...

jla-x

Yes there is a lot of gun violence in urban areas, but it’s usually tied to gangs, crime, etc. this random mass shooting scenario is much more nihilistic. So yeah, there is without a doubt a cultural and environmental element to this that is unique to the times.

form follows gumption

Well it's a good thing your feelings aren't a priority to children playing with toys. America would be exponentially more screwed up if children had to walk around on eggshells their entire lives so you don't feel threatened.

tintt

Oh look! Here's some of the crazies now. Apparently it is a right to be able to point a gun at another person. Do say more.

Non Sequitur

I'm now getting spam. I should have known better.

tintt

But we need a trump wall to feel safe!

Non Sequitur

Tint wins best internet comment of the day

form follows gumption

Who said anything about Trump? Who said people have a right to point a gun at someone? Quite the stawman you're building up. Either that or a spectacular troll job.

tintt

Yay I win!

jla-x

If I could make all the guns in the world disappear I would...but that’s not realistic...and as long as there are maniacs out there we need to think about self defense.  Architects and designers need to think about how architecture and design can be used to make schools safer without making them look/feel like prisons....because that what we are supposed to be able to do.  Yet, 10 mins into a discussion and everyone is off the rails...this is why nothing gets done in America. 



Feb 22, 18 2:21 pm
Non Sequitur

That's because you still subscribe to the guns for self-defense bullshit. I am cleared for and deal with high security treats in some of my projects and believe me, it's damn frightening going through that process when designing buildings. Besides, there was a recent article floating around a few days ago that calculated the cost of adequate providing security to all US schools...somewhere in the order of a trump border wall for basic paranoia relief. I recommend you take that cash out of your army funding if you're going to go that route. See how many right-to-own fools will follow along then.

jla-x

Well, if someone is shooting at you what do other than shoot back? Are you aware that people use guns for self defense all of the time? Recently a man stopped a mass church shooter in TX with an ar-15 before the police were able to respond. The notion that guns are not used in self defense is simply false. The hypocrite politicians that have armed security can attest to their necessity. Let them lead by example and fire their armed security. Never gonna happen.

jla-x

I highly doubt you would board a flight without metal detectors and airport security. I certainly would not. I’m more than happy to take off my shoes and wait in line if it means I can fly with that peace of mind.

threadkilla

jla-x, yet somehow millions of uneventful flights happened without metal detectors before 911... and somehow they don't usually ask me to remove my footwear in European airports, or whenever I have to make an appearance in a local courthouse (which has airport level security protocol - metal detectors, X-raying your bags and all...)

proto

The whole "good guy with a gun" isn't why I can roll down to the grocery store or work and come back without being armed. The thing that keeps us from not shooting each other in the US is the social contract and community values that say we don't want to live that way, not the threat of lethal force. I aspire to keeping it that way. We are better than this & we can figure out a way to reduce gun problems through education, health & economic support.

jla-x

I hope you are never assaulted...if you just whip out a copy of that contract they will laugh at you. Don’t bother calling the police either. Their guns are ineffective according to your logic...

jla-x

Just saying, yes that social contract works for the normal majority, but a psychopath/sociopath does not adhere to that contract.

proto

Have you been assaulted? That's not something to wish on someone. Nor is it something that we should "expect" as part of our daily lives. I am not naive. There is a place for weapons, but they deserve discretion and oversight, far greater than currently mandated. Do you disagree with my previous comment? Do you feel public safety in the US is based on the threat of lethal force?

proto

There is no reason to change society to suit a psychopath/sociopath. That's the tail wagging the dog. As I said earlier, we're better than that. There should be consequences, just not changing the canal for a rock that falls in it.

jla-x

I would never wish that on anyone, and I didn’t imply that. What I said is that crazy people do not follow that contract that normal people follow. Yes, I agree that mutualism keeps the majority of us in line, but the only thing that stops a manic is force, the only thing that stops a criminal is the idea of jail...it’s why we have locks on doors and vaults for our money. And yes, deadly force needs to be countered with deadly force. If this where not the case police would have no need to carry guns. I do not believe that assault rifles should be in the hands of anyone, they are dumb. A handgun or shotgun is sufficient for self defense. I would gladly be willing to ban them...I really just doubt that alone will solve this problem we have.. believe me, I wish we lived in utopia...I hate violence. I literally don’t even kill bugs in my house...I put them outside...but if I had to defend my fam I would. I want to maintain that right.

proto

I disagree that the only thing that stops a "<"enter bogeyman here">" is personal weapons. We aren't going to see eye to eye on this. I hope you do defend your property and family. Just understand there are more ways than one to do this.

The idea that police wouldn't have to carry weapons is preposterous and based in a similar naïveté that you've accused me of.

jla-x

never said police wouldn’t have to carry weapons. I said that we want them to because we know that it’s necessary.

proto

yes, you did...poor reading comp on my part...my apologies

archi_dude

My high school built in 1998 was laid out with lock downs and shootings in mind. Hardened windows and doors and positioning of classroom windows so students could hide in a corner but the room would look empty. So....it’s already been done.

Feb 22, 18 3:19 pm
threadkilla

I don't know about bulletproof doors, but this school was designed with an extremely high level of security - https://www.morphosis.com/arch...

I think it's an issue of both culture and design, and you can't just design your way out of it. Up here in Canuckistan we have better gun laws than 'Murcans, but we still have school shootings and domestic terrorism events (admittedly, way less of both): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/...

Feb 22, 18 3:25 pm
threadkilla

Also, the difference between Safety and Security has been blurred so much in post-911 policy discourse, that I think it's a huge part of the overall roadblock to dealing with the culture of violence. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140831152519-11537006-understanding-the-difference-may-soon-save-lives-safety-vs-security/

threadkilla

The whole "good guy with a gun" deterrent concept is based on the sense of Security that is associated by some with having a gun, whereas the real Safety of citizens is directly related to how many (or few) firearms are in any given place at any given time...

jla-x

Wrong. I don’t believe anyone who says that if a maniac with a gun was in their home they would rather not have a gun to defend themselves. That’s total BS often spat by those who would rather preserve their political identity than use common sense.

jla-x

I understand those people afraid of having a gun at home because of kids and such, but in that situation any sane person would want to defend themselves and their family. I am also certain that if that gym teacher had a gun he would've tried/shot the gunman rather than being forced to act as a human sheild to protect those kids.

threadkilla

jla-x here in Canuckistan, a farmer in Saskatchewan was recently acquitted of second-degree murder for "accidentally" killing an intruder on his property, while acting "to protect himself" from stupid teenagers. Most people don't know what to do with the verdict, and it's divided popular opinion along racial lines because the farmer was white, and the jury that acquitted him was entirely white, while the slain teenager was of First Nations origin, and most Canadians know that white people and natives don't mix well in Saskatchewan... The kids who were breaking the law had a broken .22 in the cab of their truck, the farmer discharged three rounds from a handgun, and claimed that the last (and deadly) one was an accidental shot. He shot a boy in the back of the head and claimed that he didn't mean to do it, and the law sided with him because this took place on his farm. You're telling me that we should all be like the farmer?

I think if a real maniac with a gun is in your home, it's probably too late to defend yourself - and if you're worried about this scenario, you should take all available preventive measures.

jla-x

We should not all be like the farmer. He was clearly not actually defending himself.

RickB-Astoria

The problem is psychological. Between a gawd awful recession and now a daily traumatic horror drama of Donald Trump, we all need psychological counseling. 

Feb 22, 18 4:33 pm
LITS4FormZ


Banning guns doesn't work. Enacting new laws to make gun ownership more difficult doesn't work. Criminals don't follow laws. As long as mental health in the country continues to be demonetized and demonized these things will continue to happen. 

The UK is hardly the model I would want to follow for "safety" and "security"

Feb 22, 18 4:39 pm
Non Sequitur

Yes it does. The problem is gun obsession can't be reasoned with.

LITS4FormZ

How has banning guns worked for the killing fields of south Chicago?

Non Sequitur

just fine.

threadkilla

TL:DR = A LOT of guns involved in Chicago shootings are from Wisconsin and Indiana, states where gun laws are way more lax. Also, gun control laws do not have a history of being upheld by legislators in Illinois...

b3tadine[sutures]

The Court also added dicta regarding the private ownership of machine guns. In doing so, it suggested the elevation of the "in common use at the time" prong of the Miller decision, which by itself protects handguns, over the first prong (protecting arms that "have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia"), which may not by itself protect machine guns: "It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service – M16 rifles and the like – may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home.

jla-x

Most people don’t realize that guns were actually banned in many Wild Western towns. People typically had to check them with the sheriff when entering. The second amendment as well as all others have been reinterpreted over and over to suit the times. No one anticipated twitter and the internet when writing the first amendment, yet we still interpret it to preserve free speech regardless. Another misconception is that the second amendment is about hunting. If you didn’t hunt on the 1700’s you didn’t eat. The 2nd amendment is about creating a last ditch check against tyranny. Again, we are not in the business of constitutional law, we are designers. We can wish away violence all day, but if we ignore the fact that it exists and do nothing to address it with defensive design, we are not doing our job as designers or advocates for the environment. we should collectively be lobbying for building safety reforms and the funding to make it happen. We should also be looking into the effect that ones environment has on a sociopaths behavior and mental deterioration. It seems that suburban environments are more prone to this kind of isolation that drives already crazy people into completely dangerous maniacs. More research in this area would be good. I’m also sure technology can be used to create a more efficient system for identifying and reporting such abnormal behaviors.

LITS4FormZ

Speaking of can't be reasoned with.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

Feb 22, 18 4:50 pm
Non Sequitur

...and what? that number would be significantly higher the more folks were armed. Gun rights obsessed wankers lead to higher availability. Treat that religious nonsense around the 2nd amendment and get rid of the supply. More guns is not going to help.

LITS4FormZ

Who said anything about adding more guns? All I said was banning guns doesn't work. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens doesn't help the situation either. This hysteria is just early campaigning for the 2018 election and a bit of $oro$ engineered chaos. If any of these politicians gave a shit about "school safety" Sandyhook would have led to some meaningful change.

threadkilla

banning guns would work better if Indiana also banned guns, or if there was a way to control the transfer of goods across the Indiana-Illinois border

threadkilla

you're right that criminals will find ways to get guns, but right now the NRA and pro-2nd Amendment people are giving them that way

LITS4FormZ

Ban guns in the US and cartels south of the border change their business model. Then only criminals have guns at that point. ​Living in California where you have to jump through endless hoops and be familiar with ever changing laws, owning guns(legally) is quite the hassle. Somehow violent crime doesn't seem to decrease and shootings are not in short supply. Again this isn't going to make suburban schools safer or stop people with mental health issues/terrorists any less likely to plot mass murder.

jla-x

Guns are highly illegal in Mexico...hows that working out?

Non Sequitur

guns, hand guns specially, are extra mega illegal here (canada) yet I routinely hear gun shots (not a joke) in my neighbourhood. Still does not make me feel the need to arm myself in the slightest and I'll walk through anywhere in the dead of night without fear. I guess an above average knowledge of statistics and probability helps here.

jla-x

What was the probability that the US women’s hockey team would beat Canada?

Non Sequitur

rather high... damn shoot-outs.

Featured Comment
proto

Lotta gun lobby talking points in here...def surprised, but I guess there's a slice of Americana everywhere.

Sort of sad though to hear educated design professionals express the sort of myopic, dystopic 2A excuses to maintain the status quo, instead of trying to figure out a bigger picture.

There is a place for guns, usually it's in a locked cabinet waiting for hunting season.

Feb 22, 18 6:46 pm
Non Sequitur

To your last point, what would happen if say like our licenses, there were large yearly fees + insurance costs and mandatory cont-ed requirements to own a firearm? The price would scale base on weapon type and be multiplied for those owning multiple weapons. That cash could be used to pay for healthcare and compensation to the families affected by gun violence. If it cost you a few thousand per year just for the illusion of safety a concealed carry permit gives you, you'd think demand and available weapons in circulation would eventually decrease.

proto

The idea of liability insurance is an interesting one, but it will receive fiery opposition. How about starting with simpler things?Like nationally searchable registration of weapons, much like drivers licenses? Limits on ages for possessing or owning? National education & training requirements w/ continuing ed? (as you suggest)

Non Sequitur

Yes, that's the line of thinking required but, I don't believe in baby-steps. Better to make people angry now and let them learn from their past mistakes as the rest of the world moves on in an intelligent way.

jla-x

And requiring the state and police to report incidents to the National background check data base. This guy in Florida had many run ins and many reports of unusual behavior.

shellarchitect

Think it's more of a cultural problem than anything else.... Not alot of Asian girls shooting up schools

Feb 22, 18 7:28 pm
Featured Comment
jla-x

I really wasn’t looking to start a gun debate, although I expected it to turn into one.  As designers, we should be talking about design solutions rather than politics. That can be expressed with your vote.  I thought beefing up school security/Design would be a no-brainer bi-partisan issue.  Guess Not. 

Feb 22, 18 7:34 pm
Featured Comment
shellarchitect

I agree with your central thesis that architects would serve the country well by suggesting design solutions, similar to the"bathroom" debates of last year

Non Sequitur

bathrooms don't kill people, typically.

jla-x

Depends on whose pooping

jla-x

Some bathrooms like the one at Circle K are probably harboring Ebola and bird flu.

Non Sequitur

Will a pistol keep you safe from ebola?

threadkilla

I began by posting a case study, the International Elementary School by Morphosis, built in 1999, which has above-average security built into the design. I agree that more can, and should be done by design, but maintain that design alone will not solve the issue of violent crime, it can only serve to prevent death/injuries and help deter potential attackers - the culture of violence and the culture surrounding gun ownership needs major attention to further address the underlying causes of these tragedies...

form follows gumption

That's fair, I think we can still get the conversation back on the rails. I hate to diminish the role of the architect in building/school security because it is important, but I think we are playing it up a bit too much in this thread. Maybe architecture/design isn't the cure-all we want it to be sometimes. Security can be dependent on staffing, training of that staff, administration, budget, etc. As we know from this thread, it's also a political and cultural issue. Sorry for how pessimistic this sounds, but in the bigger picture I'm not sure how much the architect/designer/engineer can ultimately impact the security of a school or buildings in general. Perhaps you can change my mind.

threadkilla

jla-x, you are essentially talking about the insufficient "Health and Welfare protection" that licensed architects are neglecting in the design of these spaces. Some of the posters have cited budget limitations, and I am sure the code(s) don't stipulate anything along the lines of defensive/defensible design for assembly spaces - so in absence of other regulations, this kind of thing is exactly where the licensing process falls short in providing H+W protection.

jla-x

Threadkilla, totally agree that design will not solve the problem but can minimize casualties and possibly deter maniacs...but that’s the point! We cannot change culture via design, we can change buildings via design. People who design cars are in the business of making cars safe to minimize injuries from accidents, not reducing drunk driving and minimize accidents. I’m sure many/all are against drunk driving, texting and driving, etc, but ultimately what is within their control is auto safety. That’s all I am saying.

Featured Comment
OneLostArchitect

I agree with the OP, we need to be in the forefront of this issue. I feel you need perimeter security access to the campus. I’m in Detroit and went to a school in a really bad neighbourhood. The university campus has permiter security and you need clearance to get  on campus. 

Feb 22, 18 7:41 pm
shellarchitect

Udm, what year? I was there from 2002 - 06, ltu for grad

OneLostArchitect

Yes UDM, 2012, took some courses unrelated to architecture

Featured Comment
archinine
The issue is society. Neither limiting the availability of the guns nor bullet proofing buildings is going to stop a polarized society from attacking one another. The further the economic and political divide the more of these incidents we will see. The lack of any available mental health services for the most disenfranchised sectors of the population (which is under the umbrella of the overall economic issue) fuels the problem further. We as designers have very little sway politically and economically both on a macro scale and when it comes to individual buildings. More regulation of guns or buildings isn’t going to solve the greater economic issues.

Distraught angry mentally ill whatever you want to categorize these people as, all have the same things in common, which is a severe lack of economic opportunity and little to no access to services and people to help them, all within the societal framework that needing help of any kind is the antithesis of the American dream.

These are last ditch efforts by those who feel society has forgotten or outcast them. They know they’ll be caught. They know their life will be over. This is their last act and they seek to cause as much destruction and pain as humanly possible because for aforementioned reasons they have convinced themselves they have no hope of a future within the current society.
Feb 22, 18 9:50 pm
sameolddoctor

Bullshit. Polarized societies exist in many countries. Some much more than here in the US. Think rural africa or parts of asia. Still, they have ABSOLUTELY no school shootings. The answer is to ban assault weapons.

Nevermind the fact that "Responsible Gun Onwers" reads like "Benevolent Murderers"

jla-x

lol, are you serious? I was in rural Africa and was nearly assaulted by a group of armed rebels with AK-47s. Fortunately, a local who was with us knew some people they were subordinate to and shouted them down. Have you not seen entire villages gunned down, raped, kidnapped... at the hands of rebel groups while the unarmed villagers have no way to fight back? In many parts of rural Africa the bullies have guns, and the fact that the cjtizens don’t make them extra brazzen and effective at creating havoc and fear.

jla-x

Guns are very easily available in rural Africa...to the criminals.

sameolddoctor

jla-x, I have still not heard of school shootings in africa, where a gunman can come into classrooms and kill children that cant do much in that situation, whereas here in the US we have this multiple times a year.

jla-x

Because it’s cultural. That’s my point. It’s almost impossible to be socially isolated in Africa. I’ve been to rural Africa and you literally cannot walk 100 feet without people talking to you. Hospitality like I’ve never experienced anywhere in the world despite poverty and the stresses they deal with on the regular.

jla-x

Murder in Africa is usually due to tribal disputes, religious superstition, warlords, gangs, and other horrors of the human condition. Yeah, the lone maniac is not a common thing in that part of the world.

Featured Comment
Koww

somebody should delete / move the off-topic posts so we can actually talk about architecture.

here are some thoughts

 separate classrooms by physical distance or other barriers to make it difficult for someone to roam around shooting lots of people in a short time

have a radial scheme that lets people escape in any number of directions

panopticon with centrally located guard. with or without license to kill and little friend

each student is given a portable bulletproof bubble that they carry around during the school day. when multiple students get together, they can "trust" each other on their smartphone which allows bubbles to join. bubbles can change color to showcase the students mood, like if they get bored during a lecture

drones / other security devices like nets that deploy to instantly suppress someone who pulls out a weapon

pump pacifying chemicals via hvac

Feb 22, 18 10:16 pm
Non Sequitur

don't forget moats filled with landmines and draw bridges raised only twice daily.

threadkilla

Pirhannas in the moats, with a Snøhetta-style underwater cafeteria with a view of the moat bottom

threadkilla

I like your first two points - buffer space between classroms and multiplying egress points.

jla-x

A very loud alarm and flashing lights can be very disorienting and could likely slow the attacker while police are on the way.

jla-x

Sound activated concussion grenades in the ceiling that go off when within 5-10 feet of gunfire.

jla-x

Seems the down force of those grenades would quickly disable a gunman while being non-lethal to students.

jla-x

YO, that would work!

jla-x

Police can have a special supressor or coded interupor
that would not trigger the devices.

jla-x

*coded interruption signal

msparchitect

I'm surprised you didn't add marijuana injections into the duct systems. If we just forced everyone to relax and chill the F-out... maybe we could all get along. Shooter wouldn't have the energy or the hostility. He'd probably just be paranoid. Cheetos could sponsor it.

Koww

i think that falls under "pacifying chemicals"

Koww

also the students don't even need to be physically present. we have the technology

Feb 22, 18 10:31 pm
randomised

.

Feb 22, 18 10:52 pm
Non Sequitur

Love that site.

But how many drowned themselves after seeing a Nicholas Cage movie?

jla-x

Ban Nicholas Cage!

Non Sequitur

Create Nick Cage free zones around all pools.

b3tadine[sutures]

I think all your kids belong here, safest place in NJ.

Feb 23, 18 12:42 am

Guns are a high-profit industry. As long as the costs are borne by society at large - just like the cost of hugely profitable continuous wars - nothing is going to change.  

Plus, fear works, as evidenced by guns sales and shootings. 

Come on people, get with the program. I'm going to start a business selling body armor for children. 

Feb 23, 18 1:11 am
Non Sequitur

Miles, how hard to you think getting the rights to, say, pokemon or starwars, would be? I bet you'd make boat loads of money if you could market vest with popular characters prints.

Want to partner up? Great business model. Kids grow so fast they always need a bigger size. If they survive, of course. And the licensing possibilities are endless: NASCAR, pop stars, NBA, soft drinks, McDonalds ... we'll make a fortune while saving lives!

Non Sequitur

I would, but certainly the NRA will get wind of our business venture and squeeze us out in no time. Just like the tobacco companies backing both cigarettes and alternatives/cessation aids (nicotine gums, and stupid vappers).

Volunteer

Well, the US Army just went from the ITALIAN Beretta 9mm to the GERMAN Sig Sauer after it narrowly beat out the BELGIAN FN model for the new side-arm competition. Just food for thought.

Feb 23, 18 8:17 am
Non Sequitur

Don't you have any true-blooded gun'loving m'erican gun companies?

Volunteer

We're waiting for Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau to come out with the 'Ballerina Derringer' single-shot BB gun.

Non Sequitur

If so, you won't be able to load it without first making a formal apology to the native population.

jla-x

Canada should design a non-lethal hockey puck gun...those things hurt.

Non Sequitur

Jla, they kinda did already way back in 1991 in the classic animated masterpiece called ProStars. In that show, Mr. Gretzky's character did not use a gun to fight crime, no sir, he used a hockey stick which automatically loaded pucks for him through a slot on the face of the blade.

jla-x

OMG, I have to see that lol!

randomised

I also hate it when the US army invades sovereign countries with non US weaponry.

Non Sequitur

Glad you appriciate the depth I reached for that reference. Although this link does not show the exact version I remember, the intro gives you an idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtA9isgQU58

I predict that in a few years every US politician will have a fully armed personal security detail 24/7 courtesy of the US taxpayer while they continue to wage indirect war on the American population with massive lobbying money from the NRA and arms and ammo manufacturers.


Feb 23, 18 9:04 am
SneakyPete

This years flu season was particularly deadly. Where are the designers, architects, and engineers in the debate on preventing the spread of the flu through design?  Why are we not at the forefront of this issue?  It’s common sense that materials should be anti-microbial in all cases.  It’s common sense that safety through environmental design is a good idea.  Forget about your politics for a second.  Where is the debate and leadership in this profession?


Feb 23, 18 1:14 pm
jla-x

Although you are trying to be sarcastic, I agree.

threadkilla

I know you're joking, but I think anti-microbial doorknobs for publicly accessible bathrooms and venues, and maybe even busses are actually a good idea

bowling_ball

Until we find out, like antibacterial soap, that they cause cancer.

joseffischer

Mandated don't come to work days when you're sick?  If your boss sends you home because of illness, it doesn't use up your PTO?

Feb 23, 18 1:26 pm
jla-x

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8i6EGH4FI


Howard Stern hits the nail perfectly.  My exact sentiment.  

Feb 23, 18 3:47 pm
threadkilla

Howard Stern is an asshole "I don't know what the solution is, but let me tell you, all these ideas for solutions are dumb because FREEDOM!" And "I just think we need to have a dialogue" while literally talking over someone else's voice, someone who is calling in to provide input into said dialogue. "I said I want dialogue, so let me ignore you and keep this show in monologue mode because FREEDOM!"
smfh

jla-x

Freedom is a real concern. Without a constitution we would be living in a very different country right now....do you not agree? Are you not happy to have due process, freedom of speech, right to
assembly?

sameolddoctor

jla-x you an a jackass very much like Stern. Confusing the issue by playing all sides. Go play with your wanker.

jla-x

I take that as evidence that you are having a hard time arguing
the above points...

sameolddoctor

No, your stupid argument implies that America is the only "free" country in the world.

jla-x

So are you for preserving the first amendment?

jla-x

My stupid argument implies that America’s freedom is reliant upon our constitution and the checks and balances of government. Not saying that other societies cannot achieve
freedom in other ways.

jla-x

Your ideology is stunting you ability to advocate for basic hsw in buildings. It’s a problem that exists. Defensive space may help. You are a designer. Period. I am very much in favor of driverless cars. Cars are very very dangerous. I would give up my right to drive up
without hesitation

jla-x

*right to drive a car without hesitation. To me that freedom is not important. I’m sure however others would go nuts if they were no longer allowed to drive manually. You have to respect the rights of others though. If you feel guns are unnecessary, remember there is a 65 yo female who owns a liquor store in some bad neighborhood that feels some peace of mind by having one for self defense.

The constitution is essentially toilet paper at this point. Money=speech, no protection from search and seizure, monetization of the legal process, loss of privacy, etc. 

Except of course for the 2nd Amendment, courtesy of the military industrial complex. 

jla-x

Miles, I’m very much against the NRA and any other group that buys political puppets. Money should be out of politics

Featured Comment

As most Americans have, I'm sure, I've spent a lot of time lately thinking about this issue, and reading a lot of different points-of-view, from all parts of the political spectrum.

I have to say upfront that I have no problem with more strict, common-sense gun restrictions.  Universal background checks, more stringent age restrictions, even banning of certain classes of weapons.  Let's do something about this, and I certainly hope that it will help.

However, I have grave doubts whether any of this will stop the mass shootings.  I think our problem is not a legal one, but a moral and cultural one.

When I was a kid, there were far fewer restrictions on weapons, and there were lots of guns in the hands of citizens.  Lots and lots of guns, but we didn't have mass shootings with anywhere near the frequency we have today.  Why is that?  I don't believe it's because of more semi-automatic weapons, or high-capacity magazines.  That might increase the efficiency of the killing, allowing a gunman to kill more people.  But it doesn't explain the frequency of the events.

I think there is something sick about our society now that didn't exist fifty years ago, and until we seriously look inside society and ourselves, I don't think we will be able to solve this.  No one wants to go there, because it takes introspection, and it means we have to question a lot of cultural beliefs, sacred cows in which many people have heavily invested.  But there is something seriously wrong, and as much as I'd like to believe that more restrictive gun laws will solve it, I don't think they will.

Feb 23, 18 5:09 pm
sameolddoctor

Then how do restrictive gun laws work in other countries? Please tell me.

jla-x

Very well said Erik.

I wish I had an answer for that, sameold.

jla-x

sod, one can say the inverse, why is it that 50 years ago, when guns were just as available, mass shootings were extremely rare-non existent

jla-x

Shitty parents, lack of community, PSYCHTROPIC DRUGS, and an overall nihilistic culture perhaps?

jla-x

Not to mention the obsession with fame, or it’s evil cousin infamy...with a media that enables it by giving these monsters a name.

sameolddoctor

50 years ago, we used to live in a different world with less competition, less obsession with self and a striving for the greater good. It is not productive to imagine that we can harken back to those times.

sameolddoctor

On the other hand, the statistic of "we had the same number of guns back then" is also questionable. By any metric, gun ownership has increased in the US. The more guns, the more deaths. It is that simple and the whole unending discussion is bogus. As I've said before, a "Responsible Gun Owner" is like saying a "Benevolent Murderer".

Interesting. The number of households owning one or more guns in the US has been steady, and is virtually unchanged since 1972. https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

jla-x

Also need to make a distinction between guns and gun culture. Gun culture has greatly changed in recent years. Gun shops circa 2017 are filled with mostly wannabe military shit...circa 1970 would mostly be sportsman shit and some self/home defense shit. That’s a dangerous shift in our mentality imo.

jla-x

And....as guns have gone up, crime has greatly gone down since the early 90s. Not saying there is or isn’t a correlation, but the crime stat is a fact.

sameolddoctor

Ah, so now we are saying that we are superior than other societies. Nice!

Next statement will be - all people are not equal. And so it goes on.

jla-x

Huh?

Featured Comment
shji

Architects don't have anything to do with gun issue. Architects are neither politicians nor gods. Bulletproof doors in school is such an unbelievably stupid idea.

There is an obvious answer to mass shooting. Banning guns clearly works and they know it does when they look at everywhere in the world where guns are not allowed. Australia has done it.

No guns = less shooting. Simple solution. NRA and gun makers want their business going. Politicians like the money from them. Simple minded voters like to keep their American values alive instead of their kids. I don't think US will ban guns anytime soon. What a country!

Feb 23, 18 6:11 pm
shji

And stop blaming things on psychotic people. Britain has more mental health problems than US but it doesn't have mass shootings.

jla-x

If bulletproof doors are a stupid answer, let’s remove them from banks. Question, if a gunman was firing at you, would you rather be behind a bulletproof door or a regular door?

jla-x

Yeah ok, psychotic people have nothing to do with it...logical

sameolddoctor

jla-x and positive pete seem to be the same person. lol. Confusing the issue by playing all sides of the game. But wait, its not funny, its tiring, and emblematic of the phenomenon that gives the highest office to evil mofos like Trump.

But, here is a comparison of mass shootings by country. Stop saying that Europe has as many mass shootings as the US. It is just idiotic, tiring and makes you sound like a NRA clown.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...


shji

Psychotic people and idiots are everywhere, not just in the US. Anyone can see that there is one even in this very thread... jla-x. Bp doors are stupid because its a half assed solution which doesn't prevent idiots to be produced nor does it prevent them to buy weapons and kill. But you suggest installing bullet proof doors in every school, churches,and all the public spaces in the country... One dimensional, simple minded idea that a ten year old would laugh at. Maybe it will save couple more lucky lives but it doesn't solve the core of the issue. Psychotic people and guns are the two causes and since no psychos can be filtered guns should be banned. Look. I see that you don't want to see it.. but the fact is clear right in front of everyone.

jla-x

Wow. I’m baffled that people are actually this mindless. You don’t have the ability to ban and seize all 200+ million guns. You DO have the ability to advocate for defensive space. You can also advocate for banning guns for all I care. Fine, but until that happens don’t you want to do something to protect people? No, self serving righteous wankers like you would rather do nothing while sitting in your safe hipster enclave...because you care more about preserving your political identity than providing remedy to a problem. Imagine a doctor refusing to research care strategies for drug ods because he/she believed that illegal drugs shouldn’t exist.

jla-x

You are that guy

TED

If Salk felt the way to cure polio was to build a better Iron Lung most of us would have had different futures. Believe in long term ambitions beyond what is in front of your nose. 

 'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them' -- Einstein

Volunteer

Apparently FOUR more Broward County deputies were in the parking lot during the shooting when the Coral Springs police arrived. The Coral Springs police immediately went in to the school building while the deputies stayed behind.

Feb 23, 18 7:06 pm
Featured Comment
threadkilla
threadkilla

"Americans make up about 4.4 percent of the global population but own 42 percent of the world’s guns."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

sameolddoctor

Thanks threadkilla. It seems the US is the only country where even common sense is questioned. And lot of those idiots are now on Archinect

jla-x

So why are murderer rates lower that they where in 1990?

sameolddoctor

I dont believe murder rates are lower than in the 90s. Stop quoting wrong statistics. I could find something to refute your argument, like I have done 2-3 times today, but will resign to the fact that your american stupidity is going nowhere.

jla-x

Then you are uninformed.

jla-x

If you don’t know that crime has dropped a lot from its peak in 1990 you are not very knowledgeable about US crime stats. That’s common knowledge.

jla-x

Also, murder rates in the US are FAR from the highest in the world. You are dumb.

jla-x

Caracas! Worst murder rate on the planet...and when gun laws were made even stricter than they already where, and guns where confiscated from the public, the murder rate skyrocketed even higher. Now the new dictator regime is arming the socialists and the majority resistance civilian population is left sitting ducks.

jla-x

I’m sure they do.

randomised

Somehow I have a gut feeling they have less school shootings (per capita) in Caracas.

sameolddoctor

I dont think they have had ANY school shootings in Caracas. I feel that the criminals in those places still have a modicum of empathy towards kids, at least on the surface.

I’d hate to live in a country where guns are available to all and sundry resulting in a school shooting every couple of months.

But I’d also hate to live in a country governed by an absolute cretin who could take the guns away and then impose cretinism on the nation with no recourse, did the US have a “soft coup” in January 2017?

Feb 23, 18 8:39 pm

i asked a question

shit or get off the can

Volunteer

People who are on certain SSRI drugs should not be allowed to own a firearm or live in a residence where there is a firearm.

That said, there apparently is no interest in finding out what drug he was on or what the strength of the drug was. Was his doctor being rewarded by the drug company for prescribing his particular drug? Many are, and as a result prescribe, not the best drug for the patient, but the one that brings the psychiatrist the biggest benefit.

As an aside, one report said the kid was set to inherit $800,000 from the estate of his deceased mother.   

Feb 23, 18 9:25 pm
jla-x

Pharma has media in its pocket.

tintt

This is so American that the best comment here, the one about having secure vestibules, is almost completely ignored.

Feb 23, 18 11:39 pm
jla-x

It’s so American the 2 most simplistic comments are the featured comments. Microcosm of the media.

tintt

Senjohn's Feb 22 @ 1:09 pm.

tintt

So there is an architectural solution, even one that could be retrofitted. So does it work? I don't know the anatomy of any of the schools where the incidents have occurred. Has a shooting occurred in a school where you had to get past a secure entrance? How do the shooters get in? Seems they just walk in, armed with guns, and do their thing. They can be at least deterred. Yet you hear time and tine again that people want schools to be a place where you can walk freely in and out because it feels good to them. My point, we don't have to devolve into thus argument about guns because regardless if we live in a country where depressed people act out killing fantasies or not, a secure vestibule helps with more security issues than that one.

jla-x

Well said tint!

randomised

I think it's the American school system that encourages severe bullying and provokes these attacks, it's at first a social issue, than a gun issue and maybe third an architectural issue. If kids can't shoot their peers and teachers inside the school, what's keeping them from a shoot out on the parking lot as long as guns are so easily obtained?

tintt

I don't disagree. But it doesn't mean a school's design shouldn't try to deter intruders.

tintt

There was a shooting in the parking lot of the school 1.5 blocks from my house. It is just a matter of time before every school has a shooting event in their history.

jla-x
curtkram

what is cns news? can you link to a cdc.gov page that says the same thing?

jla-x

My bad, meant to post this Slate article...I’ll look for the cdc link...

jla-x

There is stats in there that support both sides of the debate, but self defense is legitimate.

jla-x

To be clear as to my stance, I believe that “military style” guns create a bad/irresponsible gun culture...not because of their functionality so much as their attractiveness to wacky and dangerous people. That said, I support ones right to have a gun for defense and sport. It’s a complicated debate. I am 100% anti nra because I dislike their money in politics sneak tactics and overall bad taste.

curtkram

my stance is that misleading headlines should be avoided, as should manipulated data. fake news really is hurting our collective intelligence. it would be wiser to seek the truth and allow your opinions to be malleable enough to change as you discover new truths, rather than finding manipulated data to support the opinion you want to hold.

curtkram

not to disparage the opinion you choose to hold. i just don't think posting a link from "right news right now" is constructive.

jla-x

Follow your own advice. I Meant to post the above slate article. Did you read it?

jla-x

Another cdc study...

curtkram

that cdc study from 2003 is not the one mentioned by cns news or from the slate article is it? i will try to follow my own advice, but you're still reinforcing my belief that fake news is poisoning our collective intelligence. it seems either your opinion is formed by substandard sources, or you're seeking out
substandard sources to defend the opinion you want to hold.

jla-x

Hence the word “another”.

jla-x

My opinion is informed by common sense.

b3tadine[sutures]

As usual, you're all over the map. Common sense would see that if you are part of the profession, you're also part of the problem, and hence possibly part of the solution. Common sense would also ask; what is the more likely thing to happen, NCARB gonna change, or just getting the license, and stop carping about the process? Common sense would ask, what's more likely; changing behaviors, or limiting weapons of war from public access, like Heller allows? Common sense would ask, what's more likely; hardening schools - make them like prisons, when people are carping about property taxes, or limiting weapons of war from the mentally deranged?

jla-x

I am 100% for limiting weapons of all kinds from the mentality deranged.

The problem is that everyone is mentally ill. Some are just more so or more often than others. It is not necessarily a full-time or permanent condition.

We've all had our moments. Plus, we live in a society that encourages rather than discourages them. 

b3tadine[sutures]

Common Sense

Feb 24, 18 11:51 am
jla-x

Common sense, bullet proof doors and glass can keep people safer than non-bullet proof doors. It’s a no-brainer safety feature, not a solution. Again, I’ll ask...which door would you rather be behind in such an emergency?

b3tadine[sutures]

You have zero concept. Price that shit out, understand how bonding issues work, and then, call me, but until then - you have zero knowledge. Simplistic - not simplicity - comments, only underscore how little you know, and undermine the professional capacity of those that do, know.

b3tadine[sutures]

3" Thick, $100 sf. How many windows are in a typical school? Let's assume 25 s.f. per opening, and 100 windows. $250,000 just for glazing. Bulletproof doors; $4000 per door, at 100 doors = $400,000. Nearly $1 million for one school. Multiply that by 140,000 K-12 schools = $140,000,000,000.00 - Just to provide those two items.

Math. Sucks. 

Common Sense, ain't so common.

Take this up a level. "We can't afford it" is the common refrain. That's fine for your household budget, but when you are a sovereign government that issues currency you can never run out. Therefore you can afford anything. 

This is not an endorsement of hardening schools, it is a wake up call that the economic system is a complete sham used to benefit specific wealthy interest groups like the military complex, for which the NRA is a front. 

The problem going forward could largely be addressed with taxation. Simply raise the tax on weapons and ammo until it is unaffordable. It's working with cigarettes. When the price of gas goes up people buy smaller cars or take public transit. It's simple economics (at one level).

b3tadine[sutures]

Miles, absolutely. What we can't afford is the same old same old. I just hate the kind simplistic response that hardening targets are the solutions, when they haven't done the basics.

jla-x

I never said that it would be cheap, nor did I say that it would be a solution, but it would likely save lives. You just don’t want to have the conversation because of your ideological opinion about guns. You are entitled to that opinion, but to suggest that defensible space is a waste of time is ridiculous for a number of reasons, not to even mention the possible ineffectiveness of gun laws on such violent crimes. Your argument mirrors that of conservatives who oppose premarital sex, and therefore oppose giving condoms out...despite their acknowledgement of teen pregnancy as a problem. Your view is just as irresponsible.

A good example of deficient reasoning. You're addressing the symptom, not the cause(s).

b3tadine[sutures]

He's always fighting the last war.

curtkram

a defensible space could give the shooter cover and protection from the police that are trying to subdue him.

jla-x

Valid point curt.

shji
jla x. Why dont you argue that everyone should wear bulletproof vest when they go to public space. That is safer, less costly, and less ridiculous than bulletproof doors.
Feb 24, 18 12:53 pm
jla-x

Yeah, and you wouldn’t have to think about a Design solution.

Bulletproof vests are just another kind of poorly considered design solution. Specifically, one that monetizes an aspect of the problem for profit.

Design solutions are not limited to products and can be behavioral, economic, etc. In fact any good product design addresses human factors, it is a basic factor.

Featured Comment
randomised

If you bulletproof the schools they'll just open fire in line for the metal detectors. It's totally bullshit to turn schools into bunkers and fortresses.

Start at the root of the problem, the American society that only rewards winners and sees people who don't or can't make it as a burden...that's where it starts. Guns are only a secondary issue, and shouldn't even be an issue in a civil society where people look after one another. To let architecture solve the problems a violent, segregated society creates is simply putting the cart before the horse.

Open air school by Duiker in Amsterdam (zero mass shootings):

Feb 24, 18 1:44 pm
jla-x

Random, that is a valid point. I agree that isolation is probably the number one problem. That said, what are your thoughts on suburban environments being possible breeding grounds for this type of psycho? Seems like the majority are suburban white kids? Is it possibly environmental?

TED

Open air school by Duiker is brilliant!

randomised

First of all, I don't think those kids are psychos, they are kids. Their brains haven't even fully developed yet. It's that kind of language that creates an us vs them mentality, the winner takes it all, a mindset that encourages bullying, lets groups single out the people that don't want to join in or participate in the rat race or the popularity contest. Most of those school shooters were victims of that system that your use of language hints at. I also don't think isolation is the problem, what isolation? Millions of Americans, probably even the majority, live in the suburbs. I'd say a lack of isolation is the problem. An isolation where kids would be able and allowed to be their "weird" little selves, by themselves if they want to. But if you don't conform to the norm you'll be singled out and will have a target on your back for years to come. Diversity should be encouraged and celebrated yet in reality it is punished, and punished severely, no wonder some kids eventually snap and take matters into their own hands.

Featured Comment
TED

"I Was a Marine. I Don’t Want a Gun in My Classroom.
The presence of a firearm is always an invitation to violence." NYTimes


Feb 25, 18 10:04 am
jla-x

I don’t understand that logic. If we can have the debate without resorting to standard politically divisive name calling you may change my mind. Please explain why banks, airplanes, politicians, etc are protected by armed security? Also please answer this, if you were ever in a life threatening situation, would you use a gun to defend yourself? Can you also acknowledge the fact that guns have been used to stop every mass shooting. I mean, the police didn’t show up and throw rocks at the shooter right?

jla-x

Your entire basis for your argument is that banning guns will eradicate guns. That is simply not true. Millions of illegal guns are already in circulation. That said, I do agree that the people who do these specific types of crimes probably have easier access to legal guns than illegal ones, whereas a kid from the hood has easier access to illegal ones. That said, criminals don’t care about laws. Banning guns will likely just expand the underground market. Like the war on drugs, that can have some unintended consequences and exacerbate the problem even more. If you want to ban guns, it would be a very long term solution. Can you honestly envision guns being eradicated from society? I can’t, so until we must find ways to defend kids from maniacs. I agree that the best defense is recognizing early signs, but that only works if the legal mechanism to stop such a person based on anonymous observations and reports exists. I can imagine lawyers having a field day with claims of due process violations. It’s very complicated.

jla-x

Also TED, I know you never name called, just talking in general...

Arguing that we need guns to protect us from guns is circular reasoning at its finest.

TED

The NY times link looks broken - so here it is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...

jla-x

http://www.mpnnow.com/news/20180224/matt-schaertl-easier-solution-to-school-shootings-than-gun-control


Maybe someone who knows more about codes and school design can elaborate on this?  



Feb 25, 18 11:57 am
Non Sequitur

Fire egress is far more important than school shootings since one is a common ocvurance. Installing delayed devices on exit doors will certainly cause far more problems than simply helping reinforced the stupid false sense of security gun lovers crave. I’ve designed a few systems like these and they are a pain to pass. Too many moving pieces to rely on for basic fire safety.

Volunteer

Does anybody really think that if we give morons like the Broward County sheriff or the 'could care less' FBI more power things will get safer?  

I am no fan of the AR-15 and no one on psychotropic drugs should be allowed to have any gun. That said, this kid was so far gone an attack like that of the Islamic fruitcakes using trucks in Nice and on London Bridge was not out of the question.

The psychiatrist who prescribed the drugs and the drugmaker got their money, you can take that to the bank. The sheriff and his deputies that cowered in the parking lot and the clowns at the FBI certainly cashed their paychecks as well.

It is really time for some extremely serious questioning of the major figures in this tragedy and the firing of not a few people.

Feb 25, 18 3:41 pm
curtkram

should we shame everyone with an anxiety disorder to the point where they are afraid to seek help? i could see how that helps.

curtkram

shaming someone for a bad haircut or for being RBalkins, sure, but shaming someone for anxiety or a serotonin production imbalance doesn't seem right.

Volunteer

No one is talking about 'shaming' the mentally ill. I am saying someone needs to investigate which medicine with which dosage and what side effects and what withdrawal effects were prescribed for this person. If it turns out that the psychiatrist prescribed a very strong drug with dangerous side effects in order to get kickbacks from a pharmaceutical company then that psychiatrist needs to lose his medical license. A common thread in most of the shootings I am aware of is the person is on drugs and NO ONE is calling out either the psychiatrists or the pharma companies.

curtkram

if there was a specific drug that caused people to kill other people, then i would agree there should be some avenue to prevent the person on that drug from buying a firearm. or they should stop prescribing that drug.

Perhaps the psychiatrist who prescribes the medicine should be required to inform whatever database they check when someone buys a gun that this person shouldn't be buying firearms. the database would not have to include why the person isn't able to purchase a weapon, so whatever caused them to get the prescription remains private. you're still discouraging those people who may need help from getting help though.

on the other hand, if you include a line on the application to buy a gun 'are you taking a very common drug such as an ssri or sari, or adderall, or whatever drug/illness you want to target,' then you are literally shaming people for being mentally ill.

curtkram

surely volunteer is talking about the american version of mentally ill (i.e., dsm-5) as it pertains to american gun control legislation?

i just saw on the internet that 1 in 6 americans are on some sort of psychiatric drug


curtkram

somewhere someone is going to go to a psychiatrist with paranoia, and the shrink will tell them the government is not tracking them. then they will prescribe medication to help them, and have to tell them now the government is tracking you.

tintt

Only 1 in 6? Seems too low.

Volunteer

I think about 2% of the population is schizophrenic, schizo-affective, or bi-polar, which is the population I was thinking of. A lot of mental illness is treatable and fully curable, of course, but not usually schizophrenia. Using a pharma database to prevent those patients from owning firearms might be somewhat effective but it is easy to see how it could be abused.

A lot of "mental" illness is temporary, stress induced, etc. 

Non Sequitur

Miles, that's a fine point. Idiots like Balkins who think it's only the main permanent mental health conditions that are a concern when... as you say... people sometimes snap for no other reason than because so. Good thing for them there are an assortment of loaded weapons casual laying around... hurrah freedom.

jla-x

Many psychotropic drugs have known side effects of violence and suicidal thoughts. Paxil, Prozac, etc have been sued many times and have settled hundreds of millions out of court to keep hush.

Non Sequitur

I made a comment earlier which likely is now lost at sea amidst the ramblings but say for a moment we treated gun ownership like we do our architect licenses.  We are equal or better than doctors according to some, so, with that in mind, the health of millions are our responsibility.

For example, it costs me $1000 to claim that I am an architect and another $1000 to practice under my name + monthly insurance premiums.  Why is there not a similar system for those who honestly really really want to carry around murder toys?  Make it mandatory nation wide that insurance and updated license are required or else face large fines and what'not plus your name on a global registry where people can search and see who's a law-abiding good guy with a gun, and who is a crazy gun toting maniac.

Plus, if your weapon is used for a crime or killing spree because you keep in loaded and in the hallway broom closet instead of locked and unloaded + trigger lock, you share the blame and face jail time as accessory.


Feb 25, 18 9:36 pm
tintt

One thing I would like to see changed, let's stop labeling people that are stressed or going through rough times as mentally ill. That is a HUGE FAILURE (one of many) of the heathcare professions and the insurance companies they work for. But nobody dares call them out on it because we aren't doctors. 

Feb 26, 18 9:01 am
Non Sequitur

Maybe we should be doctors.

tintt

Or let's just call them out on it.

randomised

The mislabelling is mostly not done by the professionals but by laymen and laywomen...in my experience, a true professional wouldnt even be able to diagnose someone without proper consultation, even with the best of intentions...they can easily result in selffulfilling prophecies, a black trenchcoat is all it takes to get stigmatised.

tintt

A diagnosis is required to get treated. They have to put a code down in order to satisfy insurance, so that's why they have to diagnose you. The threshold for diagnosis is seeking treatment.

jla-x

True...good points.

jla-x

Over diagnosis is a huge problem. Normal wild behavior is now a “disorder” and kids get put on meds and labeled as hyperactive. FOH.

To follow Non's economic approach:

Make bullets cost $50,000 each.

"I'd put a cap in yo' ass but I gotta get another job first."

"He got shot twice. Somebody really hated him."

-- Chris Rock

As an aside, depending on "mental health professionals" (whose primary job is prescribing mind-altering substances) to address gun violence is even more stupid than turning schools into armored fortresses. 

When the entire society is sick nobody should have a gun.

Feb 26, 18 1:11 pm
sameolddoctor

This

Non Sequitur

Miles, the original cost was $5000... did you adjust for inflation since his early 90s bit?

sameolddoctor

Oh, and never knew there were russian trolls on archinect.

Feb 26, 18 1:14 pm
sameolddoctor

To the shithead that claims self-defense is a valid approach, are you saying that we should give sandy-hook age kids guns? You seriously either have a mental issue/no grasp of reality.

Or maybe your idea of school is to recreate the Wild West.

Feb 26, 18 1:17 pm
jla-x

No. Simplistic reasoning on your part if that’s the conclusion that you came to. I’ll ask again, why do banks, politicians, etc have armed security (including the “liberal” ones) if guns are ineffective for self defense? Also, as stated, what have police used to stop terroists, shooters, etc? A) rocks B) hugs C) guns. I am saying that well trained security can be beefed up. Not a fan of the arming teachers thing, but not really against it either. Haven’t made up mind on that one. Sounds like a recipe for kids to fear teachers especially in minority schools where teachers have been known to call police on kids for behavior that any rational adult should be able to handle. My nephew was handcuffed and nearly arrested for “assault” because he is black and bumped past his teacher who was standing in doorway as she told him to leave . He was like 9 years old at the time I believe. Also, Russian trolls are not necessary...dumb cnn sjw liberals are doing enough to troll people into voting for orange Potus again.

jla-x

I really can’t argue with you anymore. It’s obvious that your ability to have a constructive conversation is handicapped by political identity if you cannot even acknowledge that guns are used in self defense. I’m not saying it’s a solution to anything, but at least acknowledge that reality, put it out there as a possible option, and then debate whether it’s a good or bad idea. It’s a fact that guns are used for self defense and as a deterrent. Whether the beefed up security does harm than good, that’s a debate that we can have, and I really don’t know. But to pretend that self defense is a fake concept is just beyond reason. Such unbending dedication to a pre-scripted political identity is a mental handicap. Be a political atheist.

jla-x

My initial post was that WE designers should be in the debate regarding security design. While many have yelled about schools becoming prisons, do you not think they will unless the situation is well thought about in the Design community? Designers can find ways to possibly (hypothesis not guaranteed) design spaces, technology, features, that can save lives in the case of another tradgedy. This thread has become a microcosm or the Country/world. Everyone is so entrenched in their politics that the conversation can’t even happen. This is crazy.

jla-x

*design spaces, technology, features, that can save lives in the case of an emergency, without feeling and looking like a prison.

Non Sequitur

I would not want my son in a school with armed teachers.

cnn sjw liberals ... 

I really can’t argue with you anymore. It’s obvious that your ability to have a constructive conversation is handicapped by political identity

Too funny. And perfectly explains the quality of the 'reasoning'.

shji

How about churches, malls, theaters, and parks? You want to see securities with deadly weapons on every corner every time you go to pick up your kids and every Sunday service? That sounds like a dystopia right there. That's like saying since terrorists can fly their planes in to you, beef up and bullet proof every buildings including that CVS building across the street and every mac mansions in the country. And you sound like you are the one struggling with your political identity. I will not argue with you anymore, but I just hope there are not many architects like you because they need to be responsible for people's life and safety.

jla-x

Since 9-11 we have secured cock pit doors, and started putting Air Marshals on planes. Is that not a good thing?

jla-x

An Air Marshall would’ve likely saved thousands of lives had he/she been aboard those planes. Do you agree?

jla-x

Let me teach you shji how a designer thinks. Guns exist, I don’t have a magic wand to make them not exist, therefore let’s help to remedy a problem that dose not seem to be going away anytime soon as unfortunate as that is. People don’t want armed teachers, president may sign a bill that allows teachers to be armed. Concerns,
teachers will have guns

jla-x

*99.99999% of the time when nothing is happening. Possible design solution, design a gun that is concealed in a wall safe that can be electronically opened and activated to be operational by local police, or by a police officer stationed at that school and deactivated upon arrival of police at that school to close the 5-7 minute gap that a police response typically takes. Not saying it’s a good idea, but something to put out there for debate. That was the point of this thread.

jla-x

Not architecture necessarily, but a design concept...by your logic, even approaching the subject in anyway that doesn’t rely on govt banning and confiscating all guns (which is not possible) is irresponsible. I think the inverse is true.

Keep thinking inside the box, that's where all the really innovative solutions are. And monetize the shit out of it, because that's the most important thing in conventional thinking.

Let me teach you how a problem solver thinks. You identify a problem, analyze it thoroughly to determine the causes of it, then develop solutions that reduce and/or eliminate those causes.

jla-x

Which are?

jla-x

And likelihood of it happening?

sameolddoctor

Jla, True, there is no point arguing with you, as you will not change, and live in your naive beliefs that this is an architectural issue. I'd love though, to see what your reasoning is behind how the Las Vegas attacks could have been stopped. They had metal detectors and tons of security guards. But the attacker chose to use a tall building next door. The same can happen with schools.

On the other hand, I find it appalling that you have a kid and you can think of armed teachers/student situation.

jla-x

It’s pie in the sky thinking to suggest that all guns, including the illegal ones, and 250 million existing ones, will be removed from society during trumps administration when the dems had the reigns for 8 years and couldn’t even ban bump stocks. We have a better chance of aliens invading imo.

jla-x

Are you mental sod? I never said anything remotely suggesting arming students. I said arming teachers is probably not a good idea, but not sure. Learn to read. I’m appalled that you are entrusted to protect the hsw of society and can’t even discuss school security as a legitimate subject matter on an Internet forum. You're right, let’s just create a utopian society where crime and terrorism doesn’t exist.

Dismissing any solution eliminates the possibility of it happening. That's not design or problem solving, that's obstinate stupidity.

jla-x

And yes, all the schools in my area have a police office stationed at each all day. Makes me feel a lot better. The kids hardly notice. Could be a step towards integrating community policing as well. I’m sure it’s good to get police off the streets and around kids/parents once and a while to expose them to the 99% non-criminal element of the community. Would you sod rather have a police officer at a school or not?

jla-x

Miles, you assume that it’s good to remove guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. As stated, guns are used in self defense something like a million times a year. Yes, if it where guaranteed the guns can be removed from all, good and bad, legal and illegal, I would agree, but that’s impossible. How’s the war on drugs working out?

jla-x

That would simply tip the scale in favor of the crooks. I know several women who work in sketchy areas and carry. These are not gun nuts, just ordinary professional women who want to protect themselves. What will you tell them? What will you tell the jewelry store owner? It’s very unfair to disarm a law abiding citizen when they rely on that security...especially those who are in dangerous areas, physically unable to fight an attacker, or in
dangerous lines of work.

Legalizing drugs would remove the criminal element and violent crime based on the drug trade.

jla-x

I agree 100%. And making guns illegal would just drive the underground market....and if the drug market is surrounded by such violence, imagine how bad the gun market would be.

Australia did it. "the National Firearms Agreement prohibited automatic and semiautomatic assault rifles and pump shotguns in all but unusual cases. It tightened licensing rules, established a 28-day waiting period for gun purchases, created a national gun registry and instituted a temporary buyback program that removed more than 20 percent of firearms from public circulation."

So don't say it can't be done.

Non Sequitur

Miles, are you suggesting other countries do thing better than americans? How novel.

randomised

"An Air Marshall would’ve likely saved thousands of lives had he/she been aboard those planes. Do you agree?"


No they wouldn't have because the terrorists would have chosen an easier way to kill all those people in that case, maybe not the exact same people, maybe even more. A terrorist is not going to give it all up, retire and become a model citizen just because of some air Marshalls, how naive are you really? They would've chosen a different way to cause mayhem, because that's what terrorists do. What does work is to eliminate the reasons that terrorists become terrorists, give them something to live for, and again air Marshalls aren't that either. The same could be argued with school shooters, eliminate the reasons why they think mass murder is the answer et voila, seems to work everywhere else but in the States.

Feb 27, 18 1:42 am

Exactly. Fix the source of the problem don't put layers of bandages on the result.

jla-x

“ They would've chosen a different way to cause mayhem, because that's what terrorists do.” Ok, by your own logic, that’s an argument people often use for the ineffectiveness of gun control. I could just as easily say—if guns are banned, they will find another way to cause mayhem—The misconception is that self-defense preparation is equal to violence. It’s not. It’s also a misconception that we can’t prepare for self defense while simultaneously addressing the root of the problem. There is a saying in martial arts...”it’s better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war”

jla-x

Meaning, yes strive for peace and non-violence, but always be fit for survival.

randomised

You shouldn't compare the terrorist that wants to cause mayhem nonetheless with gun control but with the school shooter that sees no other escape than going out with a bang, therefore your logic and argument is faulty. If you don't address the reasons school shootings occur, nothing will change, they will simply drive a truck into a crowd or whatever.

jla-x

The reasons are debatable. I don’t buy the idea that we are all blank slates and some, because of a unique set of circumstances, can become mass killers. That’s simply untrue. I believe they are probably genetically pre-disposed to being sociopaths and psychopaths. Actually, scientists found a “serial killer gene”. While a small fraction of the population carries this gene, and never become serial killers, a large portion of serial killers (if not all) carry it. This suggests that it’s nature and nurture. As society goes, this desire for fame and infamy is very pervasive these days. Media is giving these killers the fame they desire. Step one stop giving them a name. Step two, stop making kids soft. This over emphasis on bullying, bully free zones, etc is making kids hyper sensitive to any normal playground socialization. Bullying is real, and really bad, but there is a line. By making everyone hyper vigilant/ hyper-sensitive we are elevating the power of words... What ever happened to “sticks and stones...”. We are creating a victim mentality, and when someone identifies as a victim, well then, there is an enemy...an oppressor. We should be teaching kids to be head-strong.

jla-x

Step 3, Fathers need to stop abandoning their families. The lack of a father figure is a common feature with these types of mass killers. Not sure why, but maybe because they have a warped idea of their masculinity...these are all young males with the exception of the Vegas shooter. Not a psychologist, but there is a correlation it seems. Step 4...this is where the schools can be improved, recognize and foster divergent talents and interests. It’s important that young people have interests in things. Sports are fine, but not everyone likes sports. Allow kids to pursue things that interest them. Without a sense of Purpose, people, especially young males, will often turn to destructive behaviors. Step 5...lead by example. Tribalism is replacing individuality more and more every day, and as it does, personal responsibility for the way we treat others will be ignored more and more, and group think/identity will be more and more pervasive...leading to a peer pressure to exclude or ignore certain people even when conscience says its wrong. This further isolates the outsiders, and allows their warning signs to go unnoticed.

jla-x

If we keep thinking that our problems are the governments responsibility to fix, rather than ours as a community, this will continue. At its root, this is a sociological and psychological problem, not a legal or political one. I personally find it strange that we so often welcome this surrender of responsibility to the state, especially given the morally bankrupt nature of our politicians.

jla-x

That all said, if you live in a bad neighborhood, you may have a ton of ideas how to improve that neighborhood..you may even actively be doing something to improve it, but you still lock your doors and do what you have to do to keep yourself safe.

jla-x

So, I don’t necessarily disagree with some of what you all are saying. I just think that you are talking long term solutions to an immediate problem. We need short and long term solutions.

Volunteer

Anyone ever consider that the inmates of a prison are quite safe from being shot or terrorized from people outside the prisons? If you want a safe school you can look to prison construction for clues.

Or, you can look at places like St. Albans in DC where the kids of the movers and shakers attend. There the security is subtle and layered but probably more effective than the prison approach. It is also much better for the mental health of the attending students.

Feb 27, 18 7:48 am
Non Sequitur

What about autonomous turrets and drones armed with tasers? I am sure that will make the dumb ones feel safe.

tintt

I know. Let's design a mental hygiene program.

Feb 27, 18 1:16 pm

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