I recently purchased some West System expoxy (105) and hardener (206). I'm applying it (along with a fiberglass weave) to a natural birch plywood. I want to add some color pigment to the expoxy for a translucent finish. West suggests several options to do this. One is to use any one of their product (420 aluminum powder, 423 graphite powder, 501 white and 503 gray - each with their own characteristics). Two, tile grout pigment or three tempera paint pigment.
To get familiar with the material, I've been working on some test samples. I tried black tempera powder first since it was readily available. I mixed thouroughly and applied but was not impressed. I can plainly see tons of tiny pigment granuals in the expoxy. For my next batch of tests, I will probably try some of the 503 gray pigment but am curious of my other options. Does anyone have any experience with using any of the West pigments or other types of coloring agents? Since I'm relatively new to this stuff, I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for in terms of final finish but am aiming for a translucent coat where you can still see some of the birch wood grain.
Thanks!
binary
Mar 24, 07 12:02 am
well, the west system is an epoxy based system
regular fiberglass from home depot is a polyester system
are you trying to build up from the birch or using the birch for a flat surface?..... try food coloring or ink.........
ether-
i've used latex paint pigments with west system epoxy- it's just the stuff that any hardware store has in their machine behind the paint counter. it's liquid, so it's really easy to mix. it's tough to get consistent colors, because yo uneed so little per batch of epoxy, and liquid is a bit harder to weigh than powder pigments.
i don't know what kind of performance characteristics this porject reqiures- i was using it over styrene forms- it held up well, and didn't seem to lose any adhesive strength.
PerCorell
Mar 24, 07 11:42 am
-------- Just remember that you must avoid water soluted pigment , not the pigment itself but adding water, at best water will make an opaque touch at vorse it will destroy everything. Some uses denatured alchohol to thin these epoxy products that basicly are all the same, don't do that as such alchohol contain up to 8 pct. water. but be free tu use it to clean tools and spoil. Best advise I guess would be color that will be soluted in alchohol and make a clear color to see thru, gold or silver flakes proberly also add to the the reflection I seen this used and it make a nice effect but proberly difficult to find ,Alu will newer leave the metal touch you would expect as it partly turn gray , well then my last advise is to know that glasfiber is used for both polyester and epoxyes but, it need to be the type you uses for boats building as it need to carry a sealer that only these qualities do.
ether
Mar 25, 07 5:42 pm
thanks for the insight folks.
colcol, i used some acrylic liquid stuff (the stuff in the little bottles you can find at any art store). it turned the mixture really really "stringy" and the color was not very even across the birch surface. i wasn't really impressed with it either... have you had the same experience?
i just bought some tube oil paint and oil block printing ink. I will run some more tests tonight.
the final piece will need to be structural. the first stage is laminating 1/8" birch on both sides of 2" polystyrene (homemade "SIP"). after that i will attach several of these SIPS together and use the weave (fiberglass fabric) to give it a stiffness. so yeah it will matter quite a bit if i start to lose some of the epoxy performance. west recommends no more that 5% pigment per mix.
i'm going to call west tomorrow to see what they might suggest. i just wanted to throw this thread out over the weekend to see where it might lead. if anyone else wants to offer their .02, i would greatly appreciate it!
thanks.
liberty bell
Mar 25, 07 10:45 pm
ether, I forwarded this to Brian to see if he has any help - he's done tons of work with resins. He's in Chicago tonight so if I hear from him I'll post it tomorrow.
Everyone reading this, from what I've seen ether's project will be awesome when he gets it all figured out!
ether
Mar 25, 07 11:19 pm
thanks lb! i was hoping you'd stumble across this thread.
yes, well let's hope i can pull this off. i laminated the first side of my first "SIP" panel tonight. garry and i came up with a pretty nice detail to join them together. next big hurdle will be figuring out the "cubbie" details..... which i'm dreading. i'm hoping the UPS note from friday is for the batteries i ordered.. it's slowly coming together!
garpike
Mar 26, 07 1:09 am
vinpust is right. Tempera is intended for water solution. You may want to look at dyes dissolved in alcohol - that is to say no solids other than the dye itself (no acrylics).
As for translucent finishes, try dying the wood and then adding the clear resin on top of this. You'll get more depth from the grain.
Check out the dyes here. The stains can be reduce in alcohol and applied directly. Works great.
(And if you really want something accessible (and cheap), use food coloring as a stain on the bare wood. You can reduce it in water - all colors possible. Just be sure to let the piece dry overnight before applying resin to prevent clouding.)
A Center for Ants?
Mar 26, 07 4:34 am
instead of a pigment (which is opaque and actually particles of color), i'd suggest trying to use a tint. the tint will give you a more transparent/translucent finish.
i'm sure you can order some online or at any fiberglass supply store.
liberty bell
Mar 26, 07 9:58 am
Here is Brian's response:
---
Adding any powdered dry pigment will lead to grains and opacity. If you are looking to pigment the resin and retain the translucency you will have to use a transparent liquid pigment. There is a cheap casting acrylic you can buy at most any hobby/craft store or art supply called "Cast-n-craft". They make liquid pigments for their product that will work in your epoxy resin.
The other source is Polytek (http://www.polytek.com/) The product they sell is Polypigment? - it is also transparent and comes in liquid form. Both these products colors can be mixed to produce variations of color and % color to resin mix will produce darker or lighter results (and I think 10% pigment to resin may be max but the tech help at Polytek can confirm). I am certain both will work with the West resin. There is one other alternative - using Tintsall pigments that can be purchased from most house paint suppliers - though these colors will produce an opaque color. Hope that helps.
---
Liberty again. I haven't followed closely enough to know if his info is anything new. I know every time Brian has cast something and talked to Polytek they have been incredibly helpful, he always raves about them!
liberty bell
Mar 26, 07 10:07 am
Oh and one more thing from Brian:
I noticed something about consistent color - once testing gives him the color and transparency he wants - he will want to pigment the whole "batch"/product (the B side?) and catalyze smaller quantities from the "master" to do layup. That will give consistency to color.
ether
Mar 26, 07 12:54 pm
thank you guys very much (and tell brian thank you, lb). this is good stuff. i'll let you know how it turns out.
David Cuthbert
Mar 27, 07 4:05 pm
i think i want to try that...hopefully i'll meet some clients not wanting to tile the whole bloody thing as usual
jstarick87
Apr 20, 18 5:46 pm
Testors model car paint tried and true, couple drops goes a very long way
I recently purchased some West System expoxy (105) and hardener (206). I'm applying it (along with a fiberglass weave) to a natural birch plywood. I want to add some color pigment to the expoxy for a translucent finish. West suggests several options to do this. One is to use any one of their product (420 aluminum powder, 423 graphite powder, 501 white and 503 gray - each with their own characteristics). Two, tile grout pigment or three tempera paint pigment.
To get familiar with the material, I've been working on some test samples. I tried black tempera powder first since it was readily available. I mixed thouroughly and applied but was not impressed. I can plainly see tons of tiny pigment granuals in the expoxy. For my next batch of tests, I will probably try some of the 503 gray pigment but am curious of my other options. Does anyone have any experience with using any of the West pigments or other types of coloring agents? Since I'm relatively new to this stuff, I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for in terms of final finish but am aiming for a translucent coat where you can still see some of the birch wood grain.
Thanks!
well, the west system is an epoxy based system
regular fiberglass from home depot is a polyester system
are you trying to build up from the birch or using the birch for a flat surface?..... try food coloring or ink.........
b
ether-
i've used latex paint pigments with west system epoxy- it's just the stuff that any hardware store has in their machine behind the paint counter. it's liquid, so it's really easy to mix. it's tough to get consistent colors, because yo uneed so little per batch of epoxy, and liquid is a bit harder to weigh than powder pigments.
i don't know what kind of performance characteristics this porject reqiures- i was using it over styrene forms- it held up well, and didn't seem to lose any adhesive strength.
-------- Just remember that you must avoid water soluted pigment , not the pigment itself but adding water, at best water will make an opaque touch at vorse it will destroy everything. Some uses denatured alchohol to thin these epoxy products that basicly are all the same, don't do that as such alchohol contain up to 8 pct. water. but be free tu use it to clean tools and spoil. Best advise I guess would be color that will be soluted in alchohol and make a clear color to see thru, gold or silver flakes proberly also add to the the reflection I seen this used and it make a nice effect but proberly difficult to find ,Alu will newer leave the metal touch you would expect as it partly turn gray , well then my last advise is to know that glasfiber is used for both polyester and epoxyes but, it need to be the type you uses for boats building as it need to carry a sealer that only these qualities do.
thanks for the insight folks.
colcol, i used some acrylic liquid stuff (the stuff in the little bottles you can find at any art store). it turned the mixture really really "stringy" and the color was not very even across the birch surface. i wasn't really impressed with it either... have you had the same experience?
i just bought some tube oil paint and oil block printing ink. I will run some more tests tonight.
the final piece will need to be structural. the first stage is laminating 1/8" birch on both sides of 2" polystyrene (homemade "SIP"). after that i will attach several of these SIPS together and use the weave (fiberglass fabric) to give it a stiffness. so yeah it will matter quite a bit if i start to lose some of the epoxy performance. west recommends no more that 5% pigment per mix.
i'm going to call west tomorrow to see what they might suggest. i just wanted to throw this thread out over the weekend to see where it might lead. if anyone else wants to offer their .02, i would greatly appreciate it!
thanks.
ether, I forwarded this to Brian to see if he has any help - he's done tons of work with resins. He's in Chicago tonight so if I hear from him I'll post it tomorrow.
Everyone reading this, from what I've seen ether's project will be awesome when he gets it all figured out!
thanks lb! i was hoping you'd stumble across this thread.
yes, well let's hope i can pull this off. i laminated the first side of my first "SIP" panel tonight. garry and i came up with a pretty nice detail to join them together. next big hurdle will be figuring out the "cubbie" details..... which i'm dreading. i'm hoping the UPS note from friday is for the batteries i ordered.. it's slowly coming together!
vinpust is right. Tempera is intended for water solution. You may want to look at dyes dissolved in alcohol - that is to say no solids other than the dye itself (no acrylics).
As for translucent finishes, try dying the wood and then adding the clear resin on top of this. You'll get more depth from the grain.
Check out the dyes here. The stains can be reduce in alcohol and applied directly. Works great.
(And if you really want something accessible (and cheap), use food coloring as a stain on the bare wood. You can reduce it in water - all colors possible. Just be sure to let the piece dry overnight before applying resin to prevent clouding.)
instead of a pigment (which is opaque and actually particles of color), i'd suggest trying to use a tint. the tint will give you a more transparent/translucent finish.
i'm sure you can order some online or at any fiberglass supply store.
Here is Brian's response:
---
Adding any powdered dry pigment will lead to grains and opacity. If you are looking to pigment the resin and retain the translucency you will have to use a transparent liquid pigment. There is a cheap casting acrylic you can buy at most any hobby/craft store or art supply called "Cast-n-craft". They make liquid pigments for their product that will work in your epoxy resin.
The other source is Polytek (http://www.polytek.com/) The product they sell is Polypigment? - it is also transparent and comes in liquid form. Both these products colors can be mixed to produce variations of color and % color to resin mix will produce darker or lighter results (and I think 10% pigment to resin may be max but the tech help at Polytek can confirm). I am certain both will work with the West resin. There is one other alternative - using Tintsall pigments that can be purchased from most house paint suppliers - though these colors will produce an opaque color. Hope that helps.
---
Liberty again. I haven't followed closely enough to know if his info is anything new. I know every time Brian has cast something and talked to Polytek they have been incredibly helpful, he always raves about them!
Oh and one more thing from Brian:
I noticed something about consistent color - once testing gives him the color and transparency he wants - he will want to pigment the whole "batch"/product (the B side?) and catalyze smaller quantities from the "master" to do layup. That will give consistency to color.
thank you guys very much (and tell brian thank you, lb). this is good stuff. i'll let you know how it turns out.
i think i want to try that...hopefully i'll meet some clients not wanting to tile the whole bloody thing as usual
Testors model car paint tried and true, couple drops goes a very long way