Sorry for explaining a little bit about who Alfred Caldwell was. you know Make, people on Archinect just have to get over that they already graduated college and need to move on instead of continuously talking about college. Life goes on and we keep learning that's all I'm saying.
actually they don't need to get over anything, dq. we come to archinect for entertainment and (maybe a little) education.
talking about our education is certainly still relevant to a lot of us and weighing in on the current state of education is a good dialogue to have at any point in our careers.
Make- I agree that if students or recent grads have the opportunity to work at a construction site they should take it. If you can see how flashing works first hand detailing makes a lot more sense. Of course now a days there are very few construction jobs out there- so this point may be moot.
As for detailing - My initial experience out of school was working on very large institutional projects (those that require 500-1,000 sheets of drawings and take 3-5 years to build.) It was quite overwhelming. But I tried to take it in stride and learn on the job as best I could. The firm I worked for was very well set up to train interns - good mentors, lots of in house seminars, etc.
Sorry, Steven, I hope I didn't come off as testy but I think it's what happens when I reply rapid-fire style. I think we're all on the same page (except for Mdler who shares real estate with Doonesbury) with some interesting anecdotes and points of view. What's the enrollment like where you teach? We are way down...
yes sorry Steven, I know that you can't see my nice calm demeanor through my typing didn't mean to give a negative impression.
PS. Sarah, i had a similar experience regarding your first job, only thing is I also had the chance to travel and work at the job site, which was really fun, and it put me leaps and bounds ahead in experience compared to my colleagues with the same number of years in the field.
I do think it is ignorant for architecture schools to think they have a corner on teaching critical thinking and this dribble about that being the value they bring to students and can therefore justify not teaching fundamental skills and knowledge.
lanah, Maybe what was shocking to your dean is that even people that in his opinion should be excellent candidates for jobs still can't get jobs. I suppose those in academia are aware of the unemployment troubles, but perhaps only to the capacity that some of the slackers and dunces in the profession were laid off and won't find jobs ever again, but maybe he didn't realize a top graduate from his program, who is both licensed and experienced could be perpetually jobless too. That is a pretty shocking revelation.
barry, are the opportunities outside of the profession greater than those opportunities in it for today's grads? Perhaps they have been for some time. What does that mean? Did I get an architecture degree or a really bad entreprenurial degree with drawing classes?!?
Critical thinking isn't separated from practicing anymore...
If some one argues he teachs how to think in a critical way instead of looking at realities, it means he isn't thinking in a critical way yet.
academia is not practice and was never really intended to be. academia plus practice for 10 years = competent architect. if you happen to have done construction here and there perhaps you can shave a day or two off of the time spent in practice you need to be a good architect (ok, maybe a week but only if you were supervising in a steel shop).
i still find that recent graduates are more timid than they should be, which is partly because they don't have experience but also (in my absolutely not humble opinion) because they are afraid of failure. If anything I would prefer if schools taught students to be bolder not more technical. Right now education in general takes a middle of the road approach. I think it is a pretty reasonable way to do things even if it doesn't satisfy completely.
Anyway, about the understanding of the economy, what strawbeary says sounds pretty likely to me. Even the best students are having a hard time now, which is not the way it should be. Perhaps that is a surprise to some in the education trade. That does not mean they are insensitive or stupid, nor even ignorant.
It could possibly be a good reason to scapegoat them if that is what you need to explain the lack of jobs out there.
it isn't hard, but it is a lot of stuff to know. not sure how you can learn to run a construction site meeting or submit documents to get planning approval for a complex project involving all kinds of agencies and actors at...archi-school? that is why architects intern for a few years before/while taking exams. and then the learning really begins.
so just to avoid generalisations lets say it took ME 10 years to become good at what i am doing then.
out of curiosity what kind of education would change the picture, WITHOUT short-changing future architects in other ways?
i'm with you, jump. since i worked in a professor's office for three years while in a designy/history/theory-ish school, worked summers in a variety of offices, and spent some time working construction - all before graduation from undergrad - i'd have to say i got a full perspective of what should be necessary, both technical and otherwise. no way what you get by graduation could possibly be enough.
the well-roundedness of my professional education depended on the subsequent ten years, learning not only how to function in an office - site meetings, document submission, etc as you mention - but learning how effective communication and priority management makes space for design to happen (or not).
i'm still of the opinion that schools should provide the baseline technical knowledge, sure, but focus their energies on the stuff that you'll never get in the professional world - the idealistic and non-"timid" that gets beaten out of you on a daily basis.
agree with jump and sw, but then again, that is probably a reflection of our education and professional experience. i'm sure there are schools out there that do what make and other posters have in mind, but they tend to be more technical in nature. in fact, where i live, we have three archi schools within a 100 mile radius: university of michigan, university of detroit, and lawrence tech. all offer accredited degrees. if i wanted to learn construction documents and code, i definitely wouldn't go to um.
as much as we might like to believe that schools are oblivious otothe market, i think the opposite is true. schools position themselves to attract particular types of students. we tend to focus too much on the ivies and the so-called "elite" when in fact there is a great diversity of schools out there in academia.
right now, there seem to be more opportunities for grads in non-traditional roles based on an informal survey of the grads from my MLA program last year. Working for community groups, governmental agencies, utilities, energy consultants, research orgs, and NGOs.
the hot skills seem to be environmental literacy, strong communication skills (not just powerpoint or 3d), energy modeling, and GIS. Composting and rainwater management seems useful too.
Are educators in denial or just ignorant to the current situation with Architecture
Sorry for explaining a little bit about who Alfred Caldwell was. you know Make, people on Archinect just have to get over that they already graduated college and need to move on instead of continuously talking about college. Life goes on and we keep learning that's all I'm saying.
actually they don't need to get over anything, dq. we come to archinect for entertainment and (maybe a little) education.
talking about our education is certainly still relevant to a lot of us and weighing in on the current state of education is a good dialogue to have at any point in our careers.
why so testy?
Make- I agree that if students or recent grads have the opportunity to work at a construction site they should take it. If you can see how flashing works first hand detailing makes a lot more sense. Of course now a days there are very few construction jobs out there- so this point may be moot.
As for detailing - My initial experience out of school was working on very large institutional projects (those that require 500-1,000 sheets of drawings and take 3-5 years to build.) It was quite overwhelming. But I tried to take it in stride and learn on the job as best I could. The firm I worked for was very well set up to train interns - good mentors, lots of in house seminars, etc.
Sorry, Steven, I hope I didn't come off as testy but I think it's what happens when I reply rapid-fire style. I think we're all on the same page (except for Mdler who shares real estate with Doonesbury) with some interesting anecdotes and points of view. What's the enrollment like where you teach? We are way down...
yes sorry Steven, I know that you can't see my nice calm demeanor through my typing didn't mean to give a negative impression.
PS. Sarah, i had a similar experience regarding your first job, only thing is I also had the chance to travel and work at the job site, which was really fun, and it put me leaps and bounds ahead in experience compared to my colleagues with the same number of years in the field.
Sarah,
There are schools with labs where you lay bricks and build houses indoors. I wish I had known about them!
make,
well.. there's labs in which you build houses and then knock them down ;-)
I do think it is ignorant for architecture schools to think they have a corner on teaching critical thinking and this dribble about that being the value they bring to students and can therefore justify not teaching fundamental skills and knowledge.
lanah, Maybe what was shocking to your dean is that even people that in his opinion should be excellent candidates for jobs still can't get jobs. I suppose those in academia are aware of the unemployment troubles, but perhaps only to the capacity that some of the slackers and dunces in the profession were laid off and won't find jobs ever again, but maybe he didn't realize a top graduate from his program, who is both licensed and experienced could be perpetually jobless too. That is a pretty shocking revelation.
barry, are the opportunities outside of the profession greater than those opportunities in it for today's grads? Perhaps they have been for some time. What does that mean? Did I get an architecture degree or a really bad entreprenurial degree with drawing classes?!?
Critical thinking isn't separated from practicing anymore...
If some one argues he teachs how to think in a critical way instead of looking at realities, it means he isn't thinking in a critical way yet.
"Practicing" in a broad way...not just running one's own office or having a license.
oops, dribble should be drivel
hehehe
dribble works for me.
academia is not practice and was never really intended to be. academia plus practice for 10 years = competent architect. if you happen to have done construction here and there perhaps you can shave a day or two off of the time spent in practice you need to be a good architect (ok, maybe a week but only if you were supervising in a steel shop).
i still find that recent graduates are more timid than they should be, which is partly because they don't have experience but also (in my absolutely not humble opinion) because they are afraid of failure. If anything I would prefer if schools taught students to be bolder not more technical. Right now education in general takes a middle of the road approach. I think it is a pretty reasonable way to do things even if it doesn't satisfy completely.
Anyway, about the understanding of the economy, what strawbeary says sounds pretty likely to me. Even the best students are having a hard time now, which is not the way it should be. Perhaps that is a surprise to some in the education trade. That does not mean they are insensitive or stupid, nor even ignorant.
It could possibly be a good reason to scapegoat them if that is what you need to explain the lack of jobs out there.
"academia is not practice and was never really intended to be. academia plus practice for 10 years = competent architect."
BULLSHIT
It really isn't that difficult if you have a education that prepares you for it.
it isn't hard, but it is a lot of stuff to know. not sure how you can learn to run a construction site meeting or submit documents to get planning approval for a complex project involving all kinds of agencies and actors at...archi-school? that is why architects intern for a few years before/while taking exams. and then the learning really begins.
so just to avoid generalisations lets say it took ME 10 years to become good at what i am doing then.
out of curiosity what kind of education would change the picture, WITHOUT short-changing future architects in other ways?
i'm with you, jump. since i worked in a professor's office for three years while in a designy/history/theory-ish school, worked summers in a variety of offices, and spent some time working construction - all before graduation from undergrad - i'd have to say i got a full perspective of what should be necessary, both technical and otherwise. no way what you get by graduation could possibly be enough.
the well-roundedness of my professional education depended on the subsequent ten years, learning not only how to function in an office - site meetings, document submission, etc as you mention - but learning how effective communication and priority management makes space for design to happen (or not).
i'm still of the opinion that schools should provide the baseline technical knowledge, sure, but focus their energies on the stuff that you'll never get in the professional world - the idealistic and non-"timid" that gets beaten out of you on a daily basis.
agree with jump and sw, but then again, that is probably a reflection of our education and professional experience. i'm sure there are schools out there that do what make and other posters have in mind, but they tend to be more technical in nature. in fact, where i live, we have three archi schools within a 100 mile radius: university of michigan, university of detroit, and lawrence tech. all offer accredited degrees. if i wanted to learn construction documents and code, i definitely wouldn't go to um.
as much as we might like to believe that schools are oblivious otothe market, i think the opposite is true. schools position themselves to attract particular types of students. we tend to focus too much on the ivies and the so-called "elite" when in fact there is a great diversity of schools out there in academia.
right now, there seem to be more opportunities for grads in non-traditional roles based on an informal survey of the grads from my MLA program last year. Working for community groups, governmental agencies, utilities, energy consultants, research orgs, and NGOs.
the hot skills seem to be environmental literacy, strong communication skills (not just powerpoint or 3d), energy modeling, and GIS. Composting and rainwater management seems useful too.
but that list is biased towards 'scapers.
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