There's a couple of reasons I wanted to start this topic....
I've been thinking a lot about women in America lately and how we still have to fight for what seem to be basic rights for women in other countries. Prompted by an article in Newsweek that rationalist posted the other day, and anarticle on MSN that I almost missed about Swedish women and how good they have it.....issues like maternity leave and women's health care have really been weighing me down.
Another thing is that I feel like we are seeing a "resurgance" of instances of violence against women....like the guy in Atlanta that shot his pregnant girlfriend to death earlier this year.....the guy that stalked and ultimately murdered his girlfriend at UW....or the sharp-shooter guy in Wyoming that killed his wife the other day....am I just imagining things? Some of these events could have been prevented if there were a better system in place to prevent stalkers or if women weren't afraid to get help.
Have we actually made any progress from the 60's "feminist revolution"? Does anyone else think that we are regressing?
Am I wrong to think that women should get a mandatory minimum 3-month paid maternity leave, without having to apply for disability insurance?
Its probly just reported more now. But on the issue of pay, there is no reason women should get less than men in almost all jobs ( im omitting the rare job that is based on brute forse or strength of which most men would make it either) It is a strange phenomenon - it may be just a slow process of elvating the pay level. But to say going backwards Im not sure.
Related though, I want to know why of 5 woman 27-30 I know, 3 have fake breast? Why does educated and beautiful woman find it nessessary to get implants? Its become commonplace. This scares me, I dont know why but it does. There may be a phsycological shift occurring but Im a man so I really dont get.
I don't know that a hasband shooting his wife is necesarily "violence against women." Yes, the victims were women, but were they shot because they were women, because they were there, because of their personality? Am I making any sense?
I do think our maternity leave sytem is wanting, and maybe thats only because I want to take off a year, and get paid, and keep my insurance, but who wouldn't. I think if we did this, though, it would be unfair to fathers. Yes, they can take "paternity" leave, but if they also got full pay and benifits for a year, like I would want, then what kind of taxes would we have to instate, and do you think people would start having more children just to get paid yearlong vacations? Heck, if I could stand it, which I couldn't, but I would have kid after kid, one year apart, so I could get paid and never work. Wait, isnt that what our Welfare system is?
Ya Im in Chicago - I bet 30%-40% girls i know personally have fake boobs. Im not talking work aquaintances. Its mind bogeling to me because it seems uneeded and frankly dangerous. Maybe these young ladies should worry more about improving their cohort's position in the workplace rather than falling victim to some sort of silent cultural image cancer. Oddly - it seems to be around 27 - 30 when they go for the boobs. When they were 18-22 these same girls would have thought this to be an example of objectification, etc. What changes in a woman's mind in this span of years? Mystery to me.
I wondered that about stairstep kids, too Sarah. But I guess since the year is divided between the couple (60 days for mom, 60 days for dad, the rest split however) in Sweden, the system probably works because nobody actually takes a full year- the woman only gets 10 months max, because of the mandated 60 days for the dad. So most likely it's closer to six months each when you really work it out.
I think the prevalance of violence towards women also has to do with higher instances of aggression in men. Do you ever hear about a woman killing her husband? It's very, very rare compared with a man killing his wife. Men commit violent crime at a statistically higher rate, and since a spouse is one of the prime targets for violence from either sex (ex: golfer the other week who showed up to a competition after being beaten by his wife), the instance of violence towards women seems higher as a result. Did I say that in a way that makes any sense?
evilp, on the fake boobs, the fact is that more attractive women get paid more, and are more likely to get hired in the first place. Combine this with the age range you're talking about, at which many women have had kids and are feeling particularly dumpy, and I can imagine it. 30-40% frankly sounds like you're exaggerating, or hang out with a lot of strippers, but I can see how there would be a peak at that age range.
DubK, I think we are backtracking a bit, or at least not advancing the cause of equality as we should. Do you suppose the other Dubyuh and everything and everyone he represents has something to do with it? There is a certain nostalgia for a society that never exactly existed behind their policies and speeches, one in which women knew their place. That place is optimized by your Newsweek article, "Why aren't you pregnant yet?"
You mentioned war-weariness in the "build it bigger" thread. I see a connection. 3630 combat deaths and between 22,000 and 100,000 (!) american wounded is only the most obvious consequence of a war who's expressed goal was to open new markets for american goods...but I'm ranting.
Shouldn't Vado post some borderline inappropriate video link by now?
for carrying my devil spawn for 9 months, 3 months paid vacation is the least I can do. I do find it strange that one has to apply for it - shouldn't be difficult everyone knows you are pregnant.
also I think they should openly give Paternal leave as well - keep the families together. If not they only serve to belittle the father's contribution in children's lives <- sorry to sound so bitter
I guess part of me also thinks, why should the government (you guys' tax dollars) or my employer pay me to be off work with my kid. Why would they owe it to me? I think they should hold the job for me, but not actually pay me for not working. Again, this does suck cause I want to stay home for a year, but it is silly to ask someone else to foot the bill.
And I think the implants at thirty has more to do with gravity and disposable income than mind set.
I dont know anyone under 30 who has a kid or could afford one -
wait I do know a guy who has one hes 31 and shes 29 and it was a hook up turned instant family - but its rare. My sister had kids in her 20's but her husband was highly paid finance guy - its like kids are for the rich now. Or the poor. But not the middle, at least not the smae timeframe it used to be. my parents started at 18 - but the flipsdie is theyre early 50's, no kids to pay for - at their peak earning years.
are you sure that violence against women is increasing? most forms of crime are on the decrease. sometimes a few high profile cases can skew the true picture.
the scandinavian countries are way ahead on most social issues. apart from that, north america does really well. britain and continental europe are quite sexist. and the rest of the world is awful.
i personally don't understand the fake boobs thing. real ones, no matter the size, always look better.
Sarah, I think my issue is not with if we can ask someone else to foot the bill for my maternity leave....my issue is that we know it can be done, and is being done, but that it's not available to us in America. We talk a big game about women's equality in this country but to be equal, we'd need to give mothers and fathers both time off with their children, which I agree with..... However the system in which we operate not only discourages that, they disallow it.
It strikes me as funny that so much attention is paid to children this and children that in the US....but for something as simple as letting a parent have extremely important first months with their baby, it's hard as hell.
Another thing is that I think that our tax dollars could be a lot more useful if they weren't busy being misappropriated right now, but that's a topic for another thread....
I have learned that after having kids, the breast is forever chanegd, and will never be perky again, whether you breast feed or not, doesnt matter. They become stretched and saggy. Fake ones will forever be perky, and that keeps a woman looking younger. So I can see the draw. I'm not into body modification of any kind, so mine will just be saggy I guess, but thats why underwire was invented.
re: boobs -
the last person i talked to about getting a boob job was a tranny. i do not personally know any women with fake tits.
re: progress since the 60's
there has been enormous amounts of progress, even if it doesn't seem so all the time. but the "feminist revolution" is nowhere near close to being over. i work in a 14 person office where 6 of us are women, and it is totally awesome. this feels like progress to me. on the flipside it is my opinion mainstream media continues objectifies human bodies to sell products.
don't mean to start a brawl, but isn't part of the problem?
the first comment in this thread instantly turns to fake breasts...several of the subsequent comments follow. If your first thought in a discussion about women's rights/liberation turns to silicone, I'm not so sure how far anyone has come.
excellent point, WTD. Fits right in with what I was saying about better looking women getting paid more. No, it's not in your job description that you have to look great, but it sure as hell helps.
i think that this is a topic that reeks of relativitism towards an individual's circumstances. for instance, i've personally had something like nine jobs in the past eight years and can only think of two instances where i was under the direct supervision of men. everything other time i had a woman boss and twice those women were actually younger than me. nearly every office that i have been in has been nearly 50/50 split on gender and in one office the women out numbered the men by a count of eight to three. admittedly, at the level of owership it has been dominated by men but these are also old men and i believe that it's only a matter of time before this changes too.
i'm not sure about the breast implant business alluded too above but i don't suspect that any of the women that i know have them. i do, however, know of plenty of women who seem to be workaholics and overly invested in their careers on an emtional level. i'm perpetually amazed by how dominated so many of them seem to be by their jobs. seems like they always want to work extra hours and even when away from the office, reluctant to let go off business concerns.
anyhow, those are just my observations. but i think that they are also indicative of an american culture that seems to overly driven by career/work and money concerns. maternity leave believe it or not is just as much a concern for men (fathers) as it can be for women but it our culture of competition we have little time for non-billable hours.
as for a more ideal situation, skip sweden and look at the maternity/paternity leave options in norway. they practically are paid to have children...but given the country's vast wealth from the north sea oil fields they can actually afford to foot the bill. oh, and of course the norwegians have resorted to drastic measures to halt recent population decline.
That is a topic for another thread, but our tax dollars will always be "misappropriated."
I don't know how they do the maternity thing in Sweden, but I'm sure their taxes are thousands higher than ours. LBell would flip if they went up any more! I also wonder if they have such a rift between the classes that we have. Mainly I am speaking of the poor and middle class. But if we had mandatory paid leave for all, then what of the 17 y.o. working at McDs, or something like that? We have to draw that line somewhere. It seems that having a job with benefits could be a starting point, but even that could get hazzy. What I really wish is that I could keep my insurance coverage while being off for a year. It would be tough to do without my income, but I could make that work, the insurance is a must for both me and my child-to-come.
I guess part of me is just selfish. I don't want to spend my hard earned money on my own kid, much less somebody I dont even know.
I mean we can discuss fake boobs all day...personally, i'm all for whatever you want to do to your body...but it kinda sadens me that this thread went to the physical so quickly. Especially in such "a man's game" like architecture, there is so much more to talk about in respect to women's progress. White, middle-class men still have most of the control...where are women in this?
What? You mean women are just objects? The mainstream media had me CONVINCED! Sarah, why should women be paid when they're on maternity leave? Women are only vessels to bring new consumers into the world. Employers pay for unemployment insurance, pitch in for health insurance, pays me to sit at home sick, and so forth. The government needs to insure that families with two incomes will not be financially penalized for having children.
I think the female workaholic thing stems from, well I don''t know how to say this without sounding sexist, but it is as if the 'family' has been replaced by work. I don't think many woman are programed to think solely of themselves. Most of us are programmed to be givers/caretakers, and if there is no family, or something else is the passion, then the women become caretakers of said passion (job). Men seem to be better at splitting/compartmentalising work and home. Women almost always give fully of themselves, its just how we're made.
SH, I think the last line clears up their sarcasm...I hope... The government needs to insure that families with two incomes will not be financially penalized for having children.
Oh, that's my fault. I'm horribly "multi-tasking." The first part, about women as objects, is satire. The media does perpetuate the notion that women are objects. Their function in life is a) sexual beings and b) as vessels for the birth of new consumers. Satire! Sorry.
Ok, in that case, replace government with 'I', or 'we' because thats what it boils down to.
I am not comfortable asking you to pay for my child, I don't see why you should. I know I am coming off really callous, but I'm not trying to. I feel that having a child is a descision that is made, and should accordingly be planned for. Mine wasn't expected, but we are doing what is necessary to prepare for it. Couples who choose not to have children shouldn't be penalized either, so what do you do with them? Also, I don't think that couples who do have chidlren should be rewarded. I feel like I'm rambling again, I've lost my point.
"its just how we're made" - is a dangerous phrase no matter how correct it is. That kind of statement is what has justified women getting paid less and men being violent. So are we born equal or not?
yeah, philarch, because then you can get into nature vs. nurture. Are we "just made" that way, or are we conditioned to be that way. Interesting point and I agree that our (women's) acceptance of that statement reflects how lack of progress is as much our responsibility.
we are different- obviously. There is a difference between equal and the same. Equal- speaks to value and opportunity...this we should be.
In regards to mandatory minimum 3-month paid maternity leave, it sounds like a great idea, but I couldn't imagine the economic strain it would cause on small businesses. I think having the mandatory 3-month paid maternity leave would actually hurt women in the long run (especially architecture). The goal is to have more women represented in all fields but if someone was trying to build a firm could you afford to take a 3 month hit paying someone without any billable from them? Suddenly we would be back in the sixties discriminating against women but this time it wouldn’t be a sexist reason but an economic reason.
If I understand correctly the feminist revolution was about equality. I don’t see how a woman receiving additional time off is equality.
The "resurgence" of instances of violence against women may be true but I don't think it's just against women. The civilized world is obsessed with all kinds of violence. Reality TV gets its highest ratings when there's a fight, hottest video games are not about being a hero but how many people can you kill or assault, Video websites are swamped with all kinds of domestic fights and unfortunately its not only a U.S. problem but an international problem. I believe this might be the root to the increase in extreme domestic violence.
By the way if any women are in the Brooklyn area or moving there soon. My wife and I found a great service www.RightRides.org It’s a volunteer program that gives women a free ride home. It’s all run on volunteers and the next orientation is on August 2nd if anyone wants to volunteer (Joanna and I will both be there on the 2nd).
Yeah SH is right, there is a difference between equal and same in this context. My rhetoric question was vague too considering that "equality" is a very difficult thing to define in terms of gender (among other things). It sounds much simpler than it really is.
don't shoot me..but is 3 month maternity leave an equality issue?
if anything it's about americans and vacation time (or non-working
time if you prefer). americans are way behind europe when it
comes to this..but it effects both men and women.
do men get paid leave for things such as prostrate cancer or other
types of forced leaves? i can't imagine i'd be paid if i had to be
out for say a broken wrist or something similar...(i'm not trying to
compare this to pregnancy obviously, but what do men have really
that would put them out of the office for that long?)
Ok, just so people don't think I am ignoring this, cause I am loving how civilized this thread is, but I am going home to land of no internet, and won't be back till monday.
I don't think there would be much "economic strain" if maternity leave were govn't subsidized.
And Sarah, I keep on forgetting that the government is suppose to be "we." Usually it represents "they," "their" interests versus "ours." "Those with money" versus "us who need protection and help."
i guess another question would be why don't men get maternity
leave? during the first formative days/months isn't it almost
equally important for the father to be there as well? the mother
obviously is more important as far as food and probably love..
but does a child sense that the father isn't there?
tumbles.....yes. There is no standard for women on maternity leave in this country, thus the disability insurance. I just learned this recently from some pregnant friends. There is something called FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) but I'm not sure what it does....all I know is that a good friend of mine is having to fight to get more than 6 weeks off.
I didn't mean to turn the thread into a referendum on health insurance, because I think health insurance should be socialized, and that belongs on the SiCKO thread.
What I meant is that, women CAN have it all....but somehow we're missing the bus. puddles brought up a great point, why are so many women workaholics? I think the answer is because that women try so hard to be considered equal to their male counterparts that they overcompensate.....I almost wonder if some women work extra hard as if to say, "see, I can work hard too, so what if I choose to have a family, I deserve to be paid just like the men"
I just checked our company benefits and now I'm surprised - They have changed the policy so that the wording is "primary care-giver" meaning it could be either one.
and i know as far as i'm concerned i don't see the sex of an
individual anymore...i look at talent and ability...i respect
or don't respect fellow coworkers on that basis not because
they're male or female..
American woman.....
There's a couple of reasons I wanted to start this topic....
I've been thinking a lot about women in America lately and how we still have to fight for what seem to be basic rights for women in other countries. Prompted by an article in Newsweek that rationalist posted the other day, and anarticle on MSN that I almost missed about Swedish women and how good they have it.....issues like maternity leave and women's health care have really been weighing me down.
Another thing is that I feel like we are seeing a "resurgance" of instances of violence against women....like the guy in Atlanta that shot his pregnant girlfriend to death earlier this year.....the guy that stalked and ultimately murdered his girlfriend at UW....or the sharp-shooter guy in Wyoming that killed his wife the other day....am I just imagining things? Some of these events could have been prevented if there were a better system in place to prevent stalkers or if women weren't afraid to get help.
Have we actually made any progress from the 60's "feminist revolution"? Does anyone else think that we are regressing?
Am I wrong to think that women should get a mandatory minimum 3-month paid maternity leave, without having to apply for disability insurance?
Its probly just reported more now. But on the issue of pay, there is no reason women should get less than men in almost all jobs ( im omitting the rare job that is based on brute forse or strength of which most men would make it either) It is a strange phenomenon - it may be just a slow process of elvating the pay level. But to say going backwards Im not sure.
Related though, I want to know why of 5 woman 27-30 I know, 3 have fake breast? Why does educated and beautiful woman find it nessessary to get implants? Its become commonplace. This scares me, I dont know why but it does. There may be a phsycological shift occurring but Im a man so I really dont get.
Egads. Where in the world are you, evilp? Aren't you in Chicago? I don't know anyone with fake boobs.
I don't know that a hasband shooting his wife is necesarily "violence against women." Yes, the victims were women, but were they shot because they were women, because they were there, because of their personality? Am I making any sense?
I do think our maternity leave sytem is wanting, and maybe thats only because I want to take off a year, and get paid, and keep my insurance, but who wouldn't. I think if we did this, though, it would be unfair to fathers. Yes, they can take "paternity" leave, but if they also got full pay and benifits for a year, like I would want, then what kind of taxes would we have to instate, and do you think people would start having more children just to get paid yearlong vacations? Heck, if I could stand it, which I couldn't, but I would have kid after kid, one year apart, so I could get paid and never work. Wait, isnt that what our Welfare system is?
Ya Im in Chicago - I bet 30%-40% girls i know personally have fake boobs. Im not talking work aquaintances. Its mind bogeling to me because it seems uneeded and frankly dangerous. Maybe these young ladies should worry more about improving their cohort's position in the workplace rather than falling victim to some sort of silent cultural image cancer. Oddly - it seems to be around 27 - 30 when they go for the boobs. When they were 18-22 these same girls would have thought this to be an example of objectification, etc. What changes in a woman's mind in this span of years? Mystery to me.
I wondered that about stairstep kids, too Sarah. But I guess since the year is divided between the couple (60 days for mom, 60 days for dad, the rest split however) in Sweden, the system probably works because nobody actually takes a full year- the woman only gets 10 months max, because of the mandated 60 days for the dad. So most likely it's closer to six months each when you really work it out.
I think the prevalance of violence towards women also has to do with higher instances of aggression in men. Do you ever hear about a woman killing her husband? It's very, very rare compared with a man killing his wife. Men commit violent crime at a statistically higher rate, and since a spouse is one of the prime targets for violence from either sex (ex: golfer the other week who showed up to a competition after being beaten by his wife), the instance of violence towards women seems higher as a result. Did I say that in a way that makes any sense?
evilp, on the fake boobs, the fact is that more attractive women get paid more, and are more likely to get hired in the first place. Combine this with the age range you're talking about, at which many women have had kids and are feeling particularly dumpy, and I can imagine it. 30-40% frankly sounds like you're exaggerating, or hang out with a lot of strippers, but I can see how there would be a peak at that age range.
DubK, I think we are backtracking a bit, or at least not advancing the cause of equality as we should. Do you suppose the other Dubyuh and everything and everyone he represents has something to do with it? There is a certain nostalgia for a society that never exactly existed behind their policies and speeches, one in which women knew their place. That place is optimized by your Newsweek article, "Why aren't you pregnant yet?"
You mentioned war-weariness in the "build it bigger" thread. I see a connection. 3630 combat deaths and between 22,000 and 100,000 (!) american wounded is only the most obvious consequence of a war who's expressed goal was to open new markets for american goods...but I'm ranting.
Shouldn't Vado post some borderline inappropriate video link by now?
It's only the 8th post. Usually he waits until about 20 or so to do that :-P
...stay away from me
for carrying my devil spawn for 9 months, 3 months paid vacation is the least I can do. I do find it strange that one has to apply for it - shouldn't be difficult everyone knows you are pregnant.
also I think they should openly give Paternal leave as well - keep the families together. If not they only serve to belittle the father's contribution in children's lives <- sorry to sound so bitter
I guess part of me also thinks, why should the government (you guys' tax dollars) or my employer pay me to be off work with my kid. Why would they owe it to me? I think they should hold the job for me, but not actually pay me for not working. Again, this does suck cause I want to stay home for a year, but it is silly to ask someone else to foot the bill.
And I think the implants at thirty has more to do with gravity and disposable income than mind set.
I dont know anyone under 30 who has a kid or could afford one -
wait I do know a guy who has one hes 31 and shes 29 and it was a hook up turned instant family - but its rare. My sister had kids in her 20's but her husband was highly paid finance guy - its like kids are for the rich now. Or the poor. But not the middle, at least not the smae timeframe it used to be. my parents started at 18 - but the flipsdie is theyre early 50's, no kids to pay for - at their peak earning years.
are you sure that violence against women is increasing? most forms of crime are on the decrease. sometimes a few high profile cases can skew the true picture.
the scandinavian countries are way ahead on most social issues. apart from that, north america does really well. britain and continental europe are quite sexist. and the rest of the world is awful.
i personally don't understand the fake boobs thing. real ones, no matter the size, always look better.
graham
Sarah, I think my issue is not with if we can ask someone else to foot the bill for my maternity leave....my issue is that we know it can be done, and is being done, but that it's not available to us in America. We talk a big game about women's equality in this country but to be equal, we'd need to give mothers and fathers both time off with their children, which I agree with..... However the system in which we operate not only discourages that, they disallow it.
It strikes me as funny that so much attention is paid to children this and children that in the US....but for something as simple as letting a parent have extremely important first months with their baby, it's hard as hell.
Another thing is that I think that our tax dollars could be a lot more useful if they weren't busy being misappropriated right now, but that's a topic for another thread....
I have learned that after having kids, the breast is forever chanegd, and will never be perky again, whether you breast feed or not, doesnt matter. They become stretched and saggy. Fake ones will forever be perky, and that keeps a woman looking younger. So I can see the draw. I'm not into body modification of any kind, so mine will just be saggy I guess, but thats why underwire was invented.
graham, to be honest, I'm not sure. It might just be that I'm noticing it more, and I tend to turn small trends into "big picture" assessments.
re: boobs -
the last person i talked to about getting a boob job was a tranny. i do not personally know any women with fake tits.
re: progress since the 60's
there has been enormous amounts of progress, even if it doesn't seem so all the time. but the "feminist revolution" is nowhere near close to being over. i work in a 14 person office where 6 of us are women, and it is totally awesome. this feels like progress to me. on the flipside it is my opinion mainstream media continues objectifies human bodies to sell products.
don't mean to start a brawl, but isn't part of the problem?
the first comment in this thread instantly turns to fake breasts...several of the subsequent comments follow. If your first thought in a discussion about women's rights/liberation turns to silicone, I'm not so sure how far anyone has come.
err...isn't this part of the problem...
excellent point, WTD. Fits right in with what I was saying about better looking women getting paid more. No, it's not in your job description that you have to look great, but it sure as hell helps.
i think that this is a topic that reeks of relativitism towards an individual's circumstances. for instance, i've personally had something like nine jobs in the past eight years and can only think of two instances where i was under the direct supervision of men. everything other time i had a woman boss and twice those women were actually younger than me. nearly every office that i have been in has been nearly 50/50 split on gender and in one office the women out numbered the men by a count of eight to three. admittedly, at the level of owership it has been dominated by men but these are also old men and i believe that it's only a matter of time before this changes too.
i'm not sure about the breast implant business alluded too above but i don't suspect that any of the women that i know have them. i do, however, know of plenty of women who seem to be workaholics and overly invested in their careers on an emtional level. i'm perpetually amazed by how dominated so many of them seem to be by their jobs. seems like they always want to work extra hours and even when away from the office, reluctant to let go off business concerns.
anyhow, those are just my observations. but i think that they are also indicative of an american culture that seems to overly driven by career/work and money concerns. maternity leave believe it or not is just as much a concern for men (fathers) as it can be for women but it our culture of competition we have little time for non-billable hours.
as for a more ideal situation, skip sweden and look at the maternity/paternity leave options in norway. they practically are paid to have children...but given the country's vast wealth from the north sea oil fields they can actually afford to foot the bill. oh, and of course the norwegians have resorted to drastic measures to halt recent population decline.
That is a topic for another thread, but our tax dollars will always be "misappropriated."
I don't know how they do the maternity thing in Sweden, but I'm sure their taxes are thousands higher than ours. LBell would flip if they went up any more! I also wonder if they have such a rift between the classes that we have. Mainly I am speaking of the poor and middle class. But if we had mandatory paid leave for all, then what of the 17 y.o. working at McDs, or something like that? We have to draw that line somewhere. It seems that having a job with benefits could be a starting point, but even that could get hazzy. What I really wish is that I could keep my insurance coverage while being off for a year. It would be tough to do without my income, but I could make that work, the insurance is a must for both me and my child-to-come.
I guess part of me is just selfish. I don't want to spend my hard earned money on my own kid, much less somebody I dont even know.
I mean we can discuss fake boobs all day...personally, i'm all for whatever you want to do to your body...but it kinda sadens me that this thread went to the physical so quickly. Especially in such "a man's game" like architecture, there is so much more to talk about in respect to women's progress. White, middle-class men still have most of the control...where are women in this?
<<<insert last comment under rationalists post
damnit...meant saddens
What? You mean women are just objects? The mainstream media had me CONVINCED! Sarah, why should women be paid when they're on maternity leave? Women are only vessels to bring new consumers into the world. Employers pay for unemployment insurance, pitch in for health insurance, pays me to sit at home sick, and so forth. The government needs to insure that families with two incomes will not be financially penalized for having children.
I think the female workaholic thing stems from, well I don''t know how to say this without sounding sexist, but it is as if the 'family' has been replaced by work. I don't think many woman are programed to think solely of themselves. Most of us are programmed to be givers/caretakers, and if there is no family, or something else is the passion, then the women become caretakers of said passion (job). Men seem to be better at splitting/compartmentalising work and home. Women almost always give fully of themselves, its just how we're made.
Liebchen, I am having trouble reading your post. I can't tell your intentions, so I am not sure how to respond. Damn internet.
SH, I think the last line clears up their sarcasm...I hope...
The government needs to insure that families with two incomes will not be financially penalized for having children.
Oh, that's my fault. I'm horribly "multi-tasking." The first part, about women as objects, is satire. The media does perpetuate the notion that women are objects. Their function in life is a) sexual beings and b) as vessels for the birth of new consumers. Satire! Sorry.
Ok, in that case, replace government with 'I', or 'we' because thats what it boils down to.
I am not comfortable asking you to pay for my child, I don't see why you should. I know I am coming off really callous, but I'm not trying to. I feel that having a child is a descision that is made, and should accordingly be planned for. Mine wasn't expected, but we are doing what is necessary to prepare for it. Couples who choose not to have children shouldn't be penalized either, so what do you do with them? Also, I don't think that couples who do have chidlren should be rewarded. I feel like I'm rambling again, I've lost my point.
"its just how we're made" - is a dangerous phrase no matter how correct it is. That kind of statement is what has justified women getting paid less and men being violent. So are we born equal or not?
i'm going to go straight up and say that it is incorrect.
we do not come out of a factory. and we are all different.
Equal, but not same. Does that make sense? I have breasts, men do not. We are made differently, but that has no bearing on equality.
yeah, philarch, because then you can get into nature vs. nurture. Are we "just made" that way, or are we conditioned to be that way. Interesting point and I agree that our (women's) acceptance of that statement reflects how lack of progress is as much our responsibility.
we are different- obviously. There is a difference between equal and the same. Equal- speaks to value and opportunity...this we should be.
In regards to mandatory minimum 3-month paid maternity leave, it sounds like a great idea, but I couldn't imagine the economic strain it would cause on small businesses. I think having the mandatory 3-month paid maternity leave would actually hurt women in the long run (especially architecture). The goal is to have more women represented in all fields but if someone was trying to build a firm could you afford to take a 3 month hit paying someone without any billable from them? Suddenly we would be back in the sixties discriminating against women but this time it wouldn’t be a sexist reason but an economic reason.
If I understand correctly the feminist revolution was about equality. I don’t see how a woman receiving additional time off is equality.
The "resurgence" of instances of violence against women may be true but I don't think it's just against women. The civilized world is obsessed with all kinds of violence. Reality TV gets its highest ratings when there's a fight, hottest video games are not about being a hero but how many people can you kill or assault, Video websites are swamped with all kinds of domestic fights and unfortunately its not only a U.S. problem but an international problem. I believe this might be the root to the increase in extreme domestic violence.
By the way if any women are in the Brooklyn area or moving there soon. My wife and I found a great service www.RightRides.org It’s a volunteer program that gives women a free ride home. It’s all run on volunteers and the next orientation is on August 2nd if anyone wants to volunteer (Joanna and I will both be there on the 2nd).
Yeah SH is right, there is a difference between equal and same in this context. My rhetoric question was vague too considering that "equality" is a very difficult thing to define in terms of gender (among other things). It sounds much simpler than it really is.
don't shoot me..but is 3 month maternity leave an equality issue?
if anything it's about americans and vacation time (or non-working
time if you prefer). americans are way behind europe when it
comes to this..but it effects both men and women.
do men get paid leave for things such as prostrate cancer or other
types of forced leaves? i can't imagine i'd be paid if i had to be
out for say a broken wrist or something similar...(i'm not trying to
compare this to pregnancy obviously, but what do men have really
that would put them out of the office for that long?)
Ok, just so people don't think I am ignoring this, cause I am loving how civilized this thread is, but I am going home to land of no internet, and won't be back till monday.
Have a great weekend!
I don't think there would be much "economic strain" if maternity leave were govn't subsidized.
And Sarah, I keep on forgetting that the government is suppose to be "we." Usually it represents "they," "their" interests versus "ours." "Those with money" versus "us who need protection and help."
i guess another question would be why don't men get maternity
leave? during the first formative days/months isn't it almost
equally important for the father to be there as well? the mother
obviously is more important as far as food and probably love..
but does a child sense that the father isn't there?
i think that any couple who is having a child should each have maternity leave.
SH--I hope you have a great weekend (feeling well!)!!!
From my experience, there is paternity leave. Its just shorter.
more and more companies are offering paternity leave.
http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/8258.html
tumbles.....yes. There is no standard for women on maternity leave in this country, thus the disability insurance. I just learned this recently from some pregnant friends. There is something called FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) but I'm not sure what it does....all I know is that a good friend of mine is having to fight to get more than 6 weeks off.
I didn't mean to turn the thread into a referendum on health insurance, because I think health insurance should be socialized, and that belongs on the SiCKO thread.
What I meant is that, women CAN have it all....but somehow we're missing the bus. puddles brought up a great point, why are so many women workaholics? I think the answer is because that women try so hard to be considered equal to their male counterparts that they overcompensate.....I almost wonder if some women work extra hard as if to say, "see, I can work hard too, so what if I choose to have a family, I deserve to be paid just like the men"
in England, employers are required to give men at least a couple weeks.
I just checked our company benefits and now I'm surprised - They have changed the policy so that the wording is "primary care-giver" meaning it could be either one.
hmm...you know what's interesting,
we go from boobs to babies...is that what's holding us back?
of course...PAternity leave..my apologies.
and i know as far as i'm concerned i don't see the sex of an
individual anymore...i look at talent and ability...i respect
or don't respect fellow coworkers on that basis not because
they're male or female..
i also work at a firm that has 5 women and 4 men.
wtd
the original post was about maternity leave.
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