I am interested in becoming an architect without an architecture degree. I am in a state that lets you take the ARE exams with 8 years experience. I have 2 right now but am unemployed due to a layoff. I also have 4 years experience in residential construction. I am starting a bachelors degree program in construction engineering technology. How helpful would this degree be in the field of architecture? I do not have the option of getting an architecture degree. How many people out there are architects without architecture degrees? How difficult is the IDP without the architecture degree to back you up?
Antisthenes
Dec 5, 08 5:19 pm
NP
difficultfix
Dec 5, 08 5:21 pm
"I am starting a bachelors degree program in construction engineering technology. How helpful would this degree be in the field of architecture? I do not have the option of getting an architecture degree."
WHY?..... none in your area?
If you are going for a bachelors might as well study one extra year and get a B Arch.
difficultfix
Dec 5, 08 5:22 pm
Ahh you dont need it..
just go to "In-N-Out university"
in Baldwin Park CA...and you will be set
binary
Dec 5, 08 6:29 pm
!@#$%^&*()
Jessica Coleman
Dec 5, 08 8:07 pm
I suggest you visit NCARB ncarb.org. I do not know what state that you are from, it all comes down to credits.
According to New York State standards,you will still have to complete the Intern Development Program in order to take the test. Someone with a B.Arch or M.Arch will have more credits than someone that does not have a degree.It depends on the state board to determine when you are eligible to take the exam based on your experience.
In terms of finding another job, understand that you will be competing against those that do have an architecture degree. If you cannot get your undergrad degree in architecture, you should looking into a master's architecture program.
trace™
Dec 6, 08 8:58 am
why would you want to be an architect without learning to design?
seems like there are enough architect's out there already that don't know how to design.
med.
Dec 6, 08 9:14 am
No offense, but I think it's bullshit that you're allowed to be an architect without a degree. That's just my opinion.
We've all gone through school, so should everyone else.
Spencer Lepler
Dec 6, 08 2:20 pm
If your state allows it you can take the exams. But, it is my understanding that NCARB will not allow you to do a council record for means of getting reciprocal licensing without a pre-professional degree. If you ever want to move your license to a different state or to Canadian province it could be a long or impossible task.
Needlebeam
Dec 6, 08 6:50 pm
S. Lepler: I think you're confusing NCARB certification with a council record, and also confusing degrees.
Anybody can have a council record. You don't need any degree at all. But if you don't have an NAAB-accredited professional degree (B.Arch or M.Arch) then NCARB will not transmit your record to a state unless that state accepts council records from people without degrees.
An NCARB council record is just a record of information.
NCARB doesn't directly have anything to do with reciprocity.
But: To get a regular NCARB Certificate you need an NAAB degree, and you need to be licensed in at least one state. An NCARB Certificate is necessary for applying for reciprocity in about 20 states. In many others it's not an absolute requirement, but will make the reciprocity process easier (without it you may need to submit references, portfolio, resume, have an interview, etc.)
There's another type of NCARB certificate that is for people without an NAAB degree, but who have already been licensed in at least one state for at least 6 to 10 years (experience requirement depends on what degree the person does have, if any.) That certificate is accepted in all but about 8 states.
There are about 20 states in which a person without an NAAB degree can get licensed under some circumstances.
There are about 15 where you don't even need any degree at all.
binary
Dec 6, 08 7:17 pm
so whats the big deal with ncarb then?...
who really says if you can or can't take the exams and pass them then your registered?
what if some person just wants to take the exams and passes them...what does that mean then?....is it even possible to take the exams outside of ncarb?
b
myLiebermeisterAGG
Dec 7, 08 2:46 am
I qualified to take the exams through work equivalency. I had some college but saw it as a huge waste of time and money! I was not convinced at least for me that Universities were qualified to teach me to design. I continue to learn from those who actually do it for a living, and not those who teach what others have done. After 12 years actual experience I have found that few that are hiring give a rats ass where you went to college. They want to know you understand the real Architectural process and be instantly productive.
will galloway
Dec 7, 08 3:12 am
not that the system is perfect by any means, but there is a lot to learn at uni. discounting it so quickly sounds off to me.
here in japan uni is not required to take exams and my old boss (and still my mentor) is one who never went to any formal school after finishing high school. he is by dint of personality very special and also very very bright. he wanted to go to uni but his family was too poor. so he learned on the job and now runs office of 15 architects.
the office is currently populated with about 50% staff who never did uni and 50% who did. the difference between the two groups is clear and immediately obvious. unless they are otherwise driven the licenced architects who never went to uni have very little understanding of design, while all are proficient in technical terms. the result of this situation is that the uni going folks get better jobs and better pay. my old boss does not choose for things to be that way, rather it is entirely a natural pattern based on how the architects started their careers.
which is to say education does seem to matter. but personality perhaps matters more.
or at least that is how anecdotal evidence makes things look.
for the record, i dont care what uni potential staff went to, but do care that they can think. i do think uni gives us all a head start in that way.
myLiebermeisterAGG
Dec 7, 08 4:57 am
I will always considered myself....."otherwise driven"
snook_dude
Dec 7, 08 9:12 am
I have kicked around in Architecture since I was 18 and have never looked back. I started at the bottom as a go-for...in a firm. You know they kid who goes for everything, like lunch, feed the car meter, pick up prints at the engineers office, drop off this a city hall.
I studied at the BAC (Boston Architectural Center) back in the day when I worked in Beantown and also held a full time job. The oil crash of the 70's sent me back out west. Where I studied Landscape Architecture and Art for a year and a half.
Then I wandered farther West and worked in a firm in the upper Rockies. Working on a number of solar projects. I left there when I
learned the next project I was to be working on was a Womens State
Prision.
Traveled to the Southwest where I found a job in an Architecture Firm. After working a couple years I decided to head back to school,
which was forunate because of the slowdown in the market. I had
one of those awkward reviews, where the Senior Partner said there would be no raises. So I spilled the beans and let him know I was
headed back to school in the fall. Would you know they let me go
a couple of weeks later. I think I was unemployed a whole week before I was working in another office. I actually had three offers.
Went to the University of Arizona full time and continued to work in an office for three years. I grew tired of the University enviroment.
So after a long summer decided not to continue my education.
Moved up the road to Phoenix where I worked for three years. Met a lady from Connecticut and moved there when there was a slowdown in the Southwest in the late 1980's.
While in Arizona petitioned to take the Architectural Registration Exam , and was allowed to do so. Started exam process then moved to Connecticut.
Knocked around Connecticut in the last slow down. Worked in three different offices. Returned to Arizona to finish exam, while remaining in Connecticut. Passed all exams in Arizona, and became registered.
Petitioned Connecticut Architectural Registration Board to become licensed in Connecticut. Granted license. Still working in a firm.
Left firm to going an older architect as a partner. It didn't work out so hung my own shingle and that was twelve years ago.
Having heard of all the quirks of NCARB, I have never filled out the form work for registration.
Oh ya for the guy who thinks people who don't have a degree can't design, you must have your head in the sand. Bruce Goff never had a degree neither did Frank Lloyd Wright.
I would however like to have had the opportunity to have gone to school without working full time. However I have 5 brothers and sisters and their just wasn't enough money to go around. So we all worked and went to school. So stayed in and others found their paths
in life on there own, by starting businesses.
binary
Dec 7, 08 12:28 pm
great story snook and bones
i think there should be a license exam to be an arch. that doenst make you go down the traditional route of school/idp/etc..... then if you want sme hottness/etc then you can take another few exams for your hottness statis and then you recieve you button and bumper sticker
that was the reason i got my builders license after college..... even though i was limited on some projects, i still was able to work on some things
b
snook_dude
Dec 7, 08 12:33 pm
crizzler....I was managing projects when I was in school with people with Master's working under my direction. No one seemed to care if I had a degree or not. I brought things to the table and so did they and it all worked out.
Needlebeam
Dec 7, 08 1:29 pm
crizzler: it is the state boards that determine whether someone can test.
The tests are administered by NCARB, so no, there's no way to test "out of NCARB" - but it isn't NCARB who determines whether you're allowed to test. It's the rules of the state that you're testing through.
Some people decide to test "through" states that allow early testing, or testing without a degree, even though they're really living and taking the tests in a completely different state. That's fine (I think only Oklahoma and Tennessee have residency requirements), but it's not a guarantee that they'll be able to transfer their record to their actual state later and get licensed there - or even that they'll be eligible for reciprocity.
Examples of a few different actual scenarios:
1. Candidate is in Connecticut and isn't finished with IDP, but wants to start testing. He has his council record sent to Texas and applies to take tests. Texas approves him and he takes tests in Connecticut, but all results are being sent from NCARB to Texas to candidate. He finished IDP while testing or shortly afterward, has record transmitted again to Connecticut, applies for license in Connecticut, and is granted license - because while CT doesn't allow early testing, they don't have any rule against licensing someone who tested early through another state's rules.
2. Candidate is in Pennsylvania and isn't finished with IDP, but wants to start testing. He has his council record sent to Texas and applies to take tests. Texas approves him and he takes tests in Pennsylvania, but all results are being sent from NCARB to Texas to candidate. He finished IDP while testing or shortly afterward, has record transmitted again to Pennsylvania. But Pennsylvania rejects his license application, on the basis that he tested early, which is against that state's rules. His choices now: either test again, or apply for license in Texas, apply to get NCARB cetified, then seek reciprocity in Pennsylvania.
3. Candidate never went to college, but wants to take ARE. He has 9 years of documented full time experience in architecture firms. He lives in New Jersey. NJ's board has a rule that requires an NCARB degree. He has his record transmitted to Vermont. Vermont approves him to test, on the basis of experience. He tests in NJ, and once he passes all tests he gets licensed in Vermont. He thinks that this will automatically allow him to get reciprocity in NJ. When he tries this he finds out that NJ will not grant reciprocity under any circumstances without an NCARB degree.
4. Same candidate as in #3, but he lives in Texas. Texas won't let him test there because he has no degree. He gets licensed through Vermont. He seeks reciprocity in Texas. Texas grants reciprocity, on the basis that he has a license in another state.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that the rules of each state vary hugely, and that all the possible interactions of rules of multiple states can have hundreds of different ramifications for where/if candidates can get registered, and what order they must do things in.
And NCARB really has nothing to do with it, except that they administer the tests and keep all the records - and collect all the fees - which can be quite substantial in some of these scenarios, considering that there are annual dues involved with certification, and a $300 fee every time you transmit your record, and fees for starting a council record and fees for the exams...
binary
Dec 7, 08 2:41 pm
understandable.....
thanks
snook_dude
Dec 7, 08 3:23 pm
needle...that is why I think NCARB is SCREWING EVERYONE!
While they operate in a Wall Street Fashion.....big pay for the Top Dogs while dumping on the rest to put it kindly.
I don't think they have done anything for the Profession in the last 50 years.
will galloway
Dec 7, 08 6:01 pm
kool story snook.
based on above NCARB has nothing to do with the screwing. they are simply bureaucrats, recording results. it is the states who are messing with the people...
i love japan. one test for entire nation. one building code for entire nation. one zoning law for entire nation...they deal with all of that by being flexible, performance based rather than prescriptive...not that it leads to better architecture and anyway they are talking about copying the american system...the gods know why...
peridotbritches
Dec 7, 08 6:16 pm
Japan's licensing/code/zoning practice is not a model for the rest of the world which operates under different geophysical/political conditions that may require more variation in the operation.
That said, anything in America is monied-prey for those who already have enough money to make more money - including the organizations 'responsible' for 'making people architects'.
School is a very appropriate way to learn to design and lay a foundation for design in architectural thinking over purely technical resoluteness. Becoming an architect with a foundation in business thinking is different than becoming an architect with a foundation in design thinking, and neither is more prestigious or righteous than the other, and in fact, they need each other for a work of architecture to function.
....
So there.
will galloway
Dec 7, 08 7:00 pm
who said it was, peri?
although japan's planning system is more a model for the world than america's, in my not particularly humble opinion.
i have practiced architecture under NCARB, ARB and Japanese system over last 20 years. the flexibility of the japanese system was an eye-opener when i first came here, but i think UK system (though flawed) offered nice middle road. NCARB in canada was incredibly frustrating, especially since i have lived for so many years as an ex-pat. flexibility doesn't seem to be part of that system.
of course other countries are even more interesting. dutch system or french system will give you license if you have recognised degree (with little to no experience in office), and in sweden the system is not protected by law at all....
the one thing that does seem to be recognised across nations however is a degree in architecture. i don't think it is really necessary to become good architect, but for better or worse most of the world does.
i think all i have to do is fill these out then submit them.....
i'm confused..hahahahah.... go figure...this stuff makes me angry..
SELLOUT
Dec 16, 08 7:22 pm
arivas, with a degree in Construction Technology, you can assume a variety of roles in the industry working for a contractor, representing an owner, etc.
If you're not passionate about actually studying architecture why bother becoming an architect at all? What is your motivation to join an oversaturated profession?
mightylittle™
Dec 16, 08 7:42 pm
this is interesting:
why would you want to be an architect without learning to design?
seems like there are enough architect's out there already that don't know how to design.
no offense trace, but if there are already enough architects out there who don't know how to design, what was the point of school again?
dcozb
Dec 16, 08 8:06 pm
I guess all of us who busted our asses in school would really resent it if you were able to get a license. I doubt you could do it in CA. I hope not. Only because I went back to school for a B. Arch at a time when I could have just stayed at the office for 3 more years before sitting for written & graphic divisions. Which I kind of regret, due to massive loans I could have past on. The B.Arch. means a great deal to me, but I think the days of hanging a piece of paper on the wall is almost gone. People are more impressed with ability not credetials. A guy from ITT Tech who knows CAD and 3D software could give a B.Arch. holder a run for his money. I've seen it. But they will never be able to get licensed.... I hope.
mightylittle™
Dec 16, 08 8:18 pm
if the state boards and agencies allow for work experience to count in the same manner that school does, how are they busting their ass any less?
you may be right that abilities matter more than credentials, but credentials will open more doors generally, and get more compensation, generally, than a lack thereof.
the fact that someone took the ARE's after 8 or 9 years of work experience doesn't denigrate or devalue your hard work in the slightest.
dcozb
Dec 16, 08 8:34 pm
I give people with work experience mad props, no doubt. Especially someone who started out in construction and then to have a desire to get an achitectural degree. I see that as a true path. The same would go for a person out of a trade school, I guess. I just see a degree as being important in our profession, a B. Arch. I also think a B.Arch should be required for teaching, not just an undergrad in english and a M.Arch. There is something very important for a mind to go through studio, it helps the thinking and analytical process and brings more to the table.
Spencer Lepler
Dec 16, 08 8:55 pm
I think there is a key issue everyone is missing here.
It is not the job of the state boards to regulate architecture such that they can ensure good design. Rather, it is their job to regulate architecture to ensure the health, safety and welfare of the public.
Taking this into account, I personally see no reason school should be required for licensing. My schooling never dealt with health safety, or welfare.
On the other hand, I think that AIA and NCARB membership SHOULD require a pre-professional design degree to ensure that there is a difference between an architect who can ensure the public good, and one who can also do so with a nod to the best use of the space.
mightylittle™
Dec 16, 08 10:34 pm
On the other hand, I think that AIA and NCARB membership SHOULD require a pre-professional design degree to ensure that there is a difference between an architect who can ensure the public good, and one who can also do so with a nod to the best use of the space.
this is some pretty subjective reasoning here. NCARB and the AIA can no more ensure good design than the Division of Motor Vehicles can ensure that a licensed driver will take the quickest route from point A to point B.
myLiebermeisterAGG
Dec 17, 08 5:36 pm
dcozb wrote
"I guess all of us who busted our asses in school would really resent it if you were able to get a license. I doubt you could do it in CA. I hope not. "
Why would you hope not? I am halfway through my exams. I have worked with two well known successful Architects. My design abilities, structural knowledge, and overall Architectural practice knowledge has EARNED me well above average compensation, and extremely happy clients! All without attending a University. If you have to attend college to learn how to design, then perhaps you may not have the ability to begin with.
The thread leaning toward the thought of the non traditional route towards licensure as having less design ability, or knowledge of requirements regarding health and public safety is ignorant.
There are great places to learn things, and most are not kept in that magical institution of education of "higher learning".
I will take my experience with actual projects, with actual clients, with actual budgets, and actual schedules, over your "studio" experience any day. Getting a real project designed and built can take a good bit of "thinking" too.
mightylittle™
Dec 17, 08 5:54 pm
There are great places to learn things, and most are not kept in that magical institution of education of "higher learning".
hah. he said magical.
dcozb
Dec 17, 08 5:55 pm
You are absolutley correct, and my hat off to you. There was once a time, if you read what I wrote, that I too could have continued on to exams without a degree. My boss was the national president of the AIA, and he tried to keep me from going to a University. I had an AA and was a manual draftsman. I'm just a bit resentful that I didn't listen. I guess those of us that did go to school hold our degrees in such regard because of the time, effort, and money (loans). And like I said before, the times have changed. I'm not ignorant, just resentful of a cituation. You are a man (or woman) of talent and perseverence and you clearly love architecture and deserve to be licensed. Don't take everything you read here too seriously, please. And read everything someone wrote before you start calling people names, or judging them. You have the type of background that a true architect should have, experience. There are too many non-prepared graduates out there and it's a big problem. Read the thread about "thinning the forest".
Antisthenes
Dec 17, 08 5:57 pm
cudos
mightylittle™
Dec 17, 08 6:09 pm
everyone here deserves some kudos:
snook_dude
Dec 17, 08 6:27 pm
myL: I did a bit of both School and Work. There are merits to both methods of coming into this Profession. I just don't think the Profession should be so narrow minded as to eliminate the course of
apprenticing into the profession. It will keep the door open for those
who are better at the hands on kind of experience than the slow drawn out studio experience. I worked with an Architect years ago who inspired me in alot of ways...actually every architect I have worked for has brought inspiration to me in one way or another.
We lived close to one another and so would often walk from Harvard Square past Gund Hall on our way home and our conversations would
be about all sorts of things as he was originally from Columbia, and had studied in Columbian, Italy and France along with working in Denmark and of course the USA. He was a designer and not one for putting projects together. So his life was like poetry. What he said to me one day I will always carry with me. "There is only one good designer for every ten architects who profess to be designers." I have found that it does hold true after working in many parts of the country in assorted sizes of firms, and having been on my own for a number of years. People can wax poetic about their abilities coming out of univesity, but there is the real world. It is what you make it, not how you think about it. I chose the root of a small firm for myself, because I office politics between a husband and wife is not good, and any firm larger requires office politics. I have no desire to command a ship of people. I have respect of my community and of my clients. The work which comes out of our office is of two people and I always let people know that as my wife is the other architect.
She comes with a degree and I might add was at the top of her class.
She is the one who does the social marketing. Being from Brazil, she is culturally a friendly person, yet she is also quick in many aspect in that she speaks five languages, has lived in four different countries and has traveled extensively. We work semi-independent of one another, yet always seek out advice of the other. Then there is always the task of putting out documents which are valuable documents to the builder. This task is shared but an essential aspect of quality design. Yes Architecture is much more than sketchy lines and mystic verbal statements. Architecture is our livelyhood.
hamnas
Jan 21, 17 7:40 pm
I have an M.Arch degree from Sunny, Buffalo & about 16 years of USA experience in the field of architecture. I am licensed in Indian subcontinent area. Is there any way I can get an Architects registration in any state?
I will appreciate a response via an e-mail
Thank You,
Hamnas
accesskb
Jan 21, 17 9:57 pm
*)^*((%$&$%(O&^)& why didn't someone tell me I could become an architect without a degree?
I am interested in becoming an architect without an architecture degree. I am in a state that lets you take the ARE exams with 8 years experience. I have 2 right now but am unemployed due to a layoff. I also have 4 years experience in residential construction. I am starting a bachelors degree program in construction engineering technology. How helpful would this degree be in the field of architecture? I do not have the option of getting an architecture degree. How many people out there are architects without architecture degrees? How difficult is the IDP without the architecture degree to back you up?
NP
"I am starting a bachelors degree program in construction engineering technology. How helpful would this degree be in the field of architecture? I do not have the option of getting an architecture degree."
WHY?..... none in your area?
If you are going for a bachelors might as well study one extra year and get a B Arch.
Ahh you dont need it..
just go to "In-N-Out university"
in Baldwin Park CA...and you will be set
!@#$%^&*()
I suggest you visit NCARB ncarb.org. I do not know what state that you are from, it all comes down to credits.
According to New York State standards,you will still have to complete the Intern Development Program in order to take the test. Someone with a B.Arch or M.Arch will have more credits than someone that does not have a degree.It depends on the state board to determine when you are eligible to take the exam based on your experience.
In terms of finding another job, understand that you will be competing against those that do have an architecture degree. If you cannot get your undergrad degree in architecture, you should looking into a master's architecture program.
why would you want to be an architect without learning to design?
seems like there are enough architect's out there already that don't know how to design.
No offense, but I think it's bullshit that you're allowed to be an architect without a degree. That's just my opinion.
We've all gone through school, so should everyone else.
If your state allows it you can take the exams. But, it is my understanding that NCARB will not allow you to do a council record for means of getting reciprocal licensing without a pre-professional degree. If you ever want to move your license to a different state or to Canadian province it could be a long or impossible task.
S. Lepler: I think you're confusing NCARB certification with a council record, and also confusing degrees.
Anybody can have a council record. You don't need any degree at all. But if you don't have an NAAB-accredited professional degree (B.Arch or M.Arch) then NCARB will not transmit your record to a state unless that state accepts council records from people without degrees.
An NCARB council record is just a record of information.
NCARB doesn't directly have anything to do with reciprocity.
But: To get a regular NCARB Certificate you need an NAAB degree, and you need to be licensed in at least one state. An NCARB Certificate is necessary for applying for reciprocity in about 20 states. In many others it's not an absolute requirement, but will make the reciprocity process easier (without it you may need to submit references, portfolio, resume, have an interview, etc.)
There's another type of NCARB certificate that is for people without an NAAB degree, but who have already been licensed in at least one state for at least 6 to 10 years (experience requirement depends on what degree the person does have, if any.) That certificate is accepted in all but about 8 states.
There are about 20 states in which a person without an NAAB degree can get licensed under some circumstances.
There are about 15 where you don't even need any degree at all.
so whats the big deal with ncarb then?...
who really says if you can or can't take the exams and pass them then your registered?
what if some person just wants to take the exams and passes them...what does that mean then?....is it even possible to take the exams outside of ncarb?
b
I qualified to take the exams through work equivalency. I had some college but saw it as a huge waste of time and money! I was not convinced at least for me that Universities were qualified to teach me to design. I continue to learn from those who actually do it for a living, and not those who teach what others have done. After 12 years actual experience I have found that few that are hiring give a rats ass where you went to college. They want to know you understand the real Architectural process and be instantly productive.
not that the system is perfect by any means, but there is a lot to learn at uni. discounting it so quickly sounds off to me.
here in japan uni is not required to take exams and my old boss (and still my mentor) is one who never went to any formal school after finishing high school. he is by dint of personality very special and also very very bright. he wanted to go to uni but his family was too poor. so he learned on the job and now runs office of 15 architects.
the office is currently populated with about 50% staff who never did uni and 50% who did. the difference between the two groups is clear and immediately obvious. unless they are otherwise driven the licenced architects who never went to uni have very little understanding of design, while all are proficient in technical terms. the result of this situation is that the uni going folks get better jobs and better pay. my old boss does not choose for things to be that way, rather it is entirely a natural pattern based on how the architects started their careers.
which is to say education does seem to matter. but personality perhaps matters more.
or at least that is how anecdotal evidence makes things look.
for the record, i dont care what uni potential staff went to, but do care that they can think. i do think uni gives us all a head start in that way.
I will always considered myself....."otherwise driven"
I have kicked around in Architecture since I was 18 and have never looked back. I started at the bottom as a go-for...in a firm. You know they kid who goes for everything, like lunch, feed the car meter, pick up prints at the engineers office, drop off this a city hall.
I studied at the BAC (Boston Architectural Center) back in the day when I worked in Beantown and also held a full time job. The oil crash of the 70's sent me back out west. Where I studied Landscape Architecture and Art for a year and a half.
Then I wandered farther West and worked in a firm in the upper Rockies. Working on a number of solar projects. I left there when I
learned the next project I was to be working on was a Womens State
Prision.
Traveled to the Southwest where I found a job in an Architecture Firm. After working a couple years I decided to head back to school,
which was forunate because of the slowdown in the market. I had
one of those awkward reviews, where the Senior Partner said there would be no raises. So I spilled the beans and let him know I was
headed back to school in the fall. Would you know they let me go
a couple of weeks later. I think I was unemployed a whole week before I was working in another office. I actually had three offers.
Went to the University of Arizona full time and continued to work in an office for three years. I grew tired of the University enviroment.
So after a long summer decided not to continue my education.
Moved up the road to Phoenix where I worked for three years. Met a lady from Connecticut and moved there when there was a slowdown in the Southwest in the late 1980's.
While in Arizona petitioned to take the Architectural Registration Exam , and was allowed to do so. Started exam process then moved to Connecticut.
Knocked around Connecticut in the last slow down. Worked in three different offices. Returned to Arizona to finish exam, while remaining in Connecticut. Passed all exams in Arizona, and became registered.
Petitioned Connecticut Architectural Registration Board to become licensed in Connecticut. Granted license. Still working in a firm.
Left firm to going an older architect as a partner. It didn't work out so hung my own shingle and that was twelve years ago.
Having heard of all the quirks of NCARB, I have never filled out the form work for registration.
Oh ya for the guy who thinks people who don't have a degree can't design, you must have your head in the sand. Bruce Goff never had a degree neither did Frank Lloyd Wright.
I would however like to have had the opportunity to have gone to school without working full time. However I have 5 brothers and sisters and their just wasn't enough money to go around. So we all worked and went to school. So stayed in and others found their paths
in life on there own, by starting businesses.
great story snook and bones
i think there should be a license exam to be an arch. that doenst make you go down the traditional route of school/idp/etc..... then if you want sme hottness/etc then you can take another few exams for your hottness statis and then you recieve you button and bumper sticker
that was the reason i got my builders license after college..... even though i was limited on some projects, i still was able to work on some things
b
crizzler....I was managing projects when I was in school with people with Master's working under my direction. No one seemed to care if I had a degree or not. I brought things to the table and so did they and it all worked out.
crizzler: it is the state boards that determine whether someone can test.
The tests are administered by NCARB, so no, there's no way to test "out of NCARB" - but it isn't NCARB who determines whether you're allowed to test. It's the rules of the state that you're testing through.
Some people decide to test "through" states that allow early testing, or testing without a degree, even though they're really living and taking the tests in a completely different state. That's fine (I think only Oklahoma and Tennessee have residency requirements), but it's not a guarantee that they'll be able to transfer their record to their actual state later and get licensed there - or even that they'll be eligible for reciprocity.
Examples of a few different actual scenarios:
1. Candidate is in Connecticut and isn't finished with IDP, but wants to start testing. He has his council record sent to Texas and applies to take tests. Texas approves him and he takes tests in Connecticut, but all results are being sent from NCARB to Texas to candidate. He finished IDP while testing or shortly afterward, has record transmitted again to Connecticut, applies for license in Connecticut, and is granted license - because while CT doesn't allow early testing, they don't have any rule against licensing someone who tested early through another state's rules.
2. Candidate is in Pennsylvania and isn't finished with IDP, but wants to start testing. He has his council record sent to Texas and applies to take tests. Texas approves him and he takes tests in Pennsylvania, but all results are being sent from NCARB to Texas to candidate. He finished IDP while testing or shortly afterward, has record transmitted again to Pennsylvania. But Pennsylvania rejects his license application, on the basis that he tested early, which is against that state's rules. His choices now: either test again, or apply for license in Texas, apply to get NCARB cetified, then seek reciprocity in Pennsylvania.
3. Candidate never went to college, but wants to take ARE. He has 9 years of documented full time experience in architecture firms. He lives in New Jersey. NJ's board has a rule that requires an NCARB degree. He has his record transmitted to Vermont. Vermont approves him to test, on the basis of experience. He tests in NJ, and once he passes all tests he gets licensed in Vermont. He thinks that this will automatically allow him to get reciprocity in NJ. When he tries this he finds out that NJ will not grant reciprocity under any circumstances without an NCARB degree.
4. Same candidate as in #3, but he lives in Texas. Texas won't let him test there because he has no degree. He gets licensed through Vermont. He seeks reciprocity in Texas. Texas grants reciprocity, on the basis that he has a license in another state.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that the rules of each state vary hugely, and that all the possible interactions of rules of multiple states can have hundreds of different ramifications for where/if candidates can get registered, and what order they must do things in.
And NCARB really has nothing to do with it, except that they administer the tests and keep all the records - and collect all the fees - which can be quite substantial in some of these scenarios, considering that there are annual dues involved with certification, and a $300 fee every time you transmit your record, and fees for starting a council record and fees for the exams...
understandable.....
thanks
needle...that is why I think NCARB is SCREWING EVERYONE!
While they operate in a Wall Street Fashion.....big pay for the Top Dogs while dumping on the rest to put it kindly.
I don't think they have done anything for the Profession in the last 50 years.
kool story snook.
based on above NCARB has nothing to do with the screwing. they are simply bureaucrats, recording results. it is the states who are messing with the people...
i love japan. one test for entire nation. one building code for entire nation. one zoning law for entire nation...they deal with all of that by being flexible, performance based rather than prescriptive...not that it leads to better architecture and anyway they are talking about copying the american system...the gods know why...
Japan's licensing/code/zoning practice is not a model for the rest of the world which operates under different geophysical/political conditions that may require more variation in the operation.
That said, anything in America is monied-prey for those who already have enough money to make more money - including the organizations 'responsible' for 'making people architects'.
School is a very appropriate way to learn to design and lay a foundation for design in architectural thinking over purely technical resoluteness. Becoming an architect with a foundation in business thinking is different than becoming an architect with a foundation in design thinking, and neither is more prestigious or righteous than the other, and in fact, they need each other for a work of architecture to function.
....
So there.
who said it was, peri?
although japan's planning system is more a model for the world than america's, in my not particularly humble opinion.
i have practiced architecture under NCARB, ARB and Japanese system over last 20 years. the flexibility of the japanese system was an eye-opener when i first came here, but i think UK system (though flawed) offered nice middle road. NCARB in canada was incredibly frustrating, especially since i have lived for so many years as an ex-pat. flexibility doesn't seem to be part of that system.
of course other countries are even more interesting. dutch system or french system will give you license if you have recognised degree (with little to no experience in office), and in sweden the system is not protected by law at all....
the one thing that does seem to be recognised across nations however is a degree in architecture. i don't think it is really necessary to become good architect, but for better or worse most of the world does.
interesting.... no idp and they have some options too... only thing is that since theres no idp then why do they mention ncarb as record keepers.
then if i go here
http://www.azbtr.gov/forms/professional_application_packets.asp#architects
i think all i have to do is fill these out then submit them.....
i'm confused..hahahahah.... go figure...this stuff makes me angry..
arivas, with a degree in Construction Technology, you can assume a variety of roles in the industry working for a contractor, representing an owner, etc.
If you're not passionate about actually studying architecture why bother becoming an architect at all? What is your motivation to join an oversaturated profession?
this is interesting:
why would you want to be an architect without learning to design?
seems like there are enough architect's out there already that don't know how to design.
no offense trace, but if there are already enough architects out there who don't know how to design, what was the point of school again?
I guess all of us who busted our asses in school would really resent it if you were able to get a license. I doubt you could do it in CA. I hope not. Only because I went back to school for a B. Arch at a time when I could have just stayed at the office for 3 more years before sitting for written & graphic divisions. Which I kind of regret, due to massive loans I could have past on. The B.Arch. means a great deal to me, but I think the days of hanging a piece of paper on the wall is almost gone. People are more impressed with ability not credetials. A guy from ITT Tech who knows CAD and 3D software could give a B.Arch. holder a run for his money. I've seen it. But they will never be able to get licensed.... I hope.
if the state boards and agencies allow for work experience to count in the same manner that school does, how are they busting their ass any less?
you may be right that abilities matter more than credentials, but credentials will open more doors generally, and get more compensation, generally, than a lack thereof.
the fact that someone took the ARE's after 8 or 9 years of work experience doesn't denigrate or devalue your hard work in the slightest.
I give people with work experience mad props, no doubt. Especially someone who started out in construction and then to have a desire to get an achitectural degree. I see that as a true path. The same would go for a person out of a trade school, I guess. I just see a degree as being important in our profession, a B. Arch. I also think a B.Arch should be required for teaching, not just an undergrad in english and a M.Arch. There is something very important for a mind to go through studio, it helps the thinking and analytical process and brings more to the table.
I think there is a key issue everyone is missing here.
It is not the job of the state boards to regulate architecture such that they can ensure good design. Rather, it is their job to regulate architecture to ensure the health, safety and welfare of the public.
Taking this into account, I personally see no reason school should be required for licensing. My schooling never dealt with health safety, or welfare.
On the other hand, I think that AIA and NCARB membership SHOULD require a pre-professional design degree to ensure that there is a difference between an architect who can ensure the public good, and one who can also do so with a nod to the best use of the space.
this is some pretty subjective reasoning here. NCARB and the AIA can no more ensure good design than the Division of Motor Vehicles can ensure that a licensed driver will take the quickest route from point A to point B.
dcozb wrote
"I guess all of us who busted our asses in school would really resent it if you were able to get a license. I doubt you could do it in CA. I hope not. "
Why would you hope not? I am halfway through my exams. I have worked with two well known successful Architects. My design abilities, structural knowledge, and overall Architectural practice knowledge has EARNED me well above average compensation, and extremely happy clients! All without attending a University. If you have to attend college to learn how to design, then perhaps you may not have the ability to begin with.
The thread leaning toward the thought of the non traditional route towards licensure as having less design ability, or knowledge of requirements regarding health and public safety is ignorant.
There are great places to learn things, and most are not kept in that magical institution of education of "higher learning".
I will take my experience with actual projects, with actual clients, with actual budgets, and actual schedules, over your "studio" experience any day. Getting a real project designed and built can take a good bit of "thinking" too.
hah. he said magical.
You are absolutley correct, and my hat off to you. There was once a time, if you read what I wrote, that I too could have continued on to exams without a degree. My boss was the national president of the AIA, and he tried to keep me from going to a University. I had an AA and was a manual draftsman. I'm just a bit resentful that I didn't listen. I guess those of us that did go to school hold our degrees in such regard because of the time, effort, and money (loans). And like I said before, the times have changed. I'm not ignorant, just resentful of a cituation. You are a man (or woman) of talent and perseverence and you clearly love architecture and deserve to be licensed. Don't take everything you read here too seriously, please. And read everything someone wrote before you start calling people names, or judging them. You have the type of background that a true architect should have, experience. There are too many non-prepared graduates out there and it's a big problem. Read the thread about "thinning the forest".
cudos
everyone here deserves some kudos:
myL: I did a bit of both School and Work. There are merits to both methods of coming into this Profession. I just don't think the Profession should be so narrow minded as to eliminate the course of
apprenticing into the profession. It will keep the door open for those
who are better at the hands on kind of experience than the slow drawn out studio experience. I worked with an Architect years ago who inspired me in alot of ways...actually every architect I have worked for has brought inspiration to me in one way or another.
We lived close to one another and so would often walk from Harvard Square past Gund Hall on our way home and our conversations would
be about all sorts of things as he was originally from Columbia, and had studied in Columbian, Italy and France along with working in Denmark and of course the USA. He was a designer and not one for putting projects together. So his life was like poetry. What he said to me one day I will always carry with me. "There is only one good designer for every ten architects who profess to be designers." I have found that it does hold true after working in many parts of the country in assorted sizes of firms, and having been on my own for a number of years. People can wax poetic about their abilities coming out of univesity, but there is the real world. It is what you make it, not how you think about it. I chose the root of a small firm for myself, because I office politics between a husband and wife is not good, and any firm larger requires office politics. I have no desire to command a ship of people. I have respect of my community and of my clients. The work which comes out of our office is of two people and I always let people know that as my wife is the other architect.
She comes with a degree and I might add was at the top of her class.
She is the one who does the social marketing. Being from Brazil, she is culturally a friendly person, yet she is also quick in many aspect in that she speaks five languages, has lived in four different countries and has traveled extensively. We work semi-independent of one another, yet always seek out advice of the other. Then there is always the task of putting out documents which are valuable documents to the builder. This task is shared but an essential aspect of quality design. Yes Architecture is much more than sketchy lines and mystic verbal statements. Architecture is our livelyhood.
I have an M.Arch degree from Sunny, Buffalo & about 16 years of USA experience in the field of architecture. I am licensed in Indian subcontinent area. Is there any way I can get an Architects registration in any state?
I will appreciate a response via an e-mail
Thank You,
Hamnas
*)^*((%$&$%(O&^)& why didn't someone tell me I could become an architect without a degree?
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