kyll,
you have to admit that it is NOT JUST one or the other. it IS both. i'm not advocating one more than the other, i'm advocating BOTH. Together. There IS a 3rd option.
The reason why you have the kids in studio that don't ever get it is because they don't have enough of the intuition towards artistry but mostly it's because of drive and dediction. YES on a very minute level intuition(design) CAN BE taught. they are taught to notice and observe patterns that people would say fit into the category of "good" design.
Little personal story... i smoke cigarettes and there was usually a good group of students and professors from my school that did too. i met one of my professors outside smoking one day and had good conversation, never had him for studio but I had heard about him from other students. every so often i would see him out there again. one conversation turned towards my questioning of any students ability in design in such a subjective feild(after ESPECIALLY HARSH jury--went into overtime just to bitch about my design when another student's model fell apart when breathed on, craft sucked, designed an architect's nightmare, etc). Sounds cheesy but this was the professor's response.. "I can almost always spot the students that are good designers because they NEVER leave the building, NEVER. They have a sense of determination and dedication to the field so that even if their design skills are lacking, they are determined enough to LEARN what they don't know."

as yoda says there is no try only do.

many gifted and talented teachers(elementary school) "teach" their students to tap into more creative aspects of response by contiually exposing the students to logic problems, word games, puzzles, etc. that the students solve by shifting their perspective and basically force them tp tap into their imagination more readily.
i was in a group called "odessey of the mind" in elementary(or junior high don't remember) and they competed with other schools by solving those same type of problems.

why couldn't this same basic philosophy be applied to college. it's a very sweeping remark you are making....

mdler-

I understand your frustration with the education system, more so if I had done the MARCH, quite a year! However, the opprotunity to take business or real estate courses while at the university were there. I took some.

I don't think an individual should come out of college asking why did my desing program not offer this or that or, send me on my way as a complete package ready to tackle all facets of architecture. That is not realistic. People decide to go to schools based on what their (the schools) strengths. Having an understanding and or exposure to as much of architecture while in school is all a student can hope to achieve. You seemed to have done this yourself with taking different classes and internships. Life is about learning as you go and getting better at what you do throughout your life. If I was the best designer or tech guy or administrator etc etc I would ever be right out of school then where is it that one goes from there? We all know there is an obvious disconnect between academia and the reality of building, it is just the nature of the beast.

Since y'all are dissin' my dad! Yes, he is an architect and was apparently quite "cutting edge" in the 60's, 70's and 80's in DC. Of course, you have to realize how conservative DC is.

I think we all agree that there should be a balance of the practical and the creative in school. It's sad for me to see young interns come into my office and have no idea how create an elevation from a plan. Yet they arrive with wonderful egos full of fresh ideas that can't be implemented because of the nature of our work - we design buildings. Buildings that have to meet codes and not fall down and have to adhere to historic overlay district standards and landlord requirements. They invariably become unhappy and move on to other firms that might have more opportunities. And the funny thing is that they always call us at some point and say they really miss our office and the cad standards at their new office are really screwed up and they wish their new office could use our cad manual! True story. They never talk about what exciting projects they're working on or how their bosses are helping them with IDP. They miss our cad standards!

I assume they've been "broken in" by then and realize that there's not a lot of design opportunity. Maybe I'm wrong.

Mum,

How big's your office? I'm looking for an internship!

-- Alan

Right now we have about 9 people. We've had a summer intern for 5 years who just graduated and he's starting in two weeks full time. We are "passively" looking for someone with more experience for our next hire.

Why, are you a cad monkey? ;)

it is a sore subject with me that firms LOVE to hire new graduates for such low starting salaries!

I had a conversation with a friend fo mine recently who is a programmer. They charge so much more to their clients because all programmers charge that much! It seems to me that if architecture firms would stop undercutting each other with lower design fees.. it would help solve some of the problems with this profession.

I think our profession as a whole needs more confidence....people WILL still want architecture if we insist on good design AND good design fees.

very sore subject HMM! .. and architects too... dont' just stay at the same old job, when your boss does not give you a raise for 2 years ..or if they give you a $1000 raise and 500 bonus that doesn't even account for inflation. HMM!!!!
if more people do that, then maybe more firms and architects would start thinking of charging more to clients!!

even after putting my notice at my current job.. because of a better offer, they want me to stay two more months!??? are you kidding? and get paid less for two more months?
..the sad thing is, he doesn't have to offer me a rediculous amount more because there is a line of architects willing to fill my place for possibly even less!

where do u work (city) Lexi.....and yes I agree...I have voiced my concerns regarding the undercutting so many of my colleagues are doing to this profession. If there could be some understanding of how to sell yourself for the proper amount to many firms, then you might have less of us that would be as bitter about compensation as there are

I think that all recent architecture grads should refuse to work for less that $80k a year.

there are far too many architects competing for jobs, it is as simple as that. Most firms are tiny. Too many tiny firms means too much competition for jobs. That leads to shitty rates. Not to mention the freaking WHORES that undercut bids on jobs. Those people are killing fees the most. Anyone that "buys" a job in the hope the next one will have bigger fees and better results needs to rethink their marketing ideas. So many architects do that, they hurt themselves and the rest of us. It is not like architecture firms are rolling in cash and just refuse to pay college grads what they are worth. I haven't come across that. Most grads from undergradate programs are a liablity to firms untill they get practicle skills. Most undergrads don't believe they need to work in architecture firms during their summers off either.

Pulling an all-nighter as I'm reading this... Much thinking... Very stress... Somewhat inspired to push on...