I'm paying and spending a lot of time learning CAD both mechanical and architectual only to be told that it's going to practically be obsolete soon?? That's wild. BIM is the next big thing and it's not a program you can learn. I was told to learn revitt but should I drop out of my CAD classes and just learn Revitt? Or do I need to know CAD before learning a program like Revitt? I just want to be ahead of the game. Or should I just completely save my dough and just wait until I start my construction management degree in July? I'm enrolled in a masters in CM. There are a few courses on BIM in the curriculum. I just wanted to have both CAD skills and a CM degree to make me more competitive. But what should I do? Any advice will help. Thanks.
Nope, traditional CAD not going anywhere but it's a wise move to learn all forms of digital drafting. Gota know all the tools, and know them well enough that you can evolve with the times.
Perfect! Then I'm on the right course. I'm doing CAD now then when I start my CM degree I'll pick up Revitt in between. There are few courses at local college here. How will this all help me when looking for work? Having the necessary drafting skills plus a management degree to do the typical estimating, bidding, scheduling, project management, etc? I'm not looking to work for the big firms unless it's easier to get entry level work but for mid size or small contracting construction companies maybe?
Yes I figured as much but I have a few places to intern. But do you mean actually get on a site and do drywall construction or something? How do civil engineers or scam grads go straight into working for the city as project managers?
CAD and Revit are tools to produce drawings. If you want to show someone that you know how a wall is put together make a small set of construction documents for a garage or a small building and figure out how to keep the water out and the heat in and all of the other stuff.
Details show your ability to understand how a building is built.
I hear you Peter but it seems like the market cares more about hiring someone who knows what buttons to push over knowing how to create a functional building envelope.
That's good news. So CAD will still be useful. I still want to learn Revit too. Now on the topic of construction management, what kind of experience does one need to break in? Actual field work as in laying the materials down or in the office? How do you break in?
Rhino does everything CAD does in 2D, plus has one of the best surface modeling packages in the world, all for $950.
When I hear about firms still stuck on CAD, I just have to assume the leadership is so removed from production that they have no idea what works and what doesn't and have no interest in learning.
Do I really need to learn autocad to do construction management? Experience I'm not worried about, my family is in the industry and finding entry level work won't be difficult. I was just wondering if CAD would put me on a different level than others? If it would enhance the CM degree I'll be earning? In the curriculum are a lot of BIM electives I could sign up for.
Mar 31, 16 10:37 pm ·
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For construction management, you need to know how to read construction documents and specifications. You should know enough of the program to navigate the plans. You don't need to know necessarily how to design the building. You may want to know how to put a note or question as part of the feedback dialog like another layer in CAD or something and put a non-destructive circle over the drawing with a note.
Not a far stretch from having acetate over each sheet and a acetate compatible dry erase marker. The point is communicating and knowing how to communicate and utilize the software features that enables that like a markup note to send feedback to the architects or ask questions for clarification.
The bottom line is CM job in general is not about designing as far as the role of the position goes.
I hope the essence of my point, albeit general, is enough. Yes, there are people who does both and in their eyes may not see the separation of roles because it is all that integrated so they aren't really operating in distinct delineated roles.
The use of BIM from a CM is about reading the plans/specs not about creating the building model design or CAD drawings and specs. That's the architect / designer role not the CM role (unless you are both).
Excellent info. Just the advice I needed. In your opinion is taking a while auto cad course to earn a cert necessary or are you suggesting to pick it up on my own and gain a cursory knowledge? The program I'm now is a short but intensive course in the fundamentals and a specialization in architecture CAD. Is that sufficient? What do most CMs in the industry have under their belt?
Unless you'll be working on incredibly large or extremely complex buildings, as a CM you're very unlikely to even have access to digital CAD or BIM files. You'll be working from PDFs and the printed sheets 99.9999% of the time. In fact, the working files are not generally supposed to be made available to contractors. Printed sheets are the architects and engineers' "instruments of service" and along with specifications and more paperwork, form the deliverables that the contractor uses to price and plan construction.
Apr 1, 16 2:40 am ·
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bowling_ball,
Good point. I was leaving open even the possibility of the CM or CPM or PM having access to the digital files. You are right regarding most projects, in the typical Design-Bid-Build and some of the other project delivery model, except the very large ones. Hell, even the PDFs might not be delivered to the contractor or CM/CPM but the printed sets. I won't get into the copyright and protection of copyright reasons where an architect or designer doesn't issue digital files (including the PDFs). Lets just say they have their choices and reasoning/opinion regarding the matters.
I will present a caveat point. For example, DESIGN-BUILD project delivery. In this scenario, the contractor and architect is quite often one business entity so that's a whole different ball game but the in-house CM would however have access to the digital files. It is worth noting.
Apr 1, 16 2:58 am ·
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manoverde84,
Your most important skill in CM/CPM/PM work aside from construction management / project management skills is being able to read and interpret construction documents and construction specifications, communication and coordination skills.
You have to determine what you want to do as a career. I'll say that if it is CM work then I would not worry too much about any more autocad/bim or whatever courses than what the degree curriculum requires unless you want to do it as an elective if you decide you want to design buildings.
Later, you could pursue an architecture degree such as a 3yr. M.Arch regardless of whether or not you get licensed. I recommend an architecture degree even if you want to be unlicensed yet legally practicing building designer/residential designer vs. a licensed architect. In which case, you may want to possibly take some drafting or CAD or BIM courses from a community college / technical school or university in addition to the core courses of an architecture program so you have some proficiency because you would likely have to do it yourself versus passing the grunt work of drafting to a CAD technician/drafter (CAD monkey) or BIM Technician (BIMpanzee).
The above is good advice. CAD is not going away any time soon. Many buildings, whether architects like it or not, are built with "legacy" drawings, which would have been done before BIM took hold.
Most cars come with automatic transmissions now, but it's still a good idea to be able to drive with stick shift.
Archanonymous: It's not just stubbornness that keeps some firms on CAD. It's that productivity gets killed for a period of time when you change over. Small jobs just don't require great sophistication in drawings, and who wants to keep climbing learning curves for no real reason.
...it seems like the market cares more about hiring someone who knows what buttons to push over knowing how to create a functional building envelope
Building owners are buying envelopes, not methodologies. Keep your eye on the ultimate goal of all this angst.
All great advice guys much appreciated. I've tried so many times to jump into an arch program as a career switch but the time management was killer. I can't go full time because of my job commitments. I love the building and construction fields and I grew up around it with family being in it so I want to go into it but considering my educational background is all economics business and math I thought project management would be best. The business side would be the best way in. I only wanted to learn CAD to be able to not only read the drawings but have a leg up by being somewhat on par with the designers at least on speaking terms. One of the biggest complaints my family has as contractors is speaking to the architects or engineers about certain drawings. And I know for a fact no one in my family has ever taken a single CAD course yet are able to bid and estimate big projects. That's why I was wondering if it was really necessary. They're just a rinky dink company that bids small local stuff but I was wondering if it was the same all over big, medium, and small? What I'm trying to say is will having an extensive knowledge of CAD give me a leg up at all in CM? Would it help me stand out in this competitor marketplace? Would I be able to not only hit the ground running but be able to understand and do the job better than other CMs because of the skill? Yes maybe down the line I will get an arch degree.
echoing geezertect - unless you have software savvy staff, the cost of switching over is huge in hours lost (not to mention the license fees).
Short answer: knowing CAD or BIM won't hurt you, but experience going through construction on projects is the most valuable thing. Nothing can really replace that.
Long answer: I'm not sure how software gets you a leg up in construction management - you need to be able to read the drawings and understand that information. More and more CM firms want graduates that know BIM because they get a model from the architects - you need to be able to extract information from it (quantities of materials, etc) but not necessarily build it. Troubleshooting models and understanding what errors might be in a model is helpful, but that comes from years of experience. Being facile in the software may help in reducing errors in bids (therefore being able to maintain some profitability), but experience is more likely to trump being a software expert.
Ditto on good CM work - it's about anticipating difficulties and understanding critical path (what things have to happen in order for a project to stay on schedule).
Yeah it seems more and more that I might just have to stick to the business management side of things unless I fully immerse myself in a dedicated study of design. I just wanted to bridge the gap by being well versed in the basics of design to improve my skills as a CM. Most of the curriculum for my masters program has foundational courses already in construction drawing reading to understand what it is I'm looking at. There are BIM courses to choose from too elective wise and everything else I guess you just pick up on the job from what you guys are saying? I'm spending a lot of time and energy with these CAD courses but if they aren't going to give me any leg up or anything that I wouldn't learn in my masters CM program then I don't know if I should continue. The only way I could see it helping is if I went to work for my family's company who could use someone skilled in CAD and BIM in order to like you says reduce errors in bids. I mean their business is so small and old school, no one knows CAD and even less BIM that I know of (never mentioned it) , I figured it would help to build it up the biz by updating skill set.
Apr 1, 16 11:57 am ·
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manoverde84,
If anything, you can learn from some Youtube videos of parts of the software pertinent to what you would need and familiarize yourself in the UI environment but BIM studies in CM programs would differ from BIM studies in architecture program even though you are working with the same software..... you would use it differently.
Generally, you use the software in CM work for what 3tk said. You would not be learning so much to design buildings but to extract information from the model to get quantity of materials, etc. (as 3tk noted). It's about using the model to get information from not about designing.
I wouldn't worry about focusing on that. If it is an elective in your CM courses, sure, take the courses on BIM. As for CAD, you will likely just get the prints from the architects/designers. You would take off from the drawings, schedules on the plans, and specifications.
If you want to learn more about designing at some point, worry about it later. Don't overwhelm yourself at this point.
Yes you're right. I'm overwhelming myself too much. The CAD programs were more than I can take because I'm just not as deign savvy as I thought. I don't think I could go any further than a basic course and even then I'm still wondering if I should continue. It's taking ten hours of my already 40+ hour workweek and then I just right into a CM program this July. Unless CAD is going to propel me into the front of the line then I'd rather just not continue. I could learn it on my own using available online materials. I know you have to know how to read the drawings not design them but for some reason in my newbie mind I have this notion that if you know how to design a drawing then you'd know not only how to read drawings but be at an advantage by seeing stuff that those that don't design can't. I thought since I lack the experience that would substitute for it. That's the kicker. I would only continue if ot brought something tangible to the table by giving me an eye for things and seeing a drawing in a much more advanced way than if I just were a CM.
Stick with the CM degree. If you want to become a CAD/revit monkey then you would want to focus on learning those programs. Sadly, most if not all entry-mid level job positions offered for ppl with architecture degree is exactly that, CAD monkey jobs.
Perhaps you realized this just from your short stint doing this CAD class, that drafting even in Revit (BIM) can become quite monotonous and boring.
You'll make more money on the CM side of the AEC industry, and will most likely enjoy your career more so as a CM than you ever would attempting to become some magnanimous architect.\
Also, it is horrible to your health to sit and troll out on a computer all day every day for decades , as Zaha demonstrated sadly.
For most users AutoCAD is literally going to be points, line and polyline tools. I don't understand why you need to use AutoCAD as a CM. BIM isn't even a program, if you were going to be using revit all you'd need is literally the viewing capabilities which you can get from a few A360 viewer that's web based.
If you were coordinating or any of the sort then you need Navisworks or a program along the lines.
That's literally it.
Detwan nailed it. I glamorized all aspects of design as the mystique surrounding the design field can cloud someone's judgement into thinking they're going to be design geniuses with some basic CAD courses. I do at least want to attempt to see how far I go in this course but I prolly won't go past the fundamentals. I was going to go all the way to learning arch, mechanical and electrical. From your experience there are few CMs with extensive CAD backgrounds as what they know from the trade supersedes any need to learn the basics of design? There is absolutely nothing having autocad experience can bring to the CM job?
You know if reading construction docs is the key thing then would it serve me better to just do an intro to construction drawing class? Those are pretty easy to find and are cheaper and quicker. Thoughts?
Knowing CAD can bring a lot to a CM. As a Construction Project Manager, I've had to draw plenty of details or drawings to either explain something to a sub contractor on how it's suppose to be installed or sometimes to send to the architect for approval.
Apr 2, 16 10:10 pm ·
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So can a pencil and paper, Benny. (intended as a kind jab)
Manoverde84, it appears that you are new to the industry. If I was going into a CM degree, I would look at the course silibus and start reading early. I would also go old school, buy a used book on construction details and hand trace the wall sections. Most of it will be an alien language, but once understood it will keep you employable for a long time. Good luck!
Oh I know what you mean dsc arch. I'm already doing that and will start reading soon before my classes start in July. Meantime, I'm still so in the dark about the advantage CAD will bring me to CM. Some say it could help or some say it won't. I just want a definitive answer with a simple explanation either yes it will give you an advantage or no it really won't you're wasting your time. If so just what advantage could it bring? Point is if an employer is looking at my resume and sees I've got autocad skills and a CM degree, would it look good to him? Not just the experience which I'd gain later but just counting for that? If it looks weird, as though "why did he go out and get that autocad cert for" and I look like a newbie, then I might as well stop now. I just want to know if it's normal for CMs to even have that skill under their belt? If not, then would having it make me look more favorable in a competitive market? Or would it just look silly?
Manoverde, it's not a black or white question, as CM is not a single job description. In the real world there is rarely a right or wrong answer the way there is in school, so get used to ambiguity.
I can't imagine a situation where putting CAD proficiency on your resume would be a bad thing. Lots of engineers and would-be architects go into CM, so having CAD skills is not unusual. If you are interested in smaller firms, having a broader skill set would be valuable. In larger firms it may be less important, as your job description may be narrower, but even then I can't imagine it being a detriment.
I am mostly interested in working for smaller firms, contractors or for the city. I know I shouldn't sell myself short but I just don't think at my age I have a shot with the big firms. I'm not really interested in the bigger firms like Skanka or AECOM if that's what ya mean.
Apr 3, 16 3:38 pm ·
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I don't think anyone here had said it is a detriment but it is a suggestion for right now to not get too focuses on CAD. Understand the CM and then maybe 'organically' apply studies in CAD be it a little self-study & practice and maybe a few formal courses but don't lose sight on the end goal that you are trying to define.
If you are going to look at CM work, I'd suggest not worrying too much about the size of the firms. It is not like I have to be an expert in CAD to be a CM. There is opportunities that you can worry about later. You can dabble with it a little between now and say the end of the year and work with the stuff and get a little bit of general user understanding of how the program works. Worry about the more advance CAD stuff until you get some of the CM stuff under your belt and build a better understanding of the vocabulary and reading plans and so forth. Look at it more through a natural growth and evolution so don't force yourself to learn CAD or BIM too heavily if you aren't ready. You got some foundational stuff in CM courses that will be helpful for you in getting a grounding so you can better wrap your head around CAD & BIM. Don't overwhelm yourself. Patience will help you out in the long run.
Dsc Arc, you mentioned that after the necessary requirements that I would be pretty employable for a while? Is the CM field much more a lucrative investment than straight design? It seems as though it'd be much more transferable through different branches of construction, no? And I'm thinking I'm gonna continue with this short fundamentals course and leave it at that. I'll pick up anymore along the way. I need to play up my strengths and design is secondary to the business management and math I've done most of my career. I'm sure there is a construction economics field somewhere.
Apr 3, 16 6:39 pm ·
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manoverde84,
Who do you think clients going to value. The persons that prepares a bunch of drawings or a person who is managing or otherwise responsible for the construction of the building.
What do clients want more? Drawings or buildings?
Think about where people are going to put their money towards?
That is what Dsc Arc is implying you to think when looking at where in the whole AEC industry the money is spent.
AIA, AIBD and some of the other architecture / building design associations that represents us plus the interior designer associations.... all of them combined is a fraction of the size of the NAHB.
That's a fair indication of where the cash is and where people put their money.
He has no formal training, no experience, and has never built/designed anything larger than perhaps a deck for his mother's house. Hes a wannabe designer with a hard-on for long and elaborate gibberish opinions. Just take a look at his other posts.
Oh man, well non would you care to chime in. You seem like an honest albeit rather blunt individual. What's your opinion? Give it to me straight, man. I need the God's honest.
There will be room for both for a long time but it'll vary greatly on the scale (size) of the projects. Project documentation will creep steadily towards BIM as more and more clients see the collaboration value but do keep in mind that knowing what buttons to press on a computer does not make you qualified for construction management. The one I deal with daily on my BIM projects sell high the value of the software to the client but yet are performing so poorly due to their lack of experience. Why they put in fresh college grads in charge is beyond me.
Anyone knowledgeable in construction can use any software (CAD or BIM) and get the job done. Best to get very familiar with both and stay on top.
... and thanks for referring to me as god. It's a common association I receive but I am forced to correct you since unlike the reference, I am both real and awesome.
My dilemma is that I was accepted and am starting a CM program soon in July and am excited about it. Only thing is that I thought I could squeeze in an auto cad intro course in between now and July. It's pretty intensive but I'm holding my own. I was just wondering how important it is for a CM to have extensive knowledge in CAD? Some of the questions i asked above were basically if knowing CAD is essential for CMs. I mean not just taking the time out yourself to learn it but have a certificate degree in it and know it extensively? Some in here say that I will pick up what I need to know in my CM masters program and on the job, that I don't really need the added autocad cert course to do the job. I just wanted it because I thought knowing CAD would give my the eye to understand drawings from not only the CM perspective but the designers too.
Mano, getting a certificate is not the same thing as knowing the program "extensively." I have well over 10,000 hours on Autocad and still learn new things weekly. (At least it's not daily anymore.) A certificate just means you know the basics. Knowledge is power. Unless you are weak in another area critical for CM's, such as Excel, take the program.
Excel I'm great at. I use that for my job and I've already pretty much mastered that. I see what you mean but I was just going to stop at the basics of autocad with this cert. There are options to continue and get advanced certs and such. But you're right I would never be as proficient as a full time designer. I just want to be able to talk the language and see it from a designers pov. I just thought that would've brought something different to the table than just doing CM work and knowing all spreadsheets and numbers.
m84, just take the course and relax. being familiar with cad is generally useful in any management role within the aec industry - but its not a leg up or shortcut for anything. it has nothing to do with understanding design either. its really just a communication tool. one of many, but a fairly basic foundation for everything that gets done, and not that hard to become familiar with. its a less complex software than revit, so might as well start with it.
for a cm position, worrying about being good at cad is like worrying about being good at email. if you can send and read messages, you're all set.
Thanks guys. I'm just gonna take the course. Actually what's funny is that once I downloaded the free student software I noticed many videos and tools available to learn the functions and stuff. I was basically stubbed that I just payed for a course when the instructions were right there and I could've learned at my own pace. But I guess I just wanted that paper to certify that I was proficient in the basics to any prospective employer.
manoverde84, as an architect /CM knowing how to use AutoCAD will not make it easier for you to understand drawings. AutoCAD is just a drawing tool. In fact, as a CM, you probably will not come in contact with AutoCAD at all! Revit/Navis would be a much more useful tools to learn because of BIM. A big part of the CM's job is anticipating and avoiding delays and added cost. BIM is a major tool to have in your bag of tricks.
That aside, building science theory and FIELD experience are the only things that are going to truly help you out here. Read the IBS/Codes, look at the dwgs, READ the Gen Notes, READ the specs, then march on out into the field and ask the foremen tons of questions. Live in the field! See the work in place. In time, understanding how to building will help you as a CM. It will help you budget better, schedule better, manage better. Thing is there is no fast track, only time and experience.
Auto Cad on the way out?
I'm paying and spending a lot of time learning CAD both mechanical and architectual only to be told that it's going to practically be obsolete soon?? That's wild. BIM is the next big thing and it's not a program you can learn. I was told to learn revitt but should I drop out of my CAD classes and just learn Revitt? Or do I need to know CAD before learning a program like Revitt? I just want to be ahead of the game. Or should I just completely save my dough and just wait until I start my construction management degree in July? I'm enrolled in a masters in CM. There are a few courses on BIM in the curriculum. I just wanted to have both CAD skills and a CM degree to make me more competitive. But what should I do? Any advice will help. Thanks.
Nope, traditional CAD not going anywhere but it's a wise move to learn all forms of digital drafting. Gota know all the tools, and know them well enough that you can evolve with the times.
Perfect! Then I'm on the right course. I'm doing CAD now then when I start my CM degree I'll pick up Revitt in between. There are few courses at local college here. How will this all help me when looking for work? Having the necessary drafting skills plus a management degree to do the typical estimating, bidding, scheduling, project management, etc? I'm not looking to work for the big firms unless it's easier to get entry level work but for mid size or small contracting construction companies maybe?
you'll need real construction experience before you get started in estimating. All the certificates in the world won't equal a month in the field.
Yes I figured as much but I have a few places to intern. But do you mean actually get on a site and do drywall construction or something? How do civil engineers or scam grads go straight into working for the city as project managers?
I love CAD. It's perfect for landscape...I don't really need anything else...
It ain't dead or dying.
The end.
CAD and Revit are tools to produce drawings. If you want to show someone that you know how a wall is put together make a small set of construction documents for a garage or a small building and figure out how to keep the water out and the heat in and all of the other stuff.
Details show your ability to understand how a building is built.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Because firm XYZ is using or trying to move to software XYZ, if you can't use the tools how are you going to do the job?
That's good news. So CAD will still be useful. I still want to learn Revit too. Now on the topic of construction management, what kind of experience does one need to break in? Actual field work as in laying the materials down or in the office? How do you break in?
this seems as good a place as any for a CAD rant.
It is idiotic, bloated, slow, and expensive.
Rhino does everything CAD does in 2D, plus has one of the best surface modeling packages in the world, all for $950.
When I hear about firms still stuck on CAD, I just have to assume the leadership is so removed from production that they have no idea what works and what doesn't and have no interest in learning.
Do I really need to learn autocad to do construction management? Experience I'm not worried about, my family is in the industry and finding entry level work won't be difficult. I was just wondering if CAD would put me on a different level than others? If it would enhance the CM degree I'll be earning? In the curriculum are a lot of BIM electives I could sign up for.
For construction management, you need to know how to read construction documents and specifications. You should know enough of the program to navigate the plans. You don't need to know necessarily how to design the building. You may want to know how to put a note or question as part of the feedback dialog like another layer in CAD or something and put a non-destructive circle over the drawing with a note.
Not a far stretch from having acetate over each sheet and a acetate compatible dry erase marker. The point is communicating and knowing how to communicate and utilize the software features that enables that like a markup note to send feedback to the architects or ask questions for clarification.
The bottom line is CM job in general is not about designing as far as the role of the position goes.
I hope the essence of my point, albeit general, is enough. Yes, there are people who does both and in their eyes may not see the separation of roles because it is all that integrated so they aren't really operating in distinct delineated roles.
The use of BIM from a CM is about reading the plans/specs not about creating the building model design or CAD drawings and specs. That's the architect / designer role not the CM role (unless you are both).
Excellent info. Just the advice I needed. In your opinion is taking a while auto cad course to earn a cert necessary or are you suggesting to pick it up on my own and gain a cursory knowledge? The program I'm now is a short but intensive course in the fundamentals and a specialization in architecture CAD. Is that sufficient? What do most CMs in the industry have under their belt?
Unless you'll be working on incredibly large or extremely complex buildings, as a CM you're very unlikely to even have access to digital CAD or BIM files. You'll be working from PDFs and the printed sheets 99.9999% of the time. In fact, the working files are not generally supposed to be made available to contractors. Printed sheets are the architects and engineers' "instruments of service" and along with specifications and more paperwork, form the deliverables that the contractor uses to price and plan construction.
bowling_ball,
Good point. I was leaving open even the possibility of the CM or CPM or PM having access to the digital files. You are right regarding most projects, in the typical Design-Bid-Build and some of the other project delivery model, except the very large ones. Hell, even the PDFs might not be delivered to the contractor or CM/CPM but the printed sets. I won't get into the copyright and protection of copyright reasons where an architect or designer doesn't issue digital files (including the PDFs). Lets just say they have their choices and reasoning/opinion regarding the matters.
I will present a caveat point. For example, DESIGN-BUILD project delivery. In this scenario, the contractor and architect is quite often one business entity so that's a whole different ball game but the in-house CM would however have access to the digital files. It is worth noting.
manoverde84,
Your most important skill in CM/CPM/PM work aside from construction management / project management skills is being able to read and interpret construction documents and construction specifications, communication and coordination skills.
You have to determine what you want to do as a career. I'll say that if it is CM work then I would not worry too much about any more autocad/bim or whatever courses than what the degree curriculum requires unless you want to do it as an elective if you decide you want to design buildings.
Later, you could pursue an architecture degree such as a 3yr. M.Arch regardless of whether or not you get licensed. I recommend an architecture degree even if you want to be unlicensed yet legally practicing building designer/residential designer vs. a licensed architect. In which case, you may want to possibly take some drafting or CAD or BIM courses from a community college / technical school or university in addition to the core courses of an architecture program so you have some proficiency because you would likely have to do it yourself versus passing the grunt work of drafting to a CAD technician/drafter (CAD monkey) or BIM Technician (BIMpanzee).
The above is good advice. CAD is not going away any time soon. Many buildings, whether architects like it or not, are built with "legacy" drawings, which would have been done before BIM took hold.
Most cars come with automatic transmissions now, but it's still a good idea to be able to drive with stick shift.
Archanonymous: It's not just stubbornness that keeps some firms on CAD. It's that productivity gets killed for a period of time when you change over. Small jobs just don't require great sophistication in drawings, and who wants to keep climbing learning curves for no real reason.
...it seems like the market cares more about hiring someone who knows what buttons to push over knowing how to create a functional building envelope
Building owners are buying envelopes, not methodologies. Keep your eye on the ultimate goal of all this angst.
All great advice guys much appreciated. I've tried so many times to jump into an arch program as a career switch but the time management was killer. I can't go full time because of my job commitments. I love the building and construction fields and I grew up around it with family being in it so I want to go into it but considering my educational background is all economics business and math I thought project management would be best. The business side would be the best way in. I only wanted to learn CAD to be able to not only read the drawings but have a leg up by being somewhat on par with the designers at least on speaking terms. One of the biggest complaints my family has as contractors is speaking to the architects or engineers about certain drawings. And I know for a fact no one in my family has ever taken a single CAD course yet are able to bid and estimate big projects. That's why I was wondering if it was really necessary. They're just a rinky dink company that bids small local stuff but I was wondering if it was the same all over big, medium, and small? What I'm trying to say is will having an extensive knowledge of CAD give me a leg up at all in CM? Would it help me stand out in this competitor marketplace? Would I be able to not only hit the ground running but be able to understand and do the job better than other CMs because of the skill? Yes maybe down the line I will get an arch degree.
echoing geezertect - unless you have software savvy staff, the cost of switching over is huge in hours lost (not to mention the license fees).
Short answer: knowing CAD or BIM won't hurt you, but experience going through construction on projects is the most valuable thing. Nothing can really replace that.
Long answer: I'm not sure how software gets you a leg up in construction management - you need to be able to read the drawings and understand that information. More and more CM firms want graduates that know BIM because they get a model from the architects - you need to be able to extract information from it (quantities of materials, etc) but not necessarily build it. Troubleshooting models and understanding what errors might be in a model is helpful, but that comes from years of experience. Being facile in the software may help in reducing errors in bids (therefore being able to maintain some profitability), but experience is more likely to trump being a software expert.
Ditto on good CM work - it's about anticipating difficulties and understanding critical path (what things have to happen in order for a project to stay on schedule).
Yeah it seems more and more that I might just have to stick to the business management side of things unless I fully immerse myself in a dedicated study of design. I just wanted to bridge the gap by being well versed in the basics of design to improve my skills as a CM. Most of the curriculum for my masters program has foundational courses already in construction drawing reading to understand what it is I'm looking at. There are BIM courses to choose from too elective wise and everything else I guess you just pick up on the job from what you guys are saying? I'm spending a lot of time and energy with these CAD courses but if they aren't going to give me any leg up or anything that I wouldn't learn in my masters CM program then I don't know if I should continue. The only way I could see it helping is if I went to work for my family's company who could use someone skilled in CAD and BIM in order to like you says reduce errors in bids. I mean their business is so small and old school, no one knows CAD and even less BIM that I know of (never mentioned it) , I figured it would help to build it up the biz by updating skill set.
manoverde84,
If anything, you can learn from some Youtube videos of parts of the software pertinent to what you would need and familiarize yourself in the UI environment but BIM studies in CM programs would differ from BIM studies in architecture program even though you are working with the same software..... you would use it differently.
Generally, you use the software in CM work for what 3tk said. You would not be learning so much to design buildings but to extract information from the model to get quantity of materials, etc. (as 3tk noted). It's about using the model to get information from not about designing.
I wouldn't worry about focusing on that. If it is an elective in your CM courses, sure, take the courses on BIM. As for CAD, you will likely just get the prints from the architects/designers. You would take off from the drawings, schedules on the plans, and specifications.
If you want to learn more about designing at some point, worry about it later. Don't overwhelm yourself at this point.
Yes you're right. I'm overwhelming myself too much. The CAD programs were more than I can take because I'm just not as deign savvy as I thought. I don't think I could go any further than a basic course and even then I'm still wondering if I should continue. It's taking ten hours of my already 40+ hour workweek and then I just right into a CM program this July. Unless CAD is going to propel me into the front of the line then I'd rather just not continue. I could learn it on my own using available online materials. I know you have to know how to read the drawings not design them but for some reason in my newbie mind I have this notion that if you know how to design a drawing then you'd know not only how to read drawings but be at an advantage by seeing stuff that those that don't design can't. I thought since I lack the experience that would substitute for it. That's the kicker. I would only continue if ot brought something tangible to the table by giving me an eye for things and seeing a drawing in a much more advanced way than if I just were a CM.
Stick with the CM degree. If you want to become a CAD/revit monkey then you would want to focus on learning those programs. Sadly, most if not all entry-mid level job positions offered for ppl with architecture degree is exactly that, CAD monkey jobs.
Perhaps you realized this just from your short stint doing this CAD class, that drafting even in Revit (BIM) can become quite monotonous and boring.
You'll make more money on the CM side of the AEC industry, and will most likely enjoy your career more so as a CM than you ever would attempting to become some magnanimous architect.\
Also, it is horrible to your health to sit and troll out on a computer all day every day for decades , as Zaha demonstrated sadly.
For most users AutoCAD is literally going to be points, line and polyline tools. I don't understand why you need to use AutoCAD as a CM. BIM isn't even a program, if you were going to be using revit all you'd need is literally the viewing capabilities which you can get from a few A360 viewer that's web based. If you were coordinating or any of the sort then you need Navisworks or a program along the lines. That's literally it.
Detwan nailed it. I glamorized all aspects of design as the mystique surrounding the design field can cloud someone's judgement into thinking they're going to be design geniuses with some basic CAD courses. I do at least want to attempt to see how far I go in this course but I prolly won't go past the fundamentals. I was going to go all the way to learning arch, mechanical and electrical. From your experience there are few CMs with extensive CAD backgrounds as what they know from the trade supersedes any need to learn the basics of design? There is absolutely nothing having autocad experience can bring to the CM job?
You know if reading construction docs is the key thing then would it serve me better to just do an intro to construction drawing class? Those are pretty easy to find and are cheaper and quicker. Thoughts?
So can a pencil and paper, Benny. (intended as a kind jab)
Manoverde84, it appears that you are new to the industry. If I was going into a CM degree, I would look at the course silibus and start reading early. I would also go old school, buy a used book on construction details and hand trace the wall sections. Most of it will be an alien language, but once understood it will keep you employable for a long time. Good luck!
Oh I know what you mean dsc arch. I'm already doing that and will start reading soon before my classes start in July. Meantime, I'm still so in the dark about the advantage CAD will bring me to CM. Some say it could help or some say it won't. I just want a definitive answer with a simple explanation either yes it will give you an advantage or no it really won't you're wasting your time. If so just what advantage could it bring? Point is if an employer is looking at my resume and sees I've got autocad skills and a CM degree, would it look good to him? Not just the experience which I'd gain later but just counting for that? If it looks weird, as though "why did he go out and get that autocad cert for" and I look like a newbie, then I might as well stop now. I just want to know if it's normal for CMs to even have that skill under their belt? If not, then would having it make me look more favorable in a competitive market? Or would it just look silly?
Manoverde, it's not a black or white question, as CM is not a single job description. In the real world there is rarely a right or wrong answer the way there is in school, so get used to ambiguity.
I can't imagine a situation where putting CAD proficiency on your resume would be a bad thing. Lots of engineers and would-be architects go into CM, so having CAD skills is not unusual. If you are interested in smaller firms, having a broader skill set would be valuable. In larger firms it may be less important, as your job description may be narrower, but even then I can't imagine it being a detriment.
I am mostly interested in working for smaller firms, contractors or for the city. I know I shouldn't sell myself short but I just don't think at my age I have a shot with the big firms. I'm not really interested in the bigger firms like Skanka or AECOM if that's what ya mean.
I don't think anyone here had said it is a detriment but it is a suggestion for right now to not get too focuses on CAD. Understand the CM and then maybe 'organically' apply studies in CAD be it a little self-study & practice and maybe a few formal courses but don't lose sight on the end goal that you are trying to define.
If you are going to look at CM work, I'd suggest not worrying too much about the size of the firms. It is not like I have to be an expert in CAD to be a CM. There is opportunities that you can worry about later. You can dabble with it a little between now and say the end of the year and work with the stuff and get a little bit of general user understanding of how the program works. Worry about the more advance CAD stuff until you get some of the CM stuff under your belt and build a better understanding of the vocabulary and reading plans and so forth. Look at it more through a natural growth and evolution so don't force yourself to learn CAD or BIM too heavily if you aren't ready. You got some foundational stuff in CM courses that will be helpful for you in getting a grounding so you can better wrap your head around CAD & BIM. Don't overwhelm yourself. Patience will help you out in the long run.
Dsc Arc, you mentioned that after the necessary requirements that I would be pretty employable for a while? Is the CM field much more a lucrative investment than straight design? It seems as though it'd be much more transferable through different branches of construction, no? And I'm thinking I'm gonna continue with this short fundamentals course and leave it at that. I'll pick up anymore along the way. I need to play up my strengths and design is secondary to the business management and math I've done most of my career. I'm sure there is a construction economics field somewhere.
manoverde84,
Who do you think clients going to value. The persons that prepares a bunch of drawings or a person who is managing or otherwise responsible for the construction of the building.
What do clients want more? Drawings or buildings?
Think about where people are going to put their money towards?
That is what Dsc Arc is implying you to think when looking at where in the whole AEC industry the money is spent.
AIA, AIBD and some of the other architecture / building design associations that represents us plus the interior designer associations.... all of them combined is a fraction of the size of the NAHB.
That's a fair indication of where the cash is and where people put their money.
I just figured that it was in the same boat as design because of the cyclical nature of construction.
Are you taking about RickB? Why?
Yes, I am referring to RickyB.
He has no formal training, no experience, and has never built/designed anything larger than perhaps a deck for his mother's house. Hes a wannabe designer with a hard-on for long and elaborate gibberish opinions. Just take a look at his other posts.
Oh man, well non would you care to chime in. You seem like an honest albeit rather blunt individual. What's your opinion? Give it to me straight, man. I need the God's honest.
Honest on what, CAD vs BIM?
There will be room for both for a long time but it'll vary greatly on the scale (size) of the projects. Project documentation will creep steadily towards BIM as more and more clients see the collaboration value but do keep in mind that knowing what buttons to press on a computer does not make you qualified for construction management. The one I deal with daily on my BIM projects sell high the value of the software to the client but yet are performing so poorly due to their lack of experience. Why they put in fresh college grads in charge is beyond me.
Anyone knowledgeable in construction can use any software (CAD or BIM) and get the job done. Best to get very familiar with both and stay on top.
... and thanks for referring to me as god. It's a common association I receive but I am forced to correct you since unlike the reference, I am both real and awesome.
My dilemma is that I was accepted and am starting a CM program soon in July and am excited about it. Only thing is that I thought I could squeeze in an auto cad intro course in between now and July. It's pretty intensive but I'm holding my own. I was just wondering how important it is for a CM to have extensive knowledge in CAD? Some of the questions i asked above were basically if knowing CAD is essential for CMs. I mean not just taking the time out yourself to learn it but have a certificate degree in it and know it extensively? Some in here say that I will pick up what I need to know in my CM masters program and on the job, that I don't really need the added autocad cert course to do the job. I just wanted it because I thought knowing CAD would give my the eye to understand drawings from not only the CM perspective but the designers too.
Mano, getting a certificate is not the same thing as knowing the program "extensively." I have well over 10,000 hours on Autocad and still learn new things weekly. (At least it's not daily anymore.) A certificate just means you know the basics. Knowledge is power. Unless you are weak in another area critical for CM's, such as Excel, take the program.
Excel I'm great at. I use that for my job and I've already pretty much mastered that. I see what you mean but I was just going to stop at the basics of autocad with this cert. There are options to continue and get advanced certs and such. But you're right I would never be as proficient as a full time designer. I just want to be able to talk the language and see it from a designers pov. I just thought that would've brought something different to the table than just doing CM work and knowing all spreadsheets and numbers.
m84, just take the course and relax. being familiar with cad is generally useful in any management role within the aec industry - but its not a leg up or shortcut for anything. it has nothing to do with understanding design either. its really just a communication tool. one of many, but a fairly basic foundation for everything that gets done, and not that hard to become familiar with. its a less complex software than revit, so might as well start with it.
for a cm position, worrying about being good at cad is like worrying about being good at email. if you can send and read messages, you're all set.
I'm sure I've said this before to you, but chill none of them are being phased out, just know the basics to view and you'll be set.
Don't listen to Rick either, doesn't know what he's on about.
Thanks guys. I'm just gonna take the course. Actually what's funny is that once I downloaded the free student software I noticed many videos and tools available to learn the functions and stuff. I was basically stubbed that I just payed for a course when the instructions were right there and I could've learned at my own pace. But I guess I just wanted that paper to certify that I was proficient in the basics to any prospective employer.
manoverde84, as an architect /CM knowing how to use AutoCAD will not make it easier for you to understand drawings. AutoCAD is just a drawing tool. In fact, as a CM, you probably will not come in contact with AutoCAD at all! Revit/Navis would be a much more useful tools to learn because of BIM. A big part of the CM's job is anticipating and avoiding delays and added cost. BIM is a major tool to have in your bag of tricks.
That aside, building science theory and FIELD experience are the only things that are going to truly help you out here. Read the IBS/Codes, look at the dwgs, READ the Gen Notes, READ the specs, then march on out into the field and ask the foremen tons of questions. Live in the field! See the work in place. In time, understanding how to building will help you as a CM. It will help you budget better, schedule better, manage better. Thing is there is no fast track, only time and experience.
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