I can easily point to Tadao Ando's work as one of my earliest sources of inspiration, pulling me toward a life embedded in architecture. The powerful simplicity of his forms has always seemed to me, to represent an understanding far greater than that of the built environment alone. A few weeks ago, we had a rare opportunity to meet and talk with the master, thanks to a generous offer from Cal Poly Pomona and Axel Schmitzberger, during Ando's brief visit to Los Angeles to collect his 2012 Richard Neutra Award. So, Orhan, Alex, Kaori and I headed out to Neutra's VDL House in Silver Lake, on a chilly afternoon in late March, for a brief, yet memorable, chat.
Orhan Ayyüce
I met you 25 years ago at Morphosis' office while you were visiting LA doing lectures. I'd like to ask you about the changes you've noticed in Los Angeles since that time.
Tadao Ando
The first time I came to LA was in 1975. Since then the world has moved very quickly. The environment has changed so much as well. The mentality, or thinking, of the architects here has not changed much compared to the rate of environmental change.
OA
Can you describe this more? The architects of that period believed they were doing groundbreaking work. Do you still think this is true?
TA
What I see, as opposed to the 1950's, when we look at the case study houses, part of the California architecture was the promise of a new lifestyle. The architecture was trying to accommodate, or relate, to this new lifestyle for that generation. This seems to have gradually changed to a search for form for expression by itself. Now, I see more architecture that relates to the business of architecture. In this sense, it seems like the focus of trying to define what living in our time should be like, is not as strong as it used to be back in the '50's.
OA
In the 50's the economic conditions were completely different. We are in a completely different era. We have a very definite difference between income levels, so there's some kind of political nervousness, and architects can no longer separate themselves from the nervousness so they have to respond to social issues in addition to architectural or urban issues. So, I was wondering if you have any thoughts about the architect's role of being a social leader in changing the environment or what they can do at the urban scale.
TA
For me, going back to what we were talking about before, it's a problem not unique to Los Angeles. It's a problem we all share regarding natural resources and the environment. Not too long ago, we were a planet of 3 billion people. Now we have 7.7 billion people. We'll quickly have 10 billion. Because of that, it's very difficult to not always think about how to use the resources available to us. In the sense of the gap you mentioned, it leads to something we need need to address, whether you're rich or poor. As a design profession, we need to make it very clear what our position is, in the global situation that we're facing. How do we intelligently address the problem that faces everyone, about material resources? And how do we lead society to think that it is something we have to address, rather than just following the business driven goals of each project? It's important that within each of our work that we think about how we use materials, and how energy can be used in a way that it creates a meaningful message for people that live in the building. How the importance of the environment can be perceived by the experience of the architecture.
The way that architects think about their work is still the same. There's no change or shift in focus in the way architects address available resources and energy use. It's important for young architects to begin thinking about this.
OA
Are you doing any work, in your own office, that embodies the principals you just talked about?
TA
For me, what I'm trying to do, is try to make people think about these issues. I'm not in a position to tell people what to do. I want people to realize the potential and the problem. For example, in my work, whether it is an art museum or other type of project, I try to put nature as the focus of the message. As a person looks at a space I design, they may question their own existence as it relates to the space, but they are still looking at the architecture in relationship to the natural context.
I look at art - whether it's art, music, film, architecture - as a way to look for inspiration. To make a thing about other things. So, in that same way, I try to make people think about other things in my own work. For example, on the flight here, I was watching the movie "Iron Lady" starring Meryl Streep, portraying Margaret Thatcher in her later years. I was watching Meryl Streep, as an actress - an artist portraying a role - but at the same time, I was thinking about the life and decisions of Margaret Thatcher. In a similar way, in my own work, I try to embed a message that the users can take away with them and use in their own way.
Another example is when I was in Malibu this morning, at my construction site, there was a group of sea lions, and this made me realize that I was not alone in this environment. They are using this same environment.
Paul Petrunia
The business of architecture is in a state of crisis right now. There are many young architects and students that are questioning their role because it is so difficult to find work. Do you have any advice for young architects that are struggling to find new ways to apply their architectural skills and experience?
TA
For me, I think architecture is one of the best professions for society. How many careers can you find that can combine structure and composition of space; while working with specialists in may different fields to create a work of architecture. These skills don't limit themselves to just buildings. We have learned to coordinate and collaborate with many different people to create great things. There are few other professions that rely on one person to coordinate these types of important projects for society. The architect's skills are beneficial to society in so many ways, and that leads us to think about how our creative, managerial and coordination skills can be applied to other fields.
We don't work in a vacuum. We compose, put everything together, while working with a lot of people. There is a lot of excitement and inspiration that comes from interacting and working with so many people. We need to be able to use this practice in a way that extends the profession of architecture into other areas. There are always times of recession and hardship, so we need to understand this greater skill that architecture provides us.
And for me, personally, the hope and the dream is not something you can receive from someone. It's important to start from within. You can't wait for something to happen. This is the approach I've always taken. Look at me - I'm doing well... I didn't study architecture in school. I didn't graduate from university. I started with a big disadvantage.
OA
So you're not going back to boxing?
(laughs all around)
TA
I'm still boxing!
OA
I was watching a documentary online about you on the internet. It was in Japanese, so I couldn't understand a word. There was a scene in the video showing you with a megaphone in your hand, speaking to about 200 hundred workers at a construction site. This scene made me very emotional. I could see that you have a talent for connecting with people.
TA
As we all know, you can't make architecture by yourself. An architect needs to make everyone take ownership for the work. To be successful, you need to ensure that every carpenter, plumber, and so on, in every project, is doing their own project. Every time I go to the construction site, I try to take a photograph of every worker. It's a symbol that we're all working together with a shared goal. It's very important for me that everyone feels that way.
Paul Petrunia is the founder and director of Archinect, a (mostly) online publication/resource founded in 1997 to establish a more connected community of architects, students, designers and fans of the designed environment. Outside of managing his growing team of writers, editors, designers and ...
A long-time contributor to Archinect as a senior editor and writing about architecture, urbanism, people, politics, arts, and culture. The featured articles, interviews, news posts, activism, and provocations are published here and on other websites and media. A licensed architect in ...
156 Comments
January 2013 – Present WILLIAM MAY ~ RESIDENTIAL DESIGN & DRAFTING
You seem to be looking at an old resume, here is a better one for to dissect.
Blah, Blah, Blah
January 2000 – January 2013 ARCHITECTS & ARCHITECTURAL FIRMS
KAYAFAS ARCHITECTS
ROBERT T. STEVENS ARCHITECTS
RICHARD N. MANNS RA
KATHY HRABOVSKY RA
HERITAGE ARCHITECTURE
SUSAN LOCKWOOD AIA
JOEL FARKAS, AIA
JAMES SAMPEY AIA
RSH ARCHITECTS
DEVLIN ARCHITECTURE
PINNACLE DESIGN & CONSULTING
MARONDA HOMES
HAYES LARGE
WALLOVER MITCHELL BONTEMPO
June 2001- January 2006 HOWARD HANNA REAL ESTATE
January 1990 - October 2000 STEEL CENTER AREA VOCATIONAL TECHNICAL SCHOOL
February 1977 - January 1990 CONTRACT DRAFTING
You must be looking at an old resume. Here is a better one for you to dissect.
Blah, Blah Blah
go fuck yourself.
Really, how rude LMAO
Since you won't talk Tadao, lets finish this with exact info.
In each of the following at the end, can you tell me exact starting and end dates (preferably exact but month/year) at each. How many hours per week. Who were your supervisors that were licensed as an architect and where. Please include initials and where possible license #. What were your role. How many IDP training hours were acquired at each.
What were your roles, responsibilities and duties.
Do keep in mind, we may contact these former employers for verification. Anyone at Pennsylvania's Board of Architect, we'll check this out unless you guys want to.
If you want to chime in on this, please do so.
Will May wrote:
January 2000 – January 2013 ARCHITECTS & ARCHITECTURAL FIRMS
KAYAFAS ARCHITECTS
ROBERT T. STEVENS ARCHITECTS
RICHARD N. MANNS RA
KATHY HRABOVSKY RA
HERITAGE ARCHITECTURE
SUSAN LOCKWOOD AIA
JOEL FARKAS, AIA
JAMES SAMPEY AIA
RSH ARCHITECTS
DEVLIN ARCHITECTURE
PINNACLE DESIGN & CONSULTING
MARONDA HOMES
HAYES LARGE
WALLOVER MITCHELL BONTEMPO
tadao ando.
A couple of those aren't architecture firms, having no licensed staff or ownership.
Others are positions that lasted a matter of a few weeks to a few months (again based on info from your other resumes).
See, this is the problem with people who come on here saying "I have more archiecture experience than most architects, so I should be allowed to take the exam." Most of the time it turns out that they're vastly exaggerating or misrepresenting their backgrounds. Teaching CAD is not the same as teaching architecture. Having a degree in drafting is not the same as having a degree in architecture. Working for 14 firms in 13 years while also selling real estate means very short-term jobs, making it very unlikely that progressive skill development happened at any.
Besides, you're leaving other jobs off this list - like your stints at Traco and Giant Eagle - that took place during the same span of years, meaning even less time that you could have lasted at most of these firms.
My thoughts too.
MARONDA HOMES
Pinnacle Design & Consulting, Fairfax, VA looks like it is an architecture firm at the linkedin
https://www.linkedin.com/company/pinnacle-design-and-consulting-inc
I checked the website. I validate that it is an architecture design firm. If this is in fact the same firm then that is a potential qualifying experience. I will add these firms are architects/architecture firms:
KAYAFAS ARCHITECTS
ROBERT T. STEVENS ARCHITECTS
RICHARD N. MANNS RA
KATHY HRABOVSKY RA
HERITAGE ARCHITECTURE
SUSAN LOCKWOOD AIA
JOEL FARKAS, AIA
JAMES SAMPEY AIA
RSH ARCHITECTS
DEVLIN ARCHITECTURE
WALLOVER MITCHELL BONTEMPO (Yes, they were an architecture firm... don't know their status now)
HAYES LARGE
I can't say where they are located. If all are in the U.S. then yes they would be architects or firms and maybe POTENTIALLY qualifying experience.
My precise questions I asked earlier is PRECISE information that I request for determining more about the degree of his qualifications.
Actually, the only one that is any question is.... MARONDA HOMES.
If you have more info on Pinnacle Design & Consulting and their status of licensure AT THE TIME HE WORKED THERE... it would be good.
I haven't spent the time to check each of the listed Architects if they were licensed at the time he worked there. I do not know exact dates but I haven't done that yet. If they were during the entire time window, then they are definitely architects during the time.
Back to Tadao.... please.
Chris Teeter wrote:
good call Balkins.....sophomore year at Kansas with Prof. Grabow, some guy purchased a Tadao Ando book (1998+/-). at the crit a juror noted "there is a theme in this studio, its very much minimal, concrete, maybe Japanese?"............to which the kid I remember from Chicago who was babysat by some famous actress....i want to say the actress in the movie Pretty Woman....anyway he said "I bought an Ando book!".........the crit was a great one after that, each juror stating we had either copied without interpretation or actually GOT Ando correctly...and i want to say Prof. Farnen (hope i got that right) went off on a lengthy explanation to how and why Ando's concrete had the holes in it. He also taught me something I had only slightly realized after he spoke.....JFK in Berlin, DE built probably late 60's or early 70's, as a 10 year old I marveled at what looked like boards of wood in the concrete......the Japanese apparently will choose the type of wood. as Farnan might of said, formwork worth more than $10k sf, I thought marble.....the Japenese choose the wood for the formwork and then they would proudly sand the concrete smooth as if it was marble. blew my mind.......recently Janos Spitzer, most knowledeable flooring guy in NYC gave me a quick lesson on grains and quality. i mean that is serious to choose a perfect piece of wood to leave its mark in a crude material such as concrete.........like any serious architect i like mountains,but i am at the beach in ocean city, md with wife and kids, knocked a few burley oak Kolsch beers off at a fine beach establishment, now to avoiding the waves and sand - The Autopoiesis of Architecture - schumacher....
and the following post...
back at the hotel room, beach to boardwalk interlude....ode to Ando
(the kids won't let me watch College Football, what happened to Stanford?!?)
i'd say you can't plan moments like that, but it appears Ando did.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted above
I find his work interesting. I reckoned Tadao had a strong affinity to concrete mass influenced to some degree by Louis Kahn. I'm not saying he copies "Louie" but it has influence in the design.
I respect the work for what it is from an architect worthy of recognition in his own right.
Please elaborate about the 'holes'. I have my guesses but I rather listen (read) on this than comment.
JBeaumont
"A couple of those aren't architecture firms, having no licensed staff or ownership."
Really? How did you arrive at that? Every one of these firms, including Maronda Homes were at the time of my presence architectural firms with a licensed registered architect on staff or was the principal owner.
KAYAFAS ARCHITECTS - Wheeling WV
ROBERT T. STEVENS ARCHITECTS Upper St. Clair, PA
RICHARD N. MANNS RA Munhall, PA
KATHY HRABOVSKY RA Mt. Lebanon, PA
HERITAGE ARCHITECTURE Wheeling WV and Fort Lauderdale FL
SUSAN LOCKWOOD AIA Greenwich CT
JOEL FARKAS, AIA Squirrel Hill PA
JAMES SAMPEY AIA Upper St. Clair PA
RSH ARCHITECTS Upper St. Clair PA
DEVLIN ARCHITECTURE Pittsburgh PA
PINNACLE DESIGN & CONSULTING Fairfax, VA
MARONDA HOMES Pittsburgh PA
HAYES LARGE Pittsburgh PA
WALLOVER MITCHELL BONTEMPO Beaver Falls PA
As for what my roles have been. Interesting you should ask. My role has been to support the architects I have worked with producing Existing Condition Documentation, Schematic Design, Design Development and Construction Documents. I have completed Punch Lists, coordinated consultants, met with contractors, researched codes and established material selections. My role has been to do everything the principal architect would do if so directed. But, frankly it doesn't matter what I did, or who says what I did. All that matters is that there isn't any reason that I should be denied to take the A.R.E.. Tonight I met with an owner to design a structure for his property. The house was designed by a local architect back in the mid 60's. The owner and I talked about the style, the landscape and other features about the house that would hopefully be integrated into the new structure. If I were permitted to do the same thing with a commercial reuse or a college master plan or a religious renovation, I would AND could.
What you all seem to want to ignore is that for my experience with so many mentors is that these people were architects, registered and licensed. They were my personal educators, my professors. They taught me with real situations that had real consequences for real people. My classrooms and studios were offices and jobsites of real projects - schools, hotels, hospitals, office buildings, some I can name and some I can't.
I am not degrading Mr. Ando or his work. The fact that he never completed any formal degree, never completed the IDP, never took the A.R.E. in this country is exactly why Anyone, including myself, should be permitted to take the A.R.E.. The body of my work is not for anyone to agree with or disagree with, it isn't something that anyone has the right to approve or condemn as legitimate. The fact that a test exists to determine fitness is in place and no one should be permitted to deny me from taking that test for if I pass that test, I have met the minimal requirements for practicing architecture as a licensed registered architect. Berate me, find fault with me, choose not to accept my work as what you perceive to be what architecture is, I Don't Care What You Think. To deny me to take the A.R.E. is to negate the A.R.E.'s purpose. If you don't let me take the A.R.E. you negate the validity of the entire process. You essentially can not grant or deny me the use of the title of architect. You forfeit the ability to stop me from using the title because you negate the process.
Mr. Ando, you are living proof that architecture is what we make of it, regardless of any title.
NCARB -
The Architect Registration Examination® (ARE®) assesses candidates for their knowledge, skills, and ability to provide the various services required in the practice of architecture.
Balkins, Teeter, JBeaumont , what you think, what you like or don't like, what is legitimate, whether you agree or disagree, Doesn't matter!
All that matters is that the A.R.E. is in place to determine that the Minimum Requirements are met. By denying me and others is to negate the entire process - you forfeit. You blow it. You don't get to say crap, You Don't Count - only the A.R.E counts. By denying me you deny the process. I don't care what you think or say, You Don't Matter. If you negate the process you can't stop me from using the title.
"Holes, HOLES, you give rat's ass about Holes?" Stupid Americans, 107,000+ in country and in 10 years not one wins Pritzker but you wonder about holes."
Japan Rules!!!!!!!
Oh, ps, don't say what you think holes are for, might be wrong, look bad, look stupid, keep mouth shut, no way to be wrong or look stupid.
Holes are for peanutbutter! Fill holes, feed birds and piss off squirrels!
Will May,
The damn reason I am asking you to put this information together and get it together so you can actually get the license because with the information all together, NEEDS to answer all PERCEIVED holes.
They expect ALL documented experience comparable to the quality and validity of experience compared to IDP. I request the name of each architect (what state(s) that architect was licensed in. This way, the verification of the legal status of the firm's practice of architecture at the time. We need to get them to VERIFY your record. What your role is. They must support your claim. What they say is the deciding factor. Your W-2 form only supports your claim that you had been working at a company. It doesn't support what your role.
I can be Frank O. Gehry's coffee bitch for 20 years and I would NOT get ANY credit for IDP or architectural experience requirement in ANY state. Just being employed by an architect firm does not qualify. That is not how experience is evaluated for acceptability. It has to be work of architectural nature. Your claim maybe valid but YOU NEED YOUR FORMER EMPLOYER AND THE ACTUAL ARCHITECT SUPERVISOR WHO WAS YOUR SUPERVISOR TO SIGN OFF AND VERIFY WHAT YOU DID AND DESCRIBE YOUR ROLE IN THE FIRM IN A MANNER TO SUPPORTS WHAT YOU CLAIM.
If you say your role was Existing Condition Documentation, Schematic Design, Design Development and Construction Documents, etc., YOUR ARCHITECT SUPERVISOR MUST IN THEIR OWN WORDS THAT YOUR INVOLVEMENT THAT SUPPORTS YOUR CLAIM.
If the employer signs off but not the architect supervisor then it doesn't count if they are different persons.
I'm not saying you are a liar. I am saying is get the shit together and have it together. If they deny you, take the board to court with your supervisors and former employers as supporting witnesses and the documents. Make it SO damn lock tight that you can legally prosecute the architect board if you have to. Even then, this detail of documentation would get you licensed in Washington state and other states. In court, your attorney would hold them to task to explain exactly what reasons the board is denying you. What are the basis of their decision. They would be held under oath before the court of law with penalty of purjury if they lie, they would be required to answer the question. They can not require a degree with the explicit path being applied for is for someone with no degree. NO DEGREE means NO DEGREE.
What I need you to do is get those experience verified and sent DIRECTLY to the board by your former employer. They can certainly mail you xerox copies so you know with your records. YOU do have the right to contest the licensing board and appear before the licensing board with an attorney.
I would advise that you be a little more cautious with your choice of words. DON'T REPRESENT YOURSELF AS AN ARCHITECTURE or DOING ARCHITECTURAL WORK WITHOUT CLEARLY INDICATING EVERY SINGLE TIME WITH THE WORDS "UNDER SUPERVISION OF A LICENSED ARCHITECT". You don't want to be walking out of the board meeting earning fines.
MY ADVICE IS BE CAREFUL WITH THE WORDS YOU SAY. They can fine you for saying you are performing architectural services every single time you say that without saying it was under supervision of a licensed architect. They can and would hit you with the maximum fine each time.
I know by your word usage in the past that you could end up with $10,000+ in fines.
If the fine is comparable to Oregon... $5000 per violation. If you say it 3 times that you perform architectural services without saying "... under supervision of a registered architect." then that would be a $15,000 fine. I don't want you walking out with a fine.
Now, may I ask you another question.... Have you been sanctioned under a disciplinary action of the Pennsylvania Board of Architects in the last 5 years or simply... ever? Have you been fined for unlawful practice of architecture, title violation or other such violations?
If so, it can bar you from licensure in that state.
I ask you this because it is important. I never asked the board specifically about you or if you ever had a violation record with them.
Shore up all loose ends. You could contest the licensing board and request to be present at the meeting. If you do, PLEASE keep cool and calm and collective and be careful how you phrase things so you don't inadvertently violate the law in such a way that they could issue a fine against you.
Don't go there with an attitude. Be civil. Be smart and NEVER represent yourself as an architect. Don't piss them off and have a negative view of your moral character. They can bar you if you demonstrate instability. Be professional and keep collective, calm with mastery of emotions by not getting emotional. You need to be Vulcan like that way.
Will May,
I am not Pennsylvania Board of Architect but I would think you want ABSOLUTELY every base covered. The saying dot all your i's and cross all your t's. Don't leave questions about what you have in experience.
I asked certain questions for a reason. There is a method to that madness. The critical look is for your benefit. If you think I or others here doesn't want you to become licensed or take the ARE. You are mistaken. We are not your enemy. If you can answer the questions I asked completely, then you can answer a great deal of the questions they will have.
If that board is at all reasonable then they want quality of documentation and verification of employment history. Be elaborate and your supervisor should elaborate and give a thorough picture. What projects you worked on. When they were. What your roles and responsibility were. Get it thoroughly documented to the hilt to the highest standards POSSIBLE.
If neccessary, be present at that meeting and if you really need to, have a wheel barrel full of plans, documents and so forth and even some of your former employers.
I'm not asking for something easy but something that would put passive pressure. If I were you, that would be what I would be doing. Board meetings are suppose to be open to public. If you must, do what you must.
I am not an architect. Everyone who I work with knows it. My website has a page devoted to consumer notice that says I'm not an architect. Every minute I have documented is under the direct supervision of a licensed registered architect. When I perform work for residential clients I do so under the PA Licensure exclusion for residential projects.
There are licensed architects who have ignored my requests to provide Letters of Work Experience, they simply ignore certified mail.
I recently applied to the Board. They of course denied my application. They said that I could appeal, in writing. I sent the letter. I just got the Final Order that because they didn't receive my letter their judgment is final.
So, either these people are devious or incompetent. I can't afford attorneys. I can barely make it from pay to pay. This process is tainted. Again, there is no reason that I should be prevented from taking the test.
And now, NCARB is going one better. Now they are proposing a pre-graduation integration of education, experience requirements and the opportunity to take each of the six divisions of the new Architect Registration Examination® 5.0.
So, now, people with No experience can take the A.R.E.. But someone like me who Does have experience is not being permitted to take the test.
Sorry, there is an ethical problem here. Licensed architects are controlling a market place and the consumer is being held hostage. If there were no codes, one might argue that someone like me might not have the knowledge, skill or training one might receive in a degree program, which isn't really true, but I Do have knowledge, skill and training. My experience in actual offices doing real work is far better than any classroom lecture or even any studio.
Passive pressure doesn't work. They simply do what they want. What they are doing is unethical and probably illegal.
Again, if a person were to take the test and pass, they are deemed fit to practice architecture. That is what the test is for. Preventing someone from taking the test is negating the process. Denying me to take the test is denying me the ability to seek and secure work. How is that legal?
Richard,
Look at it another way. Let's say that all the former employers say how great I was. The Board give me eligibility based on what those people say.
If I take the A.R.E. and Don't pass, that makes them all look like idiots - They endorsed me and I don't pass - now who looks worse, them, or me?
As a former CERTIFIED educator I know what tests are for. And just like NCARB indicates:
The Architect Registration Examination® (ARE®) assesses candidates for their knowledge, skills, and ability to provide the various services required in the practice of architecture.
That test, regardless of what any employer says, determines if a person meets the MIMIMUM requirements to practice architecture.
I could be Frank Gehry's coffee bitch AND protégée but if I don't pass the test, I'm not able to call myself an architect. It doesn't matter what people Say, it's only what I can Do - If I pass, I'm good to go, if I don't, then I don't. I don't collect $200 and I don't get to call myself an architect.
Really? You think people aren't signing off on your experience because they'll look bad if you don't pass? To whom would they look bad? Those forms aren't publicly available - I can't imagine that the architects are all afraid that some state administrative assistant is going to go back through the applications of those who fail their exams, identify their supervisors, and shame them. This is absurd.
First: The first-time pass rate of most of the exam sections is only in the 55 to 75% range - that leaves a pretty high likelihood that any signing supervisor will have a supervisee who fails some section at some point. Second: Sometimes I don't even hear again from my former-emplloyee interns after I sign off on their IDP. Some keep in touch, some don't. How would I ever even know if they passed, failed, or even took the test? Supervisors don't get any reports from the state or NCARB.
If people are refusing to sign off on your experience there are more likely reasons: 1. Their records and recollections don't support that you achieved the experience you claim. 2. Whoever supervised you isn't at the firm anymore, can't access old firm records, and doesn't remember enough to wing it without them. 3. The firm or branch of the firm doesn't exist anymore so good luck to anybody in finding any records to support what you did or didn't do there (and that is the case with some firms on your list.)
Pennsylvania adopted an NAAB degree requirement in 1989. Ever since then applying without a degree has been in the form of an appeal, reviewed by the board on an individual basis. It's not a standard application path - it's a request for an exception. The last person I know personally who got licensed that way was in 2005 - but he'd been approved to test almost five years before that, and kept failing the same section every six months. It took 8 him 8 or 9 tries at the test.
If all that matters to you is passing the ARE, why won't you listen to the 8 or 10 people who have already suggested to you that you take it through another state? There are plenty of others that don't require a degree, and some of them allow testing to start with only 2 years of IDP completed. You don't have to live there or test there. What's the problem?
Will May,
The reason they want verification from your former employers and architect supervisors is that applicants for these exams have been known to flat out lie.
If the architect supervisors were to willfully flat out lie, they risk losing their license. They have something to lose. They have something as an incentive to be truthful and forthright.
Further, I agree with what Aluminate wrote. They are valid points to which I agree with.
What states, specifically, do not require a degree And accept the 5,600 hours of IDP ( which has been accepted by NCARB as being completed ) and will permit me to start testing with only 2 years of experience?
Pennsylvania does not require a degree. They require 6 years and completion of IDP.
As for those firms that won't provide the Letters of Employment, they simply ignore my requests, why? Because they can.
Feel free to provide me with the State (s) ARB information that WILL accept my application to begin testing without a degree, has completed IDP and only need 2 years of experience.
What people aren't getting is that what I claim I have done and can do, I have done. What someone does or doesn't recollect, Doesn't matter. If I pass the test, that's it, I'm good to go. I have worked as a draftsman, designer, project coordinator, cad manager and intern architect, so what?! Working as I have with a sole proprietor architect and myself is what I have done in my career since October 2000. The profession is not one of steady stream of work, that is a fact.
Well, get this. Last week I received a Final Decree Order that said I missed the deadline to appeal. Now, a week later, today's mail, the Board is Vacating their previous order and has now ordered a hearing set for early next year. What the heck is going on?
Calling yourself an "intern architect" is illegal in about half of all states, and in most of the others it specifically requires an NAAB degree. You have that on your online resume, along with a few other titles using variations of the word "architect".
The board's vacating the decision most likely means they found that your letter was stamped as having been received prior to the deadline. It most likely hadn't made it to the appropriate office yet when the previous letter was sent to you.
Vermont is one state that will allow testing to start with 2 years of IDP documented, and allows licensing without any degree. There are several others. You could start testing now if you get permission through any one of them.
I didn't say any state would award a license with only two years of IDP - but the majority do allow testing to start at that point and that is NCARB's current model policy. Vermont requires an additional 1 to 6 years of experience, on top of IDP, for those without NAAB degrees.
Pennsylvania DOES require an NAAB degree - but they allow an appeal process for those with 6 years of additional experience to request to waive the degree requirement. The requirement for the NAAB degree was adopted in 1989. This is an issue of how the rules interact with the statutes. I've known several people who have tried that route in PA but the last one to be successful was in 2005.
Richard,
If they say I was a coffee bitch but I say I was the draftsman responsible for producing the projects from October of 2008 to April 2009 - whose version do you think the board is going to accept?
I have letters from 2 PA State Senators and 2 architects I worked with vouching for my testimony, so what? The Board is under no requirement to accept my witnesses or letters. They can and have simply said, it doesn't count. And that is that.
I would ask this question - How many people out there who have a degree in architecture can't find work in architectural firms or with sole proprietors? I would bet that there are a lot.
I guess I have to wonder, why do people feel the need to lie about their experience to take a test that they have little hope to pass if they don't have the kind of experience it takes to pass the test? If they haven't worked in an office or with a licensed architect and Don't have documented completion of IDP ( I have documentation of IDP completion )
Dear Mr. May,
On April 5th, 2012, NCARB implemented an new Intern Development Program; IDP 2.0. This new version of the NCARB internship program introduced many changes to the former IDP rules. Previously, you did not satisfy all of the IDP requirements due to the eligibility date rules. During this transition, your experience was ‘rolled over’ into the IDP 2.0 program [details about the IDP 2.0 Roll Over are available on our website]. Due to these rule changes, we are now able to apply the revised IDP eligibility date rules. Under the new program rules that became effective on April 5th, you have now satisfied the NCARB experience requirement. We will be sending a revised copy of your record to the Pennsylvania Board this week identifying your updated status. You will receive a separate email notification after your record transmittal is complete. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please contact me at your convenience. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Douglas Morgan
Director, Records
Folks, I have done what I have been asked to do. The problem is that I can say anything I want and the Board holds the final trump card, they are able to say no. They can effectively negate the validity of the test by denying me to take the test - what good is a test if I can't take it?
Will May:
Richard,
If they say I was a coffee bitch but I say I was the draftsman responsible for producing the projects from October of 2008 to April 2009 - whose version do you think the board is going to accept?
Your supervisor with the license not you. You are the applicant. You are the "liar" (in their eyes... you would be viewed as the liar). You have the motive to lie. The supervisor has the incentive to not lie because they have a license they can lose. You don't.
Think about it.
You need to have compelling evidence to say otherwise.
WHAT ONLINE RESUME ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!!!!!!!!
VARIATIONS? WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!
"Vermont is one state that will allow testing to start with 2 years of IDP documented, and allows licensing without any degree. "
And then what? If I can't get reciprocity for the State where I live then I'm Still not permitted to use the title of architect in my own frigging State
"There are several others. You could start testing now if you get permission through any one of them." WELL? Name them!!!!!
Who is going to prove if a supervisor is lying?! How is someone going to verify what any supervisor says what anyone did or didn't do?
What possible compelling evidence can anyone possibly provide? There is Nothing that anyone can provide to prove anything.
When I produced the 77 projects from 2009 to 2012 at Bob Stevens firm, where does it say my name on Anything! Where does it say I was the draftsman and not the coffee bitch?!
Give me the 5 year rolling clock to pass the ARE. When I pass, That's it, end of the story. What the hell is the problem?
The Test is THE defining entity, not what anyone says! That's the whole point of the test, regardless of what anyone says, THE ARE determines the Minimum Requirements.
Aluminate - you must be reading something that I'm not finding. What are you smoking dude?
4d How many years of acceptable experience are required with a high school education only? 9
7 Is the NCARB IDP required to satisfy your board's experience requirement? Yes
8 Does your board require additional experiece beyond the 3,740 hours required to complete IDP for candidates with a NAAB degree? Yes
8a Please identify the additional experience required for initial licensure for candidates with a NAAB-degree IDP and a minimum of 3 years
10a When can an Intern-Architect access the ARE? After completion of a NAAB-accredited degree and a portion of the IDP (1 year prior)
"Vermont is one state that will allow testing to start with 2 years of IDP documented, and allows licensing without any degree. "
4d How many years of acceptable experience are required with a high school education only? 9
9, not 2!
Does your board require additional experiece beyond the 3,740 hours required to complete IDP for candidates with a NAAB degree? Yes
NAAB DEGREE AND IDP PLUS a minimum of 3 years
Hey Aluminate, did you actually read something that I'm not reading?
Get yourself a constitutional lawyer and sue the board. You will likely win. Your 14th amendment rights as well as others are being violated...Unfortunately, without suing the board, there is little recourse. I would file a lawsuit even if you do not have a lawyer. Put a case together and do some research. likely they will try to come to some sort of resolution to avoid court.
I have letters from 2 PA State Senators and 2 architects I worked with vouching for my testimony, so what? The Board is under no requirement to accept my witnesses or letters. They can and have simply said, it doesn't count. And that is that.
I would ask this question - How many people out there who have a degree in architecture can't find work in architectural firms or with sole proprietors? I would bet that there are a lot.
I guess I have to wonder, why do people feel the need to lie about their experience to take a test that they have little hope to pass if they don't have the kind of experience it takes to pass the test? If they haven't worked in an office or with a licensed architect and Don't have documented completion of IDP ( I have documentation of IDP completion )
Personal letters from State senators don't mean sh-t when it comes to the day to day regulatory operations of the board. The Senators do not have a regulatory role over the day to day administration of licensing. It's just lip service. They are just two citizen at that point. As a matter of fact, individual board members of the licensing boards aren't even appointed by the senators. They are appointed by the governor (the executive branch of the state much like the president of the united states).
If it was the governor, it would have more weight because the governor can appoint and even unappoint them (to reverse the appointment).
jal-x
I'm a tad sensitive so don't take this the wrong way but I don't need sarcasm, I really do need help.
Who is going to prove if a supervisor is lying?! How is someone going to verify what any supervisor says what anyone did or didn't do?
You through evidence and other third party who are considered strong references such as the licensed contractor and the building official as well as others who were familiar.
Otherwise, the saying is.... YOUR SHIT OUT OF LUCK. GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON.
The world isn't fair. So suck it up. Find another state to pursue licensure that won't be such a dick to you.
Unless you have the money and 20 years of lawsuit and appeals to pursue a lawsuit path, then I would recommend, find an path of less resistance. There maybe a board member or a multiple board members on the board that doesn't like you and/or what you represent.
its criminal to jack an Ando thread! which makes me wonder, do you have a criminal record? thats enough to NOT give you the opportunity or the license.
"There maybe a board member or a multiple board members on the board that doesn't like you and/or what you represent."
DING! THE MAN WITH THE LIMP AND HUMP WINS THE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS!
WHAT?! MEMBERS OF THE BOARD MAY NOT LIKE WHAT I REPRESENT?!
NO $HIT SHERLOCK! YOU JUST NOW FIGURED THAT ONE OUT?! MAN YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY A BUILDING DESIGNER!!!!
Just teasing Richard.
But seriously, that IS the whole crux of it. The ARE Test IS the definitive measure of the Minimum requirement. It Qualifies and Quantifies the knowledge, skill & ability that a person has. All the banter, here-say, conjecture is washed away when the test is passed or failed.
Whether any board member likes me has no relevance, as it should be.
This interview with Mr. Ando is awesome. He states "Look at me - I'm doing well... I didn't study architecture in school. I didn't graduate from university." And he is a noted ARCHITECT, to some. To others, so what, everyone is entitled to opinion.
But, to deny me and anyone else because they don't like me or what I represent, well then, there-in is the problem. That isn't just ethically wrong, that is depriving me the ability to do work, and that is illegal.
You WANT the ARE to be the only criteria. I'm not saying I disagree with that - but it's just NOT the only criteria in any state. The other is that you need to either prove that you have a degree, or prove that you have the experience that will be accepted in lieu of it.
There's no law that says you have a right to take a test without proving that you meet the pre-requisites. When I took it I had to prove that I had my degrees and IDP experience - it's not like the board would have accepted just my statement that "I have an M.Arch and I did IDP" - I had to have the transcripts and experience record transmitted. So why should you not have to provide official documentation that you've done what you've done? Nobody's denying you because they don't like you. They're denying you because you won't provide documentation.
Yes, it sucks that some of your employers are unresponsive. That happens though after so many years. Firms shut down, people forget you, or die. Too bad, so sad. You should have documented it all as you worked it.
Vermont: They accept an associate degree as part of the 9 years, and IDP as part of the 9 years - you might still be a few years of documentable experience away from being allowed to get a license there, but they let you start testing when you're within 1 year of being done with IDP, and you're already done IDP, so you might be able to start testing. Why don't you check, and check some other states too.
Any time any one wants to post any comments about the interview with Mr. Ando is free to do so.
Feel free to interject any thoughts about the juxtaposition of the cold sterile walls of concrete with their symmetrically space holes that delineate the minimalist nature of the entire structure. But that the strategically placed wall slits bring warmth and light that contradicts the ambivalence of singular surface the concrete elicits.
We take note that sight and sound is not muffled but enhanced thru the void of color and texture. We actually see the color of the sunlight. We hear the wind as it moves thru the space. WE FEEL that which is so often taken for granted. The concrete doesn't devoid our senses, the concrete enhances our senses and the interaction of the human spirit with the spirit of Nature.
The practice of architecture isn't about what some critic likes or dislikes. If the owner is happy with what the architect AND the owner have collaborated on then the critics can go pound salt. When I do work for my clients, I listen to them and we work collaboratively, not irrespective of one another. I don't listen to the neighbor, or the builder or my priest, I listen to my client, the owner. I make suggestions but in the final review, the owner is who calls the shots.
For any Board member to dislike me or what I represent and then deny me a way for me to make my living by denying me to take the ARE, that is unethical and illegal.
Feel free to comment on Ando. I can multi-task.
If you can't get initial license in Pennsylvania
GET YOUR INITIAL LICENSE IN MARYLAND.
Then you can seek reciprocity. Maryland only 30-50 miles from you at the western end. Then you can reciprocity into Virginia and West Virginia which is not super far away from where you currently live. Then reciprocate back into Pennsylvania after 1-2 years of active practice in Maryland, West Virginia and Virginia. Don't worry about Ohio until you are NCARB certified. The BEA may possibly be accepted but I haven't verified under the current rules. If so, wait until BEA streamlining process. Then you would have four states you can practice in within a two to three hour drive from you vs three. At some point, you would get through Pennsylvania. You don't need 10 years of post-licensure experience if you completed IDP, from what I recall.
You should be able to get reciprocity back into Pennsylvania by reciprocity because if you COMPLETED ALL OF IDP, you would be able to use a buff cover. Even then BEA maybe enough to get you through Pennsylvania but not necessarily required by rule.
NOW.... do it.
Maryland has probably your path of least resistance to initial licensure with ability to do post-licensure experience that maybe necessary to get reciprocity in Pennsylvania.
There are other states but they maybe a little far out there for you but they are valid opinions.
I Did document it. From 2000 to 2013.
I have every project from every architect.
There is even a photo of me performing an existing Condition Survey of one of the biggest projects that I ever worked on - The Wheeling WV Hampton Hotel Expansion.
Gus Kayafas and me did the survey and produced a PowerPoint presentation.
But, my name never appeared anywhere and was never recognized in the documentations. All it says is that it was produced by Kayafas Architects.
So when employers ignore my requests, it is most definitely a way to prevent me from gaining eligibility. That IS unethical. For any Board member to be involved with the process is wrong because they can negate ANY experience just by saying no. They don't need to answer to anyone, there is no oversight. There are 5 architects, 2 public, 1 commissioner & 1 consumer protection. So when the 5 architects say no but the 2 public members say yes, guess what, the architects win all hands, they deal the cards but then they win every hand. What's wrong with that picture?
Richard, you do realize I'm 58. I shouldn't have to wait for the next 5 years to try for reciprocity. What this Board is doing is wrong.
Will,
The exams can be taken in YOUR very city of Pittsburgh whether you get your authorization for examination from Pennsylvania or some other state. You are maybe a 60 minute drive to the state of Maryland.
Pennsylvania isn't going to authorize you to test. Tell me, what exactly did Pennsylvania Board of Architect reject. Maybe, if you apply again for ONE LAST TIME to request being present at the board and information about why you are being rejected as to what their basis is.
If they reject you, take the steps to do what you need to do in licensure in Maryland. NO STATE requires the experience must be attained within that state. There is no residency requirement.
Once licensed in Maryland... which means you have to pass the ARE. You would be no sooner to passing the ARE and being licensed in Pennsylvania than you can be in Maryland. Some states, reciprocity can be just a matter of filling some forms, providing all required documentations, paying some fees and what for approval from the board at the next board meeting they can schedule you in. In which case, it maybe 3-6 months or so after initial licensure. You can in fact do that for more than one state concurrently. You don't have to do it sequentially. You can probably file for reciprocity concurrently with 2-3 of the states I mentioned at the same time and just wait for them to process it.
If you are really good with the exams of the ARE, you can take all of them in a week or two and pass them first time around. Otherwise, it might take a little a tad longer like maybe up to 2-3 years. Just get through the process.
Don't bring age into it. Age should have nothing to do with this.
Will May, you should be having these forms filled out when you collect your final pay check or within a month of last official day of work with that employer.
The reason they aren't responding is they are busy with billable work. They have no legal duty to you the day your employment is terminated.
Sadly, the system is kind of f---ed up. Track down your formal architect supervisor. They may not be working there. They may not be wanting to fill out the forms for their verification of the work experience because your former architect supervisor no longer works there and they can't sign off on it. They can only indicate that you worked there but they can't fill out the information that needs the actual architect supervisor. You need to track that person, that person fills that out then mails it or delivers it to the former employer and then the former employer fills out their part and mails it to the licensing board. You are not suppose to deliver it to the board. It is like official academic transcripts. You aren't suppose to deliver it. You can have a copy of it... fine. The original must go to the board directly from the former employer's office. The lines needing the actual former architect supervisor to fill out and signed, you need to go to that person and then they deliver it to the former employer. Perhaps, you could do the delivery between the parties but ultimately, the former employer needs to mail it in a sealed envelop to the licensing board just like official transcripts directly mailed from the academic institution.
It is how it is done. Applicants are not to be trusted as truthful or honest. To answer that question, why they would..... BECAUSE THEY ARE DESPERATE TO BE LICENSED AS AN ARCHITECT.
The desperation for money and money opportunity that they perceived is there.
He're is the jist, keep doing the same thing and expecting different results for getting authorization to take the ARE or try something different.
Make a choice.
There has been a well over 50 year old basis for not trusting the applicant's word at face value and to verify. Since the very first days of licensing laws, there have been those who lie and are desperate enough to fudge experience, lie, etc. Hell, the shit still happens but to less effect.
.
Will, I am not being sarcastic, I am being serious. You do indeed have constitutional rights to fair and equal treatment. You have a right to due process. You have a property interest in obtaining permission to take the tests (yes, work is property), you have evonomic liberties that are guaranteed under that constitution...You have a right to pursue your livelyhood...the state must not create undue burden unless to protect the hsw of the public...they need to prove that you taking the test is a hsw threat or else you are being denied due process...police powers are limited...state law is not necessarily legal...laws are challenged and shot down all the time on grounds of constitutionality...
A lawyer will be able to get into the details...
talk to Carrera...I believe he mentioned that he did this and was eventually granted permissions.
Yes jla-x.
He has been licensed by experience not by an NAAB accredited degree. I can get credit for existing education in some states such as Washington and other states as well.
I wouldn't recommend pursuing lawsuit on a Constitutional level because you have to file all these forms, every time they are billing you and charging money all the while a lawyer is doing that. Invariably, the licensing board and their back pocket lawyers (office of the state attorney general) will make the process drag on with every tactic in the book to cause more expense. They win by outlasting the wherewithal of individuals who in the U.S. are systematically oppressed economically except a privileged small percentage of the U.S.
To be clear, I wouldn't recommend pursuing such a lawsuit individually because frankly put, Will May is paying through his taxes, the lawyers that will be representing who he is suing. Well everyone of Pennsylvania so they have an endless supply of money. They may have limits in amount of money at once but they have a perpetual income stream.
The only way to nail the issue with strong enough resources is a massive scale class action and also with pressure from the majority of the senators, representatives and the governor. All must be, together applying pressure on the licensing board and even cause to effect legislative changes.
Remember, public officials cares about the interest of the many over the interest of the one or few (EXCEPT for themselves where their self-interest tends to drive their decisions).
I don't think just suing Constitutionally as one individual is going to go anywhere but politically laughed out of court because even Judges of lower courts can be bribed. In addition, they may simply punt it because they don't see it as reaching a nexus for a court case proceeding. Remember, the courts docket every single lawsuit claim. They weed out cases anyway they can to make things manageable for themselves and priority to cases like criminal court cases of murder, rape, theft, etc. Where do you think their priority is going to be?
Frankly, the Constitution case has to be not just about one person and Pennsylvania but a case that is of legal nexus for Federal court involvement. Since the Constitution maybe federal law of a special kind.... they aren't going to preside on a case of the sort unless it prevailing in multiple states and multiple people effected across multiple states. They aren't going to hear such a case if it is just about Will May and Pennsylvania. They would remand it to State courts because they don't value the case warranting the attention and time in a Federal court. Remember, they can only hear so many cases with the money appropriated. There is far more claims and people applying for a lawsuit in the courts than they can feasibly process and handle and even if they do have room to hear a case, are they going to want to hear a case that about one person and a state like this? No. They would punt the case back to state and say, take it to the state due to insufficient nexus (your attorney would know what 'nexus' means in a legal case). In this case, it would be jurisdictional nexus as well as effect nexus. Is this a case of just a person or a public harm? Is this an interstate problem?
To hear such a case, it needs more than Will May and a single state. They will make excuses for not hearing the case unless there is an interstate effect and wide spread harm and then you go after NCARB and all the state boards challenging Constitutionality and you have a class action of 'harmed' plaintiffs (civil law presumingly) across multiple states and the quality of each plaintiff's case should be of merit.
Otherwise you get in a game of hot potato where none of the courts wants anything to do with it.
Re-write:
I don't recommend Will May to singularly sue the Pennsylvania board of Architects over Constitutional matters. It would cost too much money and they would the courts would punt it around like a hot potato because none of the courts including Federal courts would be interested in hearing a case like this over one person in one single state.
Courts tends to filter out cases they will hear and reject the ones they won't for a number of reasons. Only Federal court/U.S. Supreme court would hear U.S. Constitutional cases. They would likely reject the case due to a lack of interstate condition of effect of harmed people warranting the federal courts time.
Carerra did get licensed without a degree.
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