hi portmanteau,

you seem to have a good sense of what you seek from pursuing an MLA. a lack of debt is important, but it all depends on where you want to go. If you want to teach, Upenn (and the GSD) opens some doors. if you want to practice in NYC, the CUNY and Penn both open doors. If you want to practice in Boston, the RISD will help. if you want to explore the limits of design and really hone your design skills, the Upenn, RISD, and CUNY should all give you what you seek. If you want theory, then Upenn is the place.

your best way to figure out which program is the best fit is to visit the schools and talk to both faculty and students.

good luck and best wishes!

oh, you won't be wasting your time in any of those programs.

Can I ask too? And Portmanteau, to apologize for butting in, I have data on the MLA-to-professor path at the end.

I'm in at:

LSU (expecting generous aid when the letter comes)
Virginia Tech
Ohio State (with generous financial aid)

Waitlist:
UPenn

LSU has a top program, esp. sustainability. They said we'll spend the August session on an oil rig, reading the oil-soaked landscapes of the Gulf. New Orleans close, excellent student work, great faculty.

OSU has a monumental new building and sharp young faculty (Amidon, Cowles, Lara). Seems on the way up, though most people on this board talk about Midwestern state schools like their trailer-park cousins. I grew up in a trailer park. Good network for my region; I know some MCRP students there.

PENN, at the open house James Corner will look into my heart and realize his mistake. Then: stellar program and six-figure poverty. My class insecurities make me want to claw my way into an Ivy, which is a bad reason.

Virginia Tech's grad program is in the DC area, where I got beat up on the subway in 2007.

So do I push for Penn? Accept at LSU? Or is OSU, if it offers the best aid, the best choice because in the end firms don't care about the name?


*** ABOUT THE MLA-TO-PROFESSOR PATH: ***

For all accredited programs, I catalogued where their full/assistant/associate profs got their MLAs. I wanted to see whose MLAs had teaching jobs.

Only sites on ASLA's "Schools" page were counted. Non-accredited & candidate schools are out (e.g., Wash U in St Louis, with 1 GSD and 1 LSU). I also omitted lecturers/critics/adjuncts, as well a few schools (Ball State, Kentucky) with no faculty degree info. A couple (UNLV, FAMU) got their web sites from the floor of a gas station bathroom and were omitted.

Mistakes probable, corrections welcome.

GSD: at least 90 nationwide +7 at GSD for 97
Penn: 24 nationwide +3 at Penn for 27
Berkeley: 20 nationwide +3 at Berk for 23
LSU: 15 nationwide +2 at LSU for 17
UVA: 13 nationwide +6 at UVA for 18
UIUC: 13 nationwide +1 at UIUC for 14

Portmanteau, your other schools:
RISD 3 nationwide +1 at RISD for 4
CCNY 0 nationwide +1 at CCNY for 1

Other schools are in the 0-9 range. Iowa State is 4+4, which seemed low for their excellent program; Ohio State 9+1, Oregon 8+1, UWash 3+1. If firms don't care about the name, schools do.

Also important: some of these profs have a stack of degrees, from PhDs in soil science to MCRPs. Lots of MArch people in the MLA faculty, too. Nonetheless, Harvard is winning.

***

Portmanteau, if you want to have a job in the academic market, go to LSU or Penn. Even then it looks brutal, not Philosophy brutal, but still. Remember that academic pay is low and often depends on state legislatures' whims. It's a fairly hard road to a middle-class salary. I say this as an ex-academic, most of whose friends are academics, and whose ex is now tenure-track at Carnegie Mellon. The best advice I ever got about academia, as a young humanities student, came from my closest mentor: "Don't."

Your other option is to do CCNY or RISD, practice, then if you must, go back for the PhD at UIUC or GSD in LA or elsewhere in a related field. The MLA profs I have asked about this have suggested as much. No matter what, academia's a weird market, and in LA there are few jobs and fewer programs. At least people outside academia will be hiring (we hope and pray).

If someone (Barry?) would like to add more insight on that path, I'd love to hear it. Also, please tell me where to go to school!

As somebody in the midst of the tenure-track hunt, it seems that just having an MLA from a 'professor track' school isn't enough to get noticed. Having dual degrees help, along with having a very specific research agenda/pedagogy, several years of teaching experience (not just studio), publications, work pedigree, connections/network, being licensed, and being at the right place at the right time. (Winning awards/competitions help too.)

Back in 2009, I did a similar survey of PhD's in LA. The summary is that many universities in the center of the country, i.e. the Great Lakes/Great Plains/Basin & Range schools are more insistent on PhDs for their hires than schools on the coasts. But that said, certain scholarly specializations (e.g. history/theory, geo-spatial, ecology, & soils) are more likely to require a PhD then tenure-track gigs on the design side of academia.

Even if you wish to teach, plan on practicing long enough to get registered. Otherwise you're fated to be an adjunct for a long, long time. If you're lucky, you'll find a gig at a practice that encourages teaching (ie OLIN, Field Ops...) where you can team-teach a few semesters with one of the principals to get your foot in the door. Another strategy is to head away from the Northeast or Pacific coast to where there are fewer MLAs. Check out the faculty searches on CELA - SD state, Ball State, MSU & similar schools most likely are needing adjuncts too.

Have lots of debt will cramp your options. So get the best education for the least $$$. Then through perseverance and hard work, you can land a teaching gig if that's what you really want.

I can't tell you where to go - that has to be a personal revelation. (I'm a Buckeye and Quaker, so partial to the KSA and Penn). Good luck!

@ Port: I thought UPENN offered a substantial amount of financial aid? I could be wrong, maybe it is only for undergraduates.

penn LARP offers $$ based on a bunch of factors. top folks get full rides, others get significant % of tuition to just a few thousand/year...

I've read a bunch of last year's decision dilemmas as well as this thread and its been somewhat helpful but I fee l like I'm trying to compare apples to oranges in my case and was hoping for some outside opinion.

I'm a MLA I candidate with a liberal arts BA from a good but small school with, one of those crazy alumnae networks, in Architecture and Urbanism with some design experience. I'm intending to add another degree, MUP with my MLA after my first year as well to make myself more marketable and to be able to tackle all my interests. I want to make sure I choose a program that pushes me in my development as a designer as well as getting a solid education in ecology in an urban context. The two programs I visited this fall didn't accept me so I'm attempting to visit the programs I've been admitted to in order to decide.

So with those considerations, and my novella, I'll get to the heart of my issue. I've been accepted at Cornell (with little to no aid) and the University of Washington (with stellar aid). As well, I've been wait-listed at Penn and would really like to go there but the cost is a concern. I'm still waiting on U of Oregon, but Washington was higher on my list.

If I choose UW will I be limited to working mostly in the northwest?

I know a large portion of what I get out of my program is what I put in but what difference would an Ivy make over a great public university?

If I want to teach at some point, would any of them provide a better opportunity to do it later on?

What about the value of an well connected alumni base?

Can anybody weigh in on this?

Thanks in advance!

LArchiRower:

I can't offer you much insight, but I wanted to share with you my situation, as it is very similar to your own.

I've been accepted to the following MLA 1 programs:

U of Washington
U of Oregon
Cornell

and wait-listed:

Penn

Washington is high on my list as well, but I've yet to visit. If you don't mind me asking, which programs have you visited? Do you know if UW, UO, and Cornell have open houses for admitted students?

as a faculty member and former practitioner, UW and UofO are both highly respected -with- wide roaming graduates in lots of places doing good work. In most major cities, either school should get you in the door at most (non-snobbish) firms. Landing a job will come down to your portfolio and recommendations. A great thesis project also helps. Where the Ivy pedigree helps is with very selective starchitects and possibly getting into teaching - but - these doors can be opened if your portfolio is strong enough and you racked up enough honors/win a few competitions/get published/have great recommendations.

I've yet to encounter a school without a strong alumni base - some are just clustered more than others. The alumni network does help make connections f you move around to a new city - but it isn't the only factor in landing a gig. For example in the Twin Cities, there are two firms run by GSD grads, and one arch/planning firm run by a penn grad (I didn't worked for any of them), most firms are headed by folks educated locally in the upper-midwest. So will a degree from the GSD help here? perhaps not as there can be reverse snobbism in certain places against Ivy grads, unless you grew up in that place and came back. There may be an advantage in some foreign countries where the only schools the clients know are harvard or yale.

again, good luck and congrats on getting into some great schools!

@dotthei- I just got back from a trip to Seattle, I was there for the UW symposium and got a little taste of what the program is like. I missed the opportunity to talk with large groups of students but I think I've gotten a good idea of the program with the visit and conversing with Professors/Current students via e-mail.  I liked the natural light in the facilities, there are some unique opportunities within the school, and there are the pretty typical wood shop/metal shop facilities/digital fabrication lab at the CBE. The other program I've visited is Penn, for their open house, and it seems like a very different animal. If you have more specific questions send me a message and I'll gladly respond.

@barry lehrman- Thank you so much for the feedback from a non-student perspective, it's something that's been lacking for me recently.

I have a similar question to post. I live in Southern California and don't really have the option of leaving the area for a a variety of reasons. I applied to both school down here and have been accepted to USC with the standard merit scholarship as well as Cal Poly Pomona. I haven't heard much about the USC program, but I have heard excellent things about the other programs in the school of architecture. Any insight? Would prefer to go to USC if it is a comparable program.

Portmanteau, FW:

Where did you each decide to go and how has it worked out? Any more insight into the decision making process? I am debating similar options and worrying similar worries.

Thanks.

@_maf,

Which schools are you choosing between, and what do you feel are your biggest priorities in picking an MLA program?

My situation is similar to those above. I've been accepted into Harvard GSD, RISD, U Washington, and CCNY. I await news from UVa, Penn, and Cornell.

Primary interests are sustainability, urban infill/brownfield restoration, urban ecology and agriculture, eco-technologies, and cutting edge design to boot. I also want to maintain a strong connection to horticulture and plant materials. Still, I am coming to this from a different career, and so want plenty of varied experiences and flexibility of focus within the program. And, I might want to practice internationally, eventually (I have family in Spain).

I've been in NYC the past six years so CCNY would clearly be the most practical choice. But maybe practicality isn't the best option! I do fear the massive student loan debt from an Ivy, especially in this economy, but I also know from working in NY that those kind of connections really help open doors.

I do plan to visit as many schools as I can, but I wondered if those pondering the same questions last year could update with what they decided and learned. And any other advice wold be terrific!

Thanks!

@_maf,

I actually know very little about CCNY's academics, so I won't be much help in your costs debate. Putting that aside, it actually sounds like Penn and UVa would be perfect for you in every aspect. I've been reading more and more into the nitty gritty of Penn, UVa, and the GSD, and Penn and UVa seem to be much more grounded schools in terms of providing a solid grasp of horticulture, plant materials, construction docs - the practical side of LA. Not to say that the GSD doesn't provide this to some extent, but the GSD seems to be much more concerned with intensive research (almost Joycean in detail). Though by no means a full representation of each respective school's student work, check out the ASLA student awards from 2011 and 2010. I got the sense that the projects from Penn and UVa were much more present-day realistic than the GSD's (slightly speculative/5-10 year realistic).

Are you financially independent? And NYC is still a damn costly city to live in, so unless you'll be living at your parent's home or you already own an apt in NYC, going to a school in virtually any other city would be cheaper, right? Or do you mean practicality in a different sense?

@byen01,

Thanks, very interesting. I was a little perplexed by the lack of stunning student work on GSD's website, especially for LA. I thought it perhaps a matter of inadequate representation though. What you say about Penn and UVa sounds great; I did find UVa really exciting when first doing my research but I haven't learned so much about Penn thus far.

The practicality I mean is in terms of leaving my home (it would be uprooting my life drastically), and tuition costs. I will have to seek out financial aid and secure loans for living expenses at any school I attend -- because I'll be leaving my job -- but the cost of tuition at GSD seems to me far greater than the cost of living I'll bear in NYC.

Are you considering any of these programs?

@_maf,

Would you also get in-state tuition at CCNY then? And did the GSD offer you any aid? I'd think that Penn and UVa would be as generous with financial as GSD (which is to say, not that generous haha). It's a tough call - even if the out of state schools offered you, say, 17k a year, and we call NYC and Boston's cost of living on par, you'd still be out 45k after your three years. Hope you've been saving those pennies? And uprooting drastically sounds, well, drastic. I'd think long and hard about this if moving would be personally very difficult.

Got into the GSD, waiting on Penn and UVa (I'm hoping that I both get into and get rejected from those two schools - I know I'd have a ridiculously hard time choosing between any of those three)

@byen01,

Yes I am thinking about it long and hard! :) And yes CCNY would mean in-state tuition....

Next week we should hear from Penn and UVa. Let's see what new revelations that will bring. Thanks for your thoughts so far.

M.

One advantage at UVA is if you defer and work 1 yr in the state you can be eligible for in-state or if your spouse works 1 yr it usually works too.

I've known a few CCNY grads, and their all very solid.  Being in NYC they've had a lot of exposure to many of the leading designers.  There was a recent article in LAM (landscape architecture magazine) about the program you should check out, you might find it on ASLA's website.

Having been there recently I will say it is a well balanced school, where students are pushed to follow their research agendas (with generous support from faculty - I myself took a year off after my first year to establish residency and the faculty went out of their way to help me pursue my own research during that time), and while strong in theory and history it still maintains a thorough expectation that you learn the allied sciences and technologies (horticulture, hydrology, ecology, construction detailing, etc).  One of its strongest points is a faculty that works together well both within the program as well as with architecture, planning and history faculties that share the building and often cross teach.

@FW:  isn't one of the reasons for the teaching slant more to do with the state of those programs (and the profession) in the past?  With the increase in numbers of programs and a more geographical distribution of critical practice firms I would expect this to change.  Therefore it may be best to look at the younger lecturer/adjuncts as they are more likely to indicate who is recently graduating folks into teaching.

Having sat through 4 faculty hiring processes on the hiring end, I will say that the connections made through the candidate's experience at their schools can help their candidacy; but more importantly it is their work/research quality and how it relates to the current faculty's work that is what sets good candidates from the pack.  As Barry mentioned teaching seminars that are "current" and rigorous while contributing to the overall discourse in the school is important (everyone and their cousin wants to teach studio, but let's face it, that's easy).  The best candidates won important competitions, had a thorough understanding of the history and theory discourse in the profession, understood the use and implications of emerging technologies, worked for critical practices that are pushing the profession's boundaries and had demonstrated their research capabilities through fellowships like the American Academy or a PhD. 

I was warned by several professors that more and more schools will be expecting PhDs from faculty candidates (one because more programs exist -europe and asian universities generally offer them like they do other disciplines where MLAs are more for run of the mill practitioners, and two to raise the stature of design schools in the face of other departments; too often other schools within an university as well as the administration looks down upon a school full of Masters holders).  The message was unless you really think you're special and can prove it, go get a PhD.

As for firms, it depends on past performance as well as your own portfolio/experience.  Firms like to hire from programs they've had good experiences from in the past whether it's their alma mater or not; works the other way with bad experiences.

I also can't say enough about the personality of the program - you want to find the best fit there (given the choice between comparable "caliber" programs) as they are quite different. 

@3tk,

Does UVa even allow one to defer? Also, if anyone does decide to establish residency, make sure to read the fine print. A pro-tip I learned while visiting UTSOA for est. residency in Texas is that you can just buy land/start a business in the state to do so - and you can find some cheeeeap land in Texas (granted, you'd have to pay taxes, but that's pennies compared to what you'd save in tuition).

Also, thanks for shedding much light on what schools look for when hiring.

They used to and I would be surprised if they don't now (while I was there there were always a few that deferred).  The policy of UVA was that you had to be established (1+yrs of VA state income taxes paid) before you enrolled  (the only way out of this once you start is to "drop-out" and get reinstated).  Buying property in the state didn't get you in-state status (a few students tried, and failed to establish residency that way - luckily it was during the real-estate boom so the profit at graduation made up the difference).  The university in-state committee was a pain to deal with, but the school helped you out (some of the staff knew the staff elsewhere on campus and helped smooth the process).  The other alternative is to be married to a state resident (a no-cause divorce is about $1k~2k, so if you can find someone to play house with... we used to joke about setting up something at the school for it).

I'll add that the school encourages you to TA even offering a seminar on teaching where you get your own class of freshmen (known there as "first years") to teach under the guidance of a faculty member.  It's basically a lecture class and you get your own section to teach once a week with weekly TA meetings.  The younger faculty always rave about how good the senior faculty is about mentoring them on teaching, so the culture of instruction is pretty awesome - a lot of graduates stick around and help teach undergraduate studios and courses to help establish a teaching resume.  Couple that with the faculty's concentration on first-professional degree students (unlike some similar high-caliber programs they don't have much of a 2nd professional degree or PhD in the design disciplines, yet anyway), and basically you get strong mentoring in any aspect you'd like - something that's important to look for: strong faculty access.

This isn't the place to get into the PhD versus MLA as terminal degree for teaching debate, but worth touching on what is the minimum for teaching if you are interested in that following grad school. As somebody who went through 4 phone interviews and 2 in-person interviews last year, and just had the pleasure of inviting several folks to campus for interviews for a new post at Cal Poly - there are two clear signifiers that make somebody tenure-track ready - all are required (otherwise you'll be just adjunct/researcher material).

1st) Teaching experience (not just TAing), but actually leading a course or two (a design studio instructor are a dime a dozen as 3tk said - so try to get experience teaching a seminar or lecture). A plus is curriculum development experience creating a course from scratch.

2nd) A clearly defined research/creative agenda with a track-record of publications/ competition wins, not just practice at a firm or even running a practice. The agenda must be shown to be significant to the discipline and relevant to teaching. Every school has a different take on what constitutes scholarship or creative activities (i.e. it's all but impossible to get tenure at Berkeley or the GSD).

Also important is a strong portfolio, great letters of recommendation from interesting folks, and the ability to write a compelling cover-letter/statement on why you want to teach.

In contrast to UVA, UPenn has a handful of TAships each year, most with minimal responsibilities beyond grading assignments. That didn't keep several of my classmates from successfully landing tenure-track gigs (and a spot at the GSD) - so TAing isn't essential (I didn't when I was in grad school).

Oh, a license isn't essential, but helps (unless you're into HTC).

Another tip for choosing the right school is that there seems to be an emerging split between schools that focus on GIS/regional design and site-scale design, there are also schools that are significantly stronger in landscape ecology, or restoration, or hydrology. For landscape sustainability, look for faculty that can teach quantification of performance metrics, not just construction details/rating system checklists.

Good luck!

Does any one have any detail about USC landscape architecture program and has any one been notified of their decisions regarding the MLA program ?

I've sat on one final review for USC, so I can't offer much insight. The work for Alex Robinson's studio was interesting and well done. One of the projects earned a research Award ($10k) from the Arid Lands Competition. Alex is doing interesting work on large-scale digital fabrication techniques on Owens Lake thanks to funding from the Annenberg Foundation

USC is hiring a new landscape department chair (rumor has it that Anu Mathur is the finalist!), so it's a wait and see as to where the program will go. There had been quite a bit of leadership churn over the past decade, so hopefully they will gain some stability and long-term vision with the new hire.

@Barry,

Whoa, Mathur might leave Penn then? And I'm curious to find out what'll happen to Corner, seeing as Penn is looking for a new Chair. Still stay on as a professor?

I'm guessing Jim won't give up teaching at Penn as he lives in Philly, but I'm (mostly) out of the loop these days!

Just talked to USC MLA admissions. They started to send out decisions today, expect an email over the next couple days. --I'm in !

@ Barry - Thanks for the insights on the USC program, there is so little info out there... very helpful.

When did you recieve the USC mail  I am assuming I got rejected since I haven't received any mail

@tomahawks619 - I received an email today Mar. 13 in the afternoon but they said they were sending out decisions throughout this week. No reason to assume they send out all their admissions on the same day so look out for that email in the next couple days. Best of luck! 

Accepted at - GSD, Cornell, UTAustin

Rejected at - PennDesign (wish I had gotten in here), UVa

Pending - UCBerkeley (Assuming I have either been rejected or waitlisted)

Shall be going to GSD this Fall!  

Now deciding between GSD and Penn. I may have to interrogate Mathur/convince her to stay at Penn.

good luck and congrats everybody!

Hi again.

I visited CCNY yesterday: as everyone keeps saying the program seems "solid". The building is new-ish and striking, although smaller than you would expect once you're inside. The MLA first-year studios seemed a bit cramped, but they open up for 2nd year (this studio was shared with M-Arch students). The wood shop is typical, and they have laser-cutting for models. No metal shop. I sat in on a 3rd year pin-up and it was great that they had established landscape architects, architects, and head of the school to give feedback. Though I found it a bit odd that fellow students weren't there – there were only one or two. The director of the LA program agreed that they don't have much information out in the world about the program and need a bigger presence (but would need more staff to do so). It seems to me like it would be a decent education for little money, but that you also get what you pay for – I think they struggle with up to date facilities and resources. Also a student told me that in-depth ecology and horticulture you have to seek out on your own.

So I don't know... I am seriously considering either Harvard or Penn. The financial packages they offered me are similar, although GSD would be marginally cheaper. I feel like Penn might be better for my interests but I'm not sure. How are the changes coming with Corner/Mathur going to change the place? Is there going to be turmoil, and if so, when and what kind? I loved that Penn sent their full prospectus with the letter: they outlined the history of the school, the specifics of the mission, the layout of the program, and specifics for each studio/workshop/and elective. Fantastic. I wish GSD would have done the same.

@byen01 -- What are you considering between these two schools? Are you going to the open houses?

@_maf,

Yes, going to both Penn and GSD's open houses, and still waiting to hear back from Toronto (1 more week!). I think one reason GSD didn't bother sending us course descriptions is because it's all on their website; I actually hate that one can't find current course syllibi on Penn's website. Though Corner's book was a hilarious touch, I will admit. Also got a call from Werthmann from the GSD and we had a good chat about the future of the program.

It's honestly down to the smallest of details between these programs. My interests are at the nexus of disaster planning and mitigation along coastal regions and green infrastructure on a systems-wide scale, and both schools really cater to that (though GSD has a slight edge for providing access to both MIT, Fletcher, and the JFK school). I'm also taking class size for both these schools into consideration (GSD had 37 MLA 1s, which I find a bit ridiculous). Other things that come to mind is a possible short list for the new chair at Penn, how long Waldheim will be chair, and specific profs' research interests. It's a really tough one. Also, GSD offered me way more money, so I'm going ot have to negotiate with Penn on the monies front.

As I said before, I feel like Penn does a better job at teaching students about horticulture and plant materials, and PA is a great location for brownfield research and work (Pennsylvania just hosted last year's brownfields conference)

Attending either Open Houses?

@byen01--

Yes, I am going to both open houses – we must meet!

I think Penn's prospectus really helped convey the spirit behind the program, which for me amounted to more than a listing of the curriculum (which is what I found on GSD's website– unless I missed something?).

Was your undergrad degree in LA? I ask because you seem to have a very clear focus – that's wonderful. I have distinct interests but also need flexibility and variety of expertise in the program... since I have much to learn!

37 MLA 1s does sound like a lot. Do you know how many Penn has? I have the suspicion that Penn is a little more selective than GSD, what do you think?

Also, what did Werthmann say about the future of the program?

Thanks!

Nope, undergrad was B.A. in Arch Studies, but I've been thinking about grad school for a while now, so all these years of mulling have helped haha. Went from looking at M.Arch to MUP to MLA.

I called Penn a few hours ago and the admin assist. said "24 this year I think". Or was it 27? mid-20s, let's say. Impossible to say which school is more selective; could be that the GSD didn't anticipate that many admitted students to accept their offer. Past years for the GSD have also been in the mid-20s.

Oh, general good things, mainly how they relate to my interests.

Find me on the GSD '12 group and shoot me a message prior to the open house, and I'll keep an eye out for you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/262823457136785

Thanks – I don't have facebook but I'm sure we'll meet among the 37 :)

Just heard back from Pomona, so happy to added to the yes pile!

Accepted @

RISD  - No $ package yet. Would relocate to East Coast for it. I have to say, I can not stop thinking about how contemporary their designs are, love the idea of a family-style, small program, excited about Colgate and Mikyoung. I have a sweet tooth for design/art focused landscapes and design school folk. 

CCNY - Been hearing good things, seems solid (thanks for post _maf). If I lived in NY right now I might be into it but does not seem worth relocating from LA.

RUTGERS  - I pretty much know nothing about the program. COnsidering that the Urban Planning program is so good, I was interested in the potential cross over. Again, if I were to relocate to the East Coast, it would probably only be for RISD

USC  - $7000scholarship, which is just a couple bucks off the tip jar. At $35000 tuition, is the difference between Pomona and USC worth the price tag??  I am lured by USC's amazing facilities/campus and this notion that they are working to make into a very renowned program (Harvard of the West kind of thing?). I have a really good life in LA and think it's an exciting place for Landscape architecture.

POMONA - Has been my top choice throughout the application process. I have a sustainability background so I have a lot of respect for their program and excited to get involved in the Lyle center. Bang for the buck. Concerned for CAlifornia's bad financial situation and educational budget cuts. Can anybody point me towards some work that has come out of Pomona? Professors you like? and compared to USC.... what kind of name does it carry?

Sorry for the lengthy post, I need help in deciding this one. Congrats to everyone!

-laguirre

Laguirre-

I'm clearly biased, but Pomona's MLA  is unique among the programs that I know about in the group structure of the 606 studio/capstone project and that many of the projects are funded. For those not familiar with the 606 studio, is a group service-learning project that is developed in winter/spring of the 3rd year. These projects engage real world problems and create a regional vision plan (and is often very GIS intensive). From my first two quarters teaching, I see great value in the 606 process in developing professional skills beyond collaboration and leadership - but the individual expressions are muted compared to other program (though there is an independent thesis option, very few students go this route). see my blog for more info.

In contrast, UMN has a well established and supported by the faculty, mandatory individual (not group) capstone process that allows students to pursue personal interests in their investigation. UPenn (and I think the GSD) allow pursuing an independent studio (not a full blown thesis). When I went through the process, I was poorly supported by the landscape faculty, so most of the development of my project was pushed by my architecture faculty adviser. Most students at Penn take an elective studio and don't bother with attempting a thesis - there were just three of us in 2005.

The value pursuing an individual thesis project is that it prepares you for teaching and independently developing a line of critical inquiry that can also serve to launch a practice.  While a thesis isn't essential for teaching or practice, it certainly helped me land my current tenure-track spot. Not all schools support the thesis process, or require every student to participate (not all students are mature enough to successfully create a strong project on their own).

I'd be hypocritical to say avoid taking on the high level of student loans that USC/UPenn/GSD/RISD demand of most students, but $90k-$120K of debt is onerous and severely limits career choices after graduation. Cal Poly Pomona (and CCNY) are excellent education values where you can gain an superb education for a fraction of what a private or big ten education will cost. That said, there are fewer resources as the trade off - most of my students are fully aware of what they are missing and willingly accept the limitations of what we have for the financial freedom.

Remember part of what you're paying $35k or more in tuition for is the alumni network and reputation of the program. But strong alumni connections and reputation are not directly tied to cost.

Hi Barry,

Thanks for all your helpful input so far – I'm sure everyone on this thread has benefited. I'm wondering if you can speak more about the student debt, and the limitations this puts on ones career? I think you mentioned that you went to Penn – why did you choose to incur that debt (if you did) and would you do it again? I met a Harvard MLA the other day who told me he would do it again, in a second, but that yes, he had to think carefully about the expense of buying a sandwich. What a position that is!

I just wonder about the specifics of it too. On various sites, it seems that salary averages for LAs hover around 70K (this one was high: http://www.indeed.com/salary/Landscape-Architect.html), with salaries for unlicensed LAs about 55K (http://www.asla.org/NewsReleaseDetails.aspx?id=30041). Does an Ivy League degree put one on the higher end of this spectrum?

I know it's not impossible and many have done it – but how does one make payments of $800-900/mo on a starting salary of 55K/yr? Perhaps it's just my experience of the cost of living in NY, but that just seems... well, impossible.

I am leaving a stable career and lifestyle to pursue a career in LA – which I am passionate about and feel I must do. However, if I wanted to work for someone for the rest of my life, I would stay at my job! I definitely want to have my own firm or partnership (way down the road, I understand) and the ability to pursue research and teaching as well. I've been told, and am under the impression, that an Ivy degree helps position one to do so. What do you think? Is it worth it?

Thank you, again!

it's a huge challenge to pay the $800-$900/month loan payments on an entry level LA salary (or even mid-career $$$) - which these days range from the $30s into the $40ks. Larger firms pay more, and having prior professional experience gets you more too. $70k is after 10 years or more of experience. Academics don't pay quite as well as practice, but aren't too far out of parity either.

My choice for attending UPenn was as much about the calculus of lost income from three-years of not working full time as it was about tuition. If I was going to loose $50k or more each year, then the $90k in debt to cover tuition and lost income wasn't as big a number and I might as well go to the best program possible.

There have been days that my debt is overwhelming and it constantly impacts our lifestyle. So far it has been worth it for me as it has opened doors to teaching, but I can't speak for all my classmates if it was worth it. You don't need an Ivy League degree to run a practice or to teach - I'm starting to see that it is as much the person as the degree that determines success.

good luck and congrats again for being accepted into excellent programs!

Thanks Barry. These are super tough decisions, but you are right it is a blessing! I just heard from LSU, who offered me a tuition exemption and an assistantship. So LSU is now a serious contender. I've heard good things about the program – any thoughts on them?

And I just read they were voted #2 for MLA in 2012, after Harvard, from Design Intelligence.

Haha, looks like we're considering the exact same places, _maf! Also got into LSU with tuition exemption and assistantship. I've actually been drooling over LSU for quite a while now (fits amazingly well with my interests). Don't know that much about the inner workings of that program, but hope to bug Bradley with a few questions/possibly swing by the school prior to visiting Harvard. Interested in finding out how much interaction the BLAs have with the MLAs (there are a TON of BLAs ranging from 130 to 200 students, as I was told by the receptionist), and I'm a bit concerned about resource allocation. Congrats _maf!!

*also, I wouldn't pay much attention to DI ratings.

I'm not familiar with either the LSU program or any the faculty there. Perhaps I'll met some of them at CELA at the end of the month. One interesting note is that 1/3rd of their faculty is from the GSD and another 1/3rd is from Berkeley.

@byen01 -- Yes, how funny, our options are quite similar! Congratulations to you too  :)

DI ratings I understand, don't mean everything. However, I doubt they mean nothing. Although their students have won many recent ASLA awards, there isn't that much information about the school out there – besides the DI ratings. How did you become so aware of and interested in their program? It definitely seems like it would be a perfect place for your interests.

It seems as though numerous (most?) graduate courses and advanced studio topics, are shared with 4th/5th year undergrads, although BC (grad coordinator) states this will be changing over time, starting the upcoming semester. I agree, I am concerned about the resource/faculty attention allocation involved. I am going to try and visit too – let me know your thoughts when you do.

_maf, you should get in contact with their current students (the class reps listed on the website); they'd be able to shed a great deal of light on many of your questions. So, turns out that there really aren't that many 4th and 5th year undergrads (I'm guessing most drop out due to the rigorous nature of the program), so you're left with, what, 15 students per upper undergraduate class? From what I've learned, the faculty are very devoted to the MLAs, and likewise, the students come out as great LAs. I won't tell you my personal opinions of LSU ('positive that they are) - I'll let you come to your own conclusion. Also, found out about LSU through Cantrell's work. Much luck with picking a school though!

Thanks @byen01. Actually, you have already shed some light on the one question I posed. And don't worry – personal opinions, while they can be helpful, don't typically form my conclusion for me!

Hey _maf, any final decisions on which school you'll be attending?

Hi again @byen01,

Harvard. How about you?