The project I am working on is a community clinic in LA area, per CBC 422.2, their exam rooms are separated from other area with 1 Hour rated wall.
Do 1-Hr rated wall require "Fire Damper" in this case?
Please advise!
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 9:27 pm
If you don't know the answer (or where to find it) to this simple question, then you're not qualified to take on this project.
natematt
Sep 9, 21 10:17 pm
To echo NS. Asking this as a yes/no question with the information you have provided suggests you don't know where to look, and should really not be asking this sort of question here as it requires actual code analysis for your building that someone at your company should be doing.
If a Jr staffer from my office asked me this question, I'd tell them to look at the CBC 717 to try to figure it out, then to talk to their supervisor about it.... also to confirm they aren't working in the City of LA, and under LABC instead of CBC.
The answer may vary depending on the occupancy type, rated wall type, sprinkler situation in the building, penetration size, if the building is a high-rise, use of the space, etc, etc, etc, etc. Not necessarily a hard question to answer, but you need to know the information, and look it up.
Even if you were to provide all the required information to answer this, it is unlikely anyone in this forum would give you a concrete answer, because no one wants to incur even a speck of liability over this sort of thing.
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 21 11:17 am
Also we don't want to do the OP's job without getting paid for it . . .
wakwak
Sep 10, 21 10:59 am
Yes, that is true, it is not something I should have asked here. No body gave me a concrete answer (Mechanical engineer, city's plan checker etc) I just gave it try here. thanks
Non Sequitur
Sep 10, 21 11:21 am
My mech consultants will show dampers where required but I have to tell them which walls are rated and it is not the job of the city to tell you your, or your consultant's job.
Maybe get better consultants?
Maybe read your building code section on dampers?
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 21 11:57 am
It's not that hard, at least in the IBC. If you have a rated assembly and a duct moves through it you need a damper. Not sure about the OP's local codes. Regardless, this isn't a difficult question. :s
natematt
Sep 11, 21 2:09 am
Chad, per your comment below I'd argue it's not that simpe, because there is some reasonable chance for exceptions based on the type of wall, which is... probably a fire partition along a corridor in a B occupancy non-high-rise building that is fully sprinklered...but then again any and or all of those may be wrong. :)
Wakwak - do you work with more experienced architects?
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 21 11:14 am
Is this a fire wall, fire barrier, or fire partition?
Non Sequitur
Sep 10, 21 11:19 am
My favorite is a fire watch... which, according to my national firecode is nothing more than a person, a folding chair, and an extinguisher. The only job for this person is to sit and watch in case a fire appears. Not a permanent solution obviously, but it is a thing I've had to specify once where the GC accidentally remove the rated partition of an egress stair, on the 3rd floor of a 10-storey office building. The client had to post a security guard 24/7 until the problem got resolved.
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 21 11:28 am
Interesting. I've never encountered that one. I'm now going to specify a fire watch instead of fire walls. It will make the detailing a lot simpler for me.
Non Sequitur
Sep 10, 21 11:53 am
Chad, the circumstances in which I discovered this were, how do I put it... they were tense. I was freshly licensed at the time and doing regular site reviews and I noticed the missing wall. I brought it up to the senior arch and then next thing I know... I'm in a closed-door meeting with the office's ownership (who hold lability, off course). Much time was spent on the legalese of the emails that went out to the client and GC that day.
Chad Miller
Sep 10, 21 11:56 am
I've heard of having to do a fire watch in code seminars. Glad I've never had to use one. Sounds like a huge pain . . .
Everyday Architect
Sep 10, 21 12:22 pm
That's really interesting. I've heard of fire watches in reference to OSHA requirements for certain activities (like welding), but never for a situation like that.
That is where I remember it from as well. I still like the idea of hiring someone named Dave to sit by an opening with a few fire extinguishers . . . .
Everyday Architect
Sep 10, 21 12:54 pm
Reminds me of OSHA allowing a "safety monitor" for fall protection on low-slope roofs. Basically hire Dave to stand on the roof and yell at people as they get close to the edge (there more to it than that but you can go down your own rabbit hole).
Non Sequitur
Sep 10, 21 12:59 pm
Sorry lads... I made an error. Turns out a fire watch person also needs to carry a flashlight. But you're right EA, a fire watch is typically required for hot-work.
SneakyPete
Sep 10, 21 5:37 pm
Oh, fire WATCH, I thought you said CROTCH.
joseffischer
Sep 10, 21 6:38 pm
surprised... I'm not saying it's common, but fire watches are frequent enough in our phased-occupied work to have standard procedures around them. we never design the phases that way of course, and so far the contractor has always brought it to the fire marshal as a proposed way to solve a schedule issue and not a "whoops" moment like Non describes. Still, it gets me wondering if I deal with lenient fire marshals.
Josh Mings
Sep 10, 21 11:26 am
We're really putting a damper on your mood, aren't we?
The project I am working on is a community clinic in LA area, per CBC 422.2, their exam rooms are separated from other area with 1 Hour rated wall.
Do 1-Hr rated wall require "Fire Damper" in this case?
Please advise!
If you don't know the answer (or where to find it) to this simple question, then you're not qualified to take on this project.
To echo NS. Asking this as a yes/no question with the information you have provided suggests you don't know where to look, and should really not be asking this sort of question here as it requires actual code analysis for your building that someone at your company should be doing.
If a Jr staffer from my office asked me this question, I'd tell them to look at the CBC 717 to try to figure it out, then to talk to their supervisor about it.... also to confirm they aren't working in the City of LA, and under LABC instead of CBC.
The answer may vary depending on the occupancy type, rated wall type, sprinkler situation in the building, penetration size, if the building is a high-rise, use of the space, etc, etc, etc, etc. Not necessarily a hard question to answer, but you need to know the information, and look it up.
Even if you were to provide all the required information to answer this, it is unlikely anyone in this forum would give you a concrete answer, because no one wants to incur even a speck of liability over this sort of thing.
Also we don't want to do the OP's job without getting paid for it . . .
Yes, that is true, it is not something I should have asked here. No body gave me a concrete answer (Mechanical engineer, city's plan checker etc) I just gave it try here. thanks
My mech consultants will show dampers where required but I have to tell them which walls are rated and it is not the job of the city to tell you your, or your consultant's job.
Maybe get better consultants?
Maybe read your building code section on dampers?
It's not that hard, at least in the IBC. If you have a rated assembly and a duct moves through it you need a damper. Not sure about the OP's local codes. Regardless, this isn't a difficult question. :s
Chad, per your comment below I'd argue it's not that simpe, because there is some reasonable chance for exceptions based on the type of wall, which is... probably a fire partition along a corridor in a B occupancy non-high-rise building that is fully sprinklered...but then again any and or all of those may be wrong. :)
Wakwak - do you work with more experienced architects?
Is this a fire wall, fire barrier, or fire partition?
My favorite is a fire watch... which, according to my national firecode is nothing more than a person, a folding chair, and an extinguisher. The only job for this person is to sit and watch in case a fire appears. Not a permanent solution obviously, but it is a thing I've had to specify once where the GC accidentally remove the rated partition of an egress stair, on the 3rd floor of a 10-storey office building. The client had to post a security guard 24/7 until the problem got resolved.
Interesting. I've never encountered that one. I'm now going to specify a fire watch instead of fire walls. It will make the detailing a lot simpler for me.
Chad, the circumstances in which I discovered this were, how do I put it... they were tense. I was freshly licensed at the time and doing regular site reviews and I noticed the missing wall. I brought it up to the senior arch and then next thing I know... I'm in a closed-door meeting with the office's ownership (who hold lability, off course). Much time was spent on the legalese of the emails that went out to the client and GC that day.
I've heard of having to do a fire watch in code seminars. Glad I've never had to use one. Sounds like a huge pain . . .
That's really interesting. I've heard of fire watches in reference to OSHA requirements for certain activities (like welding), but never for a situation like that.
And now I'm in a NFPA rabbit hole (https://www.qrfs.com/blog/275-...). Time to stop digging and get back to other work
That is where I remember it from as well. I still like the idea of hiring someone named Dave to sit by an opening with a few fire extinguishers . . . .
Reminds me of OSHA allowing a "safety monitor" for fall protection on low-slope roofs. Basically hire Dave to stand on the roof and yell at people as they get close to the edge (there more to it than that but you can go down your own rabbit hole).
Sorry lads... I made an error. Turns out a fire watch person also needs to carry a flashlight. But you're right EA, a fire watch is typically required for hot-work.
Oh, fire WATCH, I thought you said CROTCH.
surprised... I'm not saying it's common, but fire watches are frequent enough in our phased-occupied work to have standard procedures around them. we never design the phases that way of course, and so far the contractor has always brought it to the fire marshal as a proposed way to solve a schedule issue and not a "whoops" moment like Non describes. Still, it gets me wondering if I deal with lenient fire marshals.
We're really putting a damper on your mood, aren't we?
::rim shot::