Does anyone have good, easy, and cheap examples of installing a sound absorptive surface between large exposed trusses in an existing industrial space that's changing to assembly use? I've found various fabric-wrapped panels and hanging clouds and whatnot but I just keep thinking there must be something really easy to just shove up into the space between.
I saw an event space advertised that had a cool-looking ceiling, but when I zoomed in and read the text it turns out it was just spray-foam between the purlins....that foam is not legally allowed to be exposed, is it?!
I love, and my client loves, the hard stripped-down industrial aesthetic, but I am certain the sound in the room will be horrible if I don't put something up there. It may end up being a Phase 2 for the project, since wedding season is about to start....so it might need to be something that can be added rather than done in the initial construction.
2x2 acoustical ceiling tiles. Glue to the metal deck or hang in clouds.
There are neat hexagonal tectum-like tiles-come in neat colors and are glue on-look great but expensive I think-can't remember the name. Might be cheaper than fabric wrapped panels.
FYI-the core of fabric panels = semi rigid fiberglass. The fabric is the expensive part.
I love those Baux panels, gruen, but it's not clear to me that they can be used on the ceiling. All of their imagery is of walls, and their installation instructions only talk about walls.
Tectum has ceiling applications. Not as cool as the Baux, of course, but I do love the aesthetic of the wood wool.
The good stuff costs money . The semi rigid is cheap and effective but not quite as pretty.
I've used the semi rigid-without the perf scrim- as wall & ceiling insulation in parking garages and industrial facilities. It actually looks decent-just white walls.
Fabric panels are very expensive for what you get. The perf scrim solves this issue. I'll see if I can get you a link.
Floor is concrete, and we want to keep it that way. Walls will probably be wood clad - we're going for a barn/industrial look. The footprint is 48' x 88', so it's a big open space, and the ceiling is only 20' at its peak (8' perimeter walls) so I feel like the ceiling is going to cause the main problem with acoustics.
Assembly use for people or factory assembly use? Either way do you need to incorporate lighting in the ceiling? I'm sure you have looked at all the Armstrong solutions?
Good question, Volunteer - Assembly as in people. It's an event space, like for weddings. Lighting is on the trusses. Yes, Armstrong makes a very cool curved acoustic cloud panel. But $$$, I'm afraid! Also it looks fairly corporate, and we want more rustic/industrial.
Can’t tell you how many restaurants I’ve been in that go with the “no ceiling thing” and concrete floors…staring up at all the pillows and shaking my head thinking “that’s why they invented acoustical ceilings & carpet stupid.”
Got stuck doing a lot of gymnasiums with little choice but to hire an acoustical consultant and used panels and sound absorbing CMU’s and it still didn’t cut it. Did Tectum until my first roof leak….turns to mush & a law suit.
Sound is a tricky thing requiring mass & absorption…not just pillows…seems to me if you have a 4,224SF space you need 8,448sf of pillows…4,224 for the loss of the ceiling and 4,224 for the loss of carpet…where’s the economy in that? I just don’t think the concept works at any speed.
The above concept might work directly above the diners, but no chance putting it here and there will work in a wedding venue….the sound will bounce before it ever hits a panel.
My ideal would be foam pillows with a tight burlap wrap, mounted flat between the trusses (8' oc). But I'm worried about fire rating of interior materials of course. I don't think burlap-wrapped foam is allowed. Remember that heavy metal club concert fire in, I think, Rhode Island? Nightmares.
An acoustical consultant is not in the budget, however...this may be a Phase 2, and there will be a sound *system* consultant, consulting to the client directly, not to me. I'm hoping that person and I can come to a plan together. Possibly we can be open for a couple-few events and see how the sound actually bounces around the space, then figure out a solution based on experience.
It just strikes me that this is such a common problem: getting a cool, industrial space tends to mean accepting cold drafts and lots of noise; getting a stable, quiet space means accepting corporate finishes. <sigh>
I would call the Armstrong dude to come out and give you an opinion; they should be able to tell you how much of what kind of material is needed for sound attenuation and if the dropped screens would be an option to even consider. I have seen a standard acoustical ceiling collapse from water damage and all sorts of thing came down, including dead rats.
Rock wool sound insulation over a perforated s-board.... That would be more of that industrial, plus you can hose them. Just space them out so the sound waves can bounce around them and become deadened.
Also worked on a project where the previous architect did these hammock things on the ceiling... basically picture a foam camping mattress in a stitched flat sack hanging around.
I've also heard the electronic sound deadening systems have come a long way.
Carrera, I don't think that kind of foam is allowed in assembly occupancies.
I love the banality of this conversation in comparison to all the Bjarke-bashing etc that goes on around here. You all are my people.
While you're all here, does anyone know if any specific signage is required in a stair that is *not* an egress stair? I'm doing a table of all the signage for all 22 of our egress stairs, but this one stair - very commonly used by employees only, because it's behind security, and no way the public could ever enter it - is not an egress stair.
b3ta, I did look at Acoustical Solutions this weekend. I'm pondering their hanging sock things - they would look lovely for a wedding, with the drapes and lighting we're planning it could all be very romantic, but I'm nervous about them looking weird when the space is used for non-wedding events. But still, they're on my list of options.
Friends of mine designed this restaurant, with a suspended ceiling of birch plywood with random holes cut out:
I've eaten there and would say it was not like being in a house freshly insulated with cellulose (which is quiet like being outside in a snow storm) but it definitely helped block sound reflecting off the ceiling.
I spec'd some Zintra on Zintra just today. Using it on walls and ceilings. It just gets installed with construction adhesive.
It's acoustical performance isn't great - it's just felt - but, depending what you're looking for, it can be pretty affordable and knock down reverberation/reflection.
Website is a pain. I'd just download the pdf catalog...
Polyurethane spray foam is rated for 1-hour exposure if it's covered with intumescent paint. Closed cell foam actually doesn't do that well at absorbing sound, though, as it's too dense and just reflects the sound waves. Open cell foam is better at absorbing sound but even with intumescent paint it would cause moisture issues.
For cheap and easy, I'd echo Roxul mineral fiber with some type of facer. However, as has been mentioned, it isn't necessarily pretty.
Also spray on systems don't have to be foam. K-13 is a simple spray-on system from International Cellulose Corporation ... pretty sure it is Class A rated as well. Although, probably not the best aesthetically.
SonaKrete (also by International Cellulose Corporation) is a plaster system that offers a bit more refinement. The company has other products as well, but I'm not familiar with them.
Designers in my office always want to use Baswaphon, which is a insulation board with a type of plaster finish ... can be very clean and refined. Probably a step up from SonaKrete. The issue is that we never seem to get it on a finished project (I suspect it is one of the first items to be VE'd out) suggesting a higher price tag.
Finally, another thing I'm seeing more of recently are products from FilzFelt ... wool design felt. I'm not sure how they compare price-wise to other options. Check out their Akustika 25 line of products (ranges from baffles, to clouds, to surface applied finishes).
The K13 is definitely a possibility. Everything will likely be painted white up in the ceiling, so the texture won't be so visible. And no attachments. Hmmm...I actually used something similar many years ago in an exhibit design for a recreation of the Pop Art Museum of Merchandise. Hard to tell but the white walls and ceiling are all spray-on recycled paper. We (the curator and I) think that the original MoM, from the 1960s, was probably sprayed with asbestos. We did not recreate to that level of accuracy!
LOL Carrera. If I was a newbie and this was my first post I have no doubt I'd be getting slammed with bizarre ideas and snark: "Maybe mounting a bunch of guillotines in the truss space would quiet down all those rich people getting married?"
The roxul is the same stuff I suggested. They make it w a perforated white scrim. I think I've also seen it in black for theaters. If you specify the install carefully then it can look decent.
Pro tip-hold it an inch or two away from the ceiling for double the sound deadening power. Those pesky reverberant waves can get caught on the backside of the material too.
Have you looked at Snowsound? They don't have SF pricing; they price them differently per project (kind of a red flag in my opinion) but also base the design on the specific sound qualities of the room(s). I have looked at using them a couple of times but never actually was able to move forward with the product. Their products seem to work really well from the test rooms I have been in and you can get some bright colors and unique shapes. It might be nice to hang them vertically between the trusses in different shapes and colors to get some nice accents, although that might be a little too clean and modern and not quite the rustic/industrial look you are going for...
Hi Liberty,
Check out Capz by Armstrong, we use them in all our projects. They have a nice modern clean look to them and have acoustical value as well.
Take care,
One Lost Architect
Haha liberty, that's a name I haven't heard in a long time! The Capz product looks cool, too, especially the wood version. I googled "linear wood acoustic panel" after seeing that and found these Rulon ceiling panels.
If I can get the flame rating sorted I might try to make up my own version of a linear wood/foam backed panel. That's the look I think we would both prefer for the space - the client keeps sending me examples of spaces with lots of wood in them.
Love the pool noodles. As a kid, I would be the one to contemplate jumping from the slide, grabbing a noodle, and landing in the water to just chill. Of course, then I'd quickly talk myself out of it because I'd probably end up a foot from the water with a head injury.
This may be outside of your budget but I have used a couple products with roxul backing that looked great. The first is a stretched pvc fabric with microperforations such as barrisol. The sky is the limit for this application as you can create pretty much any shape. Alternatively, you can colour match it to the colour of your ceiling to make it disappear. Another option for your rustic look could be a perforated simulated wood panel (metal) with acoustic backing - all of the major ceiling manufacturers have some sort of product of this - again, possibly out of your budget but perhaps worth looking into.
Just yesterday I was at a lunch n learn for Koroseal and they do wood veneer with acoustical perforations that can be applied to acoustical product. It's beautiful.
Look What I found That website has a good quality decorative panels for walls panels for walls any Advise please for someone can tell me about that website because i wanna do like that in my house
A common problem: decent-looking sound absorbing material between exposed industrial trusses
Does anyone have good, easy, and cheap examples of installing a sound absorptive surface between large exposed trusses in an existing industrial space that's changing to assembly use? I've found various fabric-wrapped panels and hanging clouds and whatnot but I just keep thinking there must be something really easy to just shove up into the space between.
I saw an event space advertised that had a cool-looking ceiling, but when I zoomed in and read the text it turns out it was just spray-foam between the purlins....that foam is not legally allowed to be exposed, is it?!
I love, and my client loves, the hard stripped-down industrial aesthetic, but I am certain the sound in the room will be horrible if I don't put something up there. It may end up being a Phase 2 for the project, since wedding season is about to start....so it might need to be something that can be added rather than done in the initial construction.
There are neat hexagonal tectum-like tiles-come in neat colors and are glue on-look great but expensive I think-can't remember the name. Might be cheaper than fabric wrapped panels.
FYI-the core of fabric panels = semi rigid fiberglass. The fabric is the expensive part.
I love those Baux panels, gruen, but it's not clear to me that they can be used on the ceiling. All of their imagery is of walls, and their installation instructions only talk about walls.
Tectum has ceiling applications. Not as cool as the Baux, of course, but I do love the aesthetic of the wood wool.
I've used the semi rigid-without the perf scrim- as wall & ceiling insulation in parking garages and industrial facilities. It actually looks decent-just white walls.
Fabric panels are very expensive for what you get. The perf scrim solves this issue. I'll see if I can get you a link.
This Roxul parking garage insulation seems like it might be fun to work with.
Donna i was going to ask is there a way to control sounds with the walls and floors and therefore leave the roof alone?
Floor is concrete, and we want to keep it that way. Walls will probably be wood clad - we're going for a barn/industrial look. The footprint is 48' x 88', so it's a big open space, and the ceiling is only 20' at its peak (8' perimeter walls) so I feel like the ceiling is going to cause the main problem with acoustics.
Assembly use for people or factory assembly use? Either way do you need to incorporate lighting in the ceiling? I'm sure you have looked at all the Armstrong solutions?
Good question, Volunteer - Assembly as in people. It's an event space, like for weddings. Lighting is on the trusses. Yes, Armstrong makes a very cool curved acoustic cloud panel. But $$$, I'm afraid! Also it looks fairly corporate, and we want more rustic/industrial.
? Seems like you could locally manufacture something similar. Might not be as rustic as you like, though.
Can’t tell you how many restaurants I’ve been in that go with the “no ceiling thing” and concrete floors…staring up at all the pillows and shaking my head thinking “that’s why they invented acoustical ceilings & carpet stupid.”
Got stuck doing a lot of gymnasiums with little choice but to hire an acoustical consultant and used panels and sound absorbing CMU’s and it still didn’t cut it. Did Tectum until my first roof leak….turns to mush & a law suit.
Sound is a tricky thing requiring mass & absorption…not just pillows…seems to me if you have a 4,224SF space you need 8,448sf of pillows…4,224 for the loss of the ceiling and 4,224 for the loss of carpet…where’s the economy in that? I just don’t think the concept works at any speed.
The above concept might work directly above the diners, but no chance putting it here and there will work in a wedding venue….the sound will bounce before it ever hits a panel.
My ideal would be foam pillows with a tight burlap wrap, mounted flat between the trusses (8' oc). But I'm worried about fire rating of interior materials of course. I don't think burlap-wrapped foam is allowed. Remember that heavy metal club concert fire in, I think, Rhode Island? Nightmares.
An acoustical consultant is not in the budget, however...this may be a Phase 2, and there will be a sound *system* consultant, consulting to the client directly, not to me. I'm hoping that person and I can come to a plan together. Possibly we can be open for a couple-few events and see how the sound actually bounces around the space, then figure out a solution based on experience.
It just strikes me that this is such a common problem: getting a cool, industrial space tends to mean accepting cold drafts and lots of noise; getting a stable, quiet space means accepting corporate finishes. <sigh>
I would call the Armstrong dude to come out and give you an opinion; they should be able to tell you how much of what kind of material is needed for sound attenuation and if the dropped screens would be an option to even consider. I have seen a standard acoustical ceiling collapse from water damage and all sorts of thing came down, including dead rats.
Instead of thinking about what you can do to the ceiling (trusses) why don't you increase the sound absorption of the floor?
Bulgar, they/we really want the concrete floor aesthetic.
Volunteer, can you imagine a dead rat falling on a bride during the first dance? That would be one for the reality TV shows!!
Plan B? No rats (except maybe the groom)
Rock wool sound insulation over a perforated s-board.... That would be more of that industrial, plus you can hose them. Just space them out so the sound waves can bounce around them and become deadened.
Also worked on a project where the previous architect did these hammock things on the ceiling... basically picture a foam camping mattress in a stitched flat sack hanging around.
I've also heard the electronic sound deadening systems have come a long way.
You could try this, I heard it works pretty good with concrete floors.
Carrera, I don't think that kind of foam is allowed in assembly occupancies.
I love the banality of this conversation in comparison to all the Bjarke-bashing etc that goes on around here. You all are my people.
While you're all here, does anyone know if any specific signage is required in a stair that is *not* an egress stair? I'm doing a table of all the signage for all 22 of our egress stairs, but this one stair - very commonly used by employees only, because it's behind security, and no way the public could ever enter it - is not an egress stair.
b3ta, I did look at Acoustical Solutions this weekend. I'm pondering their hanging sock things - they would look lovely for a wedding, with the drapes and lighting we're planning it could all be very romantic, but I'm nervous about them looking weird when the space is used for non-wedding events. But still, they're on my list of options.
Friends of mine designed this restaurant, with a suspended ceiling of birch plywood with random holes cut out:
I've eaten there and would say it was not like being in a house freshly insulated with cellulose (which is quiet like being outside in a snow storm) but it definitely helped block sound reflecting off the ceiling.
http://www.baresque.com.au/products/cladding/zintraonzintra
I spec'd some Zintra on Zintra just today. Using it on walls and ceilings. It just gets installed with construction adhesive.
It's acoustical performance isn't great - it's just felt - but, depending what you're looking for, it can be pretty affordable and knock down reverberation/reflection.
Website is a pain. I'd just download the pdf catalog...
Polyurethane spray foam is rated for 1-hour exposure if it's covered with intumescent paint. Closed cell foam actually doesn't do that well at absorbing sound, though, as it's too dense and just reflects the sound waves. Open cell foam is better at absorbing sound but even with intumescent paint it would cause moisture issues.
"Clouds" with mineral wool boards on top would probably work very well at absorbing reflected sound. (http://www.roxul.com/products/commercial/products/roxul+rockboard or similar). Rigid fiberglass panels would do the same thing.
Wood Guy those restaurant panels are very cool.
Steven the Zintra panels are super cool, why are all the super cool things European?!
can you can get away w/ vertically orienting whatever panels you choose? (maybe more visually open?)
and can you install the acoustic foam after C of O? a non-permanent suspended acoustic element for "specific event" basis?
here's a class A material to look at:
http://auralex.ihostsolutions.net/sound_absorption_sonofiber/sound_absorption_sonofiber.asp
studio foam pro
http://auralex.ihostsolutions.net/images-index/Auralex%202014%20Product%20Guide.pdf
or this stuff
no idea on cost
For cheap and easy, I'd echo Roxul mineral fiber with some type of facer. However, as has been mentioned, it isn't necessarily pretty.
Also spray on systems don't have to be foam. K-13 is a simple spray-on system from International Cellulose Corporation ... pretty sure it is Class A rated as well. Although, probably not the best aesthetically.
SonaKrete (also by International Cellulose Corporation) is a plaster system that offers a bit more refinement. The company has other products as well, but I'm not familiar with them.
Designers in my office always want to use Baswaphon, which is a insulation board with a type of plaster finish ... can be very clean and refined. Probably a step up from SonaKrete. The issue is that we never seem to get it on a finished project (I suspect it is one of the first items to be VE'd out) suggesting a higher price tag.
Finally, another thing I'm seeing more of recently are products from FilzFelt ... wool design felt. I'm not sure how they compare price-wise to other options. Check out their Akustika 25 line of products (ranges from baffles, to clouds, to surface applied finishes).
I saw this which made me think of weaving something through the trusses in the opposite direction, to create a grid....
BTW – Isn’t it about now that we should all start bitching about getting paid for this?
SUPER HELPFUL, EVERYONE!
oops, CADding. That FilzFelt is full of fun!
The K13 is definitely a possibility. Everything will likely be painted white up in the ceiling, so the texture won't be so visible. And no attachments. Hmmm...I actually used something similar many years ago in an exhibit design for a recreation of the Pop Art Museum of Merchandise.
Hard to tell but the white walls and ceiling are all spray-on recycled paper. We (the curator and I) think that the original MoM, from the 1960s, was probably sprayed with asbestos. We did not recreate to that level of accuracy!
LOL Carrera. If I was a newbie and this was my first post I have no doubt I'd be getting slammed with bizarre ideas and snark: "Maybe mounting a bunch of guillotines in the truss space would quiet down all those rich people getting married?"
Pro tip-hold it an inch or two away from the ceiling for double the sound deadening power. Those pesky reverberant waves can get caught on the backside of the material too.
This is great! Thank you all!
Donna,
Have you looked at Snowsound? They don't have SF pricing; they price them differently per project (kind of a red flag in my opinion) but also base the design on the specific sound qualities of the room(s). I have looked at using them a couple of times but never actually was able to move forward with the product. Their products seem to work really well from the test rooms I have been in and you can get some bright colors and unique shapes. It might be nice to hang them vertically between the trusses in different shapes and colors to get some nice accents, although that might be a little too clean and modern and not quite the rustic/industrial look you are going for...
http://www.snowsoundusa.com/
thousands of pool noodles? haha
Those are cool, Ted. I also like the pool noodles LOL! But again, I doubt they are Class A flame spread rating....maybe over a pool it's ok?
poop876 /= Donna, but Donna sometimes is poop.
Hi Liberty, Check out Capz by Armstrong, we use them in all our projects. They have a nice modern clean look to them and have acoustical value as well. Take care, One Lost Architect
Haha liberty, that's a name I haven't heard in a long time! The Capz product looks cool, too, especially the wood version. I googled "linear wood acoustic panel" after seeing that and found these Rulon ceiling panels.
If I can get the flame rating sorted I might try to make up my own version of a linear wood/foam backed panel. That's the look I think we would both prefer for the space - the client keeps sending me examples of spaces with lots of wood in them.
Armstrong Woodworks Linear and 9Wood both have comparable products to Rulon.
Love the pool noodles. As a kid, I would be the one to contemplate jumping from the slide, grabbing a noodle, and landing in the water to just chill. Of course, then I'd quickly talk myself out of it because I'd probably end up a foot from the water with a head injury.
Hi Donna,
Have you checked out Filz Felt?
https://www.filzfelt.com/
This may be outside of your budget but I have used a couple products with roxul backing that looked great. The first is a stretched pvc fabric with microperforations such as barrisol. The sky is the limit for this application as you can create pretty much any shape. Alternatively, you can colour match it to the colour of your ceiling to make it disappear. Another option for your rustic look could be a perforated simulated wood panel (metal) with acoustic backing - all of the major ceiling manufacturers have some sort of product of this - again, possibly out of your budget but perhaps worth looking into.
Just yesterday I was at a lunch n learn for Koroseal and they do wood veneer with acoustical perforations that can be applied to acoustical product. It's beautiful.
http://www.koroseal.com/acoust...
I also learned yesterday that lacewood isn't a particular pretty species of wood: it's just diseased oak.
Look What I found That website has a good quality decorative panels for walls panels for walls
any Advise please for someone can tell me about that website because i wanna do like that in my house
https://gutex.de/en/product-ra...
any of this will absorb sound like crazy: i guess you could spray it any color you like?
https://www.soundproofcow.com
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