Aloha everyone... there is some amazing feedback on this site, thank you to all that have contributed.
I am a landowner, working with a draftsman to put a home plan together. I have gotten about 85% of the way done and we have run into some communication and personal issues that have driven a wedge between us. We have agreed peacefully to go our separate ways, I made the final payment to him in exchange for all the files and drawings that he has completed.
My question, he has only sent me PDF files. I know these are pretty much useless, what files should I be asking for? I am going to take these files to a different draftsman to have him finish the last 15%, but I am not sure what files he will need to pick up where the last draftsman finished.
The draftsman was right not to give you digital files. If you wanted digital files, you should have had that in a contract prior to the start of the project.
Your best bet to to hire someone else to pick-up where the other person stopped. It's not fair for the original draftsmen to have someone else use their work.
Moral of the story: Don't be cheap and hire an architect form the start.
just to clarify a bit, when you hire an architect you aren't paying for CAD files, you are paying for the end product, a set of documents which tell the contractor how and what to build. The electronic files are the architect's Instrument of Service and are the property of the architect. "Instrument of Service" is a term of art essentially meaning that the cad files are tools, not the product.
That doesn't mean you can't ask nicely for them or that you can't receive them as a part of the contract. If you ask for "cad files," that should be sufficient for the drafter to understand what you mean.
My guess is that he knows already and doesn't want to give these away. (more $)
What shuellmi explained is exactly correct. Unless you have a contract specifically saying that you (client) are to receive electronic files there is no standard of practice under which they would be given to you.
To add, if you DO get electronic files, it is likely to be at an additional cost and only with you signing a letter releasing the drafter from any liability whatsoever that may result from your use of them.
Not just "electronic files," which would be the PDFs he's already got. Rather, the agreement would have to specify the CAD files or design model files used to create the drawings. Most agreements do not specify this for the reasons shuellmi noted above.
You can ask for the CAD/model files. But you'd better ask nicely and be prepared to pay extra for them or you are unlikely to get them.
I've given my cad files to one client, ever. He threatened to withold our final fee after changing architects and ending our contract. Needless to say, I made that script that put everything in the same layer and exploded every block, polyline and hatch in the drawing, purged and then sent them out.
Pretty sure null pointer has generated every CAD drawing I've ever gotten from a client.
Be sure to assign random Z-values to a number of objects, rotate half the objects .000000561 degrees clockwise, and the other half .0000000257 degrees counterclockwise.
It’s not the World Trade Center for God sake; they are production drawings for a house yet to be finished, he should give him what he needs to get done, the guy paid him, why screw him over it.
Carrera, there *is* a liability issue, whether it's a tiny job or not, and standard practice is that you don't hand over CAD files. The analogy is producing a set of hand drawings then also giving my client not only the vellum originals but also the lead pointer I used to draw them - and it's my FAVORITE lead pointer that rotates perfectly on the callus that's built up over the years on my right forefinger. ;-)
For some reason made me think of this; I had a framing subcontractor read my door designation, 3068 for example, and framed the opening 30" x 68".... Idiot!
Dec 2, 15 2:49 pm ·
·
To the OP,
if you have PDF versions of the construction documents then you have the permit drawings. If the drafter/designer/architect did it right, you have the drawings for permits. You make the required number of printed copies.
Remember, the copyright of the work of an independent contractor ( I'm not referring to construction contractor but any person who you are contracting for design or drafting service who is not an employee per labor laws.) ----- BELONGS to the designer/drafter/architect/engineer/etc. unless there is an explicitly written agreement of transferring the proprietorship rights of the drawings.
Rick are you actually suggesting that the owner make copies of drawings that he knows to be incomplete, and submit them for permitting?
Dec 2, 15 3:18 pm ·
·
No.
If he has drawings that are actually incomplete then he needs to contract someone else and start again new with a new set of construction documents to be prepared. He might as well throw away the PDF files of the previous designer. The new person would have to prepare the plans fresh as just modifying another person's building plans is copyright infringement unless there is authorized permission from the copyright owner (that previous designer/drafter).
It isn't like the new architect or designer can't just simply prepare their own set of drawings.
Receiving a set of plans does not mean a transfer of copyright ownership.
Richard, if I could reach through the internet I would slap you silly for being such a colossal idiot, but the pipe is too small.
jj123456, if you haven't already run for the hills with your tail between your legs, be advised that RickB-OR is a near universally loathed troll with zero experience in architecture and construction. Except for what he cuts 'n pastes from the internet.
So then did you read the OP's question, and understand what the thread is about? Both the OP and the first drafter agree that the drawings are only 85% complete. Yet you advised that if the drafter "did it right" then the pdfs are the permit drawings and the OP should just "make the required number of copies."
Copyright isn’t an issue, the draftsman sold him the PDF’s, just have someone do some supplemental drawings to add to the existing set and be done with it.
No, he just changed his user name so when people google him it won't show archinect posts.
Dec 2, 15 4:29 pm ·
·
Selling plans is like selling a book, Carerra. Just because I sell a book doesn't mean I sold them the copyrights. It is an issue because construction documents are like books. If the agreement is for a deliverables of 3 sets of the construction documents or whatever it is, then that's three copies. If project is terminated early, it still doesn't mean the client has any ownership rights to the design. The design is still the designer/drafter/architect/engineer's.
In order to legally transfer copyright to someone else, you must explicitly in writing transfer the copyright ownership through an intellectual property rights transfer of ownership agreement. You must have it in writing or some form of recorded medium for validity or doesn't work very well. There must be a record of it or there can be problems.
A client doesn't get copyrights just because he buys house plans on the internet. A client doesn't get copyrights even in a custom building design work, either. They get it ONLY in a written agreement.
Sometimes a person gets a LICENSE to make a specific number of plans for one or more (as agreed upon) number of projects. This license is not proprietorship rights of copyrights.
It is no different than it is in software because it is based on the same federal law. I can license either for an unlimited or limited number of copies of particular software OR I license it for a time duration like 1 year or 5 year or 10 years for example.
Selling a PDF is like a digital book. I sell you a digitally delivered book, it doesn't mean you may make copies of it or distribute copies of the PDF or otherwise unless otherwise agreed upon in written agreement.
I do agree with you that he could just have a new person do supplemental drawings but that has to be careful because derivative works of copyrighted work is what that would be and if done without permission is copyright infringement.
Intellectual property ownership rights can only be transferred by a written agreement. A declaration of something copyrighted into public domain in writing is a type of written agreement.
Transferring ownership rights of intellectual property to another requires that an agreement is written otherwise, it would not be recognized in court if there was a dispute over the matter.
There must be a record for the courts to follow.
If I sold you a 3-set packet of house plans in print or in a digital form, it doesn't mean I transfer to you the copyrights. It means you have 3 copies of the copyrighted content that is copyrighted the moment they are created in accordance with the copyright laws. If I register the copyrighted material, that's even better for me.
If I found you making additional copies, I could sue you. Not that is currently the case between us.
Carrera is right. The first preparer should either give him the CAD files with the appropriate indemnification/hold harmless language, or just say no. Playing little games with the files gains him nothing and potentially exposes him to a claim of bad faith. Trying to be mature, rational and reasonable is the best way to approach this thing. It's just a fucking houses for chrissake.
Dec 2, 15 4:54 pm ·
·
Who gives a fuck about the AIA standard contract.
PS: I read standard AIA contracts. A drafter isn't going to use AIA standard contract (as-is) unless they like to expose themselves to fines by licensing boards.
hold the drafter or is it architect to what is agreed upon in writing in your written contract. do you have anything in writing? if not, enjoy the pdfs.
also, did you hire a drafter or an architect? big difference between the two.
also, by landowner do you mean you own a piece of land you want to build a custom house on that you want to live in? Or are you a developer with a property and want to build a spec house on it?
not that it matters, whatever you two agreed upon in writing is what you'll get.
Verbal agreements are binding provided you can prove what was agreed upon.
Rickrickrickrickrickrick, your armchair degree from bullshit college doesn't make you an architect OR a lawyer, and your understanding of professional practice is laughable.
One could x-ref the pdf and snap to the points on the drawing...
Easiest thing: Pay someone else to start over with your program. You might get something better. If you don't, you have something to back your claim they're wrong.
Sneaky Pete, I don't know why you raise AIA docs in regards to Richard's discussion of copyright? He's correct: the copyright is owned by the designer from the moment the idea is recorded "in any tangible medium" and the person paying for the design purchases a one-time LICENSE to use the design for a project (typically one-time, or you can agree upon the number of times the purchaser is allowed to use it). IIRC, (and I might not, I haven't taught AIA docs in four years), the AIA docs do reference the one-time license.
I raise them because, however one feels about them, they are a good place to start learning what is ACTUALLY commonplace. Not what is learned via a google search or a forum discussion, but what has been written down with deference to case law by the PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PRACTICE. Not keyboard jockeys, not people who verbally masturbate on forums, but ACTUAL PRACTITIONERS of building design and documentation.
Even if what he says is what is in them, even a blind, deaf squirrel without a nose finds a nut every once in a while.
Did you pay him for 100% of the original contract or 85%? If you paid him 85% then all is square, it sucks you didn't get the CAD from him though, although I would think since you don't need an architect (since you're using a "drafter") then you should be able to just do some kind of x-ref overlay, or you could even find an old school architect to hand draft on top. It wont be perfect but if all the lines are there and the city knows what you're building it should pass for permit. Single family homes in rural areas usually do not have a strict permitting process. I would make sure to find a good builder that can fill in the gaps that will exist from the transition of "drafters".
Your goal should be to do whatever it takes to get the building permit, then leave it up to a decent home builder to figure it out.
The licensed architects in here may get on you for needing perfectly executed documents, but a single family home in a rural location can easily be built from simple hand sketched plans by a good builder. I've seen a multi million dollar home built with no roof plan, the builder just picked a roof slope and started building the rafters right there on site, and it was a very complex roof at that.
I'm going to get heat for this.
Dec 2, 15 6:32 pm ·
·
.
Dec 2, 15 6:33 pm ·
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Sneaky,
What is common place does not mean it is legal. I'm suggesting the LEGAL practice not crooked acts. Any asshole can be a crook. It just takes not giving a f--- about the law.
Dispute client vs architect
Aloha everyone... there is some amazing feedback on this site, thank you to all that have contributed.
I am a landowner, working with a draftsman to put a home plan together. I have gotten about 85% of the way done and we have run into some communication and personal issues that have driven a wedge between us. We have agreed peacefully to go our separate ways, I made the final payment to him in exchange for all the files and drawings that he has completed.
My question, he has only sent me PDF files. I know these are pretty much useless, what files should I be asking for? I am going to take these files to a different draftsman to have him finish the last 15%, but I am not sure what files he will need to pick up where the last draftsman finished.
Any help is greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays,
JJ
The draftsman was right not to give you digital files. If you wanted digital files, you should have had that in a contract prior to the start of the project.
Your best bet to to hire someone else to pick-up where the other person stopped. It's not fair for the original draftsmen to have someone else use their work.
Moral of the story: Don't be cheap and hire an architect form the start.
Whatever program he was using to draw them in....
Ask him for the project CAD files. He may or may not give them to you, but that's what you want.
unfortunately you may find that the last 15% is more like 25%, either way, the pdfs aren't totally useless and would be a start for whoever is next
The title of your post says architect and your post says draftsman. Which is it, and what does your contract, if any say?
no_form, good one!
just to clarify a bit, when you hire an architect you aren't paying for CAD files, you are paying for the end product, a set of documents which tell the contractor how and what to build. The electronic files are the architect's Instrument of Service and are the property of the architect. "Instrument of Service" is a term of art essentially meaning that the cad files are tools, not the product.
That doesn't mean you can't ask nicely for them or that you can't receive them as a part of the contract. If you ask for "cad files," that should be sufficient for the drafter to understand what you mean.
My guess is that he knows already and doesn't want to give these away. (more $)
Good Luck!
What shuellmi explained is exactly correct. Unless you have a contract specifically saying that you (client) are to receive electronic files there is no standard of practice under which they would be given to you.
To add, if you DO get electronic files, it is likely to be at an additional cost and only with you signing a letter releasing the drafter from any liability whatsoever that may result from your use of them.
Not just "electronic files," which would be the PDFs he's already got. Rather, the agreement would have to specify the CAD files or design model files used to create the drawings. Most agreements do not specify this for the reasons shuellmi noted above.
You can ask for the CAD/model files. But you'd better ask nicely and be prepared to pay extra for them or you are unlikely to get them.
I've given my cad files to one client, ever. He threatened to withold our final fee after changing architects and ending our contract. Needless to say, I made that script that put everything in the same layer and exploded every block, polyline and hatch in the drawing, purged and then sent them out.
Pretty sure null pointer has generated every CAD drawing I've ever gotten from a client.
Be sure to assign random Z-values to a number of objects, rotate half the objects .000000561 degrees clockwise, and the other half .0000000257 degrees counterclockwise.
You're fucking welcome.
^brilliant
if the PDFs are vector based you can just convert them to CAD files in illustrator.
It’s not the World Trade Center for God sake; they are production drawings for a house yet to be finished, he should give him what he needs to get done, the guy paid him, why screw him over it.
Oh David that is absolutely perfect advice!
Carrera, there *is* a liability issue, whether it's a tiny job or not, and standard practice is that you don't hand over CAD files. The analogy is producing a set of hand drawings then also giving my client not only the vellum originals but also the lead pointer I used to draw them - and it's my FAVORITE lead pointer that rotates perfectly on the callus that's built up over the years on my right forefinger. ;-)
Changing the scale of everything by a factor of .987654321 works pretty well too.
Liability? For a draftsman? The guy probably doesn’t own a car.
Architects need to get over themselves and the liability bogyman.
A set of plans at 3/16" scale is always amusing.
A set of plans at 3/16" scale is always amusing.
For some reason made me think of this; I had a framing subcontractor read my door designation, 3068 for example, and framed the opening 30" x 68".... Idiot!
To the OP,
if you have PDF versions of the construction documents then you have the permit drawings. If the drafter/designer/architect did it right, you have the drawings for permits. You make the required number of printed copies.
Remember, the copyright of the work of an independent contractor ( I'm not referring to construction contractor but any person who you are contracting for design or drafting service who is not an employee per labor laws.) ----- BELONGS to the designer/drafter/architect/engineer/etc. unless there is an explicitly written agreement of transferring the proprietorship rights of the drawings.
So does the draftsman need to get over himself, or do architects?
Rick are you actually suggesting that the owner make copies of drawings that he knows to be incomplete, and submit them for permitting?
No.
If he has drawings that are actually incomplete then he needs to contract someone else and start again new with a new set of construction documents to be prepared. He might as well throw away the PDF files of the previous designer. The new person would have to prepare the plans fresh as just modifying another person's building plans is copyright infringement unless there is authorized permission from the copyright owner (that previous designer/drafter).
It isn't like the new architect or designer can't just simply prepare their own set of drawings.
Receiving a set of plans does not mean a transfer of copyright ownership.
Richard, if I could reach through the internet I would slap you silly for being such a colossal idiot, but the pipe is too small.
jj123456, if you haven't already run for the hills with your tail between your legs, be advised that RickB-OR is a near universally loathed troll with zero experience in architecture and construction. Except for what he cuts 'n pastes from the internet.
So then did you read the OP's question, and understand what the thread is about? Both the OP and the first drafter agree that the drawings are only 85% complete. Yet you advised that if the drafter "did it right" then the pdfs are the permit drawings and the OP should just "make the required number of copies."
I would get those prints and have somebody re-produce them. I highly recommend Rick Balkins from Astoria!
TOUGH SHIT!
OP, HIRE A NEW DESIGN PROFESSIONAL AND START AGAIN WITH THE NEW DESIGN PROFESSIONAL !
Copyright isn’t an issue, the draftsman sold him the PDF’s, just have someone do some supplemental drawings to add to the existing set and be done with it.
Is that really Balkins?
Did his other account get banned?
No, he just changed his user name so when people google him it won't show archinect posts.
Selling plans is like selling a book, Carerra. Just because I sell a book doesn't mean I sold them the copyrights. It is an issue because construction documents are like books. If the agreement is for a deliverables of 3 sets of the construction documents or whatever it is, then that's three copies. If project is terminated early, it still doesn't mean the client has any ownership rights to the design. The design is still the designer/drafter/architect/engineer's.
In order to legally transfer copyright to someone else, you must explicitly in writing transfer the copyright ownership through an intellectual property rights transfer of ownership agreement. You must have it in writing or some form of recorded medium for validity or doesn't work very well. There must be a record of it or there can be problems.
A client doesn't get copyrights just because he buys house plans on the internet. A client doesn't get copyrights even in a custom building design work, either. They get it ONLY in a written agreement.
Sometimes a person gets a LICENSE to make a specific number of plans for one or more (as agreed upon) number of projects. This license is not proprietorship rights of copyrights.
It is no different than it is in software because it is based on the same federal law. I can license either for an unlimited or limited number of copies of particular software OR I license it for a time duration like 1 year or 5 year or 10 years for example.
Selling a PDF is like a digital book. I sell you a digitally delivered book, it doesn't mean you may make copies of it or distribute copies of the PDF or otherwise unless otherwise agreed upon in written agreement.
I do agree with you that he could just have a new person do supplemental drawings but that has to be careful because derivative works of copyrighted work is what that would be and if done without permission is copyright infringement.
wtf?
Intellectual property ownership rights can only be transferred by a written agreement. A declaration of something copyrighted into public domain in writing is a type of written agreement.
Transferring ownership rights of intellectual property to another requires that an agreement is written otherwise, it would not be recognized in court if there was a dispute over the matter.
There must be a record for the courts to follow.
If I sold you a 3-set packet of house plans in print or in a digital form, it doesn't mean I transfer to you the copyrights. It means you have 3 copies of the copyrighted content that is copyrighted the moment they are created in accordance with the copyright laws. If I register the copyrighted material, that's even better for me.
If I found you making additional copies, I could sue you. Not that is currently the case between us.
Have you even READ the standard AIA contracts?
Carrera is right. The first preparer should either give him the CAD files with the appropriate indemnification/hold harmless language, or just say no. Playing little games with the files gains him nothing and potentially exposes him to a claim of bad faith. Trying to be mature, rational and reasonable is the best way to approach this thing. It's just a fucking houses for chrissake.
Who gives a fuck about the AIA standard contract.
PS: I read standard AIA contracts. A drafter isn't going to use AIA standard contract (as-is) unless they like to expose themselves to fines by licensing boards.
null_pointer / David Cole you sadistic bastards.
hold the drafter or is it architect to what is agreed upon in writing in your written contract. do you have anything in writing? if not, enjoy the pdfs.
also, did you hire a drafter or an architect? big difference between the two.
also, by landowner do you mean you own a piece of land you want to build a custom house on that you want to live in? Or are you a developer with a property and want to build a spec house on it?
not that it matters, whatever you two agreed upon in writing is what you'll get.
Verbal agreements are binding provided you can prove what was agreed upon.
Rickrickrickrickrickrick, your armchair degree from bullshit college doesn't make you an architect OR a lawyer, and your understanding of professional practice is laughable.
One could x-ref the pdf and snap to the points on the drawing...
Easiest thing: Pay someone else to start over with your program. You might get something better. If you don't, you have something to back your claim they're wrong.
Hmm, I use AIA contracts for everything, even if it's a simple sketch.
You'd be dumb not to. They're stacked in your favor.
Sneaky Pete, I don't know why you raise AIA docs in regards to Richard's discussion of copyright? He's correct: the copyright is owned by the designer from the moment the idea is recorded "in any tangible medium" and the person paying for the design purchases a one-time LICENSE to use the design for a project (typically one-time, or you can agree upon the number of times the purchaser is allowed to use it). IIRC, (and I might not, I haven't taught AIA docs in four years), the AIA docs do reference the one-time license.
I raise them because, however one feels about them, they are a good place to start learning what is ACTUALLY commonplace. Not what is learned via a google search or a forum discussion, but what has been written down with deference to case law by the PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PRACTICE. Not keyboard jockeys, not people who verbally masturbate on forums, but ACTUAL PRACTITIONERS of building design and documentation.
Even if what he says is what is in them, even a blind, deaf squirrel without a nose finds a nut every once in a while.
Did you pay him for 100% of the original contract or 85%? If you paid him 85% then all is square, it sucks you didn't get the CAD from him though, although I would think since you don't need an architect (since you're using a "drafter") then you should be able to just do some kind of x-ref overlay, or you could even find an old school architect to hand draft on top. It wont be perfect but if all the lines are there and the city knows what you're building it should pass for permit. Single family homes in rural areas usually do not have a strict permitting process. I would make sure to find a good builder that can fill in the gaps that will exist from the transition of "drafters".
Your goal should be to do whatever it takes to get the building permit, then leave it up to a decent home builder to figure it out.
The licensed architects in here may get on you for needing perfectly executed documents, but a single family home in a rural location can easily be built from simple hand sketched plans by a good builder. I've seen a multi million dollar home built with no roof plan, the builder just picked a roof slope and started building the rafters right there on site, and it was a very complex roof at that.
I'm going to get heat for this.
.
Sneaky,
What is common place does not mean it is legal. I'm suggesting the LEGAL practice not crooked acts. Any asshole can be a crook. It just takes not giving a f--- about the law.
Sneaky,
Have you actually READ the U.S. Copyright laws?
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