As the title suggests, I'd love to start a conversation about how the profession has treated you compared to what you were hoping for when you first fell in love with architecture as a student. I see a lot of people on here who seem a bit sour about the industry and I wonder if you feel that the time and money you invested to become an architect were worth it looking back. Are you financially comfortable? Do you enjoy the work you do?
I myself am currently weighing my 3 year MArch offers (Michigan, UVA, Pratt, RISD) and wanted to hear how people much further along in their careers than myself feel about this path.
As of now I work as a designer at a firm that does mostly multi-family residential projects. I really like the people I work with and I'm learning a ton. It's not the most innovative work and I don't make much money but I think I have a pretty good gig for somebody with only a BA from a liberal arts school to my name.
I loved the academic studios in my undergrad and at GSD's design discovery. I find concept development and formal manipulation of my ideas so thrilling but is any of real world architecture actually like this? At least the kind that makes any money at all? Are the only people who actually get to do this the top dogs at places like Snohetta, DSR, BIG, etc. while everybody else just pumps out details and technical drawings for them?
I don't care about being filthy rich and I don't need to be a famous spaceshipy starchitect but I want to feel like I can provide for a family living in a northeast city and enjoy things like good food and occasional travel while also doing work that I find exciting and creative. Is that a fantasy or possible?
TLDR:
Can architects make a comfortable living AND get to do exciting design based work? Any advice for finding that sweet spot?
SneakyPete
Mar 15, 22 12:08 pm
The architect in me would be proud of my work. But I'd tell younger me to go do something else, preferably in nature with fewer coworkers.
Ricardo Chavez
Mar 18, 22 4:44 pm
haha this so much! i would tell my younger self to code and make money.
geezertect
Mar 19, 22 9:16 am
+++++
reallynotmyname
Mar 15, 22 2:50 pm
Quite a few of my classmates from the late 90's seem to be doing fine in the Northeast. The only exception is NYC, where affordability issues have allowed very few people I know to remain there long-term.
RJ87
Mar 15, 22 3:24 pm
After writing my reply I realized it's probably the longest response I've ever given. So forgive me, there was a lot to unpack & I'm bored in the car riding shotgun back from a job site.
My advice to anyone going into Architecture is to understand that like many professional jobs there are a lot of different avenues within the profession that often lead to different outcomes. In school we often focus on only the "magazine cover" projects like museums, airports, churches, etc. The inherent risk with that environment is that many students fall in love with that particular avenue of project type, then go out into the real world & find a job that doesn't work in that sector only to be disappointed with the type of projects they do work on. Which I don't think is fair to the profession. If you wanted to be an trial attorney but found a job as an attorney working on wills & trusts, it wouldn't be the laws fault. Same goes with architecture. Different project types have their advantages & disadvantages. Find one that works for you.
School also heavily emphasizes the design phase, which is only a portion of the job & often times not a portion that new graduates are a part of from a decision making standpoint. The vast majority of the time is spent actually making that design come to fruition, which is understated in academia. Likely because of the time restraints involved & the how jarring / stunting it would be for students to have that thrown on them during design school. I particularly enjoy the puzzle & problem solving portion of the job, some people hate it because of the limitations it puts on the artistic side of your brain.
As for financial stability, there are a number of factors that go into that as well. Some folks take on large amounts of debt attending particular schools, move to some of the most expensive cities in the world, get a job & then cry wolf that it's not financially palatable with loan interest payments, high rent, no license & a job that they are expected to work more hours than they are paid for. There are plenty of offices around the country with healthy financial margins that treat employees like civilized professionals, find one of those & don't get trapped working for free.
Licensure is also important, as it is the most likely pathway to where the real money in the profession is: owning your own firm. It's not easy to start & manage a firm, but it is the way to make the most money down the road. With risk comes reward for a healthy well run office. Otherwise you'll be working for someone else your entire career for a good (relative to the rest of society) wage but not "great" wage. I consider myself to be relatively well paid for the area I live, but I have no expectation of getting to the income I want until I have more experience & manage a firm.
TLDR: Yes, it's possible. But be cognizant of the decisions you make that are not inherently architecture specific. What will be your realistic projected income, what debt have you / will you incur, what's the cost of living where you decide to live, what is the "culture" / environment of the place you work (is it a well run business or just "pretty"?), are you doing the things that open doors for more financial security like getting licensed?
RJ87
Mar 15, 22 3:34 pm
But anyways, yeah, I'd probably do it again. But less so for my current wage & more because I think I'll be more productive monetizing architecture down the road. I'd make a little more (probably 10k or so) if I was an attorney with the same amount of experience (little under 4 years), but I don't think I would enjoy it as much / wouldn't be as good at running an office later on in my career.
natematt
Mar 18, 22 4:56 pm
Law is even more contingent on how good/lucky you are. If you do well you'd make a LOT more money... like twice as much. If you did poorly, you'd never have a job.
archanonymous
Mar 15, 22 4:26 pm
Have worked at one of the firms you name. The firm leaders and design principals there don't get to do the fun parts - massing, building models, manipulating ideas, etc. They just review and guide (or sometimes participate a bit) the work that their teams do in this realm in between traveling to client meetings, interviews, openings, lectures and teaching. Their lives seem shit to me.
As far as finding joy in the work, you can get there with certain positions, but there's a whole hell of a lot of excel, reading code and contracts, meetings, email and all the other office bullshit in between.
MiesVanDerWoah
Mar 18, 22 1:44 pm
Thanks, this is helpful! While lectures and teaching on the side actually sounds somewhat appealing to me right now, I agree that that doesn't sound like the ideal life. What are the job titles of the people on these teams/team leads?
Would you say that to eventually maximize income it is necessary to leave these roles to more oversight and administrative positions?
archanonymous
Mar 18, 22 5:25 pm
Team leads are Project Leaders, Project Architects, or Senior Architects at most of these places. They all follow the OMA model more or less where there's a 7-15 year experience team leader that corrals the internal team and external consultants, sometime with a project manager or project architect to help. Sometimes one of the junior staff will be the production captain but often not.
The people working on the projects are Junior Designers, Design Team Members, Architects, Project Designers, and the like. Everyone has different nomenclature. At the best firms there's not like interns or junior people that just render or just draw bathroom details all day, you spend all your time working on design, building models, making renderings, etc....
If you want to maximize income, don't work at a Starchitect firm unless you are confident you yourself can become a starchitect afterwards.
whistler
Mar 15, 22 7:59 pm
Short answer is ;
- Yes ( Pacific Northwest )
Long answer is;
- make yourself employable ( learn skills that are needed and desired in the profession )
- be realistic not every project will win an award ( but as you get older hopefully you can turn down the bad projects and you will also learn to see them coming... bad clients too )
- take on work / clients that interest you
- pick your battles, you don't have to get blood from a stone ( Fountainhead is not realistic in this day and age .. or for that matter that day and age )
- be responsible, ethical and do your best. Leave the world a better place with projects / work that improves condition of that site or location.
- understand your value and make sure your clients do as well.. get paid.
MiesVanDerWoah
Mar 18, 22 1:41 pm
Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses! It's interesting to hear the different perspectives and advice.
From this and talking with other connections it sounds like, while the industry is far from perfect, it is possible to find a rewarding (and financially stable) trajectory if I'm intentional about building the necessary skills and realistic about the day to day responsibilities of the job.
Setting myself up to leave grad school without debt and with strong connections to people in the industry doing or hiring for the type of work I want to do will be the goal.
Ricardo Chavez
Mar 18, 22 4:45 pm
Having no debt will be hugely benificial, as your not tied down to any financial responsbilities.
Ricardo Chavez
Mar 18, 22 4:54 pm
I think architecture is fulfilling depending on your financial situation and your connections. Architecture still remains a profession for the rich, the only difference is having talent in architecture can get you far.
For example, My friend A. He was mostly a ghost through studio, came from rich family and went on to do his masters,travel, etc. When he graduated his father set him up with a prestigious firm. Two years after graduation his father helped him set up shop as a design build firm for all his connection. Most of the time he spends his days surfing...
Friend B, had to work through studio, couldn't go to trips, etc and started working his 3rd year full time. His work was amazing, and he ended up getting job offer from a starchitect upon graduation. he is about to make his own studio now, but took him a long time to get there as opposed to friend A, because he had to save enough money to take the hit, but im happy for him because he will make it.
Personally, I am more focused on making money right now for my family. Do i wish i could design cool shit, yes. But i knew that if I went down that path i would cut time way from my kids. And i kid you not most architects i meet are divorced. So i made it my mission to never work overtime and do things my way.
So far its been great because im more of BIM manager/VDC for consrtuction company and make over six figures. I work my 8 hours then im out, sometimes less.
But i am gratefull for architecture, as it lead me down this path.
natematt
Mar 18, 22 5:11 pm
I feel like I’ve actually seen some counter-intuitive statistics about architecture and engineering having a fairly low divorce rate (maybe the engineers are throwing the stats off).
Ricardo Chavez
Mar 18, 22 6:24 pm
haha maybe, they tend to group them together. Personally most of my senior peers that i have worked under have been divorced. Most into their 3rd or 4th marriage, the ones that where married seemed to be the ones that worked only 8 hours, or spouse was in a higher position financially.
bowling_ball
Mar 18, 22 7:20 pm
I know almost nobody (that I'm aware of) in this profession who's been divorced. Maybe one or two people among hundreds. My experience also doesn't match. Anecdata, I know. Having said that, almost no couples made it through architecture school intact. It's a different beast
midlander
Mar 19, 22 10:04 am
interesting comment. i actually know only one person in my bigger friend group [late thirties] who has divorced. a couple others widowed. this doesn't seem to fit the statistics, but maybe i have an abnormal pattern of social connections.
midlander
Mar 19, 22 10:05 am
and that divorced couple weren't architects.
le bossman
Mar 18, 22 6:59 pm
Personally, I would say I've had rewarding career without working for Snohetta, DSR, BIG, etc. Whenever it is time to put a portfolio together, the difficulty is what to take out, not what to leave in. You don't need to go to a big name school or work for a big name firm to have a great career and make money. I've worked with people from just about every architecture school there ever was in one way or another. That's another thing - I would say where you go to school is of exaggerated importance in terms of career success. If you are good at what you do, you can figure it out regardless of where you get your degree from. The farther you get from your education, the more your career just becomes another part of your life.
midlander
Mar 19, 22 9:50 am
i think the hardest thing for young architects to imagine is how much your goals and interests will change. for many, this means eventually reaching a point where the pleasure gained from working hard contributing to the execution of a design fades while the ambition for money fits into a broader desire for recognition and influence.
this might not happen to you, but if you do start to feel discouraged as you progress take the signal seriously and think through what it suggests. architecture is not a career that sets a path for you nor helps you grow into what you will want.
you need to keep self aware and make intentional efforts to develop yourself. those who don't and simply stay in place tend to get stuck and burned out, or laid off and bitter.
myself, i've changed jobs more than i ever expected and made a few big changes that surprised old friends, but i'm also very happy with my career and reasonably comfortable financially.
midlander
Mar 19, 22 9:58 am
i should add - 20 years after starting my studies in architecture - none of the truly bad things in my life or serious disruptions have been connected to my career choices. it's easy to overthink the importance of it. all the best things have come from friendships, love and my healthy enjoyment of life. work is just an entertaining occasion to earn money that ties into one of my several fascinations.
As the title suggests, I'd love to start a conversation about how the profession has treated you compared to what you were hoping for when you first fell in love with architecture as a student. I see a lot of people on here who seem a bit sour about the industry and I wonder if you feel that the time and money you invested to become an architect were worth it looking back. Are you financially comfortable? Do you enjoy the work you do?
I myself am currently weighing my 3 year MArch offers (Michigan, UVA, Pratt, RISD) and wanted to hear how people much further along in their careers than myself feel about this path.
As of now I work as a designer at a firm that does mostly multi-family residential projects. I really like the people I work with and I'm learning a ton. It's not the most innovative work and I don't make much money but I think I have a pretty good gig for somebody with only a BA from a liberal arts school to my name.
I loved the academic studios in my undergrad and at GSD's design discovery. I find concept development and formal manipulation of my ideas so thrilling but is any of real world architecture actually like this? At least the kind that makes any money at all? Are the only people who actually get to do this the top dogs at places like Snohetta, DSR, BIG, etc. while everybody else just pumps out details and technical drawings for them?
I don't care about being filthy rich and I don't need to be a famous spaceshipy starchitect but I want to feel like I can provide for a family living in a northeast city and enjoy things like good food and occasional travel while also doing work that I find exciting and creative. Is that a fantasy or possible?
TLDR:
Can architects make a comfortable living AND get to do exciting design based work? Any advice for finding that sweet spot?
The architect in me would be proud of my work. But I'd tell younger me to go do something else, preferably in nature with fewer coworkers.
haha this so much! i would tell my younger self to code and make money.
+++++
Quite a few of my classmates from the late 90's seem to be doing fine in the Northeast. The only exception is NYC, where affordability issues have allowed very few people I know to remain there long-term.
After writing my reply I realized it's probably the longest response I've ever given. So forgive me, there was a lot to unpack & I'm bored in the car riding shotgun back from a job site.
My advice to anyone going into Architecture is to understand that like many professional jobs there are a lot of different avenues within the profession that often lead to different outcomes. In school we often focus on only the "magazine cover" projects like museums, airports, churches, etc. The inherent risk with that environment is that many students fall in love with that particular avenue of project type, then go out into the real world & find a job that doesn't work in that sector only to be disappointed with the type of projects they do work on. Which I don't think is fair to the profession. If you wanted to be an trial attorney but found a job as an attorney working on wills & trusts, it wouldn't be the laws fault. Same goes with architecture. Different project types have their advantages & disadvantages. Find one that works for you.
School also heavily emphasizes the design phase, which is only a portion of the job & often times not a portion that new graduates are a part of from a decision making standpoint. The vast majority of the time is spent actually making that design come to fruition, which is understated in academia. Likely because of the time restraints involved & the how jarring / stunting it would be for students to have that thrown on them during design school. I particularly enjoy the puzzle & problem solving portion of the job, some people hate it because of the limitations it puts on the artistic side of your brain.
As for financial stability, there are a number of factors that go into that as well. Some folks take on large amounts of debt attending particular schools, move to some of the most expensive cities in the world, get a job & then cry wolf that it's not financially palatable with loan interest payments, high rent, no license & a job that they are expected to work more hours than they are paid for. There are plenty of offices around the country with healthy financial margins that treat employees like civilized professionals, find one of those & don't get trapped working for free.
Licensure is also important, as it is the most likely pathway to where the real money in the profession is: owning your own firm. It's not easy to start & manage a firm, but it is the way to make the most money down the road. With risk comes reward for a healthy well run office. Otherwise you'll be working for someone else your entire career for a good (relative to the rest of society) wage but not "great" wage. I consider myself to be relatively well paid for the area I live, but I have no expectation of getting to the income I want until I have more experience & manage a firm.
TLDR: Yes, it's possible. But be cognizant of the decisions you make that are not inherently architecture specific. What will be your realistic projected income, what debt have you / will you incur, what's the cost of living where you decide to live, what is the "culture" / environment of the place you work (is it a well run business or just "pretty"?), are you doing the things that open doors for more financial security like getting licensed?
But anyways, yeah, I'd probably do it again. But less so for my current wage & more because I think I'll be more productive monetizing architecture down the road. I'd make a little more (probably 10k or so) if I was an attorney with the same amount of experience (little under 4 years), but I don't think I would enjoy it as much / wouldn't be as good at running an office later on in my career.
Law is even more contingent on how good/lucky you are. If you do well you'd make a LOT more money... like twice as much. If you did poorly, you'd never have a job.
Have worked at one of the firms you name. The firm leaders and design principals there don't get to do the fun parts - massing, building models, manipulating ideas, etc. They just review and guide (or sometimes participate a bit) the work that their teams do in this realm in between traveling to client meetings, interviews, openings, lectures and teaching. Their lives seem shit to me.
As far as finding joy in the work, you can get there with certain positions, but there's a whole hell of a lot of excel, reading code and contracts, meetings, email and all the other office bullshit in between.
Thanks, this is helpful! While lectures and teaching on the side actually sounds somewhat appealing to me right now, I agree that that doesn't sound like the ideal life. What are the job titles of the people on these teams/team leads? Would you say that to eventually maximize income it is necessary to leave these roles to more oversight and administrative positions?
Team leads are Project Leaders, Project Architects, or Senior Architects at most of these places. They all follow the OMA model more or less where there's a 7-15 year experience team leader that corrals the internal team and external consultants, sometime with a project manager or project architect to help. Sometimes one of the junior staff will be the production captain but often not.
The people working on the projects are Junior Designers, Design Team Members, Architects, Project Designers, and the like. Everyone has different nomenclature. At the best firms there's not like interns or junior people that just render or just draw bathroom details all day, you spend all your time working on design, building models, making renderings, etc....
If you want to maximize income, don't work at a Starchitect firm unless you are confident you yourself can become a starchitect afterwards.
Short answer is ;
- Yes ( Pacific Northwest )
Long answer is;
- make yourself employable ( learn skills that are needed and desired in the profession )
- be realistic not every project will win an award ( but as you get older hopefully you can turn down the bad projects and you will also learn to see them coming... bad clients too )
- take on work / clients that interest you
- pick your battles, you don't have to get blood from a stone ( Fountainhead is not realistic in this day and age .. or for that matter that day and age )
- be responsible, ethical and do your best. Leave the world a better place with projects / work that improves condition of that site or location.
- understand your value and make sure your clients do as well.. get paid.
Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses! It's interesting to hear the different perspectives and advice.
From this and talking with other connections it sounds like, while the industry is far from perfect, it is possible to find a rewarding (and financially stable) trajectory if I'm intentional about building the necessary skills and realistic about the day to day responsibilities of the job.
Setting myself up to leave grad school without debt and with strong connections to people in the industry doing or hiring for the type of work I want to do will be the goal.
Having no debt will be hugely benificial, as your not tied down to any financial responsbilities.
I think architecture is fulfilling depending on your financial situation and your connections.
Architecture still remains a profession for the rich, the only difference is having talent in architecture can get you far.
For example, My friend A. He was mostly a ghost through studio, came from rich family and went on to do his masters,travel, etc. When he graduated his father set him up with a prestigious firm. Two years after graduation his father helped him set up shop as a design build firm for all his connection. Most of the time he spends his days surfing...
Friend B, had to work through studio, couldn't go to trips, etc and started working his 3rd year full time. His work was amazing, and he ended up getting job offer from a starchitect upon graduation. he is about to make his own studio now, but took him a long time to get there as opposed to friend A, because he had to save enough money to take the hit, but im happy for him because he will make it.
Personally, I am more focused on making money right now for my family. Do i wish i could design cool shit, yes. But i knew that if I went down that path i would cut time way from my kids. And i kid you not most architects i meet are divorced. So i made it my mission to never work overtime and do things my way.
So far its been great because im more of BIM manager/VDC for consrtuction company and make over six figures. I work my 8 hours then im out, sometimes less.
But i am gratefull for architecture, as it lead me down this path.
I feel like I’ve actually seen some counter-intuitive statistics about architecture and engineering having a fairly low divorce rate (maybe the engineers are throwing the stats off).
haha maybe, they tend to group them together. Personally most of my senior peers that i have worked under have been divorced. Most into their 3rd or 4th marriage, the ones that where married seemed to be the ones that worked only 8 hours, or spouse was in a higher position financially.
I know almost nobody (that I'm aware of) in this profession who's been divorced. Maybe one or two people among hundreds. My experience also doesn't match. Anecdata, I know. Having said that, almost no couples made it through architecture school intact. It's a different beast
interesting comment. i actually know only one person in my bigger friend group [late thirties] who has divorced. a couple others widowed. this doesn't seem to fit the statistics, but maybe i have an abnormal pattern of social connections.
and that divorced couple weren't architects.
Personally, I would say I've had rewarding career without working for Snohetta, DSR, BIG, etc. Whenever it is time to put a portfolio together, the difficulty is what to take out, not what to leave in. You don't need to go to a big name school or work for a big name firm to have a great career and make money. I've worked with people from just about every architecture school there ever was in one way or another. That's another thing - I would say where you go to school is of exaggerated importance in terms of career success. If you are good at what you do, you can figure it out regardless of where you get your degree from. The farther you get from your education, the more your career just becomes another part of your life.
i think the hardest thing for young architects to imagine is how much your goals and interests will change. for many, this means eventually reaching a point where the pleasure gained from working hard contributing to the execution of a design fades while the ambition for money fits into a broader desire for recognition and influence.
this might not happen to you, but if you do start to feel discouraged as you progress take the signal seriously and think through what it suggests. architecture is not a career that sets a path for you nor helps you grow into what you will want.
you need to keep self aware and make intentional efforts to develop yourself. those who don't and simply stay in place tend to get stuck and burned out, or laid off and bitter.
myself, i've changed jobs more than i ever expected and made a few big changes that surprised old friends, but i'm also very happy with my career and reasonably comfortable financially.
i should add - 20 years after starting my studies in architecture - none of the truly bad things in my life or serious disruptions have been connected to my career choices. it's easy to overthink the importance of it. all the best things have come from friendships, love and my healthy enjoyment of life. work is just an entertaining occasion to earn money that ties into one of my several fascinations.