well if this isn't a gay porn discussion then count me out!

"Chivalry is dead, and women killed it."

I like this thread already, and I have to say for me "Fight Club" sums up the modern male condition pretty well. We are continualy de-masculinzied in an increasingly PC world and frankly I don't like it.

As for shaving you back, I've seen beautiful women go out with really gross motherf***ers for exactly that reason, they were gross, manly men and they're usually musicians. I haven't had a haircut in months and all my girlfriends have loved to play with it.

Nice.

I like it when men open doors for me. I always thank them, at the very least, with a smile.

by trying to define men or women in terms of gender, we are only prolonging gender inequality.

no matter which way you look it.

I've found that deep down most women I've dated loved the fact that I held doors, pulled out chairs, let them order first and generally treated them like ladies. That's not saying they should be put on a pedastal, but the are special and shoud be treated as such.

I still play video games, love watching and playing sports, watch South Park and laugh at the fart noise from the ketchup bottle. But on the other hand I will admit to being quite metro. So, I have 2 conditioners, use "product" in my hair when I have it and moisturize my face.

I do find it interesting that there really is no singular view of masculinity. I think it stems from the fact that men have never had to fight for any rights.

Another interesting thing is that a large portion of the gay porn industry are really just gay for pay.

Just my two cents.

I am not sure if the man or woman thread is more embarrassing.

Well, I'm a gay vegetarian who's going to babysit for a female professor's kids on Friday, so I probably shouldn't contribute much.

Oh, and I hold doors open for women and men alike, not as a sign of chivalry, but of courtesy.

Cause only gay men can babysit and only straight men can comment on manhood? Wow, this place is going to hell in a handbag. I really didn't know ya'll were such a closed-minded group.

dude, ain't a thing wrong with being gay and vegetarian. Ive always thought homophobia was a sign of a man who'se still a boy inside and not comofortable enough in his own skin. It takes balls to be gay, especially when everyone around doesn't like you for it.

kablakistan, get a sense of humor

Sorry, it's too real to be funny.

i think your reading too much into it

embarassed? funny? why should we be embarassed to be who we are? gay or straight?

Even if archtopus was serious about not commenting (which I doubt), he censored himself. As many of the threads show, I think the Archinect community is a little left of center. Closed minded is not a term I would use to describe archinect.

Again, just my two cents.

totally agree on "fight club" definition.

i think many were being poisoned by those "he said she said" type of movie telling them Mr. girly sensitive men are good good.

In asia, the level of responsibility defines a man... like supporting the family for an example.

kablahblah hasnt been around much.

not long enough to realize that...well... its a DISCUSSION forum.

simple: you comment if you have something to say.

otherwise: shut the f*ck up.

anyways, i'm a man. i "trim", not shave. i condition, but not everyday. i play with dolls with my girls, but throw the football with them just the same.

oh - i sit crosslegged sometimes. a habitual thing passed down from my dad. if you dont squeeze the almonds, its rather comfortable. and i dont think there should be a "is it ok to _____" for defining what a man or a woman cannot and can do. the idea that you dont need to ever entertain a question like that makes you whatever gender you choose to be.

As it probably should everywhere.

agreed...responsibility for oneself and one's obligations, familial or otherwise, is indeed a good measure of a man, or woman for that matter.

and as for chest hair, while i keep most body hair in check, i let the chest do its own thing, and i'm proud of its lush chestnut hue. tom selleck didn't screw around with that, and he knew exactly what he was doing.

i will say that in this day and age the traditional vehicles for chivalry are often difficult to find, or even carry out. a few weeks ago i was fueling up and saw two women at the gas station changing a flat tire, and having difficulty with it to the point where they asked the clerk inside for help. as i was there behind them in line i wanted to offer assistance, but for some reason, this might be too aggressive. or there's AAA. or some other set of circumstances that exist today that make a suggestion of advice seem like some kind of unwanted advance. so i didn't assist, the various scenarios played out in my head until i was rendered useless...sometimes i feel like a creep when i hold the door for someone, though i still do it.

why the hell does it feel strange to do this shit?

dude, you should've helped with the tire. I might say chivalry is dead, but many women i've come across still like the perks that come with being a chick, ie. guys doing shit for you because you're a chick. You probably could've gotten a number, especially with the Selleck-like chest hair.

Surely its about responsibilities and consequences. Any responsibility has a consequence if you fail to meet it, and any action has a consequence which you must be responsible for. It is the ability to judge the weight of your responsibilites and actions which is the mark of the man.

So you fail to open a door for a women because you are unsure what the reaction is going to be? I say open it and deal with the consequences.

I was raised in West Texas, a place where chivalry is still alive and well, we realize that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina, a hard day's work is the mark of manhood, and men work our tails off so that our wives can stay home with the kids if they are so inclined.

I wear cowboy boots. I use tobacco. I have worked 100+ hour weeks of manual labor. My family has a ranch and a farm, where I learned to hunt and to fish. I like baseball and hockey. I open doors for women. I can put together a pivot sprinkler. I like to rock climb. I love to camp. I can tie 30 kinds of knots. I can start a fire with a flint and my pocket knife which I carry every day. I have a skoal ring in my jeans. I listen to country music. I drive a big truck. I want an even bigger truck. I work on my truck as long as it doesn't involve the engine or the transmission, and that's just because its not worth my time to fix it myself. I drink whiskey straight. I'm not afraid of spiders or snakes.

But the times they are a-changin'. I play golf. I shave daily and get my hair cut once a week. I read GQ. I'm a Texas Conservative who believes the death penalty is wrong. I use "product" in my hair. I can rattle of the names of fashion designers. I have several gay friends, and it doesn't really matter to me that they're gay. I can properly pronounce the French names of perfumes that I buy for my wife on special occasions. I can cook creme brulee. I hate football. I love soccer. I cringe when I hear people say the "n" word or use different names for gays. I'm afraid of wasps. I do all my running in a climate controlled gym. I wear topsiders and pastel polos in the summer time.

see but most of what you guys are saying could be applied to a woman as well - responsibilities, courteousness, even chivalry (sorely depends on the woman)

i see it as a man is closer to "manhood" when he could relate to all the other aspects of humanity - like femininity, childishness, and animalistic behaviour without compromising the strength and integrity involved in being a man.

simple.

Really, at this point aren't the, er, bat+balls really the only thing defining manhood? Men no longer are constrained to only sleep with women, to bring home the bacon, to even eat bacon in the first place, to dress a certain way or like certain sports.... the social definition is so flexible now that the physical definition is all that remains.

^^from a female perspective, so take it with a grain of salt. I always forget that most of the people on here assume that I'm a man.

frech, you should have at least offered to help. If they would have said no, it would have been their own damn problem, but I think you should have at least made yourself available. Who cares what their reaction is? What's the worst that could happen?

whoops...that was before rufull's eloquent response..

Here comes Dick, he's wearing a skirt
Here comes Jane, y'know she's sporting a chain
Same hair, revolution
Same build, evolution
Tomorrow who's gonna fuss

And they love each other so
Androgynous
Closer than you know, love each other so
Androgynous

Don't get him wrong and don't get him mad
He might be a father, but he sure ain't a dad
And she don't need advice that's sent at her
She's happy with the way she looks
She's happy with her gender

Mirror image, see no damage
See no evil at all
Kewpie dolls and urine stalls
Will be laughed at
The way you're laughed at now

Now, something meets boy, and something meets girl
They both look the same
They're overjoyed in this world
Same hair, revolution
Unisex, evolution
Tomorrow who's gonna fuss
And tomorrow Dick is wearing pants
And tomorrow Janie's wearing a dress
Future outcasts and they don't last
And today, the people dress the way that they please
The way they tried to do in the last centuries

I've posted on this here before, and thought about it a lot, partly because my husband's work of the last few yearas has been dealing with issues of "maleness". More on that in a minute.

To me, the things that define "manliness" - as in calling someone a "man" opposed to a boy) are similar to what aspect and diabase posted above: understanding responsibility, both in terms of taking care of one's responsibilities and in taking responsibility for one's actions, not being afraid of hard work, being honest and fair, and not being afraid to love and be loved.

However, while I feel this is a strong definition for what it means to be "A Man", I have a hard time coming up with a parallel definition for "A Woman".

I am angered, especially as the mother of a boy, at how contemporary media portrays "men": in just one example, look at how many commercials show the husband/dad/boyfriend being a complete dope while the woman/mom/girlfriend swoops in and easily solves the problem at hand. Look at how many Tshirts say things like "Girl Power" and "Girls Rock" - if someone did a Tshirt with "Boys Rock" on it, what would the reaction be? Why do we have to empower young girls only through denigrating boys?

(Another commercial, somewhat on topic: the Trojan Condoms pig commercial, on YouTube of course. I see the point, but am on the fence about it nonetheless.)

As I said above, my husband's work has been dealing with some of these questions lately. His website is flash, but go to the body of work under the number 2 and you'll see some of the "Manly Summertime Pursuits" work, including the hotrod grill. As a father of a boy, he is now constantly considering what it means to be a man and to raise a child to be one: is there a conflict in teaching aesthetics, beauty even, to a boy by introducing him to hotrods? Are hotrods "feminine" in their expression of beauty, or is that a "craftsmanlike concern, not (just) aesthetic?

I have lot son this topic, in fact it's easier for me to talk about men than women, but it's late. more tomorrow.

i wouldnt rely on the media to form an opinion,

just sayin.

great point phillipmo. in the era of dan rather and all the "non bias" of CNN or FoxNews, i don't think I want to trust any of those schmucks with influencing my thoughts.

Sounds like every single sitcom on T.V. now, and that makes me angry too. Now I'm not saying men are geniuses and women are dumb, frankly I always liked George Carlin's reasoning: "Men are stupid and women are crazy, and the biggest reason women are crazy is because men are stupid". I'll be the first to admit we can be pretty dumb, but I've never met a totally sane woman and frankly I find the craziness attractive. That might be one of the reasons I find Family Guy funny, because despite Lois's calm outward appearence, she is given to bouts of pure loonacy (see the Christmas episode, season 2, for what i mean).

brian's got some nice work ms. bell. what does it means to be a man and raise one? not sure. i don't have one, but i was raised as one so here it goes on what it means to be a man. to be a man means to listen, to love, and to cherish. it means spending time with the guys and not being made to feel guilty about it. it means to teach, to share, and to guide. it means being there when those closest to him need him. it means working hard when necessary and playing when you can. it means helping out around the house. it means doing the things and saying the things that will put a smile on your partners face. how is this different from being a woman? well, essentially there isn't much difference.

I've been thinking about this for a little while.

I come from a weird hybrid of classes: my father's from a poor, rural family. He's worked mostly manual labour his whole life. My mother comes from European intellectuals - all university educated, and she and both of her siblings are teachers or professors.

I was given a motorcycle on my 8th birthday, and I learned how to rebuild that engine by the time I was 9. I still love getting my hands dirty, and do so on every occasion. I work with two guys who are the same - we make machinery, furniture, do renovations, etc. But we are also all artists, paid for our expertise, attention to aesthetics, etc.

More than anything, I would say that I've been more influenced by my blue collar roots: the working-class belief that boys are tough and should be able to drop a transmission, that we should hold doors open (for everybody, not just women), and we say please and thanks or we get a swat on the back of the head.

But the world I'm entering isn't defined by those same things. Men are expected to dress well. Shoes matter. Men are even supposed to shave and can even wear 'product' in their hair.

I was told by two good friends today that I looked good. They are both female artists/academics, surrounded by fashionistas and hipster boys with waists smaller than one of my legs. I put a bit of an effort into my dress - but not too much - and it paid off. I've always been uncomfortable 'dressing up,' which would for me include a long-sleeved button-up shirt. Shit, I'm not even sure if that's the right word for it.

So I'm in this headspace that conflicts with my previous understandings of myself as a man. For the large majority of my life, I understood men to be tough. My dad can beat up your dad, and I mean it. These are the things that were important growing up. But that's not to say that I wasn't also brought up in an open-minded family that also appreciated the arts to some degree, and I was always encouraged to be my own person. What I'm finding is that I can do and be both. I can replace the shocks on my car on the weekend in my driveway, but I can also clean up, shave my face, and be somewhat comfortable with caring about my appearance. You see, the blue-collared male isn't supposed to care about appearances.

I still hate shaving, and I only do it once or twice a week because I don't have to every day. I wear t-shirts most days, and just this week I bought my first pair of shoes that aren't skateboard shoes in over a decade. I will continue to use clippers to shave my own head, probably for the rest of my life, because there's a part of the 'manly' me that refuses to either pay somebody else to do it, and more importantly, to use something called 'product' anywhere on my body.

I don't know how to end this novel-length post, so I will conclude simply by saying that I'm sure I'm not the only person with such thoughts. There are many factors which influence our perceptions of what it means to be a man, as well as our own perceptions of our own manliness, however defined. This is a great conversation.

ultimately being a man is what is between your legs and if you have a Y chromosome. i think a lot of it just comes down to societal expectations of being a "man" and our own behaviors and preferences. currently i think there's a large range in what is considered "manly" in US culture.

in these times, there's a decreasing amount of social behaviors that distinguish men from women. i read a study where men over a certain age in the US considered washing dishes not to be their task, and this trend decreased with decreasing age. so there are def. shifts in cultural norms and gender expectations from generation to generation.

but i think a lot of confusion inevitably comes down to how we (those of us that are straight) want women to perceive us. and since women have their own individual preferences of "manly behavior" it leaves us with a certain amount of doubt.

i think in the end you have to find a resolution between societal expectations (as a generality) and your own preferences where you're happy with who you are and what you do.

i don't really know how to talk about this more, but i will list some of my behaviors... i just don't know how "manly" they make me.

-if you take me to see ballet, i will fall asleep
-movies with big explosions are highly entertaining
-love my new jack spade bag
-ride a vespa
-can cook a decent meal
-love to surf
-buy designer jeans
-ran track in college
-use "product" in my hair most days
-will leave the dishes in the sink for days
-love watching football on sunday mornings
-love playing sports
-hate the carl's jr. ad that says "if it wasn't for us, some men would starve". wish they would starve.
-love eating red meat. rare.

what does this all make me?

afca - you're so LA!

I wear tight jeans and my sister asks me for clothing advice.

this thread is way too long for me to read. I am surprised there are multiple paragraphs in each post.

You just have to ask a simple question.

"If the gender roles (how ever you define it, and whether you agree with it or not) switched in the United States, or from what ever country you are from, Will you approve of it?"

I think the answer to this question will define what you think a man or a woman is (I don't think your allowed to end a sentence with "is"...right?).
And then you will be surprised that many of us men think the same.

i still have no idea what it means to be a man.

my father is very 'manly' and i never found anything he did or wanted me to do very interesting. i dislike most of the things men are supposed to love.

i grew up with most people assuming i was gay - and chastising/ attacking me for it - so, while i'm not gay, i've had a pretty good experience of how gays are often treated and have built a certain sympathy/empathy toward homosexuality.

i now have a strangely old-school male role: i work a fairly traditional job arrangement, i have a commute, my wife stays with our two daughters while i'm at work and has recently begun cooking all of our meals and doing most of the housework while i'm not home. ...and i'm somewhat uncomfortable with all of this.

i still have no idea what it means to be a man.

steven, that is an interesting story. i have a few friends who I swear are gay but will never come out of the closet because of social and familial pressures. one friend is into country music, beer, sports, is a republican, and will probably end up with wife and kids. but to me, if he grew up in today's urban environment where homosexuality is somewhat tolerated, then he would definitely live a different lifestyle. with that said, i don't think that he is unhappy. he is, in fact, very happy with his life and that's all that really matters, right?

the therapists have a bright future.

I'm not sure if I agree with all of this, but there are some interesting observations about gender roles in the 21st century in this article from last week's New Yorker. Here's an excerpt:

A Fine Romance

His beard is haphazard and unintentional, and he dresses in sweats, or in shorts and a T-shirt or with his shirt hanging out like the tongue of a Labrador retriever. He’s about thirty, though he may be younger, and he spends a lot of time with friends who are like him, only more so—sweet-natured young men of foul mouth, odd hair, and wanker-mag reading habits. When he’s with them, punched beer cans and bongs of various sizes lie around like spent shells; alone, and walrus-heavy on his couch, he watches football, basketball, or baseball on television, or spends time memorializing his youth—archiving old movies, games, and jokes. Like his ancestors in the sixties, he’s anti-corporate, but he’s not bohemian (his culture is pop). He’s more like a sullen back-of-the-classroom guy, who breaks into brilliant tirades only when he feels like it. He may run a used-record store, or conduct sightseeing tours with a non-stop line of patter, or feed animals who then high-five him with their flippers, or teach in a school where he can be friends with all the kids, or design an Internet site that no one needs. Whatever he does, he hardly breaks a sweat and sometimes he does nothing at all.

He may not have a girlfriend, but he certainly likes girls—he’s even, in some cases, a hetero blade, scoring with tourists or love-hungry single mothers. But if he does have a girlfriend she works hard. Usually, she’s the same age as he is but seems older, as if the disparity between boys and girls in ninth grade had been recapitulated fifteen years later. She dresses in Donna Karan or Ralph Lauren or the like; she’s a corporate executive, or a lawyer, or works in TV, public relations, or an art gallery. She’s good-tempered, honest, great-looking, and serious. She wants to “get to the next stage of life”—settle down, marry, maybe have children. Apart from getting on with it, however, she doesn’t have an idea in her head, and she’s not the one who makes the jokes.

When she breaks up with him, he talks his situation over with his hopeless pals, who give him bits of misogynist advice. Suddenly, it’s the end of youth for him. It’s a crisis for her, too, and they can get back together only if both undertake some drastic alteration: he must act responsibly (get a job, take care of a kid), and she has to do something crazy (run across a baseball field during a game, tell a joke). He has to shape up, and she has to loosen up.

There they are, the young man and young woman of the dominant romantic-comedy trend of the past several years—the slovenly hipster and the female straight arrow. The movies form a genre of sorts: the slacker-striver romance. Stephen Frears’s “High Fidelity” (2000), which transferred Nick Hornby’s novel from London to Chicago, may not have been the first, but it set the tone and established the self-dramatizing underachiever as hero. Hornby’s guy-centered material also inspired “About a Boy” and “Fever Pitch.” Others in this group include “Old School,” “Big Daddy,” “50 First Dates,” “Shallow Hal,” “School of Rock,” “Failure to Launch,” “You, Me and Dupree,” “Wedding Crashers,” “The Break-Up,” and—this summer’s hit—“Knocked Up.” In these movies, the men are played by Vince Vaughn, Owen Wilson, Adam Sandler, John Cusack, Jimmy Fallon, Matthew McConaughey, Jack Black, Hugh Grant, and Seth Rogen; the women by Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Aniston, Kate Hudson, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Katherine Heigl. For almost a decade, Hollywood has pulled jokes and romance out of the struggle between male infantilism and female ambition.

there's nothing more difficult, humbling, and funny than trying to piss with an erection...that probably sums up my contribution to "man thread"

Well Puddles, If you can piss with an erection and land it all in the toilet (not on the seat), then your a real man.

it pisses me off when i hold a door open for someone and they don't even says thanks. next time biotch, i'll slam it in your face....

you are welcome

i find nothing wrong with shaving chest hair and whatnot, if my girlfriend loves it then there is no reason to call it "non manly"

puddles if that condition persists for four hours call a doctor immediately.

two stories of what it means to be a man in seattle:

i once told a woman that i love to garden. she told me that i was the only man that she knew that loved gardening who was not gay. come to seattle honey.

opening doors for women in almost a prerequisite here. my wife finally got tired of reaching for a door when she was with men, only to have an awkward interation of who will get the door. now she rarely reaches for a door when with men.

regarding fight club masculinity and aimless men: this is why i think golf has become so popular. just a more genteel and wussified version of the social hierarchy in a fight club.

I don't particularly like holding doors. I don't feel like many people appreciate it which in turn makes me feel a little humiliated when doing it.

if she doesnt say thank you, take her back and get a refund from wherever you bought her.

it's strange that this thread turned into a discussion about holding doors. a real man to me is one that puts his family before anything else.

i don't have a family