after listening to an NPR article about the new MLK Memorial in Washington DC (which is being designed by an African American architect) I was wondering what people think about having black architects design black buildings because it is the politicaly correct thing to do
rfuller
Dec 6, 07 12:27 am
ditto the langston hughes library.
- sw
Am I the only one who gets "Mr. Backlash" stuck in my head when I hear the name Langston Hughes?
As far as black architects vs. white architects vs. latin/hispanic architects vs. asian architects, etc... I always think back to one of my highschool history teachers.
His conclusion to the class on the last day of school went something like this:
As long as we call people White, Middle-class Americans, or African Americans, or Hispanic Americans, or Asian Americans, or whatever kind of Americans you can think of, there will always be discrimination. Until we can all just be Americans there will always be some sort of racism, sexism, or general discrimination.
The PC crowd thinks they're doing us all a favor by trying to ensure equality for all these different groups, but all they're doing is ensuring the continuation of the separation of the public into groups. Political correctness just perpetuates discrimination under the guise of promoting equality. Don't buy the hype kids. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.
We are Americans. We are not white, or black, or brown, or yellow. We are not upper-class, middle-class, or lower-class. We are Americans, plain and simple. And the sooner you realize that, and the sooner you live by that, and the sooner you think like that, the better off you'll be.
I try to live my life by those thoughts. Skin color should have no more influence on who gets a job than eye color or shoe size. We are all just people.
Steven Ward
Dec 6, 07 7:28 am
at risk of getting into a conversation that will go nowhere, i have to say, rf, that there is some wisdom in that teacher's comments, but that it's not a very empathetic position - too black-and-white, you might say.
while i might not identify someone as african american or asian american, THEY certainly have the right to self-identify as such. just as, if i were so inclined, i might identify myself as an irish/german american. it allows people to feel some continuity with a personal history and a culture bigger than their family unit.
your instructor labeling people pc and calling hyphenated descriptions 'hype' is at least as short-sighted and unhelpful. probably more damaging because it is a judgment that attempt to squash discussion.
shifting gears to another part of your teacher's comments:
in fact we ARE white, black, brown, etc. while it certainly shouldn't be a fact on which anyone should be judged, skin color is a fact and it's a useful way to distinguish ourselves. i'm the very-white guy with freckles. my wife is the beautiful olive-skinned brunette. someone might be the skinny asian guy with gray spiky hair. someone else might be the black woman with glasses and a big purse.
in both cases - race description and color description - color blindness can be taken too far, be understood as too much of an absolute. it may be just as damaging not to acknowledge a person's race and the history and culture that comes with it as it is to pretend it makes no difference. you have to take people as they are.
vado retro
Dec 6, 07 7:35 am
we judge people all the time. this forum is very perjorative. not in regard to race or gender, but in regard to taste, style, lifestyle choice etc.
21Ronin
Dec 6, 07 10:34 am
Agreed vado retro, steven ward and rfuller. I am Native American (Blackfoot Tribe), African American, English, German, Norwegian and French. I am identified as black in Minneapolis (where I was born), but I have been asked if I am French, Dominican, Indian (SE Asian) and basically every other country in the Carribean. I have a completely different take on this whole race issue that is not aligned with one specific race. While MLK definitely wanted a universal respect for man (regardless of race), he fought for the rights of the people that were being discriminated against, oppressed, repressed, beaten and isolated. Although he fought for civil rights of all people yes, but it was fueled by his experience as a black person (of his era). Right before he was killed, he was also fighting to improve the slum conditions of the near West Side of Chicago. I do not intend to negate his work on civil rights, but he had an overall strategy about improving the conditions of African Americans directly and everyone else that were being treated unjustly because they share this common experience.
David Cuthbert
Dec 6, 07 11:01 am
mdler it was no offense to you, or anyone here, but I have seen the argument published prior, not as a critical investigation as you have obviously stated but as a potential platform.
21Ronin, avoid being offended by someone asking if you are a student/professional - I found myself asking the question too; not to discredit your opinion rather your position or optic. Notwithstanding I share some of your views FLW was a cult leader, and many of the things he openly criticised in the media as being masonic he copied and was guilty of in his own life/works.
Once race/colour gets brought into the argument on ones talents or appropriateness to design any structure, even if it is a monument to Martin Luther King, Jr - the message gets lost. One may percieve that the award to someone who is black is a good thing, but then professionally the architect is decredited by those that think oh its because he's black or worse that he could only design a monument relative to blacks in america (forgive me for the use of black versus african american...I am aiming to be more inclusive of those that might be Afro-Cuban, Afro-Caribbean, etc)
21Ronin
Dec 6, 07 11:34 am
Ideally, the architect would be selected based on their performance. I think we can all agree on that. But, the board that selects the architect/designer determines who will be selected. For a project like this, a MLK memorial in DC, if the board is mainly black (or whatever pc term applies) it is more likely that the architect would be selected if they were black. It seems like there is a consensus that credentials are more important than race, but to the people making the decisions, it may not always be the case. Architects being as competitive and egotistical as we are, we feel confident in our abilities enough to be able to let our performance speak for itself (on some level). More often than not, architects/designers are not on the boards making these kind of decisions. So, as much as we would like to say that color doesn't matter, it does matter to other people. I think its a positive thing that so many architects think that a person's work should speak for itself, it could be nested in our psychology. People come from a variety of backgrounds and in many minority communities, racism runs rampant as much as in the majority.
David Cuthbert
Dec 6, 07 12:42 pm
hence why most of those competitions are anonymous (it is part of the RIBA competition requirements, although I am not sure about the US)
21Ronin
Dec 6, 07 12:43 pm
I love the fact that they are anonymous.
David Cuthbert
Feb 4, 08 3:31 pm
I thought i would add something else to the table, since we are having the discussion of black architects, black buildings etc...with [b]blacks in architecture[/i]...we in this case renderings. By these imagery you would think that New Orleans was only populated by African Americans - granted they do make up 67%.
but take a look [b]blacks in architecture[/i]
david adjaye
morphosis
pugh & scarpa
some of the others have used ghost images - which I think really adds to the humour of all of this.
David Cuthbert
Feb 4, 08 3:33 pm
sorry about the misplace parenthesis - the emphasis is now lost
blacks in architecture
the lady in the middle image looks like lil john - "oh yeah!"
holz.box
Feb 4, 08 4:04 pm
if it were a project in norway, i might think it was humorous.
are pugh & scarpa proposing palettes for the exterior of the house?
waxwings
Feb 4, 08 4:22 pm
beyond black architects pointed out here, there are a few threads on the subject. i believe that the stats would likely support a trend of "black buildings" going to "black architects". examples:
it makes a great deal of sense that a knowledge of the african american experience ("black" needs to be qualified) would play a role in the selection of an architect. in this case, race is secondary to culture. it's too bad bill clinton hasn't dabbled in architecture.
David Cuthbert
Feb 4, 08 5:40 pm
good point wax but I'm not sure one can seperate culture from race. I am of african decent but identify myself as west indian - because that is the optic that I view the world from, further being from a cosmopolitian society with folks of varying origins that believe they are of one holistic race.
xtbl
Feb 4, 08 5:49 pm
"out of many, one" is jamaica's slogan right?
David Cuthbert
Feb 4, 08 6:07 pm
absolutely!!
Charles Ellinwood
Feb 6, 08 4:41 pm
i think this topic is a bit misinformed....
the MLK memorial was/is not "designed" by a black firm.
the firm that is the architect of record is McKissack & McKissack of Washington, Inc. i guess they would be called a "black" firm...whatever that is.
perhaps the choice was political and if so, ironic. it seems to me that such a choice is not at all in the spirit of Dr. King's dream to judge/select someone based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character.
Richard Balkins
Feb 1, 23 12:28 pm
Do you realize you are resurrecting a thread from 15 YEARS ago?
Sure, the subject matter seems relevant considering the less hairy primates still haven't evolved past all the bullshit and racism of some form. Probably still be the case 15,000 years from now.
Non Sequitur
Feb 1, 23 12:35 pm
New user zombie jesus' this thread to discuss about colonising mars.
after listening to an NPR article about the new MLK Memorial in Washington DC (which is being designed by an African American architect) I was wondering what people think about having black architects design black buildings because it is the politicaly correct thing to do
- sw
Am I the only one who gets "Mr. Backlash" stuck in my head when I hear the name Langston Hughes?
As far as black architects vs. white architects vs. latin/hispanic architects vs. asian architects, etc... I always think back to one of my highschool history teachers.
His conclusion to the class on the last day of school went something like this:
As long as we call people White, Middle-class Americans, or African Americans, or Hispanic Americans, or Asian Americans, or whatever kind of Americans you can think of, there will always be discrimination. Until we can all just be Americans there will always be some sort of racism, sexism, or general discrimination.
The PC crowd thinks they're doing us all a favor by trying to ensure equality for all these different groups, but all they're doing is ensuring the continuation of the separation of the public into groups. Political correctness just perpetuates discrimination under the guise of promoting equality. Don't buy the hype kids. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.
We are Americans. We are not white, or black, or brown, or yellow. We are not upper-class, middle-class, or lower-class. We are Americans, plain and simple. And the sooner you realize that, and the sooner you live by that, and the sooner you think like that, the better off you'll be.
I try to live my life by those thoughts. Skin color should have no more influence on who gets a job than eye color or shoe size. We are all just people.
at risk of getting into a conversation that will go nowhere, i have to say, rf, that there is some wisdom in that teacher's comments, but that it's not a very empathetic position - too black-and-white, you might say.
while i might not identify someone as african american or asian american, THEY certainly have the right to self-identify as such. just as, if i were so inclined, i might identify myself as an irish/german american. it allows people to feel some continuity with a personal history and a culture bigger than their family unit.
your instructor labeling people pc and calling hyphenated descriptions 'hype' is at least as short-sighted and unhelpful. probably more damaging because it is a judgment that attempt to squash discussion.
shifting gears to another part of your teacher's comments:
in fact we ARE white, black, brown, etc. while it certainly shouldn't be a fact on which anyone should be judged, skin color is a fact and it's a useful way to distinguish ourselves. i'm the very-white guy with freckles. my wife is the beautiful olive-skinned brunette. someone might be the skinny asian guy with gray spiky hair. someone else might be the black woman with glasses and a big purse.
in both cases - race description and color description - color blindness can be taken too far, be understood as too much of an absolute. it may be just as damaging not to acknowledge a person's race and the history and culture that comes with it as it is to pretend it makes no difference. you have to take people as they are.
we judge people all the time. this forum is very perjorative. not in regard to race or gender, but in regard to taste, style, lifestyle choice etc.
Agreed vado retro, steven ward and rfuller. I am Native American (Blackfoot Tribe), African American, English, German, Norwegian and French. I am identified as black in Minneapolis (where I was born), but I have been asked if I am French, Dominican, Indian (SE Asian) and basically every other country in the Carribean. I have a completely different take on this whole race issue that is not aligned with one specific race. While MLK definitely wanted a universal respect for man (regardless of race), he fought for the rights of the people that were being discriminated against, oppressed, repressed, beaten and isolated. Although he fought for civil rights of all people yes, but it was fueled by his experience as a black person (of his era). Right before he was killed, he was also fighting to improve the slum conditions of the near West Side of Chicago. I do not intend to negate his work on civil rights, but he had an overall strategy about improving the conditions of African Americans directly and everyone else that were being treated unjustly because they share this common experience.
mdler it was no offense to you, or anyone here, but I have seen the argument published prior, not as a critical investigation as you have obviously stated but as a potential platform.
21Ronin, avoid being offended by someone asking if you are a student/professional - I found myself asking the question too; not to discredit your opinion rather your position or optic. Notwithstanding I share some of your views FLW was a cult leader, and many of the things he openly criticised in the media as being masonic he copied and was guilty of in his own life/works.
Once race/colour gets brought into the argument on ones talents or appropriateness to design any structure, even if it is a monument to Martin Luther King, Jr - the message gets lost. One may percieve that the award to someone who is black is a good thing, but then professionally the architect is decredited by those that think oh its because he's black or worse that he could only design a monument relative to blacks in america (forgive me for the use of black versus african american...I am aiming to be more inclusive of those that might be Afro-Cuban, Afro-Caribbean, etc)
Ideally, the architect would be selected based on their performance. I think we can all agree on that. But, the board that selects the architect/designer determines who will be selected. For a project like this, a MLK memorial in DC, if the board is mainly black (or whatever pc term applies) it is more likely that the architect would be selected if they were black. It seems like there is a consensus that credentials are more important than race, but to the people making the decisions, it may not always be the case. Architects being as competitive and egotistical as we are, we feel confident in our abilities enough to be able to let our performance speak for itself (on some level). More often than not, architects/designers are not on the boards making these kind of decisions. So, as much as we would like to say that color doesn't matter, it does matter to other people. I think its a positive thing that so many architects think that a person's work should speak for itself, it could be nested in our psychology. People come from a variety of backgrounds and in many minority communities, racism runs rampant as much as in the majority.
hence why most of those competitions are anonymous (it is part of the RIBA competition requirements, although I am not sure about the US)
I love the fact that they are anonymous.
I thought i would add something else to the table, since we are having the discussion of black architects, black buildings etc...with [b]blacks in architecture[/i]...we in this case renderings. By these imagery you would think that New Orleans was only populated by African Americans - granted they do make up 67%.
but take a look [b]blacks in architecture[/i]
david adjaye
morphosis
pugh & scarpa
some of the others have used ghost images - which I think really adds to the humour of all of this.
sorry about the misplace parenthesis - the emphasis is now lost
blacks in architecture
the lady in the middle image looks like lil john - "oh yeah!"
if it were a project in norway, i might think it was humorous.
are pugh & scarpa proposing palettes for the exterior of the house?
beyond black architects pointed out here, there are a few threads on the subject. i believe that the stats would likely support a trend of "black buildings" going to "black architects". examples:
freelon
huff
it makes a great deal of sense that a knowledge of the african american experience ("black" needs to be qualified) would play a role in the selection of an architect. in this case, race is secondary to culture. it's too bad bill clinton hasn't dabbled in architecture.
good point wax but I'm not sure one can seperate culture from race. I am of african decent but identify myself as west indian - because that is the optic that I view the world from, further being from a cosmopolitian society with folks of varying origins that believe they are of one holistic race.
"out of many, one" is jamaica's slogan right?
absolutely!!
i think this topic is a bit misinformed....
the MLK memorial was/is not "designed" by a black firm.
roma design group won the competition. http://roma.com/mlkmemorial.html
as near i can tell, they aren't "black".
the firm that is the architect of record is McKissack & McKissack of Washington, Inc. i guess they would be called a "black" firm...whatever that is.
perhaps the choice was political and if so, ironic. it seems to me that such a choice is not at all in the spirit of Dr. King's dream to judge/select someone based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character.
Do you realize you are resurrecting a thread from 15 YEARS ago?
Sure, the subject matter seems relevant considering the less hairy primates still haven't evolved past all the bullshit and racism of some form. Probably still be the case 15,000 years from now.
New user zombie jesus' this thread to discuss about colonising mars.