Anyone have any experience or advice regarding using a laminated glass fin, frameless on one edge? I'm trying to find a manufacturer to make some custom shaped fins for a transit shelter, but have no idea where to start.
tagalong, I'm actually using 3Form on the main panels of this, the glass is for the sides. I had forgotten 3Form also does glass now - but! one of the reasons we're potentially switching to glass for the sides is because the 3Form is so freaking expensive! (and awesome, of course). How doe 3Form glass compare to 3Form Koda, pricewise?
Stupid question... wouldn't it technically be possible to essentially use almost any kind of laminated glass in this instance? I'd imagine it might be possible to buy just the brackets and find the glass elsewhere to reduce costs.
Doralco makes brackets and glass I believe. I think they are in Indiana or Ohio. There's a few recent high-profile projects up in the Northeast (MIT Media Lab) that used these people.
I think you're right, Unicorn. This is a public project, so I tend to want to work with a company - like Oldcastle or 3Form - that has a track record in these kinds of projects rather than call my local glass/mirror company, who I use for all my residential work. Plus, it has to be a spec item - I'm not supplying it, and I'll need to provide three potential suppliers for the bid set.
What is a 'fin' Donna? I've heard that term be tossed around like Charlie Sheen's hooker on a random schoolnight. (I'm being topical)
Are they vertical or horizintal? Do they have patch fittings or continuous supports? What kind of abuse resistance must they sustain? Can a car hit them? Can I kick it? Dangle off it? Is the laminate polyvinyl butyral, or cured resin? Heat strenghtened of fully tempered?
Laminated glass, low iron (I don't even know if that combination is possible - see how early I am in my research?).
+/- 72" tall x +/- 24" wide
Anchored on top, bottom, and one long side with stainless tab brackets, leading edge unanchored.
I'd do a drawing but...well I'd have to *do* one to share since the one that I showed the client is not allowed to be published yet.
It has to stand up to all the abuse a bus shelter has to face: graffiti is an issue, as are roving bands of Tea Partiers with baseball bats, and drunk drivers. Those last two you can't really do much about. You won't, by the way it's mounted, be able to dangle off it but you could punch it hard.
Has to withstand being humped by a dinosaur, of course. That's the first criteria.
, look at the rendering on this website and imagine the stainless steel side fins becoming wider, taller, anchored at more locations and made of glass.
Wow, thanks for that name aseid...only problem is I'd really, really like to *not* buy anything from DuPont for my project. Probably once I'm in the realm of laminated safety glass I can't avoid any of the horrible chemical companies, can I? <sigh>
Again, thanks aseid. I've already gone through all the engineering on the 3Form panels - we're using Varia Ecoresin throughout, UV stabilized, with custom Hi-Res graphic interlayer. The Koda wouldn't work for some reason - no custom graphic and not heat bendable to that radius, I think?
So turns out most bus shelters are manufactured units that are made in China. Who knew? You can get one for under $4k.
Here is a generic spec for glass:
A. Heat-Treated Laminated-Glass Units:
1. Kind [LHS, consisting of two lites of heat-strengthened float glass] [LR, consisting of two lites of heat-treated float glass, one of which is reflective] [LT, consisting of two lites of fully tempered float glass] [LD, consisting of two lites of float glass, one of which is ceramic-coated vision glass].
2. Outer Lite: Class [1 clear)] [2 tinted)] float glass.
a. Tint Color: ["Azurlite" by PPG Industries, Inc.] [Blue-green] [Bronze] ["EverGreen" by Pilkington Building Products North America] [Green] [Gray] ["Versalux Blue 2000" by Visteon] ["Versalux Blue" by Visteon] <Insert color>.
b. Kind [HS (heat strengthened)] [FT (fully tempered)].
c. Thickness: [3.0 mm] [5.0 mm] [6.0 mm] [As indicated] <Insert thickness designation>.
d. Self-Cleaning, Low-Maintenance Coating: Pyrolytic coating on first surface.
a. Color: [Blue] [Copper] [Gold] [Pewter] [Silver] <Insert color>.
b. Location: [Second] [Third] surface.
5. Silk-Screened Coating: Ceramic enamel on [second] [third] [fourth] surface.
a. Color and Pattern: [As selected by Architect from manufacturer's full range] [Match] [Provide] <Insert one manufacturer's color and pattern designation if matching is required; otherwise, insert color and pattern designation for each product named above>.
6. Plastic Interlayer:
a. Thickness: [0.060 inch (1.52 mm)] [0.090 inch (2.29 mm)] [, but not less than that required to comply as a Type II safety glass material].
b. Interlayer Color: [Clear] [Blue-green] [Bronze light] [Gray] <Insert color>.
c. Visible Light Transmittance of Interlayer: <Insert single percentage> percent minimum.
they have a manufacturing process for doing integrated high res imagery with koda xt (ive heard through the grapevine but not seen it), and have you been on the 3 form website? Stuff is pretty bendable... check out san francisco transit shelters with integrated PV. Plus its their flagship exterior grade product.
If your going to use varia, make sure you use varia XT and that you seal the edges per their spec.
Also be aware, 3form only gives a one year warranty for defects where as they will give a five year warranty on the Koda.
Oh and i dont work for 3form, lol, ive just been going back and forth with this on many occasions.
One more thing. You will not be able to truly protect exposed edge of laminated glass. Manufacturers may offer clear sealants, but these will rub off very quickly. Expect the exposed edges to be the first things to go as the structure ages.
aseid I think the Koda custom only cold bends and the Varia heat bends? I can't remember, but it's in my phone conversation notes - but the 3Form is being manufactured as we speak for the initial round of bus shelters. The second round will, maybe, incorporate some glass sides. I did not realize the warranty difference, but for what I want - and what has been approved - the Varia is the solution.
rusty, thank you for the spec info, I do appreciate it. I guess when one builds a public transit shelter, whether a $75,000 custom one with wifi and solar panels or a $3k Chinese product, one should imagine urine streaming down the sides of it. I just hadn't pictured that exact image in my mind yet. Vomit is a possibility, too.
donna, check with the mfrs about exterior exposure of the laminated edges - some products might not last as they are intended to be used in a conditioned/sheltered condition. There also might be edge sealants/details (as rusty hinted) that are required to prevent future de-lamination/discoloration of the interlayer. Not sure if 3form is rated for use in exterior conditions....
Excellent resources, beekay, thanks! I love that the first site says "our panels can be installed by a competent person in a few minutes!" Lord knows there are enough incompetent people out there to make such a claim necessary!
barry some 3Form products are good for exterior, some aren't. The bus shelters aseid mention - in San Francisco, with PVs and wifi, are a big presentation project for them. They're quite lovely.
I actually researched delamination in laminated glass. You know, so I could post a reply to sound all smart up in this thread about the proper kinds of edge sealants and finishes.
But then all I learned was that there's nothing you can do to really stop delamination unless you use a very specific kind (read: probably expensive) combination of laminate and silicone sealant.
Apparently, the only two companies that offer comprehensive 100% guarantees on laminated glass products are both evil.
I like the psychological play that it gives you a sense of personal privacy when it seems in reality it actually does not giver you any personal privacy.
Donna, I had to chuckle when I opened the link to the image of your bus shelters as I had a similar scheme . We eventually moved in a different direction due to multi-site adaptation issues and that it was simply too expensive, but I do like the simplicity of the bent plane.
The current scheme is also not able to be made pubic yet, and looks very different from the previous...but one of the similar selling points is a local artist competition for incorporation of the graphics into the 3Form panels.
Donna, though its not going to receive the same amount of tormenting that a bus shelter would, we very often do glass canopies with low iron laminated glass. The key in that case is an SVG interlayer rather than whatever other type might normally be used... i think SVG is a dupont product, so thats not good for you, but perhaps there are other manufacturers who have similar products... you might have already looked into this...
Id also mention that in these cases, laminated glazing in overhead locations with low iron coatings and SVG interlayers, we almost always incorporate frit patterns as well, so id imagine graphics in your case could be included rather easily. Good luck! sounds like a really cool project!
Revisiting this as I work out the glass spec today and realized I had not seen your rejected bus shelter image, tagalong, it's awesome! I really like it.
My own design has also changed from when I started this thread, but still not allowed to publicize it yet. I appreciate everyone's help on this!
Jun 9, 11 10:07 am ·
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Laminated glass fins
Anyone have any experience or advice regarding using a laminated glass fin, frameless on one edge? I'm trying to find a manufacturer to make some custom shaped fins for a transit shelter, but have no idea where to start.
oldcastle building envelope
I've been working on some transit shelters with exposed edges on all sides using 3Form's Koda XT, I know they make glass products as well.
tagalong, I'm actually using 3Form on the main panels of this, the glass is for the sides. I had forgotten 3Form also does glass now - but! one of the reasons we're potentially switching to glass for the sides is because the 3Form is so freaking expensive! (and awesome, of course). How doe 3Form glass compare to 3Form Koda, pricewise?
Thanks toaster - will check.
Stupid question... wouldn't it technically be possible to essentially use almost any kind of laminated glass in this instance? I'd imagine it might be possible to buy just the brackets and find the glass elsewhere to reduce costs.
Doralco makes brackets and glass I believe. I think they are in Indiana or Ohio. There's a few recent high-profile projects up in the Northeast (MIT Media Lab) that used these people.
I think you're right, Unicorn. This is a public project, so I tend to want to work with a company - like Oldcastle or 3Form - that has a track record in these kinds of projects rather than call my local glass/mirror company, who I use for all my residential work. Plus, it has to be a spec item - I'm not supplying it, and I'll need to provide three potential suppliers for the bid set.
What is a 'fin' Donna? I've heard that term be tossed around like Charlie Sheen's hooker on a random schoolnight. (I'm being topical)
Are they vertical or horizintal? Do they have patch fittings or continuous supports? What kind of abuse resistance must they sustain? Can a car hit them? Can I kick it? Dangle off it? Is the laminate polyvinyl butyral, or cured resin? Heat strenghtened of fully tempered?
Step up your game little boy!
Laminated glass, low iron (I don't even know if that combination is possible - see how early I am in my research?).
+/- 72" tall x +/- 24" wide
Anchored on top, bottom, and one long side with stainless tab brackets, leading edge unanchored.
I'd do a drawing but...well I'd have to *do* one to share since the one that I showed the client is not allowed to be published yet.
It has to stand up to all the abuse a bus shelter has to face: graffiti is an issue, as are roving bands of Tea Partiers with baseball bats, and drunk drivers. Those last two you can't really do much about. You won't, by the way it's mounted, be able to dangle off it but you could punch it hard.
Has to withstand being humped by a dinosaur, of course. That's the first criteria.
, look at the rendering on this website and imagine the stainless steel side fins becoming wider, taller, anchored at more locations and made of glass.
no 3form at pedestrian level, not scratch resistant. Laminated, tempered, heat soaked lites with Sentryglas interlayer.
saw image, transition to Koad XT at upper panels
Wow, thanks for that name aseid...only problem is I'd really, really like to *not* buy anything from DuPont for my project. Probably once I'm in the realm of laminated safety glass I can't avoid any of the horrible chemical companies, can I? <sigh>
Again, thanks aseid. I've already gone through all the engineering on the 3Form panels - we're using Varia Ecoresin throughout, UV stabilized, with custom Hi-Res graphic interlayer. The Koda wouldn't work for some reason - no custom graphic and not heat bendable to that radius, I think?
Oh that's really cool Dona. The fins would be reminiscent or a urinal partition, no?
Imma go through my specs and see what I can fish out....
Oh fuck off rusty (said affectionately, of course).
So turns out most bus shelters are manufactured units that are made in China. Who knew? You can get one for under $4k.
Here is a generic spec for glass:
A. Heat-Treated Laminated-Glass Units:
1. Kind [LHS, consisting of two lites of heat-strengthened float glass] [LR, consisting of two lites of heat-treated float glass, one of which is reflective] [LT, consisting of two lites of fully tempered float glass] [LD, consisting of two lites of float glass, one of which is ceramic-coated vision glass].
2. Outer Lite: Class [1 clear)] [2 tinted)] float glass.
a. Tint Color: ["Azurlite" by PPG Industries, Inc.] [Blue-green] [Bronze] ["EverGreen" by Pilkington Building Products North America] [Green] [Gray] ["Versalux Blue 2000" by Visteon] ["Versalux Blue" by Visteon] <Insert color>.
b. Kind [HS (heat strengthened)] [FT (fully tempered)].
c. Thickness: [3.0 mm] [5.0 mm] [6.0 mm] [As indicated] <Insert thickness designation>.
d. Self-Cleaning, Low-Maintenance Coating: Pyrolytic coating on first surface.
3. Inner Lite: Class 1 (clear) float glass.
a. Kind [HS (heat strengthened)] [FT (fully tempered)].
b. Thickness: [3.0 mm] [5.0 mm] [6.0 mm] [As indicated] <Insert thickness designation>.
4. Reflective Coating: [Pyrolytic] [Sputtered].
a. Color: [Blue] [Copper] [Gold] [Pewter] [Silver] <Insert color>.
b. Location: [Second] [Third] surface.
5. Silk-Screened Coating: Ceramic enamel on [second] [third] [fourth] surface.
a. Color and Pattern: [As selected by Architect from manufacturer's full range] [Match] [Provide] <Insert one manufacturer's color and pattern designation if matching is required; otherwise, insert color and pattern designation for each product named above>.
6. Plastic Interlayer:
a. Thickness: [0.060 inch (1.52 mm)] [0.090 inch (2.29 mm)] [, but not less than that required to comply as a Type II safety glass material].
b. Interlayer Color: [Clear] [Blue-green] [Bronze light] [Gray] <Insert color>.
c. Visible Light Transmittance of Interlayer: <Insert single percentage> percent minimum.
No likey Dupont? Here's a list of laminate makers:
PVB INTERLAYERS
DuPont Glass Laminating Products
E. I. duPont de Nemours and Company
Wilmington, DE
(800) 533-1313; (302) 892-8845
http://www.dupont.com/safetyglass
Glasslam NGI, Inc.
Pompano Beach, FL
(954) 975-3233
http://www.glasslam.com
Solutia, Inc.
Saint Louis, MO
(800) 248-6844; (314) 674-1000
http://www.saflex.com
RESIN INTERLAYERS
Glasslam NGI, Inc.
Pompano Beach, FL
(954) 975-3233
http://www.glasslam.com
UCB Group
Smyrna, GA
(888) 269-3901
http://www.ucb-group.com
they have a manufacturing process for doing integrated high res imagery with koda xt (ive heard through the grapevine but not seen it), and have you been on the 3 form website? Stuff is pretty bendable... check out san francisco transit shelters with integrated PV. Plus its their flagship exterior grade product.
If your going to use varia, make sure you use varia XT and that you seal the edges per their spec.
Also be aware, 3form only gives a one year warranty for defects where as they will give a five year warranty on the Koda.
Oh and i dont work for 3form, lol, ive just been going back and forth with this on many occasions.
One more thing. You will not be able to truly protect exposed edge of laminated glass. Manufacturers may offer clear sealants, but these will rub off very quickly. Expect the exposed edges to be the first things to go as the structure ages.
there's always this:
:)
aseid I think the Koda custom only cold bends and the Varia heat bends? I can't remember, but it's in my phone conversation notes - but the 3Form is being manufactured as we speak for the initial round of bus shelters. The second round will, maybe, incorporate some glass sides. I did not realize the warranty difference, but for what I want - and what has been approved - the Varia is the solution.
rusty, thank you for the spec info, I do appreciate it. I guess when one builds a public transit shelter, whether a $75,000 custom one with wifi and solar panels or a $3k Chinese product, one should imagine urine streaming down the sides of it. I just hadn't pictured that exact image in my mind yet. Vomit is a possibility, too.
donna, check with the mfrs about exterior exposure of the laminated edges - some products might not last as they are intended to be used in a conditioned/sheltered condition. There also might be edge sealants/details (as rusty hinted) that are required to prevent future de-lamination/discoloration of the interlayer. Not sure if 3form is rated for use in exterior conditions....
I don't think frameless is a problem. You'll just need to do custom glass panels, which won't be cheap.
http://www.contemporarytouches.com/shop/
http://www.gccintw.com.tw/node/157
http://www.metroglasstech.co.nz/products/frameless-glass/canopies.aspx
Excellent resources, beekay, thanks! I love that the first site says "our panels can be installed by a competent person in a few minutes!" Lord knows there are enough incompetent people out there to make such a claim necessary!
barry some 3Form products are good for exterior, some aren't. The bus shelters aseid mention - in San Francisco, with PVs and wifi, are a big presentation project for them. They're quite lovely.
I actually researched delamination in laminated glass. You know, so I could post a reply to sound all smart up in this thread about the proper kinds of edge sealants and finishes.
But then all I learned was that there's nothing you can do to really stop delamination unless you use a very specific kind (read: probably expensive) combination of laminate and silicone sealant.
Apparently, the only two companies that offer comprehensive 100% guarantees on laminated glass products are both evil.
Also, I'm really digging that urinal partition.
I like the psychological play that it gives you a sense of personal privacy when it seems in reality it actually does not giver you any personal privacy.
Donna, I had to chuckle when I opened the link to the image of your bus shelters as I had a similar scheme . We eventually moved in a different direction due to multi-site adaptation issues and that it was simply too expensive, but I do like the simplicity of the bent plane.
The current scheme is also not able to be made pubic yet, and looks very different from the previous...but one of the similar selling points is a local artist competition for incorporation of the graphics into the 3Form panels.
Donna, though its not going to receive the same amount of tormenting that a bus shelter would, we very often do glass canopies with low iron laminated glass. The key in that case is an SVG interlayer rather than whatever other type might normally be used... i think SVG is a dupont product, so thats not good for you, but perhaps there are other manufacturers who have similar products... you might have already looked into this...
Id also mention that in these cases, laminated glazing in overhead locations with low iron coatings and SVG interlayers, we almost always incorporate frit patterns as well, so id imagine graphics in your case could be included rather easily. Good luck! sounds like a really cool project!
Revisiting this as I work out the glass spec today and realized I had not seen your rejected bus shelter image, tagalong, it's awesome! I really like it.
My own design has also changed from when I started this thread, but still not allowed to publicize it yet. I appreciate everyone's help on this!
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