They expect perfection and the lowest fee you can stomach.
They don't pay and threaten to sue when you stop work.
The negotiation of your fee is never settled as they are always looking for an reason to get you to provide more service for less money by extorting you with some angle.
My question is simple: Can we do something about them? Can we band together and create a place where we can check on them and if one of us needs to risk servicing them they do it with full disclosure and perhaps additional fee.
I see pros and cons on both sides, but my thought is that more information = better decisions.
Selfishly I would love to see these clients finding their fees increasing and fewer and fewer designers willing to service them as their reputations are finally put out in the light of day.
I don't want to whine in a forum about them, I want to do something about them.
(To those of you who would try to nudge us toward proactively avoiding all client conflicts through careful communication and contract negotiation, I'm with you, but we all know it doesn't always work that way and this thread is for those times.)
Any kind of formal "clearing house" is impractical (how would you set it up?) and might even have legal implications. The central problem is supply and demand. Without beating that dead horse again, there will always be people who, because of a lack of work or portfolio padding or just plain naivte, will take what they think is a calculated risk.
The trend toward commoditization is happening all across the economy, and unfortunately all too often architectural service are (sorry to say it) a commodity. When you're selling a commodity the lowest price wins.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
Clients hold the strings, build the team, make the final decisions, set the parameters of the project, take the financial risk and reap the financial rewards. As architects, we typically wait (anxiously) for clients to bring their projects to us; as opposed to working like real estate investors who (with their own money at stake) bring multiple people to the table, creating a project from scratch.
I'm actually in the process of setting up a studio/collective/crew of young designers in Boston that will work to change this relationship. We will be/find our own clients and work to develop projects that are rewarding and meaningful to us rather than waiting for pre-defined projects to fall into our laps.
If architects want more responsibility and more financial reward, I genuinely think we need to find new ways to getting involved in projects earlier in the process; more so than just being the overworked cog in the wheel. I don't have it all figured out yet but hopefully we'll learn something along the way.
Lots of people do background checks on potential clients. That can turn up all sorts of history like litigation, business dealings, etc. Even google can reveal all sorts of things a client may not want you to know. A good sense of smell is best but not perfectly reliable.
Back in the day, when the East End was a series of small towns and everyone knew everyone, if you screwed someone over you were done. Now that we have the Hamptons, there is fresh meat coming here every day, pockets bulging, ready to make a killing. It's a sport, like hunting, and the big game is money.
As for a clearinghouse ... word of mouth. Since architects are by nature and practice highly competitive, fighting tooth and nail for commissions, that's not going to work very well.
In the end shit seeks its own level. And thus the effluent we know today as architecture.
^ Agree, the field is too competitive to work together to solve anything….best to develop your own projects, and/or work for clients that aren’t spending their own money…including wives taking revenge on cheating husbands.
The architect doesn't understand? Sounds simple to me. He went swimming in a toilet bowl with a couple of turds. Three if you count their attorney. From the sounds of the article and location, I'd be worried about them being "family" types.
Sounds like architects should ask for references from our clients' parole officers as well.
"As architects, we typically wait (anxiously) for clients to bring their projects to us; as opposed to working like real estate investors who (with their own money at stake) bring multiple people to the table, creating a project from scratch."
The Architect-as-Developer model is something that's been appealing to me quite a bit recently. My risk in exchange for my control. There are a few of us in Portland, including my current employer, and I must say the lack of "clients" is the best part of my day.
Personally I never do jobs for friends as i found that it oftens puts a strain on the friendship when, i say when not if, they become over demanding. However if they want advice i will happily help them for free.
(posting under real name, this a general summary and applies to none of my clients past,present,or future, strictly observational within OP's theme)...................
.... so lets start from a realistic beginning setting out into the profession............... you graduate, move to a city where you do not know anyone and have massive student loans. you need a job, and since rent is due next month you take the next job you can get. starbucks if you have to until an architecture firm hires you............................ the work type isn't anything you are into nor will it help your career, but your rent is due every month apparently, so you waste 2 or 3 years of your life at this firm..........................in the meantime you take your exams and pass, but guess what you do not really know anyone outside the work type or have any real clients. you change firms, moonlight, consult, maybe after 7-10 years you meet real clients, but in the meantime you decided to get married and have kids, so as much as you would want to join Lee Robert's collective you need to keep your Senior position at another humdrum firm to cover having a family...............................at this point you are like 15 years into the profession and want to head out on your own and lucky you - one of your bosses clients hates your boss and wants you to start a firm. maybe you do or maybe you don't realizing you have no real knowledge or skill for managing a business. i did know an architect who was offerered the client setting the whole thing up for him, he just had to design, at the time he turned it down....................so now you are on your own and we get to OP's client type. you came from a humdrum firm in a straight-up service oriented branch of the profession (i.e. for those who work for a living, most the profession).............. you know better to work for this client, everyone does, its just understood that if you are asking for $60k in fees you might get $30k in fees, word on the street, everyone who works for a living knows this apparently.......... the client provides opportunity for a work type you do not explicitly have experience for and all their friends are billionaires who pay real fees so don't piss them off, they might tell their friends. you do a background check and find litigation and all sorts of problems but for whatever reason the serious realtors or wealthy people in the city love them and remember their friends are worth billions so you know you are walking into a potential blackhole circus................either way you take the commisions because it serves your purpose at that time in your career. you are about 20-25 years into, an expert, bending over backwards for jerks, but you have to understand this client has been working at jerking people around for 20-25 years, if not more, so they are experts to. they know if you walk away there is always someone else and they know you need their recommendation, they have you by your livelihood...................now you may idiolize Bjarke and do as he might,with utter charm you meet all this guys billionaire friends and keep even the jerk happy while reeling in better paying work. you don't threaten to walk away, you say you are very busy, they understand that and say 'hey when you have time for the little man'. you may be less responsive but never a jerk about it and maybe they hook you up with one of their friends in this 'its understood I hooked you up, let that $30k go my friend'...........you can do nothing about these clients in the manner the OP would like to go about it, bad for business. you can not change the industry because its flawed from the time you enter academia......UNLESS of course mommy and daddy paid for school and you do not need to work for a living - then you can do anything, all hail Philip Johnson. you could do competitions until you win one, or maybe your mom and dad need a Lake summer home? but since you know nothing about being a professional architect, as interning wasnt necessary in starting your firm, just conceptual design, you end up hiring one of those architects who work for a living, but don't worry my friend you can treat them bad, they're used to..........so i am reminded of the rock bands Offspring's lyrics in the song " Have you Ever" -
When the truth walks away
Everybody stays
Cause the truth about the world is that crime does pay
So if you walk away
Who is gonna stay
Cause I'd like to think the world is a better place
I'd like to leave the world as a better place
I'd like to think the world
Fellgraph, the architect who is supposedly considering using the NJ housewife, apparently isn't familiar with Jaffe's Second Law. But it looks like he may now be familiar with the First.
The scales that Lady Justice holds are used to weigh money, the sword is to make sure that you pay.
I think the worst is to walk away from a project and a client. I would recommend if a client screws you raise the fees to the point that they will go somewhere else next time.
Firing a client is something to do as a last resort. Having an internal black list is ideal and price accordingly. Some jerks are less of a problem to others so creating a published list is not going to be as helpful as one person's social ills are not as problematic for others as it was for you. Everyone has a different set of social skills to deal with difficult people.
It is always going to be a calculated risk to take any client and sometimes you need to do some hard boring or annoying things to keep the office open.
Don’t think Chris’ assessment was far off at all; its representative of the majority, stuck in the mediocrity of our profession, largely self-inflicted…not everybody can solve a Rubik's Cube (no reflection on Chris).
no_form was it the mediocre life or the turning of the other cheek to jerk clients that was depressing?
instead of making a list or unions we could just warn each other what to look for. Peter is right, sometimes its just personal differences, so not all clients are jerks, some are just incompatible.
Warnings of what I call broke-ass millionaire loan flippers-
1. They are doing the entire project based on loans they secured with other loans, no real capital just a lot of speculation.
2. They don't need a licensed architect because it will never get further than schematics and renderings.
3. They have contractors bid on the schematics. Contractors will do this for free, so why shouldn't you do schematics for free? hey we're all in this together for the client.
4. They tell you they can't pay because funds are tied up (they never really had any) and promise once the deal goes through, whatever that may, you'll be taken care of.
5. Their expertise is in getting lots of work done at little to no cost, while the property value increases considerably more, based on mere speculation, they drag out everyone's invoices and fees until a contractor threatens their life. The architects and engineers just keep sending letters and have their lawyers send letters. The contractor usually gets paid, especially if they are that kind of "guy".
6. They often give you other architect's drawings and tell you the other architect "just didn't get it". Call the other architect up, they may simply tell you an invoice is over due for 180 days or something.
mediocracy is a downer, but what about spotting good potential....
How do you know they could be that client?
1 - Young idea or concept with founders who spend countless hours making their concept get out in the world. They may not always pay the best, but it's not for lack of wanting to, it's just they are an upstart and if you take care of them they tend to stick with what works once things get going.
2 - Franchisee client looking for a new market in a new city, but doesn't want to use their guys as it's more cost effective to have a local get the job through.
3 - Non-profit firm that will pay low because they are non-profit, but they have a yearly budget to improve facilities. take the work, it may be low paying but do it, bread and butter.
4 - Developer who does a lot in CASH and wants something different.
5 - A client who gives you a book on architecture, like BIG or Robert A.M. Stern, may not be your style, but if they pay well and care about architecture you have a winner.
the mediocre life. which goes back to the raise the average thread. it just sounds so boring and meaningless. but people want more money, security, privacy, and good schools for their kids. it's the overarching theme i hear from married couples.
back on track to clients. part of the reason the public does not understand or value or work is that we practically give it away for free.
typically, you get what you pay for. the less you pay the less you expect in terms of quality and service. yet architects are foolish. they strive to give you the best service and quality of work for the cheapest price possible. and they undercut each other to do it.
it's really one of the most pathetic qualities of this profession. it's no wonder people think all we do is draft or are only concerned with making things look nice. and people here complain about how little they make...
Part of the reason the public doesn't understand architecture is because they can't afford it, except as provided by a developer who has a very different idea about what it is for. Part is because the architecture that makes headlines is either an exercise in absurdity or a complete failure, if not both.
The people who can afford architects are for the most part exercising what they think is personal entitlement because they have money. As society becomes ever more skewed economically all of this will only get worse.
My wife and I operated a corporate interiors firm for five years in the late '90's. Great times. We didn't think we could change anyone's world with design but we *did* resolve to never work without contracts and never work without getting paid. We were a small business of the year candidate one year, had great corporate clients, had awesome employees and a great office environment. If potential clients gave us static about agreements or fees, we didn't work with them. If people didn't want to pay we went after them. If we didn't like our clients we fired them. We were known in the community for putting our clients first and doing great business, hence we always had people who wanted to work with us. Architects approached us wanting to pair up with us, thinking they could improve our business with their "design ability". We politely turned them away. We did great projects, learned a lifetime of lessons and made our share of mistakes. When we did we made things right with our clients. We were paid every dime owed to us and closed that chapter with happy memories and positive connections.
Our profession needs to collectively grow a pair. Be strong and certain about your business goals. Don't willingly enter into bad relationships - remember, you choose to play. When you do play, play to win for yourself. Make sure your clearly stated goals are satisfied along with that of your clients'. Don't be so naive to think that any "goodwill", free work or otherwise ethereal good vibe given to your client will somehow result in benefit for yourself. Benefits for yourself need to be spelled out clearly in black and white in the agreement. Learn and understand business and stay strong.
Our profession doesn't need clearinghouses, it needs cajones.
"If potential clients gave us static about agreements or fees, we didn't work with them. If people didn't want to pay we went after them. If we didn't like our clients we fired them...Don't be so naive to think that any "goodwill", free work or otherwise ethereal good vibe given to your client will somehow result in benefit for yourself."
It is first and foremost a business, not an artist's atelier and you have to always approach it that way. The romance of the starving artist should end the minute you graduate.
I'll negotiate on scope but not on price. Usually that means I'll cut scope, determine the value of the cut and give the client half of the change. I'm in business, not a charity.
my favorite clients are the ones that don't pay for the work you have done and you have a paper trail a mile long. Attorneys also love this kind of architect. Cover you asses brothers and sisters!
Keep records of all you design time, construction document time and administration time. Along with records of public meetings, cause if you speak they always have records of you if you speak.
If mileage is a reimbursable keep tracks of miles, dates you went to the site and always send and email from the site to your office confirming you were at the site with a photographs showing you and the client or various members of the construction team. Don't , make a big deal out of it. When the client says you were never on the site...well gottcha!
If you don't get paid slap a lien on the property even if your client doesn't own it. Usually property owners and not very happy when a tenant has created a lien against their property. This has to be done in a timely manner like within 90 days of sending him an invoice. Be sure your last invoice is certified mail or delivered by someone from the court system who can serve papers. The invoice should also carry the tracking numbers on it as they appear on the outside of the letter. This is just another layer of information, which is helpful in your case in the court.
Also keep a hard copy of your records with the clients like emails. Then your attorney can sequester the same from the client. If they are hiding crap this is where it comes to light.
Also keep a log of all phone calls and length of phone calls, this is usually pretty easy with the records kept if your using a phone service associated with your internet provider. Do however be aware they will only hold them for so long so be sure to have hard copies, if the project is an extended project.
When your doing product finishes have them sign everything. Usually once it is up, if they are a dog client they will have a million reasons to hate it but never do anything to change the finish as long as it makes them money.
When there are extras outside of the contract let them know right away in writing. Tell them what the cost of the extra is and have them sign off on it.
If you working with an international or national company like an automobile manufacturer and there are branding architects involved in the project. You will be submitting review drawings to them during the process, be sure they sign off on the design. Be sure the client (automobile dealership owner) signs off on the review drawings. Alert them to any changes from the contract in writing as they have a memory of a piece of wood and when something becomes and issued down the road, you will know right where their headed. Yup...I was unaware of any changes from the design development package provided by manufacturer.
If you working in an existing building. Walk the building extensively photograph everything or video it before you provide a proposal. When you doing your code review, back check yourself just to be sure you are not going to need a fire alarm system, fire barrier walls, ect. due to the size of the building.
If your wandering into strange territory have an attorney review your contract even if your using and AIA Contract. Be sure to have their cost figured into your fee for the project.
When your in meetings document everyone in the meeting by having them sign in on a sign in sheet. Document where the meeting was held day and time of meeting. As most people going to meetings have a paper trail...even they guy who you might be in court with.
Thinking I have hit upon some of the "Deer looking into the Headlights, Issues." Would love to have others add to this list.
^^Good list except for the fact that attorney’s will wipe their ass with all of it….good if you have a trial, but you never get to trial on money issues…they make you settle or else….it will help, but won’t save the day, you’ll get 50 cents on a dollar if you’re lucky which will go to your attorney - Zero-Sum Game.
Think there is no substitute for a short leash on clients…not sure after 40 years that any of my written contracts/documentation helped because once you get in a crack it’s already too late(see Jaffe’s Laws)…so not being in too deep is essential to the inevitable walkaway.
I like playing devil's advocate so I'm gonna look at this from the side of a non-architect. Is it possible that the work of architects is worth less than the majority of the architecture community believes? After all, the amount of effort put into making something does determine its value. So while one can argue that several hours of labor went into the production of the client's product, there clearly is a disconnect between consumer idealized value and the architect's preferred compensation.
In a world, that is evolving in almost every one of its aspects exponentially, I think the fact that compensation for designs consistently decreasing long term may be more of a reflection on the superflousness of (presently) how much work goes into the design process as well as the increasing intelligence of a consumer base. Maybe the disconnect is something similar to how much effort into making clothes before that was automated.
I don't claim to have the answers, these are just the wonderings of a young millennial. I think by being honest and not pessimistic we can solve these issues though.
Is architecture an art or a business? If it's practiced as art, fees are irrelevant. Artists pursue vision, businessmen pursue money (avoiding for a moment the minefield of semantics and the business of art).
Is the intelligence of the consumer base knowledge of what us 'best' to consume or wisdom about the real effects of consumption?
Not sure there should ever be a connection between time/labor and compensation. Your paid for the end product regardless of how long it took to produce
shuellmi: If you don't connect time and compensation when engaged in a creative process for someone else, they alone will get when the process is done, and you have no protection. Even an eat-all-you-can restaurant knows that while they might lose money on a particularly "hungry" customer, there is a limit since a no one can keep eating non stop indefinitely. At least the design phase should be hourly only, although I know only too well how hard that can be to get.
Once you move into production it's a different story.
^ See Jaffe's Second Law. Bad clients know you can't afford to play with lawyers and use that against you. Thus Carrera's advice don't get in too deep.
Or get really good at contracting... I was very, very clear about the services under the proposal. If I sniffed a stiff or pita client, I had a largish contingency (blood money) built into my fees. You learn to bill ahead, get retainers, and how to formally place a project on hold for late payments. There are also contracting tricks to break out the fee's in such a way that it makes 'smaller numbers' like 'architectural only' with 'cost plus' fee consultants. Entitlement, like planning, on hourly (which also means most of SD is in there, so you can double dip and then offer up a 'credit' to this client to look even better/cheaper).
And you learn to control your staff to do only what is needed, so then you can throw in those little extra services the client will request under the fee structure and still come out in the black on the books and look good to the client.
I've already seen several good pointers in here for managing clients. Thank you!
Here are a few of my contract writing pointers to all of you:
1. Create a Pre-Design Phase, clearly define in your conversations and contract that altering basic design concepts in Schematic Design that were decided in Pre-Design is an add service. Problem Solved? The endless Schematic Design Cycle.
2. Clearly define that it is the client that is taking on the risk of Construction cost over runs in your contract by requiring them to have appropriate contingencies. This includes Design Changes, Change Orders etc. As the only party in the contract who directly benefits from the profit of the project it is appropriate that they take on the vast majorities of the risks. Even the Design teams oversights that result in project costs. This of course does not forgive the Design team for gross negligence below the standard of care, but it clearly defines that the standard of care is not perfection.
Problem Solved? : Being on the hook for construction costs that are in excess of your % of the fee.
3. CA: Charge Hourly for it. Many clients don't realize how much time it takes and thus are not willing to pay an appropriate fee for it. That's fine I say, I won't set a fee, just pay me for the time I spend. I make it hourly or if they push back on that we set limits on how many hours we will do in a month before charging hourly. We also always tell clients who push back that if it should have been in the CDs then we don't charge for it.
Problem Solved? Contractors using you as their drawing interpreters with endless RFIs. Staying in the black at the end of the project. Getting paid to answer important questions.
4. Have an add service line item for Professional photography, this is a value to your client and you. In the end they have way more invested in this asset than you and if they need to sell it or market it, why not gets some great photos when it is at its best!?
Problem Solved:? Having lots of great work that takes way too long to enter your marketing.
In terms of my original idea, It appears Architects aren't quite ready to join the information age where we all know everything about everyone. I agree there will always be someone who will work with any client....but I still think it would be great to go into that arrangement with our eyes open.
Clients behaving Badly
We've all had them.
They expect perfection and the lowest fee you can stomach.
They don't pay and threaten to sue when you stop work.
The negotiation of your fee is never settled as they are always looking for an reason to get you to provide more service for less money by extorting you with some angle.
My question is simple: Can we do something about them? Can we band together and create a place where we can check on them and if one of us needs to risk servicing them they do it with full disclosure and perhaps additional fee.
I see pros and cons on both sides, but my thought is that more information = better decisions.
Selfishly I would love to see these clients finding their fees increasing and fewer and fewer designers willing to service them as their reputations are finally put out in the light of day.
I don't want to whine in a forum about them, I want to do something about them.
(To those of you who would try to nudge us toward proactively avoiding all client conflicts through careful communication and contract negotiation, I'm with you, but we all know it doesn't always work that way and this thread is for those times.)
Thank you all in advance for the lively debate.
Any kind of formal "clearing house" is impractical (how would you set it up?) and might even have legal implications. The central problem is supply and demand. Without beating that dead horse again, there will always be people who, because of a lack of work or portfolio padding or just plain naivte, will take what they think is a calculated risk.
The trend toward commoditization is happening all across the economy, and unfortunately all too often architectural service are (sorry to say it) a commodity. When you're selling a commodity the lowest price wins.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
Clients hold the strings, build the team, make the final decisions, set the parameters of the project, take the financial risk and reap the financial rewards. As architects, we typically wait (anxiously) for clients to bring their projects to us; as opposed to working like real estate investors who (with their own money at stake) bring multiple people to the table, creating a project from scratch.
I'm actually in the process of setting up a studio/collective/crew of young designers in Boston that will work to change this relationship. We will be/find our own clients and work to develop projects that are rewarding and meaningful to us rather than waiting for pre-defined projects to fall into our laps.
If architects want more responsibility and more financial reward, I genuinely think we need to find new ways to getting involved in projects earlier in the process; more so than just being the overworked cog in the wheel. I don't have it all figured out yet but hopefully we'll learn something along the way.
Lots of people do background checks on potential clients. That can turn up all sorts of history like litigation, business dealings, etc. Even google can reveal all sorts of things a client may not want you to know. A good sense of smell is best but not perfectly reliable.
Back in the day, when the East End was a series of small towns and everyone knew everyone, if you screwed someone over you were done. Now that we have the Hamptons, there is fresh meat coming here every day, pockets bulging, ready to make a killing. It's a sport, like hunting, and the big game is money.
As for a clearinghouse ... word of mouth. Since architects are by nature and practice highly competitive, fighting tooth and nail for commissions, that's not going to work very well.
In the end shit seeks its own level. And thus the effluent we know today as architecture.
^ Agree, the field is too competitive to work together to solve anything….best to develop your own projects, and/or work for clients that aren’t spending their own money…including wives taking revenge on cheating husbands.
In the news, architect owed $13,000 by jersey housewife who comes home from jail to a new luxury SUV.
Says the architect, "The whole thing I don't understand." Me neither. Don't anybody work for those guys.
The architect doesn't understand? Sounds simple to me. He went swimming in a toilet bowl with a couple of turds. Three if you count their attorney. From the sounds of the article and location, I'd be worried about them being "family" types.
Sounds like architects should ask for references from our clients' parole officers as well.
"As architects, we typically wait (anxiously) for clients to bring their projects to us; as opposed to working like real estate investors who (with their own money at stake) bring multiple people to the table, creating a project from scratch."
The Architect-as-Developer model is something that's been appealing to me quite a bit recently. My risk in exchange for my control. There are a few of us in Portland, including my current employer, and I must say the lack of "clients" is the best part of my day.
Personally I never do jobs for friends as i found that it oftens puts a strain on the friendship when, i say when not if, they become over demanding. However if they want advice i will happily help them for free.
(posting under real name, this a general summary and applies to none of my clients past,present,or future, strictly observational within OP's theme)................... .... so lets start from a realistic beginning setting out into the profession............... you graduate, move to a city where you do not know anyone and have massive student loans. you need a job, and since rent is due next month you take the next job you can get. starbucks if you have to until an architecture firm hires you............................ the work type isn't anything you are into nor will it help your career, but your rent is due every month apparently, so you waste 2 or 3 years of your life at this firm..........................in the meantime you take your exams and pass, but guess what you do not really know anyone outside the work type or have any real clients. you change firms, moonlight, consult, maybe after 7-10 years you meet real clients, but in the meantime you decided to get married and have kids, so as much as you would want to join Lee Robert's collective you need to keep your Senior position at another humdrum firm to cover having a family...............................at this point you are like 15 years into the profession and want to head out on your own and lucky you - one of your bosses clients hates your boss and wants you to start a firm. maybe you do or maybe you don't realizing you have no real knowledge or skill for managing a business. i did know an architect who was offerered the client setting the whole thing up for him, he just had to design, at the time he turned it down....................so now you are on your own and we get to OP's client type. you came from a humdrum firm in a straight-up service oriented branch of the profession (i.e. for those who work for a living, most the profession).............. you know better to work for this client, everyone does, its just understood that if you are asking for $60k in fees you might get $30k in fees, word on the street, everyone who works for a living knows this apparently.......... the client provides opportunity for a work type you do not explicitly have experience for and all their friends are billionaires who pay real fees so don't piss them off, they might tell their friends. you do a background check and find litigation and all sorts of problems but for whatever reason the serious realtors or wealthy people in the city love them and remember their friends are worth billions so you know you are walking into a potential blackhole circus................either way you take the commisions because it serves your purpose at that time in your career. you are about 20-25 years into, an expert, bending over backwards for jerks, but you have to understand this client has been working at jerking people around for 20-25 years, if not more, so they are experts to. they know if you walk away there is always someone else and they know you need their recommendation, they have you by your livelihood...................now you may idiolize Bjarke and do as he might,with utter charm you meet all this guys billionaire friends and keep even the jerk happy while reeling in better paying work. you don't threaten to walk away, you say you are very busy, they understand that and say 'hey when you have time for the little man'. you may be less responsive but never a jerk about it and maybe they hook you up with one of their friends in this 'its understood I hooked you up, let that $30k go my friend'...........you can do nothing about these clients in the manner the OP would like to go about it, bad for business. you can not change the industry because its flawed from the time you enter academia......UNLESS of course mommy and daddy paid for school and you do not need to work for a living - then you can do anything, all hail Philip Johnson. you could do competitions until you win one, or maybe your mom and dad need a Lake summer home? but since you know nothing about being a professional architect, as interning wasnt necessary in starting your firm, just conceptual design, you end up hiring one of those architects who work for a living, but don't worry my friend you can treat them bad, they're used to..........so i am reminded of the rock bands Offspring's lyrics in the song " Have you Ever" - When the truth walks away Everybody stays Cause the truth about the world is that crime does pay So if you walk away Who is gonna stay Cause I'd like to think the world is a better place I'd like to leave the world as a better place I'd like to think the world
....next Album - Offspring - Conspiracy of One - Intro - Come out Swinging
Fellgraph, the architect who is supposedly considering using the NJ housewife, apparently isn't familiar with Jaffe's Second Law. But it looks like he may now be familiar with the First.
The scales that Lady Justice holds are used to weigh money, the sword is to make sure that you pay.
We need something like "Mason Insurance".
Long run on sentences with minimal periods. I find it impressive.
Jerks get noticed by most people around them.
I think the worst is to walk away from a project and a client. I would recommend if a client screws you raise the fees to the point that they will go somewhere else next time.
Firing a client is something to do as a last resort. Having an internal black list is ideal and price accordingly. Some jerks are less of a problem to others so creating a published list is not going to be as helpful as one person's social ills are not as problematic for others as it was for you. Everyone has a different set of social skills to deal with difficult people.
It is always going to be a calculated risk to take any client and sometimes you need to do some hard boring or annoying things to keep the office open.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Don’t think Chris’ assessment was far off at all; its representative of the majority, stuck in the mediocrity of our profession, largely self-inflicted…not everybody can solve a Rubik's Cube (no reflection on Chris).
no_form was it the mediocre life or the turning of the other cheek to jerk clients that was depressing?
instead of making a list or unions we could just warn each other what to look for. Peter is right, sometimes its just personal differences, so not all clients are jerks, some are just incompatible.
Warnings of what I call broke-ass millionaire loan flippers-
1. They are doing the entire project based on loans they secured with other loans, no real capital just a lot of speculation.
2. They don't need a licensed architect because it will never get further than schematics and renderings.
3. They have contractors bid on the schematics. Contractors will do this for free, so why shouldn't you do schematics for free? hey we're all in this together for the client.
4. They tell you they can't pay because funds are tied up (they never really had any) and promise once the deal goes through, whatever that may, you'll be taken care of.
5. Their expertise is in getting lots of work done at little to no cost, while the property value increases considerably more, based on mere speculation, they drag out everyone's invoices and fees until a contractor threatens their life. The architects and engineers just keep sending letters and have their lawyers send letters. The contractor usually gets paid, especially if they are that kind of "guy".
6. They often give you other architect's drawings and tell you the other architect "just didn't get it". Call the other architect up, they may simply tell you an invoice is over due for 180 days or something.
hope that helps
and Happy New Year!
Carrera, wishful thinking. Hope you enjoy the book.
fml.
it's not so bad A.I. all work sucks. ours just sucks in its own special way.
what's with all the depression?
mediocracy is a downer, but what about spotting good potential....
How do you know they could be that client?
1 - Young idea or concept with founders who spend countless hours making their concept get out in the world. They may not always pay the best, but it's not for lack of wanting to, it's just they are an upstart and if you take care of them they tend to stick with what works once things get going.
2 - Franchisee client looking for a new market in a new city, but doesn't want to use their guys as it's more cost effective to have a local get the job through.
3 - Non-profit firm that will pay low because they are non-profit, but they have a yearly budget to improve facilities. take the work, it may be low paying but do it, bread and butter.
4 - Developer who does a lot in CASH and wants something different.
5 - A client who gives you a book on architecture, like BIG or Robert A.M. Stern, may not be your style, but if they pay well and care about architecture you have a winner.
the mediocre life. which goes back to the raise the average thread. it just sounds so boring and meaningless. but people want more money, security, privacy, and good schools for their kids. it's the overarching theme i hear from married couples.
back on track to clients. part of the reason the public does not understand or value or work is that we practically give it away for free.
typically, you get what you pay for. the less you pay the less you expect in terms of quality and service. yet architects are foolish. they strive to give you the best service and quality of work for the cheapest price possible. and they undercut each other to do it.
it's really one of the most pathetic qualities of this profession. it's no wonder people think all we do is draft or are only concerned with making things look nice. and people here complain about how little they make...
Part of the reason the public doesn't understand architecture is because they can't afford it, except as provided by a developer who has a very different idea about what it is for. Part is because the architecture that makes headlines is either an exercise in absurdity or a complete failure, if not both.
The people who can afford architects are for the most part exercising what they think is personal entitlement because they have money. As society becomes ever more skewed economically all of this will only get worse.
My wife and I operated a corporate interiors firm for five years in the late '90's. Great times. We didn't think we could change anyone's world with design but we *did* resolve to never work without contracts and never work without getting paid. We were a small business of the year candidate one year, had great corporate clients, had awesome employees and a great office environment. If potential clients gave us static about agreements or fees, we didn't work with them. If people didn't want to pay we went after them. If we didn't like our clients we fired them. We were known in the community for putting our clients first and doing great business, hence we always had people who wanted to work with us. Architects approached us wanting to pair up with us, thinking they could improve our business with their "design ability". We politely turned them away. We did great projects, learned a lifetime of lessons and made our share of mistakes. When we did we made things right with our clients. We were paid every dime owed to us and closed that chapter with happy memories and positive connections.
Our profession needs to collectively grow a pair. Be strong and certain about your business goals. Don't willingly enter into bad relationships - remember, you choose to play. When you do play, play to win for yourself. Make sure your clearly stated goals are satisfied along with that of your clients'. Don't be so naive to think that any "goodwill", free work or otherwise ethereal good vibe given to your client will somehow result in benefit for yourself. Benefits for yourself need to be spelled out clearly in black and white in the agreement. Learn and understand business and stay strong.
Our profession doesn't need clearinghouses, it needs cajones.
"If potential clients gave us static about agreements or fees, we didn't work with them. If people didn't want to pay we went after them. If we didn't like our clients we fired them...Don't be so naive to think that any "goodwill", free work or otherwise ethereal good vibe given to your client will somehow result in benefit for yourself."
well said.
It is first and foremost a business, not an artist's atelier and you have to always approach it that way. The romance of the starving artist should end the minute you graduate.
timothysadler: "Our profession doesn't need clearinghouses, it needs cajones."
+1
^ Hard to sew on to a bunch of pussy's.
you're funny Carrera. that will never happen, we push paper!
The bad clients are the ones you recommend to your direct competition.
^ Yet another example of professional cooperation between architects. What's funny is when the bad client and new arch hit it off.
and then half the new arch's staff quits...
If someone is coming to you from your competition then you should probably be on high alert.
My favorite clients are the ones who cut your fee while increasing the scope of the project.
my favorite clients are the ones that don't pay for the work you have done and you have a paper trail a mile long. Attorneys also love this kind of architect. Cover you asses brothers and sisters!
Rule to Live By.
Have a contract.
Keep records of all you design time, construction document time and administration time. Along with records of public meetings, cause if you speak they always have records of you if you speak.
If mileage is a reimbursable keep tracks of miles, dates you went to the site and always send and email from the site to your office confirming you were at the site with a photographs showing you and the client or various members of the construction team. Don't , make a big deal out of it. When the client says you were never on the site...well gottcha!
If you don't get paid slap a lien on the property even if your client doesn't own it. Usually property owners and not very happy when a tenant has created a lien against their property. This has to be done in a timely manner like within 90 days of sending him an invoice. Be sure your last invoice is certified mail or delivered by someone from the court system who can serve papers. The invoice should also carry the tracking numbers on it as they appear on the outside of the letter. This is just another layer of information, which is helpful in your case in the court.
Also keep a hard copy of your records with the clients like emails. Then your attorney can sequester the same from the client. If they are hiding crap this is where it comes to light.
Also keep a log of all phone calls and length of phone calls, this is usually pretty easy with the records kept if your using a phone service associated with your internet provider. Do however be aware they will only hold them for so long so be sure to have hard copies, if the project is an extended project.
When your doing product finishes have them sign everything. Usually once it is up, if they are a dog client they will have a million reasons to hate it but never do anything to change the finish as long as it makes them money.
When there are extras outside of the contract let them know right away in writing. Tell them what the cost of the extra is and have them sign off on it.
If you working with an international or national company like an automobile manufacturer and there are branding architects involved in the project. You will be submitting review drawings to them during the process, be sure they sign off on the design. Be sure the client (automobile dealership owner) signs off on the review drawings. Alert them to any changes from the contract in writing as they have a memory of a piece of wood and when something becomes and issued down the road, you will know right where their headed. Yup...I was unaware of any changes from the design development package provided by manufacturer.
If you working in an existing building. Walk the building extensively photograph everything or video it before you provide a proposal. When you doing your code review, back check yourself just to be sure you are not going to need a fire alarm system, fire barrier walls, ect. due to the size of the building.
If your wandering into strange territory have an attorney review your contract even if your using and AIA Contract. Be sure to have their cost figured into your fee for the project.
When your in meetings document everyone in the meeting by having them sign in on a sign in sheet. Document where the meeting was held day and time of meeting. As most people going to meetings have a paper trail...even they guy who you might be in court with.
Thinking I have hit upon some of the "Deer looking into the Headlights, Issues." Would love to have others add to this list.
Please refer to Jaffe's First and Second Laws.
^^Good list except for the fact that attorney’s will wipe their ass with all of it….good if you have a trial, but you never get to trial on money issues…they make you settle or else….it will help, but won’t save the day, you’ll get 50 cents on a dollar if you’re lucky which will go to your attorney - Zero-Sum Game.
Think there is no substitute for a short leash on clients…not sure after 40 years that any of my written contracts/documentation helped because once you get in a crack it’s already too late(see Jaffe’s Laws)…so not being in too deep is essential to the inevitable walkaway.
I like playing devil's advocate so I'm gonna look at this from the side of a non-architect. Is it possible that the work of architects is worth less than the majority of the architecture community believes? After all, the amount of effort put into making something does determine its value. So while one can argue that several hours of labor went into the production of the client's product, there clearly is a disconnect between consumer idealized value and the architect's preferred compensation.
In a world, that is evolving in almost every one of its aspects exponentially, I think the fact that compensation for designs consistently decreasing long term may be more of a reflection on the superflousness of (presently) how much work goes into the design process as well as the increasing intelligence of a consumer base. Maybe the disconnect is something similar to how much effort into making clothes before that was automated.
I don't claim to have the answers, these are just the wonderings of a young millennial. I think by being honest and not pessimistic we can solve these issues though.
Is architecture an art or a business? If it's practiced as art, fees are irrelevant. Artists pursue vision, businessmen pursue money (avoiding for a moment the minefield of semantics and the business of art).
Is the intelligence of the consumer base knowledge of what us 'best' to consume or wisdom about the real effects of consumption?
Not sure there should ever be a connection between time/labor and compensation. Your paid for the end product regardless of how long it took to produce
architecture is an art, which is why it makes such a lousy business...
shuellmi: If you don't connect time and compensation when engaged in a creative process for someone else, they alone will get when the process is done, and you have no protection. Even an eat-all-you-can restaurant knows that while they might lose money on a particularly "hungry" customer, there is a limit since a no one can keep eating non stop indefinitely. At least the design phase should be hourly only, although I know only too well how hard that can be to get.
Carrera, Miles:
The idea is to never get to court. The Snake Clients know when your watching them.
They always run away.
^^ In design, time is irrelevant to compensation.
Once you move into production it's a different story.
^ See Jaffe's Second Law. Bad clients know you can't afford to play with lawyers and use that against you. Thus Carrera's advice don't get in too deep.
Never met many architects that were sharks…more like dolphins…never saw a dolphin eat a shark.
apparently killer whales belong to the dolphin family.
http://gawker.com/ever-see-a-whale-eat-a-shark-1640134129
"Killer whales" are architects that become developers.....
Or get really good at contracting... I was very, very clear about the services under the proposal. If I sniffed a stiff or pita client, I had a largish contingency (blood money) built into my fees. You learn to bill ahead, get retainers, and how to formally place a project on hold for late payments. There are also contracting tricks to break out the fee's in such a way that it makes 'smaller numbers' like 'architectural only' with 'cost plus' fee consultants. Entitlement, like planning, on hourly (which also means most of SD is in there, so you can double dip and then offer up a 'credit' to this client to look even better/cheaper).
And you learn to control your staff to do only what is needed, so then you can throw in those little extra services the client will request under the fee structure and still come out in the black on the books and look good to the client.
Great discussion. Thank you all for your input.
I've already seen several good pointers in here for managing clients. Thank you!
Here are a few of my contract writing pointers to all of you:
1. Create a Pre-Design Phase, clearly define in your conversations and contract that altering basic design concepts in Schematic Design that were decided in Pre-Design is an add service. Problem Solved? The endless Schematic Design Cycle.
2. Clearly define that it is the client that is taking on the risk of Construction cost over runs in your contract by requiring them to have appropriate contingencies. This includes Design Changes, Change Orders etc. As the only party in the contract who directly benefits from the profit of the project it is appropriate that they take on the vast majorities of the risks. Even the Design teams oversights that result in project costs. This of course does not forgive the Design team for gross negligence below the standard of care, but it clearly defines that the standard of care is not perfection.
Problem Solved? : Being on the hook for construction costs that are in excess of your % of the fee.
3. CA: Charge Hourly for it. Many clients don't realize how much time it takes and thus are not willing to pay an appropriate fee for it. That's fine I say, I won't set a fee, just pay me for the time I spend. I make it hourly or if they push back on that we set limits on how many hours we will do in a month before charging hourly. We also always tell clients who push back that if it should have been in the CDs then we don't charge for it.
Problem Solved? Contractors using you as their drawing interpreters with endless RFIs. Staying in the black at the end of the project. Getting paid to answer important questions.
4. Have an add service line item for Professional photography, this is a value to your client and you. In the end they have way more invested in this asset than you and if they need to sell it or market it, why not gets some great photos when it is at its best!?
Problem Solved:? Having lots of great work that takes way too long to enter your marketing.
In terms of my original idea, It appears Architects aren't quite ready to join the information age where we all know everything about everyone. I agree there will always be someone who will work with any client....but I still think it would be great to go into that arrangement with our eyes open.
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