Can anyone recommend an mep engineer for permit drawings for a project in detroit? its not a big project - 2500 sf converting retail space into a creative studio. can either be a small firm or independent engineer who does side work. Thanks in advance
Chad Miller
Aug 12, 24 2:10 pm
Call a few local architecture firms and ask for their opinion.
FYI: in most areas there is no such thing a 'permit set'. Full construction drawings are needed to get a building permit. From you short project description this could be a change in occupancy. At the very least it's a change of use. Don't expect a reduced fee for this type of work.
Good luck.
elan_h
Aug 12, 24 4:46 pm
@chad miller, yes, i'm aware. i'm a licensed architect and have received approval for tons of projects. i just work mostly out of state so do not have a consultant network in the state. I have the architectural dwgs ready to go.
My permit sets generally do not include fully fleshed out details such as millwork or interior details or full interior elevations and specs that my CDs include as they're not necessary for permit approval; hence differentiation between the permit set and CDs. I already have the life safety and occupancy drawings for the change of use.
It's a fairly straightforward TI project so I would expect a smaller fee than a larger project. That's usually how it's been received in previous proposals I've received for similar scope projects
Chad Miller
Aug 12, 24 5:12 pm
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't certain of your experience and didn't want you to have unreasonable expectations. In the states that I work in (MN, ND, SD, WI, CO, UT) most AHJ don't have 'permit sets' They require singed CD's for building permits. I'm glad this project will have a different permit process.
przemula
Aug 14, 24 10:10 am
Not sure you fully understood the meaning of the 'permit set'. It is a legit construction documents set with AOR and DOB stamps, it's just for a smaller project, like SFR or tenant buildout. Since it's small, it doesn't have specs (or all the specs are shown in form of notes on of the sheets), and it's typically for GC, so unless you made some significant mistake, you won't ever hear from GC/owner after you hand them the permit. That's at least my understanding. Back to thread - from my experience, it's always a struggle to find MEP consultant for small projects like this, I know about 3-4 architects who are or were trying to find someone like that - good luck
Chad Miller
Aug 14, 24 10:34 am
przemula - Are you responding to the OP or myself?
przemula
Aug 14, 24 10:58 am
Both, first part was to you, after 'back to thread...' was to OP.
Chad Miller
Aug 14, 24 11:16 am
I do fully understand what a permit set is though. I don't do much single family residential work though. With what the OP was proposing it seemed like commercial work.
In my experience, most commercial work requires a signed CD set for permits to be issued for the associated work. Some projects will phase the work so individual permits can be issued before all the design is complete. IE, site plan review, demo permit, footing and foundation permit, ect.
This may just be in the area's I've practiced in though. (MN, ND, SD, WI, CO, UT)
przemula
Aug 14, 24 2:56 pm
The way I see it is, the project that OP described can be done in two ways: a traditional DBB project delivery (to what I assume you're probably used to), or through so call 'permit set', where you have the savvy owner working with knowledgeable GC, and architect role is limited to just providing a plans good enough for permit. Since the project is fairly simple, architect doesn't need to provide an input during construction. The CA phase and other project components are non-existent for an architect too. The permitting process however will be the same for both, at least where I live (IL). AHJ review, inspections, etc. would be done in the same way for both
Chad Miller
Aug 14, 24 3:25 pm
przemula - A couple of things:
In my experience, the delivery method has no impact on the permitting process. It may be different in IL.
If you use AIA contracts the CA phase is automatically included in the contract unless specifically removed.
There seems to be communication error. Maybe you need to define what a permit set is in IL and what types of projects you work on?
Like I previously stated, I've never encountered an AHJ that didn't require signed CD's for the work associated with the permit. If you use AIA contracts the CA phase is always included in the contract unless specifically removed.
proto
Aug 14, 24 3:56 pm
There is a wide spectrum of scope complexity that might make up a "permit set". Whether non-regulated items are indicated in the set or not, ANY set sent in for building permit review is a "permit set" & will/should have all the fundamental reviewable elements for a finished building. Not sure what scope complexity chad is calling "signed CDs"...
Chad Miller
Aug 14, 24 4:12 pm
In the area's that I've practiced the AHJ required stamped and signed Construction Documents to get a building permit.
You may not need the entire set (ie, specs, casework details, finish plans, signage, ect) however pretty much everything else was required from all the disciplines. Depending on the scope of your project this could mean a few sheets or 100's.
Again, this was all for commercial projects. Residential project needed basically nothing beyond a site plan, floor plans, and elevations.
That's what I mean by 'signed CD's.
proto
Aug 15, 24 4:05 pm
I guess it sounded like you were referring to contract docs as defined by the owner architect contract. The jurisdiction doesn't care about all sorts of things that might otherwise go into a finished construction document set. They only look at the reviewable code items. So, a minimalist permit set (w/ MEP or whatever is "required") tho signed/stamped may not be the same as a complete contract document set required by the owner's contract. Altho it could.
proto
Aug 15, 24 4:09 pm
And, yes, there's a conversation to be had about how much effort it is to do multiple set releases. I like single design efforts leading to a single package for both permit & bidding. It allows the most complete coordination possible.
Chad Miller
Aug 15, 24 4:10 pm
It still requires stamped and signed documents that are to be used for construction . . . .
proto
Aug 15, 24 4:37 pm
That's not being argued...what's at issue is "in most areas there is no such thing a 'permit set'." Which is just untrue. Any jurisdiction HAS to review any submitted set that contains the info that addresses the code reviewable items. Yes, that set needs to be stamped/signed. Yes, it has to then be on site for inspections as the jurisdiction's accepted set. But it doesn't have to have all the info in it to complete the building to the owner's satisfaction. It is utterly common in commercial construction around the US.
Chad Miller
Aug 15, 24 4:42 pm
I can see that reasoning.
My point is that any drawings that go into a permit set must also be the construction documents. If you change the CD's you need to amend the permit set.
A lot of 'clients' will say they 'just need a permit set' as a means to reduce fee. That's asinine.
In my experience a permit set includes the following architectural sheets:
Codes / special inspections
Life safety
Energy code compliance
Site Plan
Floor plans, Roof Plan
Exterior Elevations
Building sections
Exterior details (relevant to energy code)
Enlarged plans.
All of which need to labeled for construction and stamped / signed. You're not going to get through all of the above work without having designed nearly the entire building.
jeiffert
Aug 14, 24 8:23 pm
Chad, I will defer to you regarding required content of permit application sets for commercial work. But any building department I've worked with would not accept a residential set consisting of only a site plan, floor plans, and elevations. Framing plans, building sections, structural details, structural calcs, energy code compliance, etc are always required to even get past screening. I'm in Washington State.
Chad Miller
Aug 15, 24 2:26 pm
I agree. Sorry for the confusion - I was speaking about the architectural work required.
Can anyone recommend an mep engineer for permit drawings for a project in detroit? its not a big project - 2500 sf converting retail space into a creative studio. can either be a small firm or independent engineer who does side work. Thanks in advance
Call a few local architecture firms and ask for their opinion.
FYI: in most areas there is no such thing a 'permit set'. Full construction drawings are needed to get a building permit. From you short project description this could be a change in occupancy. At the very least it's a change of use. Don't expect a reduced fee for this type of work.
Good luck.
@chad miller, yes, i'm aware. i'm a licensed architect and have received approval for tons of projects. i just work mostly out of state so do not have a consultant network in the state. I have the architectural dwgs ready to go.
My permit sets generally do not include fully fleshed out details such as millwork or interior details or full interior elevations and specs that my CDs include as they're not necessary for permit approval; hence differentiation between the permit set and CDs. I already have the life safety and occupancy drawings for the change of use.
It's a fairly straightforward TI project so I would expect a smaller fee than a larger project. That's usually how it's been received in previous proposals I've received for similar scope projects
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't certain of your experience and didn't want you to have unreasonable expectations. In the states that I work in (MN, ND, SD, WI, CO, UT) most AHJ don't have 'permit sets' They require singed CD's for building permits. I'm glad this project will have a different permit process.
Not sure you fully understood the meaning of the 'permit set'. It is a legit construction documents set with AOR and DOB stamps, it's just for a smaller project, like SFR or tenant buildout. Since it's small, it doesn't have specs (or all the specs are shown in form of notes on of the sheets), and it's typically for GC, so unless you made some significant mistake, you won't ever hear from GC/owner after you hand them the permit. That's at least my understanding. Back to thread - from my experience, it's always a struggle to find MEP consultant for small projects like this, I know about 3-4 architects who are or were trying to find someone like that - good luck
przemula - Are you responding to the OP or myself?
Both, first part was to you, after 'back to thread...' was to OP.
I do fully understand what a permit set is though. I don't do much single family residential work though. With what the OP was proposing it seemed like commercial work.
In my experience, most commercial work requires a signed CD set for permits to be issued for the associated work. Some projects will phase the work so individual permits can be issued before all the design is complete. IE, site plan review, demo permit, footing and foundation permit, ect.
This may just be in the area's I've practiced in though. (MN, ND, SD, WI, CO, UT)
The way I see it is, the project that OP described can be done in two ways: a traditional DBB project delivery (to what I assume you're probably used to), or through so call 'permit set', where you have the savvy owner working with knowledgeable GC, and architect role is limited to just providing a plans good enough for permit. Since the project is fairly simple, architect doesn't need to provide an input during construction. The CA phase and other project components are non-existent for an architect too. The permitting process however will be the same for both, at least where I live (IL). AHJ review, inspections, etc. would be done in the same way for both
przemula - A couple of things:
In my experience, the delivery method has no impact on the permitting process. It may be different in IL.
If you use AIA contracts the CA phase is automatically included in the contract unless specifically removed.
There seems to be communication error. Maybe you need to define what a permit set is in IL and what types of projects you work on?
Like I previously stated, I've never encountered an AHJ that didn't require signed CD's for the work associated with the permit. If you use AIA contracts the CA phase is always included in the contract unless specifically removed.
There is a wide spectrum of scope complexity that might make up a "permit set". Whether non-regulated items are indicated in the set or not, ANY set sent in for building permit review is a "permit set" & will/should have all the fundamental reviewable elements for a finished building. Not sure what scope complexity chad is calling "signed CDs"...
In the area's that I've practiced the AHJ required stamped and signed Construction Documents to get a building permit.
You may not need the entire set (ie, specs, casework details, finish plans, signage, ect) however pretty much everything else was required from all the disciplines. Depending on the scope of your project this could mean a few sheets or 100's.
Again, this was all for commercial projects. Residential project needed basically nothing beyond a site plan, floor plans, and elevations.
That's what I mean by 'signed CD's.
I guess it sounded like you were referring to contract docs as defined by the owner architect contract. The jurisdiction doesn't care about all sorts of things that might otherwise go into a finished construction document set. They only look at the reviewable code items. So, a minimalist permit set (w/ MEP or whatever is "required") tho signed/stamped may not be the same as a complete contract document set required by the owner's contract. Altho it could.
And, yes, there's a conversation to be had about how much effort it is to do multiple set releases. I like single design efforts leading to a single package for both permit & bidding. It allows the most complete coordination possible.
It still requires stamped and signed documents that are to be used for construction . . . .
That's not being argued...what's at issue is "in most areas there is no such thing a 'permit set'." Which is just untrue. Any jurisdiction HAS to review any submitted set that contains the info that addresses the code reviewable items. Yes, that set needs to be stamped/signed. Yes, it has to then be on site for inspections as the jurisdiction's accepted set. But it doesn't have to have all the info in it to complete the building to the owner's satisfaction. It is utterly common in commercial construction around the US.
I can see that reasoning.
My point is that any drawings that go into a permit set must also be the construction documents. If you change the CD's you need to amend the permit set.
A lot of 'clients' will say they 'just need a permit set' as a means to reduce fee. That's asinine.
In my experience a permit set includes the following architectural sheets:
All of which need to labeled for construction and stamped / signed. You're not going to get through all of the above work without having designed nearly the entire building.
Chad, I will defer to you regarding required content of permit application sets for commercial work. But any building department I've worked with would not accept a residential set consisting of only a site plan, floor plans, and elevations. Framing plans, building sections, structural details, structural calcs, energy code compliance, etc are always required to even get past screening. I'm in Washington State.
I agree. Sorry for the confusion - I was speaking about the architectural work required.