We are a small office, in the process of growing to be a slightly large office (we were 4, now upto 10). We did not have a server, just work on individual machines, but as one can imagine its getting to be a disaster, 15 copies of the same file floating around etc etc.
Long story cut short, we are looking into setting up a central server, with tape backups etc, and have got some quotes, some PC-server based (Dell, HP Proliant etc), and some Mac based (G5, Xserve) etc. Though we are a mixed enviroment, i prefer pc based systems, but some it guys prefer mac servers just because osX is easy to script, has solid unix core etc.
What are your experiences with Macintosh servers, especially dealing with huge 100-150 MB photoshop files and such? Please please divulge your experiences!!! Ive looked on other computer forums too, but think its best to get the dirt from design professionals.
Thanks in advance!
Online
Feb 9, 06 6:43 pm
Im a interested too.
When it comes to servers I am clueless.:)
Online
Feb 9, 06 6:43 pm
lol, I'm interested too.
whistler
Feb 9, 06 6:51 pm
We are that firm and for a lot less money we have a designated G5 1.8 that we use as our server. It has a projects folder which have every project we have done over the last 6 years on file. Everyone simply borrows the file for the day and replaces evernight. The G5 has a independant hard drive that it backs up every night at 4:30 and I have a separate hard drive that I back up every other night and take home. it has worked well and have had no problem. everyone is connected to each other if they want to be but mostly we work on our own projects and pass everything back and forth across the machines and then replace it daily. it s somewhat simple but totally reasonable for a smallish firm if you see yourself growing beyond 10 then I would certainly be looking at some other solution. We see ourselves remaining some what boutique size as I don't really want to be the head administration and would rather do the design work too or going skiing.
Online
Feb 9, 06 6:56 pm
But what about PC based servers?
sameolddoctor
Feb 9, 06 7:14 pm
whistler, that seems like a good suggestion-everyone borrows files and returns them later..we were thinking of that too,but the bosses are sometimes too lazy to put the files in the 'right' places, so that will mess things up, hence looking for beefier servers, and wiring the whole place down with (hopefully) fiber...its not too cheap, but not too expensive all the same - thanks
but, we need some more input, please !!
rayray
Feb 9, 06 7:35 pm
worked many years in a large firm with mostly macs and mac servers, we rarely ever had any problems wtih the servers. lots of files and lots of large files with about 25 plus designers hitting the server constantly (plus a couple of people working remotely from other offices). very stable, the only issue that we ever had was that the tape drive went awol - couple of weeks later someone finally noticed that we had not actually backed up the files - got lucky there!
manamana
Feb 9, 06 11:05 pm
why fiber? gigabit over cat6 copper is already faster than a hard drive can read or write.
These are fairly small loads, I doubt you'll see much of a performance difference from a huge amount of processing power.
the things to focus on will be the HD subsystem, and making sure the system and the backup regime are properly setup.
sameolddoctor
Feb 10, 06 1:35 am
fiber was being suggested by one of the it consultants, but thanks for letting me know, maybe he was just getting a quick buck...
but again, manamana, which file server should one go for? PC or Mac ?
FOG Lite
Feb 10, 06 1:43 am
Well, not sure if he was looking for a quick buck. Suggesting fiber to an office already using 150mb files may be saving you future headaches down the line.
2 things on the cable:
-no less than cat6
-pay for the conduit! (We tell our clients to do it in their projects, we shoudl do it too!)
Make sure you get gigabyte switches as well.
David Zeibin
Feb 10, 06 3:16 am
Office I was at this summer used a Dual 2.0 GHz G5 Xserve as the file server. It served about 25 Macs and one PC. Setting up OS X Server to allow both Mac and PC users is a walk in the park. My guess is that a Windows server would require some dedicated staff time to administer, whereas for an office of 10, the techiest person in the office (one familiar with macs) would probably find setting up an Xserve easy. In that same firm, all tech is handled by one architect. Another firm in town uses a similar setup for 40 people. In both cases, everyone routinely works directly off the server. RAID is of course used in both cases and is push-button easy to setup on the Xserve. We used one drive for the system, and storage on two RAID drives. Go gigabit networking everywhere (i.e. switches). Fiber internally sounds like overkill and probably isn't supported natively by the majority of your client computers.
I don't really know anything about PC servers, but I imagine a 1U something from Dell or HP would suffice for 10 people.
(Also, keep in mind: nightly backups, weekly backups, co-location/off-site backups, power-supply redundancy, battery-backup UPS, emergency server parts availability, etc. One major downside to the Xserve is lack of redundant power supply.)
David Cuthbert
Feb 10, 06 8:08 am
Presently 8 members of staff running on a PC which is just a dedicated machine with a tape drive. Like ray-ray we've actually not had the tapes working and didn't even know. We have a farily organised filing system (that I thought all architects did), we pluck the files when we need them, and save back to the server. Only the backup files are kept on the individual machines. Right now its not a very large primary drive 80gig but it has a secondary one as well that is mirrored and is 120Gb. It works for me - no one has to think about backing up files etc. We've only had one crash in the last 5 years, and it was the it guy hungover from his birthday trying to work on the machine - go figure. My only additional recommendation would be to have a fire retardant case and/or place the server in a protected place - presently its out in the open near our filing wall.
Hope this helps. Its a system I'm looking to duplicate sometime in the future.
chupacabra
Feb 10, 06 9:34 am
Sun makes killer PC servers...even relatively cheaps ones
with those loads, mac/PC probably doesn't make too much of a difference. either will work just fine if setup properly - probably best to go with what the IT guy is most comfortable with.
I could see running 10gbps fiber to the main switch, and then GBe over copper to the workstations. but in that case, you'd really on see a performance improvement with a) one hell of a HD array in the server and b) everybody pulling one of those 150MB files all at the same time.
make sure switches and workstation adapters support jumbo frames.
not having at least an occasional off-site backup is just asking for it. Hard drives are very sensative to temperature, even with a fire-retardant case, I wouldn't count on data surviving the whole building burning down.
sameolddoctor
Feb 10, 06 2:08 pm
One of out IT proposals say that "The data drives though will be on an external RAID which are not only fast (SATA) but the data will be distributed over multiple drives making it at least double the disk speed", which in turn will talk to the server via firewire.
On the face this sounds good, but dont know if it will actually be a dependable system, ive never been a big firewire fan...
thanks everyone for the inputs, please keep them coming!
manamana
Feb 10, 06 5:15 pm
if it's standard firewire, you'll nuke any speed increase from the array right away. firewire is slower than copper gigabit ethernet. (400mbps max theoretical vs 1000mbps) Firewire 800 is still only 800mbps.
the array should be in the server for best performance (unless you're talking external SCSI or somthing heavy).
The description is vague, but make sure they aren't trying to sell you a RAID 0 array. (that is a very, very bad idea for your uses)
alex_ian
Feb 10, 06 5:33 pm
with pc you mean windows server only, or are you considering unices as well? what would be a system that keeps bosses from messing up their files? that sounds very interesting! I admin´ed a windows server for two years, biggest issue has always been internet security. and people messing up things...
sameolddoctor
Feb 10, 06 5:35 pm
no, manamana, they are trying to sell a RAID 5, but yes, doing it over firewire seems very strange to me...i think they are just talking bout it to reduce costs, but i dont like the idea....
Sean Taylor
Feb 10, 06 11:18 pm
We recently got the G5 X-serve as our first server. We are an office of 8 on all Macs (G4's and G5's).
Only (very) minor problems with permissions, but has basically worked flawlessly and very fast. Our IT guy set up Retrospect to back it up daily (both the server data and each of our desktops). I also do an off-site back-up with a Lacie hardrive at the end of each week with Retrospect.
I am able to effortlessly get into our server from home which is really great since my commute is over a half hour. So getting home and realizing that I needed something that I forgot to put on my jump drive was really a downer. Now I just jump on the server as if I am in the office. It did cost a lot of money, and my IT guy gave me the option of a dedicated G5 server solution, but I went with the X-Serve so that there will be no issues as we grow. Basically could not be happier with our investment.
BlueGoose
Feb 11, 06 10:57 am
WOW ... what a scary way to make such an important operating decision ... collecting information from people who really don't understand your needs and who you've never met ... admittedly, lots of interesting information here ... wonder if any of it's truly relevant to your particular situation
quick ... find the names of three (3) local IT consulting companies who have experience working with design firms ... ask your friends locally for referrals ... have each of these consultants visit with you in your office and assess your needs ... be VERY clear about what you are trying to achieve ... take detailed proposals from each ... hire the one who gives you the best combination of price and confidence
unless you just want to approach this as a hobby-exercise, you are going to waste a lot of time, and probably money, if you approach this as a "do it yourself" activity ... the technology itself is inexpensive ... trying to manage and correct the wrong technology is expensive beyond belief
would you remove your own appendix ?
sameolddoctor
Feb 11, 06 1:47 pm
blue goose, if you look at my original post, we have got quotes from 4 it companies for our needs. However, i think they dont really understand our needs very well, or rather they dont think alike, since the quotes are ranging from $ 40,000 to $ 8,000. Hence asking people here, and honestly ive learnt much more here than researching all the sites online, or by talking to the IT guys.
Im not thinking of doing this as a hobby excercise, we are thinking of hiring a competent company with a proper 24/7 service contract for maintenance and support.
FOG Lite
Feb 11, 06 2:19 pm
If I'm remembering correctly we got our server all set up for around $5000. We did away with most of the options and just got an external drive for backing up rather than an array.
Another thing to remember is that despite OSX's ease of use, it is harder to find IT pros who have any experience with it.
And since you are in LA I'll go ahead put our IT guys info here:
Technology Management Corporation
(714) 634-9281 http://www.tmc-act.com
sameolddoctor
Feb 11, 06 3:45 pm
thanks FOG,will call these guys and talk to them!
trace™
Feb 12, 06 9:17 am
I have a dual 3.4 with 3 250gig drives in a RAID 5 config. That all fits in Dell's 470 workstation chassis - it's tiny. No reason you couldn't use a machine like this as a file server, although I'd guess for a small office the dual 3.4's would be overkill.
I spec'd it with a RAID 1, as Dell doesn't offer 5 online. But once I got it, the tech guy walked me through it all (gotta love the Gold Tech Support - NEVER do I wait in line to talk to them!). Just make sure they send the disk to config the array.
I'd highly recommend doing this. It's cheap and offers protection and tons of storage. Just remember that nothing physically connected will be protect from viruses (I just got one on this machine, even though I run TONS of security stuff regularly - a big pain).
I paid about $4.5k a year ago, so take out the graphics card, sound card, and a year's depreciation and you could get one pretty cheap. The server software ain't cheap, if I recall correctly.
BlueGoose
Feb 12, 06 11:27 am
sameolddoctor
- mea culpa - sorry man, just didn't read your original post carefully enough - my apologies
SpringFresh
Feb 12, 06 4:14 pm
Bit late in the game, but we just have one G5 tower runing as a server for 12 macs and a tape backup system that we do each night. We don to the folder copying thing that was talked about above- we just open drawings sraight off the server- no problems- its not even slow with small files -and printing massive files is no big deal either. It's definately the cheapest solution for a small office- though you will need a cople of hard drives or a massive one- i think we have about 400gb and then we archive it when its getting full. And then just a copy of tiger for server i think. Super Cheap!
thisisnotmyname
Jan 2, 21 12:42 pm
15 year old thread!
sameolddoctor
Jan 2, 21 1:21 pm
That’s right! And in those 15 years I wonder how much has changed, except for cloud backups, and hard drive space getting more affordable ... .the more things change the more they stay the same.
Thankfully I’m not doing any IT stuff anymore!
SneakyPete
Jan 2, 21 3:17 pm
How big is your firm now? Inquiring minds want to know.
sameolddoctor
Jan 2, 21 3:24 pm
Oh that firm is long gone unfortunately - survived '08 but got destroyed in '10. Now I work a corporate gig where IT is handled by the "experts"...
We are a small office, in the process of growing to be a slightly large office (we were 4, now upto 10). We did not have a server, just work on individual machines, but as one can imagine its getting to be a disaster, 15 copies of the same file floating around etc etc.
Long story cut short, we are looking into setting up a central server, with tape backups etc, and have got some quotes, some PC-server based (Dell, HP Proliant etc), and some Mac based (G5, Xserve) etc. Though we are a mixed enviroment, i prefer pc based systems, but some it guys prefer mac servers just because osX is easy to script, has solid unix core etc.
What are your experiences with Macintosh servers, especially dealing with huge 100-150 MB photoshop files and such? Please please divulge your experiences!!! Ive looked on other computer forums too, but think its best to get the dirt from design professionals.
Thanks in advance!
Im a interested too.
When it comes to servers I am clueless.:)
lol, I'm interested too.
We are that firm and for a lot less money we have a designated G5 1.8 that we use as our server. It has a projects folder which have every project we have done over the last 6 years on file. Everyone simply borrows the file for the day and replaces evernight. The G5 has a independant hard drive that it backs up every night at 4:30 and I have a separate hard drive that I back up every other night and take home. it has worked well and have had no problem. everyone is connected to each other if they want to be but mostly we work on our own projects and pass everything back and forth across the machines and then replace it daily. it s somewhat simple but totally reasonable for a smallish firm if you see yourself growing beyond 10 then I would certainly be looking at some other solution. We see ourselves remaining some what boutique size as I don't really want to be the head administration and would rather do the design work too or going skiing.
But what about PC based servers?
whistler, that seems like a good suggestion-everyone borrows files and returns them later..we were thinking of that too,but the bosses are sometimes too lazy to put the files in the 'right' places, so that will mess things up, hence looking for beefier servers, and wiring the whole place down with (hopefully) fiber...its not too cheap, but not too expensive all the same - thanks
but, we need some more input, please !!
worked many years in a large firm with mostly macs and mac servers, we rarely ever had any problems wtih the servers. lots of files and lots of large files with about 25 plus designers hitting the server constantly (plus a couple of people working remotely from other offices). very stable, the only issue that we ever had was that the tape drive went awol - couple of weeks later someone finally noticed that we had not actually backed up the files - got lucky there!
why fiber? gigabit over cat6 copper is already faster than a hard drive can read or write.
These are fairly small loads, I doubt you'll see much of a performance difference from a huge amount of processing power.
the things to focus on will be the HD subsystem, and making sure the system and the backup regime are properly setup.
fiber was being suggested by one of the it consultants, but thanks for letting me know, maybe he was just getting a quick buck...
but again, manamana, which file server should one go for? PC or Mac ?
Well, not sure if he was looking for a quick buck. Suggesting fiber to an office already using 150mb files may be saving you future headaches down the line.
2 things on the cable:
-no less than cat6
-pay for the conduit! (We tell our clients to do it in their projects, we shoudl do it too!)
Make sure you get gigabyte switches as well.
Office I was at this summer used a Dual 2.0 GHz G5 Xserve as the file server. It served about 25 Macs and one PC. Setting up OS X Server to allow both Mac and PC users is a walk in the park. My guess is that a Windows server would require some dedicated staff time to administer, whereas for an office of 10, the techiest person in the office (one familiar with macs) would probably find setting up an Xserve easy. In that same firm, all tech is handled by one architect. Another firm in town uses a similar setup for 40 people. In both cases, everyone routinely works directly off the server. RAID is of course used in both cases and is push-button easy to setup on the Xserve. We used one drive for the system, and storage on two RAID drives. Go gigabit networking everywhere (i.e. switches). Fiber internally sounds like overkill and probably isn't supported natively by the majority of your client computers.
I don't really know anything about PC servers, but I imagine a 1U something from Dell or HP would suffice for 10 people.
(Also, keep in mind: nightly backups, weekly backups, co-location/off-site backups, power-supply redundancy, battery-backup UPS, emergency server parts availability, etc. One major downside to the Xserve is lack of redundant power supply.)
Presently 8 members of staff running on a PC which is just a dedicated machine with a tape drive. Like ray-ray we've actually not had the tapes working and didn't even know. We have a farily organised filing system (that I thought all architects did), we pluck the files when we need them, and save back to the server. Only the backup files are kept on the individual machines. Right now its not a very large primary drive 80gig but it has a secondary one as well that is mirrored and is 120Gb. It works for me - no one has to think about backing up files etc. We've only had one crash in the last 5 years, and it was the it guy hungover from his birthday trying to work on the machine - go figure. My only additional recommendation would be to have a fire retardant case and/or place the server in a protected place - presently its out in the open near our filing wall.
Hope this helps. Its a system I'm looking to duplicate sometime in the future.
Sun makes killer PC servers...even relatively cheaps ones
http://store.sun.com/CMTemplate/CEServlet?process=SunStore&cmdViewProduct_CP&catid=138714
with those loads, mac/PC probably doesn't make too much of a difference. either will work just fine if setup properly - probably best to go with what the IT guy is most comfortable with.
I could see running 10gbps fiber to the main switch, and then GBe over copper to the workstations. but in that case, you'd really on see a performance improvement with a) one hell of a HD array in the server and b) everybody pulling one of those 150MB files all at the same time.
make sure switches and workstation adapters support jumbo frames.
not having at least an occasional off-site backup is just asking for it. Hard drives are very sensative to temperature, even with a fire-retardant case, I wouldn't count on data surviving the whole building burning down.
One of out IT proposals say that "The data drives though will be on an external RAID which are not only fast (SATA) but the data will be distributed over multiple drives making it at least double the disk speed", which in turn will talk to the server via firewire.
On the face this sounds good, but dont know if it will actually be a dependable system, ive never been a big firewire fan...
thanks everyone for the inputs, please keep them coming!
if it's standard firewire, you'll nuke any speed increase from the array right away. firewire is slower than copper gigabit ethernet. (400mbps max theoretical vs 1000mbps) Firewire 800 is still only 800mbps.
the array should be in the server for best performance (unless you're talking external SCSI or somthing heavy).
The description is vague, but make sure they aren't trying to sell you a RAID 0 array. (that is a very, very bad idea for your uses)
with pc you mean windows server only, or are you considering unices as well? what would be a system that keeps bosses from messing up their files? that sounds very interesting! I admin´ed a windows server for two years, biggest issue has always been internet security. and people messing up things...
no, manamana, they are trying to sell a RAID 5, but yes, doing it over firewire seems very strange to me...i think they are just talking bout it to reduce costs, but i dont like the idea....
We recently got the G5 X-serve as our first server. We are an office of 8 on all Macs (G4's and G5's).
Only (very) minor problems with permissions, but has basically worked flawlessly and very fast. Our IT guy set up Retrospect to back it up daily (both the server data and each of our desktops). I also do an off-site back-up with a Lacie hardrive at the end of each week with Retrospect.
I am able to effortlessly get into our server from home which is really great since my commute is over a half hour. So getting home and realizing that I needed something that I forgot to put on my jump drive was really a downer. Now I just jump on the server as if I am in the office. It did cost a lot of money, and my IT guy gave me the option of a dedicated G5 server solution, but I went with the X-Serve so that there will be no issues as we grow. Basically could not be happier with our investment.
WOW ... what a scary way to make such an important operating decision ... collecting information from people who really don't understand your needs and who you've never met ... admittedly, lots of interesting information here ... wonder if any of it's truly relevant to your particular situation
quick ... find the names of three (3) local IT consulting companies who have experience working with design firms ... ask your friends locally for referrals ... have each of these consultants visit with you in your office and assess your needs ... be VERY clear about what you are trying to achieve ... take detailed proposals from each ... hire the one who gives you the best combination of price and confidence
unless you just want to approach this as a hobby-exercise, you are going to waste a lot of time, and probably money, if you approach this as a "do it yourself" activity ... the technology itself is inexpensive ... trying to manage and correct the wrong technology is expensive beyond belief
would you remove your own appendix ?
blue goose, if you look at my original post, we have got quotes from 4 it companies for our needs. However, i think they dont really understand our needs very well, or rather they dont think alike, since the quotes are ranging from $ 40,000 to $ 8,000. Hence asking people here, and honestly ive learnt much more here than researching all the sites online, or by talking to the IT guys.
Im not thinking of doing this as a hobby excercise, we are thinking of hiring a competent company with a proper 24/7 service contract for maintenance and support.
If I'm remembering correctly we got our server all set up for around $5000. We did away with most of the options and just got an external drive for backing up rather than an array.
Another thing to remember is that despite OSX's ease of use, it is harder to find IT pros who have any experience with it.
And since you are in LA I'll go ahead put our IT guys info here:
Technology Management Corporation
(714) 634-9281
http://www.tmc-act.com
thanks FOG,will call these guys and talk to them!
I have a dual 3.4 with 3 250gig drives in a RAID 5 config. That all fits in Dell's 470 workstation chassis - it's tiny. No reason you couldn't use a machine like this as a file server, although I'd guess for a small office the dual 3.4's would be overkill.
I spec'd it with a RAID 1, as Dell doesn't offer 5 online. But once I got it, the tech guy walked me through it all (gotta love the Gold Tech Support - NEVER do I wait in line to talk to them!). Just make sure they send the disk to config the array.
I'd highly recommend doing this. It's cheap and offers protection and tons of storage. Just remember that nothing physically connected will be protect from viruses (I just got one on this machine, even though I run TONS of security stuff regularly - a big pain).
I paid about $4.5k a year ago, so take out the graphics card, sound card, and a year's depreciation and you could get one pretty cheap. The server software ain't cheap, if I recall correctly.
- mea culpa - sorry man, just didn't read your original post carefully enough - my apologies
Bit late in the game, but we just have one G5 tower runing as a server for 12 macs and a tape backup system that we do each night. We don to the folder copying thing that was talked about above- we just open drawings sraight off the server- no problems- its not even slow with small files -and printing massive files is no big deal either. It's definately the cheapest solution for a small office- though you will need a cople of hard drives or a massive one- i think we have about 400gb and then we archive it when its getting full. And then just a copy of tiger for server i think. Super Cheap!
15 year old thread!
That’s right! And in those 15 years I wonder how much has changed, except for cloud backups, and hard drive space getting more affordable ... .the more things change the more they stay the same.
Thankfully I’m not doing any IT stuff anymore!
How big is your firm now? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh that firm is long gone unfortunately - survived '08 but got destroyed in '10. Now I work a corporate gig where IT is handled by the "experts"...
Sorry to hear that.