Not sure what the Archinect community experience is regarding work hours "after" the pandemic, but we are seeing a regular 60-70 hour work weeks, with multiple meetings scheduled every day with clients, consultants and the like. Seems like we are been taken more and more for granted in Zoom mode. Most of our work is international, so the clients are more than happy to keep meeting all the time.
I know another friend who's also working on international projects to have similar experience, wondering what experience others have these days.
This does suck.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 10:58 am
I work on smaller projects ranging from $10 to $45 million with the occasional $190 million every few years. I'm doing 40 hours a week.
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 11:05 am
yes, 60-70 hours a week is completely extraneous and unnecessary
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 11:08 am
It's also unsustainable. Your firm will burn out people and cause them to leave.
I hope things improve for you soon!
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 11:15 am
Yes, that is the obvious side effect of such a toxic work culture
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 12:28 pm
If it was obvious firms wouldn't do it. There is a diminishing supply of fresh grads willing to work in such conditions.
tduds
Nov 10, 22 11:16 am
A deadline push here + there is one thing, but consistently working that many hours is either your own poor time management or poor project management by your firm leadership.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 11:25 am
Even deadlines are no excuse for working that many hours.
We always have at least one deadline a month at our office. It's ridiculous to expect people to work 60-70 hours once a month.
That's 120 to 240 hours of unpaid overtime a year.
Assuming an average billable rate of $100 an hour that's a lot of money the firm is making while you're making nothing.
Appleseed
Nov 10, 22 3:18 pm
Why are you assuming it's unpaid?
b3tadine[sutures]
Nov 10, 22 3:26 pm
Whoa. Tduds, that's a terribly skewed generalization there. Last week, I work 79 hours, company won't let me track it officially, but I did nonetheless. The company I work for got a shit ton of projects, with little to no staff to complete them, started up our MEP team at the same, then put three of the projects on the same schedule. Now mind you, my arch team is slim on experience, and we're trying to complete/manage a project with over 400 sheets.
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 6:32 pm
So that is bad management, no beta?
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 6:47 pm
And Chad is right, theres no overtime pay. That said most projects are on a fixed fee here so its mostly just bad management.
Appleseed
Nov 10, 22 7:43 pm
Wow, I'm dumbfounded that any adult in this profession is operating w/o overtime provisions in their employment contract. State / Fed. DOL rules don't come into play in your situation? Mostly agree w/ Non below, but am happy to work crazy hours (every once in a while) at x1.5 of my billable ;)
natematt
Nov 10, 22 8:41 pm
^ with SOD on that B3ta ... that's bad management by your firm... 1) Hire up so you can do the projects you get 2) sub out to other firms to do the work 3) don't take the work.
We've actually been doing the first two lately.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 22 10:43 am
Appleseed - every US state has labor laws that say a 'professional' is exempt from overtime pay. There are also federal labor laws that have the same laws.
Individual states define a professional differently though. Some say any position where you have any amount of oversight of other staff makes you a professional. Where I'm from in Colorado once you're licensed you're a professional and no more overtime.
Appleseed
Nov 11, 22 11:40 am
Regardless of the minutiae of the 'professional' exception, being expected to work 70 hr weeks when you're operating under the standard expectation of 40 (typ. boilerplate IME), sounds like indentured servitude to me. And doubles-down on the importance of having overtime pay (or PTO equiv.) baked into the employment contract.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 22 1:00 pm
I agree. Then again most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners. In the US all but one state is an 'employment at will' situation. This means you can be fired or quit without reason or additional compensation.
Appleseed
Nov 11, 22 3:04 pm
'most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners' - where do you come up with stuff like this? Balkins-level misinformation...
sameolddoctor
Nov 11, 22 6:41 pm
Chad is right, in california there is no overtime in architecture firms after a certain level
Appleseed
Nov 11, 22 7:36 pm
? If you're a firm owner and complaining about crazy hours, then that's kinda on you, no? And obviously, you can set a bonus or profit sharing to whatever, which effectively makes your point moot, as incentivized. Being someone who works in CA sometimes, I'd love to hear more about state regulation that prohibits 'overtime' at a 'certain level,' however that may be defined....especially as made specific to arch. firms - that would be a new one for me.
sameolddoctor
Nov 11, 22 7:53 pm
"Exempt Employees
Certain California employees have always been “exempt” from overtime pay and other wage and hour regulations. Whether an employee is exempt turns on two factors: the nature of their duties and the amount of their pay.
The duties test
Employees who perform work that is “primarily intellectual, managerial or creative,” and which requires the exercise of “discretion and independent judgment” are exempt. Essentially, this definition means executive, administrative or professional employees. Professionals, such as architects or other persons providing similar design services, are almost always considered exempt. Support staff, in contrast, are almost never considered exempt."
Professionals, such as architects or other persons providing similar design services, are almost always considered exempt.
b3tadine[sutures]
Nov 11, 22 8:49 pm
Yeah, it's poor mgmt. I was on a completely asinine call today, that had zero to with putting out the fire I'm dealing with, and everything to do with planning on stopping future fires. I'm like, my dude, I don't care, not right now. That took an hour, with four people. Three of whom were messaging me apologizing for this stupid shit.
Appleseed
Nov 11, 22 9:17 pm
Come on! Being exempted from state mandated overtime pay regulations does NOT preclude you from having a contract w/ overtime compensation provisions. You are being abused - do something about it. Last couple of years have been incredibly empowering for employees in our sector.
sameolddoctor
Nov 11, 22 10:14 pm
Apple, that totally depends on the firm. In my city, I have not seen a single firm offering non-exempt status for senior designers. For city-type jobs its a totally different story...
b3tadine[sutures]
Nov 12, 22 11:21 am
Apple, not everyone can be a contract employee. Yes, it does provide benefits, but there are also a lot of drawbacks. I'd be responsible for taxes, Healthcare, unemployment insurance and social security. Does anyone know how to do that, I don't.
Appleseed
Nov 12, 22 12:54 pm
Yes, it obviously depends on the firm - but I don't know anyone around here that doesn't, at minimum, have a written agreement w/ their W-2'd employees...and everything can be negotiated. Especially as a senior employee. Not talking about IC's.
Appleseed
Nov 12, 22 1:04 pm
The below H-1B example is a great citation; everything we're talking about here (hours / schedule + pay) is thoroughly documented in the visa application process. Both w/ the initial LCA and final authorization paperwork. OP may not be a visa holder, but being expected to work @ 175% of what's authorized (and compensated) would be a major violation for both employee and employer. Abuse of this is well known (unfortunately), especially in tech, where most of the H-1B hires are. Plenty of recourse available, however.
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 12:05 pm
Appleseed wrote:
"Come on! Being exempted from state mandated overtime pay regulations does NOT preclude you from having a contract w/ overtime compensation provisions."
Correct.
Unfortunately the US is not similar to Europe and Canada when it comes to employment contracts. Not very many firms offer any sort of employment contract for those that aren't at least partial firm owner.
In addition, a W-2d is not an actual employment contract. The W2-d identifies how much you'll be compensated per hour or year. It doesn't have anything in in about what each parties responsibilities are, bonus structures, time off, leave, ect.
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 12:09 pm
Appleseed wrote:
Chad wrote: 'most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners' - where do you come up with stuff like this? Balkins-level misinformation..."
See my comment above about the W-2d's. Could you please provide any info to back up your claim that employment contracts are common in the US for architects?
square.
Nov 14, 22 12:19 pm
#unionize
Appleseed
Nov 14, 22 1:01 pm
Chad, I don't know anyone working w/o a basic agreement in place that spells out (most of) the items you mention. As you candidly admitted below, there's a rather large working population that you're apparently un-aware of, which has all of this carefully prescribed. Am I to really think that most people in architecture don't know their contracted PTO or vacation days?
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 1:19 pm
I think we're having a communication problem.
I'm not saying that those things haven't been discussed and given to a staff member.
Vacation, PTO, other types of leave, and benefits are detailed in an employment letter, not a W-2d.
Your pay per hour our year are detailed in your W-2d.
Neither an employment letter or a W-2d are an employment contract in states that have 'at will employment'.
That at will employment is the important part. In addition, an employment contract must contain what responsibilities you and your employer have. What you're describing is a description of a compensation package. They may sound similar but legally they are very, very different.
Also I am quite aware of foreign workers in the architectural field. I wasn't aware of firms sponsoring a large number of foreign workers to gain a visa.
Appleseed
Nov 14, 22 1:35 pm
Contract / agreement / compensation package;
for the purposes of resolving the OP's uncompensated OT issue, they are interchangeable.
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 1:57 pm
I get what you're trying to say. Even in for the purpose of resolving this discussion the terms are not interchangeable though.
In the US only an employment contract can dictate additional compensated beyond a standard 40 hour work week.
Unfortunately most firms in the US won't negotiate overtime pay for exempt staff. As I said before, it's rare for anyone other than part owners to have employee contracts in the US.
Why don't we ask US architects. How many of you have language in your employee contract that provide you with additional compensation for overtime?
Stasis
Nov 15, 22 7:16 pm
In CA, most firms follow hire-at-will, so I haven't seen any contract from the employer side. Under at will employment, Offer letters are typically used to capture the wage, work hours, and benefits. I've never seen offer letters stating the OT policy.
However, my last EAC firm did have a clause in the employment guide book that the OT to be paid in straight rate and there were conditions like they need to be pre-approved by your line managers, etc. As for the OP's point, there needs to be a company wide policy change in response to the pandemic and increased demands from the international clients. Adjusting work hours, comp time, or additional compensation should be considered. however, from the legal standpoint, I'm not sure sure if one can use 'offer letter' as a basis to demand changes....
Stasis
Nov 15, 22 7:26 pm
oh i need to correct myself. My offer letter did state that I am eligible for OT compensation on a straight-time basis if preapproved.
Chad Miller
Nov 17, 22 9:58 am
The interesting thing is that the employment letter for OT compensation has no legal merit. The work around is the requirement for preapproval by a supervisor. It's a really weird system we have in the US.
Non Sequitur
Nov 10, 22 11:43 am
I limit myself to 40-42hr/week. Sometimes it gets closer to 50 but that's perhaps once or twice per year and under special circumstances. There is no need to work 60-70hrs a week and you're a fool if you let yourself get abused that way.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 12:29 pm
I'm in the same boat. I cap my overtime at an amount I'm willing to work for no pay.
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 1:06 pm
Yes a fool and a tool...
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 1:08 pm
To be fair - some people may not have a choice. If they can't leave the firm their at and the firm is requiring them to work that much . . .
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 6:41 pm
The pay DOES NOT suck - thats the reason quite a few agree to do these things...
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 22 1:03 pm
Unless you're making 1.5x for all of those hours worked beyond 40 the pay sucks. Even then if you're dong 60-70 week year round you better be making in the six digits at a minimum.
torr
Nov 10, 22 12:14 pm
I worked on international projects for 10 years and it was a lot of 60 hour weeks. You can't get around it because of the time zone. Coordination meetings can only be in the evenings. For presentations, it can be between 9pm to 1am. When you wake up, you have a 100 emails waiting because they are finishing their work day.
The only way out is to leave for local U.S. work. Ever since I left doing international projects, I average 40 hours.
monosierra
Nov 10, 22 12:18 pm
I've heard of such issues for firms that compete on price (and speed) in a race to the bottom. As others have pointed out, poor project and client management are common culprits. Unless the project is unprecedented in its scale, scope, and technical challenges there really shouldn't be mad hours all the time - and even in the case of, say, scrambling to finish a skyscraper before the WC begins, a proper schedule should be beneficial for the project itself.
A steady supply of foreign workers is usually the solution for some practices working in low margin sectors. This allows the firm to eke out a margin by lowering labor costs as much as possible from the non-Americans, who accept lower wages relative to their American colleagues in exchange for green card sponsorship.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 12:27 pm
Interesting.
I haven't heard of architectural firms using a green card as a method to get foreign workers. I thought it was difficult and costly for a firm to sponsor a foreign employee.
Is this something that is common in larger firms in metro areas?
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 1:12 pm
In a lot of cases it is a combo of higher ups not really understanding or appreciating what it actually takes to produce stuff, and the need to bill quickly. And yes, using H1B and EAD workers to fill in the gaps is also the tactic employed by larger firms in metros. Even medium or small firms sometimes...In any case it seems like a race to the bottom.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 1:34 pm
Thanks for the info!
I've never encountered this. Then again I've never worked on the coasts or in large firms (100 +). All of the firms I've worked for have been in the 10 - 40 people range. I know a lot of people who work in large midwest firms - they don't seem to use foreign workers.
Regardless, it's a very weird practice that doesn't seem sustainable but firms appear to keep doing it.
sameolddoctor
Nov 10, 22 7:27 pm
Chad - you have never encountered this cuz you probably work on "real" projects with a heart and soul, not ginormous no-name shit
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 22 9:55 am
Some of them are. Some of them are retail core and shell. Can't get less of a soul than that.
axonapoplectic
Nov 11, 22 10:14 am
1/4 of arch students in the US are international and need H1B visas to stay in the US. That number is higher if you’re recruiting in coastal markets. It’s not that firms are relying on foreign workers, it’s that there just aren’t as many domestic arch school grads in these markets.
Chad Miller
Nov 11, 22 10:39 am
That makes sense axon. US students aren't willing to work 60-70 hours a week for a low paying 40 hour a week salary.
sameolddoctor
Nov 11, 22 6:40 pm
Chad there are quite a lot of US kids who are also pulling these hours, unfortunately. The ones in need for visas (I was one, years and years ago) are just more eager...
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 12:25 pm
I'm not disputing that a lot of young professionals working long hours. What I'm saying is that more and more grads are fighting against the idea of working long hours for no pay.
Also I wouldn't say the young professionals needing a visa are more eager. They are desperate and have no other option. Basically they are indentured servants with no free will to change firms.
sameolddoctor
Nov 14, 22 3:06 pm
Yes of course, the eagerness is mostly forced.
Chad Miller
Nov 14, 22 3:31 pm
Forced eagerness - there is a joke in there somewhere. I'm not going to make it though.
JonathanLivingston
Nov 10, 22 2:17 pm
Man, I have recently cut back to 37hrs a week. looking to cut back to 35 soon. Half that, but with twice the focus.
Jay1122
Nov 10, 22 3:48 pm
I am actually curious on the cause. is the work that Avant garde? Requiring extensive efforts of design and detailing? Or is it just poor management. Excessive meetings to talk about every minor things and end up going no where only to try again with a new meeting? Hard to please clients/bosses requesting excessive iterations of design changes? Or is the firm simply trying to up the profit margin and accelerate project schedule while being understaffed? Or is the employee just not efficient due to the sheer size of the team. While long hours are put in, no quality work is being done.
Well, I am sure it will be another revolving door unless the Pay is really great. Or magazine appearance is one of the benefit.
Chad Miller
Nov 10, 22 4:38 pm
Having a project appear in a magazine isn't much of a reward. The owners and lead designers will get recognition. Everyone else would probably just be deemed 'support staff'.
square.
Nov 14, 22 3:25 pm
^this. why anyone is willing to over-burden themselves on projects in which you will receive no credit is beyond me. do what you need to do to produce a well crafted, safe project. but remember at the eod the owners and principles will be the ones lecturing and interviewing on podcasts about it, not you.
OneLostArchitect
Nov 10, 22 11:26 pm
I'm 40 hours a week. If I have to stay later a bit to finish a task I will but thats once in a blue moon and I try not to make it a habit. I was interviewed at one of the top firms in the world... a dream firm I always desired to work at. They were not shy in telling me they expect 60 hours a week on salary pay. Hard pass. Offer was lucrative but I did not accept the offer. I am not going to slave for a company anymore. You sometimes have to put a line in the sand and respect those boundaries. Maybe if I was young, single and desperate... but I do not work for free anymore and I refuse to be on salary.
thisisnotmyname
Nov 11, 22 10:26 am
It's good that the top firm disclosed their overtime expectations upfront. The sweatshops I've worked in never did so. Instead there were usually lines of bullsh*t about how end of year bonuses would make up for the hours your worked for free or if you worked quickly, you wouldn't ever need to stay late.
kenchiku
Nov 11, 22 9:14 am
I work 40hrs +/- 1-2hrs a week and the office has flex hours. One day a week tends to be quite long, usually 10-11hrs due to a project I'm on and timezone differences...but that means I'm usually only putting in 5-6hrs on Fridays.
square.
Nov 14, 22 12:21 pm
not surprised as much of the world is teasing the 4-day work week, architecture sees no opportunity post-pandemic and veers hard in the other direction - the reality is that most architectural work could be done in a 4 day/sub 40 hr work week, but we choose instead to waste time in the name of "productivity."
whistler
Nov 17, 22 7:20 pm
My office has had staff working 4-10hr days for 15 years... everyone is way more efficient with their time trying to finish what they have to do in the 4 days vs letting it drift into a 5th day. Staff get 3 day weekends every week, what's not to like!
zonker
Nov 15, 22 11:16 pm
That could change soon - with a recession on us and layoffs in tech - soo clients will once again pull in schedules thus forcing architecture staff to work longer faster hours - those that can't keep up will be benched/managed out the door
Not sure what the Archinect community experience is regarding work hours "after" the pandemic, but we are seeing a regular 60-70 hour work weeks, with multiple meetings scheduled every day with clients, consultants and the like. Seems like we are been taken more and more for granted in Zoom mode. Most of our work is international, so the clients are more than happy to keep meeting all the time.
I know another friend who's also working on international projects to have similar experience, wondering what experience others have these days.
This does suck.
I work on smaller projects ranging from $10 to $45 million with the occasional $190 million every few years. I'm doing 40 hours a week.
yes, 60-70 hours a week is completely extraneous and unnecessary
It's also unsustainable. Your firm will burn out people and cause them to leave.
I hope things improve for you soon!
Yes, that is the obvious side effect of such a toxic work culture
If it was obvious firms wouldn't do it. There is a diminishing supply of fresh grads willing to work in such conditions.
A deadline push here + there is one thing, but consistently working that many hours is either your own poor time management or poor project management by your firm leadership.
Even deadlines are no excuse for working that many hours.
We always have at least one deadline a month at our office. It's ridiculous to expect people to work 60-70 hours once a month.
That's 120 to 240 hours of unpaid overtime a year.
Assuming an average billable rate of $100 an hour that's a lot of money the firm is making while you're making nothing.
Why are you assuming it's unpaid?
Whoa. Tduds, that's a terribly skewed generalization there. Last week, I work 79 hours, company won't let me track it officially, but I did nonetheless. The company I work for got a shit ton of projects, with little to no staff to complete them, started up our MEP team at the same, then put three of the projects on the same schedule. Now mind you, my arch team is slim on experience, and we're trying to complete/manage a project with over 400 sheets.
So that is bad management, no beta?
And Chad is right, theres no overtime pay. That said most projects are on a fixed fee here so its mostly just bad management.
Wow, I'm dumbfounded that any adult in this profession is operating w/o overtime provisions in their employment contract. State / Fed. DOL rules don't come into play in your situation? Mostly agree w/ Non below, but am happy to work crazy hours (every once in a while) at x1.5 of my billable ;)
^ with SOD on that B3ta ... that's bad management by your firm... 1) Hire up so you can do the projects you get 2) sub out to other firms to do the work 3) don't take the work.
We've actually been doing the first two lately.
Appleseed - every US state has labor laws that say a 'professional' is exempt from overtime pay. There are also federal labor laws that have the same laws.
Individual states define a professional differently though. Some say any position where you have any amount of oversight of other staff makes you a professional. Where I'm from in Colorado once you're licensed you're a professional and no more overtime.
Regardless of the minutiae of the 'professional' exception, being expected to work 70 hr weeks when you're operating under the standard expectation of 40 (typ. boilerplate IME), sounds like indentured servitude to me. And doubles-down on the importance of having overtime pay (or PTO equiv.) baked into the employment contract.
I agree. Then again most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners. In the US all but one state is an 'employment at will' situation. This means you can be fired or quit without reason or additional compensation.
'most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners' - where do you come up with stuff like this? Balkins-level misinformation...
Chad is right, in california there is no overtime in architecture firms after a certain level
? If you're a firm owner and complaining about crazy hours, then that's kinda on you, no? And obviously, you can set a bonus or profit sharing to whatever, which effectively makes your point moot, as incentivized. Being someone who works in CA sometimes, I'd love to hear more about state regulation that prohibits 'overtime' at a 'certain level,' however that may be defined....especially as made specific to arch. firms - that would be a new one for me.
"Exempt Employees Certain California employees have always been “exempt” from overtime pay and other wage and hour regulations. Whether an employee is exempt turns on two factors: the nature of their duties and the amount of their pay. The duties test Employees who perform work that is “primarily intellectual, managerial or creative,” and which requires the exercise of “discretion and independent judgment” are exempt. Essentially, this definition means executive, administrative or professional employees. Professionals, such as architects or other persons providing similar design services, are almost always considered exempt. Support staff, in contrast, are almost never considered exempt."
Professionals, such as architects or other persons providing similar design services, are almost always considered exempt.
Yeah, it's poor mgmt. I was on a completely asinine call today, that had zero to with putting out the fire I'm dealing with, and everything to do with planning on stopping future fires. I'm like, my dude, I don't care, not right now. That took an hour, with four people. Three of whom were messaging me apologizing for this stupid shit.
Come on! Being exempted from state mandated overtime pay regulations does NOT preclude you from having a contract w/ overtime compensation provisions. You are being abused - do something about it. Last couple of years have been incredibly empowering for employees in our sector.
Apple, that totally depends on the firm. In my city, I have not seen a single firm offering non-exempt status for senior designers. For city-type jobs its a totally different story...
Apple, not everyone can be a contract employee. Yes, it does provide benefits, but there are also a lot of drawbacks. I'd be responsible for taxes, Healthcare, unemployment insurance and social security. Does anyone know how to do that, I don't.
Yes, it obviously depends on the firm - but I don't know anyone around here that doesn't, at minimum, have a written agreement w/ their W-2'd employees...and everything can be negotiated. Especially as a senior employee. Not talking about IC's.
The below H-1B example is a great citation; everything we're talking about here (hours / schedule + pay) is thoroughly documented in the visa application process. Both w/ the initial LCA and final authorization paperwork. OP may not be a visa holder, but being expected to work @ 175% of what's authorized (and compensated) would be a major violation for both employee and employer. Abuse of this is well known (unfortunately), especially in tech, where most of the H-1B hires are. Plenty of recourse available, however.
Appleseed wrote:
"Come on! Being exempted from state mandated overtime pay regulations does NOT preclude you from having a contract w/ overtime compensation provisions."
Correct.
Unfortunately the US is not similar to Europe and Canada when it comes to employment contracts. Not very many firms offer any sort of employment contract for those that aren't at least partial firm owner.
In addition, a W-2d is not an actual employment contract. The W2-d identifies how much you'll be compensated per hour or year. It doesn't have anything in in about what each parties responsibilities are, bonus structures, time off, leave, ect.
Appleseed wrote:
Chad wrote: 'most firms in the US don't have an employment contract except for the partners' - where do you come up with stuff like this? Balkins-level misinformation..."
See my comment above about the W-2d's. Could you please provide any info to back up your claim that employment contracts are common in the US for architects?
#unionize
Chad, I don't know anyone working w/o a basic agreement in place that spells out (most of) the items you mention. As you candidly admitted below, there's a rather large working population that you're apparently un-aware of, which has all of this carefully prescribed. Am I to really think that most people in architecture don't know their contracted PTO or vacation days?
I think we're having a communication problem.
I'm not saying that those things haven't been discussed and given to a staff member.
Vacation, PTO, other types of leave, and benefits are detailed in an employment letter, not a W-2d.
Your pay per hour our year are detailed in your W-2d.
Neither an employment letter or a W-2d are an employment contract in states that have 'at will employment'.
That at will employment is the important part. In addition, an employment contract must contain what responsibilities you and your employer have. What you're describing is a description of a compensation package. They may sound similar but legally they are very, very different.
Also I am quite aware of foreign workers in the architectural field. I wasn't aware of firms sponsoring a large number of foreign workers to gain a visa.
Contract / agreement / compensation package; for the purposes of resolving the OP's uncompensated OT issue, they are interchangeable.
I get what you're trying to say. Even in for the purpose of resolving this discussion the terms are not interchangeable though.
In the US only an employment contract can dictate additional compensated beyond a standard 40 hour work week.
Unfortunately most firms in the US won't negotiate overtime pay for exempt staff. As I said before, it's rare for anyone other than part owners to have employee contracts in the US.
Why don't we ask US architects. How many of you have language in your employee contract that provide you with additional compensation for overtime?
In CA, most firms follow hire-at-will, so I haven't seen any contract from the employer side. Under at will employment, Offer letters are typically used to capture the wage, work hours, and benefits. I've never seen offer letters stating the OT policy. However, my last EAC firm did have a clause in the employment guide book that the OT to be paid in straight rate and there were conditions like they need to be pre-approved by your line managers, etc. As for the OP's point, there needs to be a company wide policy change in response to the pandemic and increased demands from the international clients. Adjusting work hours, comp time, or additional compensation should be considered. however, from the legal standpoint, I'm not sure sure if one can use 'offer letter' as a basis to demand changes....
oh i need to correct myself. My offer letter did state that I am eligible for OT compensation on a straight-time basis if preapproved.
The interesting thing is that the employment letter for OT compensation has no legal merit. The work around is the requirement for preapproval by a supervisor. It's a really weird system we have in the US.
I limit myself to 40-42hr/week. Sometimes it gets closer to 50 but that's perhaps once or twice per year and under special circumstances. There is no need to work 60-70hrs a week and you're a fool if you let yourself get abused that way.
I'm in the same boat. I cap my overtime at an amount I'm willing to work for no pay.
Yes a fool and a tool...
To be fair - some people may not have a choice. If they can't leave the firm their at and the firm is requiring them to work that much . . .
The pay DOES NOT suck - thats the reason quite a few agree to do these things...
Unless you're making 1.5x for all of those hours worked beyond 40 the pay sucks. Even then if you're dong 60-70 week year round you better be making in the six digits at a minimum.
I worked on international projects for 10 years and it was a lot of 60 hour weeks. You can't get around it because of the time zone. Coordination meetings can only be in the evenings. For presentations, it can be between 9pm to 1am. When you wake up, you have a 100 emails waiting because they are finishing their work day.
The only way out is to leave for local U.S. work. Ever since I left doing international projects, I average 40 hours.
I've heard of such issues for firms that compete on price (and speed) in a race to the bottom. As others have pointed out, poor project and client management are common culprits. Unless the project is unprecedented in its scale, scope, and technical challenges there really shouldn't be mad hours all the time - and even in the case of, say, scrambling to finish a skyscraper before the WC begins, a proper schedule should be beneficial for the project itself.
A steady supply of foreign workers is usually the solution for some practices working in low margin sectors. This allows the firm to eke out a margin by lowering labor costs as much as possible from the non-Americans, who accept lower wages relative to their American colleagues in exchange for green card sponsorship.
Interesting.
I haven't heard of architectural firms using a green card as a method to get foreign workers. I thought it was difficult and costly for a firm to sponsor a foreign employee.
Is this something that is common in larger firms in metro areas?
In a lot of cases it is a combo of higher ups not really understanding or appreciating what it actually takes to produce stuff, and the need to bill quickly. And yes, using H1B and EAD workers to fill in the gaps is also the tactic employed by larger firms in metros. Even medium or small firms sometimes...In any case it seems like a race to the bottom.
Thanks for the info!
I've never encountered this. Then again I've never worked on the coasts or in large firms (100 +). All of the firms I've worked for have been in the 10 - 40 people range. I know a lot of people who work in large midwest firms - they don't seem to use foreign workers.
Regardless, it's a very weird practice that doesn't seem sustainable but firms appear to keep doing it.
Chad - you have never encountered this cuz you probably work on "real" projects with a heart and soul, not ginormous no-name shit
Some of them are. Some of them are retail core and shell. Can't get less of a soul than that.
1/4 of arch students in the US are international and need H1B visas to stay in the US. That number is higher if you’re recruiting in coastal markets. It’s not that firms are relying on foreign workers, it’s that there just aren’t as many domestic arch school grads in these markets.
That makes sense axon. US students aren't willing to work 60-70 hours a week for a low paying 40 hour a week salary.
Chad there are quite a lot of US kids who are also pulling these hours, unfortunately. The ones in need for visas (I was one, years and years ago) are just more eager...
I'm not disputing that a lot of young professionals working long hours. What I'm saying is that more and more grads are fighting against the idea of working long hours for no pay.
Also I wouldn't say the young professionals needing a visa are more eager. They are desperate and have no other option. Basically they are indentured servants with no free will to change firms.
Yes of course, the eagerness is mostly forced.
Forced eagerness - there is a joke in there somewhere. I'm not going to make it though.
Man, I have recently cut back to 37hrs a week. looking to cut back to 35 soon. Half that, but with twice the focus.
I am actually curious on the cause. is the work that Avant garde? Requiring extensive efforts of design and detailing? Or is it just poor management. Excessive meetings to talk about every minor things and end up going no where only to try again with a new meeting? Hard to please clients/bosses requesting excessive iterations of design changes? Or is the firm simply trying to up the profit margin and accelerate project schedule while being understaffed? Or is the employee just not efficient due to the sheer size of the team. While long hours are put in, no quality work is being done.
Well, I am sure it will be another revolving door unless the Pay is really great. Or magazine appearance is one of the benefit.
Having a project appear in a magazine isn't much of a reward. The owners and lead designers will get recognition. Everyone else would probably just be deemed 'support staff'.
^this. why anyone is willing to over-burden themselves on projects in which you will receive no credit is beyond me. do what you need to do to produce a well crafted, safe project. but remember at the eod the owners and principles will be the ones lecturing and interviewing on podcasts about it, not you.
I'm 40 hours a week. If I have to stay later a bit to finish a task I will but thats once in a blue moon and I try not to make it a habit. I was interviewed at one of the top firms in the world... a dream firm I always desired to work at. They were not shy in telling me they expect 60 hours a week on salary pay. Hard pass. Offer was lucrative but I did not accept the offer. I am not going to slave for a company anymore. You sometimes have to put a line in the sand and respect those boundaries. Maybe if I was young, single and desperate... but I do not work for free anymore and I refuse to be on salary.
It's good that the top firm disclosed their overtime expectations upfront. The sweatshops I've worked in never did so. Instead there were usually lines of bullsh*t about how end of year bonuses would make up for the hours your worked for free or if you worked quickly, you wouldn't ever need to stay late.
I work 40hrs +/- 1-2hrs a week and the office has flex hours. One day a week tends to be quite long, usually 10-11hrs due to a project I'm on and timezone differences...but that means I'm usually only putting in 5-6hrs on Fridays.
not surprised as much of the world is teasing the 4-day work week, architecture sees no opportunity post-pandemic and veers hard in the other direction - the reality is that most architectural work could be done in a 4 day/sub 40 hr work week, but we choose instead to waste time in the name of "productivity."
My office has had staff working 4-10hr days for 15 years... everyone is way more efficient with their time trying to finish what they have to do in the 4 days vs letting it drift into a 5th day. Staff get 3 day weekends every week, what's not to like!
That could change soon - with a recession on us and layoffs in tech - soo clients will once again pull in schedules thus forcing architecture staff to work longer faster hours - those that can't keep up will be benched/managed out the door
Only if you work with a shitty firm.
https://www.npr.org/sections/m...
Almost threw in the towel today ... f this.
Do we work together?
Not sure, others where I work just sit with their heads down...I seem to be the only crazy one that acts out...
Momma said there'd be days like that.
sameold - When you say 'acts out' what do you mean?
Acts out = expresses the obvious craziness of the schedules etc.
Expressing respectful dissent is preferred over flipping the table. What's the zoom equivalent of flipping the table? No..... Log off ?