hi! because fire exit stairs on the left are in a fireproof enclosure - should the arrows direct them to those stairs past the main staircase in the middle or shall I treat both sets equally and whichever is closer, you choose that. the room on the bottom right is a standalone space on the 1st floor.
thanks
graphemic
Jul 18, 24 12:56 pm
Read Chapter 10 of the IBC about means of egress. It's complex but you'll learn a lot.
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 1:36 pm
thanks, it looks really helpful.
archanonymous
Jul 19, 24 2:03 pm
He will learn a lot but unfortunately the answer to this is not in there.
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 24 1:25 pm
when is your homework due?
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 1:35 pm
oh it's you - didn't feel the need to help but continue being the same person you are. see the comment above, by graphemic, that is an example of helping people who post, and not trolling people because you feel inadequate.
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 1:47 pm
This is homework though . . .
After all these years you should be intelligent enough to know to look in the IBC chapter 10.
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 1:51 pm
It is university work, and we (non sequitur and I) have a history. his replies aren't helpful - unlike graphemic's post, and 99.9% of all other users on here.
graphemic
Jul 18, 24 1:59 pm
Chad, just to be devil's advocate... when you're not using code/regulations frequently (in school, in practice) it's really easy to forget the chapters. Even I can spend months with one section, then a few years later not be able to recall which exact source I got the knowledge from.
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 3:00 pm
That is true graphemic - however I'm betting part of the assignment is to figure this out by looking at the code book.
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 3:10 pm
F-Z-J
Be sure to look at : Common Path of Egress Travel, and the Exit Access Travel Distance. This will be based on your buildings occupancy type. When doing so you need to count the distances traveled within the stairs. That is unless the stairs are exit access stairs.
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 24 4:59 pm
So, why are crowd sourcing easy homework stuff? You’re supposed to figure this shit put yourself, not ask others for the answer. Lazy student is lazy.
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 1:32 pm
....
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 1:47 pm
Are you a student or working in architecture?
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 1:56 pm
student work - and intelligent enough to look in the IBC? why are you attacking me and you seem to be conflating knowledge with intelligence. Furthermore, a fire escape plan isn't required for the work - it's something extra I'm doing.
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 3:02 pm
Intelligent enough research and learn where to look for building codes.
I don't believe you that this isn't part of your required school work. Knowing how to design a building so it's meeting basic egress requirements is part of your school work by now.
If you don't want to be treated like a jerk, don't act like one. I understand that Non has upset you. Ignore it. You've literally asked this forum to do your homework for you in the past and then became upset and hostile when we wouldn't do it for you. You have a reputation to overcome.
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 24 5:00 pm
Fire exit design is not extra, it’s bare minimum requirements.
F-Z-J
Jul 18, 24 5:06 pm
this is a fire escape plan - it is not part of the work requirements.
Chad Miller
Jul 18, 24 5:12 pm
It's not a fire escape plan. It's part of basic exiting. This is something you should be aware of at this time in your education. You wouldn't design an auditorium with just one way out would you? This is the same thing.
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 24 5:15 pm
Maybe spend time on the design instead of worrying about drawing separate exit plan. Good design can be a good way to solve basic program reqs like minimum exits.
I'm going to say that NS, you have gone too far this time being an asshole just for the sake of it. If an architecture student can't come here for help with a VERY DIFFICULT and totally vague question like this, where can they go? Most professors are not practicing architects.
I agree, OP should read the code books but think back to when you were in school or recently out. Do you remember how difficult it was/ is to read a code book? Did you even know what code books to look for? How confusing they are? Hell, I know plenty of long-time architects who don't know the answer to this.
Kudos to Chad and graphemic for decent answers.
As far as the actual answer goes - in most jurisdictions I've worked in (15 years professional experience culminating as a high-level PA/ Senior Project Architect at some of the best firms in North America, if not the world) there is not a straightforward answer to this. Or rather, when drawing an exit plan, the answer to where the arrows point is "where the fire marshal says."
Sure if you are designing some shitty commercial box like I know most here work on, it is easy to anticipate where that is going to be, but with an open monumental stair that straddles the line between being acceptable for egress and not (only connects two levels, or connects 3 with a smoke control system, or in a building and construction type where it is not an issue) there is a good possibility the fire marshal will want to use it as egress.
Quit being a miserable asshole and go have some Tim Horton's or whatever it is you do to boost your serotonin levels.
Non Sequitur
Jul 20, 24 10:25 am
I was very helpful. Not my problem this student uses the forum to do their homework. This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor.
Non Sequitur
Jul 20, 24 10:25 am
Also, Tim Hortons is shit coffee. We far better options than that brown swill.
curtkram
Jul 20, 24 11:00 am
arch, aren't you concerned the OP isn't going to be able to get an education if (s)he doesn't do the work on their own? if they want to be a real architect and go through all of the education requirements, internship, and testing, they won't always have this internet forum to hold their hand and do their work for them.
archanonymous
Jul 22, 24 6:59 am
@NS I don't think you realize the state of architectural education. Doubt there's a single professor at my (or any of our collective) alma mater who could answer this.
@Curtkram - I didn't realize we all came out of secondary school as fully-formed super knowledgeable architects. You don't know an answer to something, you go find it, that's practicing architecture, and that's what this kid is trying to do (in my view). Like I said, there's almost 0 discussion or knowledge of building code or these nuanced issues in any school I know of currently. Even "in my day" the most we got was "you always need two exits" and that was with real, practicing architects as professors.
Chad Miller
Jul 22, 24 10:00 am
archanonymous wrote:
"@NS I don't think you realize the state of architectural education. Doubt there's a single professor at my (or any of our collective) alma mater who could answer this. "
That's disturbing. I went to a state school and EVERY professor could at least point a student in the right direction.
Why is our responsibility to answer it? We've pointed him in the right direction. That's the most we should be doing. Going beyond that is unethical as we'd be doing his assignments and basically cheating for him.
The OP has a history of asking us to do his assignments for him then getting angry when we won't.
gwharton
Jul 22, 24 12:35 pm
"This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor." .....uh, no. The way the code is written leaves some ambiguity on whether the open stair in the middle of that plan would qualify as a means of egress. How many stories does it span? Is it in a conforming Atrium? Etc. An Exit sign or indicator on an egress diagram could direct occupants to it if it met certain requirements, but otherwise not. So being a jackąss to a student poster over the question is petty and dumb.
Chad Miller
Jul 22, 24 12:39 pm
gwharton wrote "This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor." .....uh, no.
I'd have to disagree. Someone could easily discuss this in five minutes and know if the stair could be considered part of the exit access.
The fact that the OP isn't smart enough to provide the relevant information says a lot about their capabilities. Add to that the fact that the OP has asked in the past for people to do their assignments says a lot about their ethics and capabilities.
archanonymous
Jul 23, 24 3:45 pm
Uh, the OP is a student? Being smart enough has nothing to do with it.
natematt
Jul 22, 24 2:26 am
This drawing is hard to read… however, I’m willing to guess you need two exits per 1006.3.4. It seems likely you are not going to meet dead end requirements per 1020.5. You may also be failing to meet separation requirements per 1007.1.1 both in the overall building and potentially within individual rooms depending on occupant load. As said above, common path of travel may also be an issue. There are a lot of other issues, but those are topical thoughts. (references are 2021)
Not sure what you mean by arrows exactly, are you talking about exit signs (presumed), wayfinding in the building, or life safety drawings?
Donna Sink
Jul 23, 24 1:51 pm
I honestly think this is a challenging question, although as archanonymous says above ultimately, at least in the US, the fire marshal tell you what s/he wants done, code book be damned.
But the interesting question is: should a non-compliant stair (for example a grand staircase open through three+ floors) have egress signage? Is it better/safer to get someone out of the building quickly, or to get them into a smoke-proof enclosure quickly?
Chad Miller
Jul 23, 24 2:02 pm
Typically a non compliant stair cannot have egress signage. The most notable exception to this are in the IEBC when dealing with historic buildings.
natematt
Jul 23, 24 3:52 pm
How do you know it’s 3 stories? If it is, then the comments above about the atrium issues apply.
But yeah. I’m with Chad, AHJ can allow whatever but that doesn’t mean I’d toss code. If the AHJ lets you do something non-compliant you better have a good reason and a well thought out solution. If they are just blatantly letting you do something non-compliant on a major element of a new building…. Just make it compliant.
hi! because fire exit stairs on the left are in a fireproof enclosure - should the arrows direct them to those stairs past the main staircase in the middle or shall I treat both sets equally and whichever is closer, you choose that. the room on the bottom right is a standalone space on the 1st floor.
thanks
Read Chapter 10 of the IBC about means of egress. It's complex but you'll learn a lot.
thanks, it looks really helpful.
He will learn a lot but unfortunately the answer to this is not in there.
when is your homework due?
oh it's you - didn't feel the need to help but continue being the same person you are. see the comment above, by graphemic, that is an example of helping people who post, and not trolling people because you feel inadequate.
This is homework though . . .
After all these years you should be intelligent enough to know to look in the IBC chapter 10.
It is university work, and we (non sequitur and I) have a history. his replies aren't helpful - unlike graphemic's post, and 99.9% of all other users on here.
Chad, just to be devil's advocate... when you're not using code/regulations frequently (in school, in practice) it's really easy to forget the chapters. Even I can spend months with one section, then a few years later not be able to recall which exact source I got the knowledge from.
That is true graphemic - however I'm betting part of the assignment is to figure this out by looking at the code book.
F-Z-J
Be sure to look at : Common Path of Egress Travel, and the Exit Access Travel Distance. This will be based on your buildings occupancy type. When doing so you need to count the distances traveled within the stairs. That is unless the stairs are exit access stairs.
So, why are crowd sourcing easy homework stuff? You’re supposed to figure this shit put yourself, not ask others for the answer. Lazy student is lazy.
....
Are you a student or working in architecture?
student work - and intelligent enough to look in the IBC? why are you attacking me and you seem to be conflating knowledge with intelligence. Furthermore, a fire escape plan isn't required for the work - it's something extra I'm doing.
Intelligent enough research and learn where to look for building codes.
I don't believe you that this isn't part of your required school work. Knowing how to design a building so it's meeting basic egress requirements is part of your school work by now.
If you don't want to be treated like a jerk, don't act like one. I understand that Non has upset you. Ignore it. You've literally asked this forum to do your homework for you in the past and then became upset and hostile when we wouldn't do it for you. You have a reputation to overcome.
Fire exit design is not extra, it’s bare minimum requirements.
this is a fire escape plan - it is not part of the work requirements.
It's not a fire escape plan. It's part of basic exiting. This is something you should be aware of at this time in your education. You wouldn't design an auditorium with just one way out would you? This is the same thing.
Maybe spend time on the design instead of worrying about drawing separate exit plan. Good design can be a good way to solve basic program reqs like minimum exits.
For free plan review, email nonsequitor@gmail.can
That’s not my email.
hotgrumpycanadian@gmial.com
I'm going to say that NS, you have gone too far this time being an asshole just for the sake of it. If an architecture student can't come here for help with a VERY DIFFICULT and totally vague question like this, where can they go? Most professors are not practicing architects.
I agree, OP should read the code books but think back to when you were in school or recently out. Do you remember how difficult it was/ is to read a code book? Did you even know what code books to look for? How confusing they are? Hell, I know plenty of long-time architects who don't know the answer to this.
Kudos to Chad and graphemic for decent answers.
As far as the actual answer goes - in most jurisdictions I've worked in (15 years professional experience culminating as a high-level PA/ Senior Project Architect at some of the best firms in North America, if not the world) there is not a straightforward answer to this. Or rather, when drawing an exit plan, the answer to where the arrows point is "where the fire marshal says."
Sure if you are designing some shitty commercial box like I know most here work on, it is easy to anticipate where that is going to be, but with an open monumental stair that straddles the line between being acceptable for egress and not (only connects two levels, or connects 3 with a smoke control system, or in a building and construction type where it is not an issue) there is a good possibility the fire marshal will want to use it as egress.
Quit being a miserable asshole and go have some Tim Horton's or whatever it is you do to boost your serotonin levels.
I was very helpful. Not my problem this student uses the forum to do their homework. This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor.
Also, Tim Hortons is shit coffee. We far better options than that brown swill.
arch, aren't you concerned the OP isn't going to be able to get an education if (s)he doesn't do the work on their own? if they want to be a real architect and go through all of the education requirements, internship, and testing, they won't always have this internet forum to hold their hand and do their work for them.
@NS I don't think you realize the state of architectural education. Doubt there's a single professor at my (or any of our collective) alma mater who could answer this.
@Curtkram - I didn't realize we all came out of secondary school as fully-formed super knowledgeable architects. You don't know an answer to something, you go find it, that's practicing architecture, and that's what this kid is trying to do (in my view). Like I said, there's almost 0 discussion or knowledge of building code or these nuanced issues in any school I know of currently. Even "in my day" the most we got was "you always need two exits" and that was with real, practicing architects as professors.
archanonymous wrote:
"@NS I don't think you realize the state of architectural education. Doubt there's a single professor at my (or any of our collective) alma mater who could answer this. "
That's disturbing. I went to a state school and EVERY professor could at least point a student in the right direction.
Why is our responsibility to answer it? We've pointed him in the right direction. That's the most we should be doing. Going beyond that is unethical as we'd be doing his assignments and basically cheating for him.
The OP has a history of asking us to do his assignments for him then getting angry when we won't.
"This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor." .....uh, no. The way the code is written leaves some ambiguity on whether the open stair in the middle of that plan would qualify as a means of egress. How many stories does it span? Is it in a conforming Atrium? Etc. An Exit sign or indicator on an egress diagram could direct occupants to it if it met certain requirements, but otherwise not. So being a jackąss to a student poster over the question is petty and dumb.
gwharton wrote "This could have easily been resolved with a 5 min discussion with their tutor." .....uh, no.
I'd have to disagree. Someone could easily discuss this in five minutes and know if the stair could be considered part of the exit access.
The fact that the OP isn't smart enough to provide the relevant information says a lot about their capabilities. Add to that the fact that the OP has asked in the past for people to do their assignments says a lot about their ethics and capabilities.
Uh, the OP is a student? Being smart enough has nothing to do with it.
This drawing is hard to read… however, I’m willing to guess you need two exits per 1006.3.4. It seems likely you are not going to meet dead end requirements per 1020.5. You may also be failing to meet separation requirements per 1007.1.1 both in the overall building and potentially within individual rooms depending on occupant load. As said above, common path of travel may also be an issue. There are a lot of other issues, but those are topical thoughts. (references are 2021)
Not sure what you mean by arrows exactly, are you talking about exit signs (presumed), wayfinding in the building, or life safety drawings?
I honestly think this is a challenging question, although as archanonymous says above ultimately, at least in the US, the fire marshal tell you what s/he wants done, code book be damned.
But the interesting question is: should a non-compliant stair (for example a grand staircase open through three+ floors) have egress signage? Is it better/safer to get someone out of the building quickly, or to get them into a smoke-proof enclosure quickly?
Typically a non compliant stair cannot have egress signage. The most notable exception to this are in the IEBC when dealing with historic buildings.
How do you know it’s 3 stories? If it is, then the comments above about the atrium issues apply. But yeah. I’m with Chad, AHJ can allow whatever but that doesn’t mean I’d toss code. If the AHJ lets you do something non-compliant you better have a good reason and a well thought out solution. If they are just blatantly letting you do something non-compliant on a major element of a new building…. Just make it compliant.