I've applied for 22 jobs in the last two months, and gotten two interviews. (ie. a 9% response rate in terms of getting some kind of positive outcome.) I'm at a junior experience level in what I suspect is a difficult job market, with a pandemic-shaped hole in my resume.
I've applied to firms across a spectrum of what I would consider to be (in the sense of college admissions terms) "matches" and "reaches" and "safeties," and the two which responded were "matches" in addition to a personalized rejection I got from a "reach" firm. I guess that means I'm (hopefully) a competitive applicant, and I just need to persist in applying to more places. I've been trying to occasionally change up my tactics in terms of how I approach my cover letters & portfolios, but so far I guess I don't have enough data to notice any dramatic correlations with certain approaches.
When I was applying for jobs/internships before the pandemic (with a different portfolio showing more undergraduate work) I had more like a 30 percent response rate. I guess I’m trying to figure out ways to stay motivated and keep up my efforts to apply to places, and I know Archinect is far from the ideal place to commiserate, but here I am wondering who else is in the same boat.
Non Sequitur
Sep 7, 21 6:21 pm
can’t say much in terms of application vs hiring on my end but I do know that every office in my region is super swamped with work and no one has the time to take on junior staff who may need significant coaching/training. If you have skills that can directly benefit projects other than a folio of glossy images… then I’d start there.
Outsideofspace
Sep 7, 21 8:21 pm
That's a useful perspective to hear. I was thinking about updating my work samples to further emphasize the drafting I've done (both professionally and in terms of providing a larger image of some detailed plans I made during one of my more advanced/practical academic studios), and also to include more examples of my professional work, so it's useful to hear some advice pointing in that direction.
Non Sequitur
Sep 7, 21 11:21 pm
That's certainly a good way to show diversity but you also want to show off creative problem solving too. Employers want to know their junior staff can try and figure things out by themselves... be it technical details or design & programing.
Wood Guy
Sep 8, 21 5:48 am
I agree with Non's assessment, at least from my perspective--I am drowning in work but it's somewhat specialized (high performance, semi-affordable residential) and I don't have time to train someone or to "re-program" an experienced architect. I've tried many times and it ends up costing me more time and money than it saves/makes. I would imagine the same is true for others and larger firms.
One possible route would be to find a job with a builder. With the construction market booming and with different priorities than architects, they will likely be more flexible on hiring, to the point that having a warm body may suffice. Job-site experience is invaluable for understanding design, and shows a willingness to think outside the box rather than waiting for the job you really want. Entry-level designers and architects always want to show how creative they are, but that's far from a priority on the hiring end, at least in my experience.
joseffischer
Sep 8, 21 8:54 am
headhunters are crazy right now, all looking for someone with at least 10 years of experience and the ability to run a job through the office start to finish... Not sure if that helps your case... I don't even apply for jobs. I'm turning away the hunters.
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 8:21 am
I don't have notifications on for linked-in but everytime I log in I see one or 2 head-hunter DMs.
Josh Mings
Sep 8, 21 8:59 am
This has been my experience the last 3 years when I've looked. 3 years ago when I quit a job after 2 months because it wasn't a good fit, I applied 4 places, 4 interviews, 4 job offers and picked the best one. Looked back in February but was extremely targeted - 1 place, a couple interviews with them, and now I'm here. Keep in mind though I leveraged my network for these searches and I have quite a bit of experience running jobs. It will be harder with less experience because Wood Guy and joseffischer are right, we're all busy right now. Make sure you're pointing out why a firm should invest in you to help make you stand out from others in your position.
Everyday Architect
Sep 8, 21 9:55 am
First round of searching out of school: 2 applications, 2 interviews, 2 offers.
Second round after moving to a new city about a year later: 8-10 applications, 3 interviews offered, 2 interviews, 1 offer, and 1 that wanted to offer but timing wasn’t going to work.
Since then it’s been 1 interview, 1 offer situations, and a whole bunch of turning away head hunters.
Most of my interviews and offers have been from working my network. All cover letters and work samples were tailored specifically to the office I was applying to.
One more thing, sometimes it can take a while. Some of those interviews were months after I initially applied. In the second round I turned down one of the interview offers because I had already taken a job and been working there for 2 months or so. Be patient.
Chad Miller
Sep 8, 21 6:15 pm
Only my first job came from a referral. The rest where applying to firms that I liked and were hiring. I suck at networking so I have to rely on my resume and portfolio. :(
Everyday Architect
Sep 9, 21 3:41 pm
Not sure what you consider networking Chad, but I don't think it needs to be anything special like rubbing shoulders at AIA events or anything. It can be, but it doesn't *need* to. For me networking (for getting new jobs anyway) mostly means being a likable person/coworker and then keeping in touch with former classmates and coworkers. People move around a lot in the industry and even knowing someone who used to work at an office you want to apply to can come in handy. That's how I got my current job. A former coworker used to work at the firm and reached out to one of the managing partners to introduce me. I've done the same for people before and it matters a lot in terms of getting an interview. I've even sat in on interviews for candidates we'd probably never hire just as a courtesy because they came recommended by an employee.
Chad Miller
Sep 8, 21 10:39 am
Right out of school
10-12 applications - three interviews, three offers
2008 Recession
20-25 applications - six interviews, six offers
RJ87
Sep 8, 21 2:28 pm
I'd echo what Non said. We're busy but don't have the time or energy to train new grads so there's an experience qualifier.
Chad Miller
Sep 8, 21 6:14 pm
I wouldn't let this be a deterrent for applying to firms though. I'm sure that RJ87 isn't saying it should be . . . .
RJ87
Sep 9, 21 8:07 am
Of course not, my comment was more in agreement with what other folks were suggesting: less academic image work & showcasing more practical experience if they have it. Our office historically doesn't hire new grads for positions that involve CD's, so we're an outlier as well. Our principal takes an "have someone else pay you to learn how construction works, then we'll hire you later" approach that's worked for him since the 80's.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 21 3:11 pm
As long as they're taught correctly . . . .
square.
Sep 9, 21 5:10 pm
there are countless jobs where new hires are trained with no experience, and sometimes even paid to do so! i have a friend who recently joined tech with no experience and was paid for 2 weeks of training. this profession has a strange expectation that students come out of school being robots ready to be in full-steam production mode on day one. maybe there’s some blame on schools, but i am highly skeptical of any office that is “too busy” to train new hires. just an excuse for a bad environment imo.
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 5:57 pm
^square, I do a great deal of the training in my office and I have all the patience in the world… however, I don’t have the time in my day (or time on my client’s tab) to spend on training. It’s not a bad work environment thing, it’s a lack of fresh grads with workable skills. We don’t need robots but we need people with enough basic knowledge in real world office work and independence.
square.
Sep 9, 21 6:20 pm
just a different perspective, but i'm less inclined to blame recent grads (i think students only have so much time and on the whole come out of very rigorous programs with drawings and modeling skills that take a lot of time to develop, especially compared to other majors) and instead look towards the business. i believe that you don't have time, and it probably shouldn't be part of your job, but maybe that says something about the firm, or client, that there aren't resources or a structure to train new people?
there's a long list of companies that dedicate time, money, and resources to train new employees... the trend to not do so has just gotten worse since the 70s/80s, part of a larger one to shift monetary obligations from companies to individuals (e.g. pensions to 401ks, salaried to independent contractor status, etc).
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 7:15 pm
Maybe in a 100-person office, but we’re sub 25 with no real divisions so everyone gets to do a bit of everything when they start.
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 8:20 am
Ya'll so busy you can't even make your own original comments... so you just pile-up on mine. That's fine, I'll cary the team for as long as there is coffee in my mug.
Josh Mings
Sep 9, 21 3:15 pm
You carry us all the way from Regina to Saskatoon!
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 21 3:24 pm
Just remember - he's carrying us in kg . . .
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 3:54 pm
... and in kph. But, to Josh's point, that's not that far actually... still within the same province and literally on the same road.. which has a 110kph speed limit.
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 21 4:43 pm
. . . converting to freedom units . . . . divide by two world wars, add in the second amendment . . . 68.35 mph.
Josh Mings
Sep 9, 21 4:44 pm
So close to being nice.
Non Sequitur
Sep 9, 21 4:51 pm
Hard to get up to that speed on a dog sleigh tho...
Chad Miller
Sep 9, 21 6:05 pm
That's OK. Those have way better fuel efficiency and range compared to a bald eagle. :)
Levi Wall
Sep 10, 21 1:27 pm
I haven't applied for a new job in awhile, but fresh out of school (2012), I applied to probably 80 places, got probably a 50% response rate, maybe 10 interviews (several of which I traveled out of state to go to), and it took me about 6 months to convert that into my first job offer. I feel your pain!
I echo the comments about leveraging your network as much as possible, as I think personal recommendations within a firm really help differentiate candidates. I got my one "internship" during school, two subsequent jobs since the first one I took out of school, and another job offer (which I didn't end up taking), primarily because I've known people within each of those firms.
Beyond that, if you haven't already, I would "modularize" your portfolio in a way that allows you to quickly switch in and out different projects, or different versions of projects, to specifically resonate with the firm you're applying to. Cover letters and resumes can be kind of boring, so anything you can do to make yours stick out is a plus.
When I reflect back on my time applying for several jobs each week, I wonder if I should have applied to less jobs, and focused more on the ones I had a better shot at getting. I'm not sure if it would have played out any better for me, but I would recommend evaluating how you're balancing quantity vs. quality of applications.
Finally, if you want any feedback on your portoflio or resume, I'm happy to help you with that! I'm not usually the one reviewing applications in our office, but I've done several portfolio reviews at the local architecture schools have plenty of experience putting them together myself. Find me on LinkedIn!
Everyday Architect
Sep 10, 21 2:20 pm
How does 10 interviews from 80 applications equal a 50% response rate? Did you turn down 30 interviews requests? Or are you saying 40 firms of the 80 replied back to say "thank you for applying" ... even if they didn't want to interview?
Levi Wall
Sep 10, 21 4:11 pm
Yes, I think I had about 50% (maybe more) of firms acknowledge that I had sent them something, or respond to my application, as opposed to not. It sounds like I'm using "response rate" incorrectly?
Everyday Architect
Sep 10, 21 4:24 pm
I guess "response rate" was never defined so technically if you got a response at all it would be counted, but the context of the OP was that an interview was considered a response. I wouldn't consider a generic acknowledgement of receiving the application a positive response. Most firms I'm familiar with have a pretty standard response for rejecting an application. It usually sounds like "Thank you for your interest in our firm. We don't have any open positions at this time, but we will keep your information on file for any future openings." That's just a polite way of saying "we don't want to waste our time interviewing you, but if we get desperate enough we might sort through this pile of applications." And that's probable only if they don't "file" the application in the trash can. The promise to keep you on file is just so that you don't reapply every 60-90 days.
I'd say you had about a 12% response rate (10 interviews / 80 applications = 12.5%)
Outsideofspace
Sep 12, 21 4:09 am
Thanks for your thoughts. Since I wrote this I have been sending out more targeted applications, and I ended up getting a job as a result. I'm going to post an update in the main thread as well.
Outsideofspace
Sep 12, 21 4:11 am
Thought I would post an update that I ended up getting a job just in the time since I wrote my initial post. It's weird how architecture can take you 180 degrees from moments of stress where it feels like making progress is impossible, into times when something happens. The firm I got into seemed from the start like a particularly good match on both sides in terms of "fit."
thepoeticsofspace
Sep 12, 21 8:14 am
Graduating in 2020 as the first cohort who graduated under the pandemic, I applied over 200 applications from August to October and there was nothing, not even one single interview. It was tough and involved lots of (further) self-doubts. And when I reapplied in 2021 March, I would say, for every 10 applications, there were about 3-5 interviews.
It wasn't easy for sure but I am fortunate to be where I am now, and I would say I am KINDA immuned to rejections and crickets now. aha It was worth the wait afterall.
Archi880
Sep 12, 21 10:39 am
Applied to 11 places, got 5 interviews and no offer. Although I wasn't really happy with what I saw at those offices.
I've applied for 22 jobs in the last two months, and gotten two interviews. (ie. a 9% response rate in terms of getting some kind of positive outcome.) I'm at a junior experience level in what I suspect is a difficult job market, with a pandemic-shaped hole in my resume.
I've applied to firms across a spectrum of what I would consider to be (in the sense of college admissions terms) "matches" and "reaches" and "safeties," and the two which responded were "matches" in addition to a personalized rejection I got from a "reach" firm. I guess that means I'm (hopefully) a competitive applicant, and I just need to persist in applying to more places. I've been trying to occasionally change up my tactics in terms of how I approach my cover letters & portfolios, but so far I guess I don't have enough data to notice any dramatic correlations with certain approaches.
When I was applying for jobs/internships before the pandemic (with a different portfolio showing more undergraduate work) I had more like a 30 percent response rate. I guess I’m trying to figure out ways to stay motivated and keep up my efforts to apply to places, and I know Archinect is far from the ideal place to commiserate, but here I am wondering who else is in the same boat.
can’t say much in terms of application vs hiring on my end but I do know that every office in my region is super swamped with work and no one has the time to take on junior staff who may need significant coaching/training. If you have skills that can directly benefit projects other than a folio of glossy images… then I’d start there.
That's a useful perspective to hear. I was thinking about updating my work samples to further emphasize the drafting I've done (both professionally and in terms of providing a larger image of some detailed plans I made during one of my more advanced/practical academic studios), and also to include more examples of my professional work, so it's useful to hear some advice pointing in that direction.
That's certainly a good way to show diversity but you also want to show off creative problem solving too. Employers want to know their junior staff can try and figure things out by themselves... be it technical details or design & programing.
I agree with Non's assessment, at least from my perspective--I am drowning in work but it's somewhat specialized (high performance, semi-affordable residential) and I don't have time to train someone or to "re-program" an experienced architect. I've tried many times and it ends up costing me more time and money than it saves/makes. I would imagine the same is true for others and larger firms.
One possible route would be to find a job with a builder. With the construction market booming and with different priorities than architects, they will likely be more flexible on hiring, to the point that having a warm body may suffice. Job-site experience is invaluable for understanding design, and shows a willingness to think outside the box rather than waiting for the job you really want. Entry-level designers and architects always want to show how creative they are, but that's far from a priority on the hiring end, at least in my experience.
headhunters are crazy right now, all looking for someone with at least 10 years of experience and the ability to run a job through the office start to finish... Not sure if that helps your case... I don't even apply for jobs. I'm turning away the hunters.
I don't have notifications on for linked-in but everytime I log in I see one or 2 head-hunter DMs.
This has been my experience the last 3 years when I've looked. 3 years ago when I quit a job after 2 months because it wasn't a good fit, I applied 4 places, 4 interviews, 4 job offers and picked the best one. Looked back in February but was extremely targeted - 1 place, a couple interviews with them, and now I'm here. Keep in mind though I leveraged my network for these searches and I have quite a bit of experience running jobs. It will be harder with less experience because Wood Guy and joseffischer are right, we're all busy right now. Make sure you're pointing out why a firm should invest in you to help make you stand out from others in your position.
First round of searching out of school: 2 applications, 2 interviews, 2 offers.
Second round after moving to a new city about a year later: 8-10 applications, 3 interviews offered, 2 interviews, 1 offer, and 1 that wanted to offer but timing wasn’t going to work.
Since then it’s been 1 interview, 1 offer situations, and a whole bunch of turning away head hunters.
Most of my interviews and offers have been from working my network. All cover letters and work samples were tailored specifically to the office I was applying to.
One more thing, sometimes it can take a while. Some of those interviews were months after I initially applied. In the second round I turned down one of the interview offers because I had already taken a job and been working there for 2 months or so. Be patient.
Only my first job came from a referral. The rest where applying to firms that I liked and were hiring. I suck at networking so I have to rely on my resume and portfolio. :(
Not sure what you consider networking Chad, but I don't think it needs to be anything special like rubbing shoulders at AIA events or anything. It can be, but it doesn't *need* to. For me networking (for getting new jobs anyway) mostly means being a likable person/coworker and then keeping in touch with former classmates and coworkers. People move around a lot in the industry and even knowing someone who used to work at an office you want to apply to can come in handy. That's how I got my current job. A former coworker used to work at the firm and reached out to one of the managing partners to introduce me. I've done the same for people before and it matters a lot in terms of getting an interview. I've even sat in on interviews for candidates we'd probably never hire just as a courtesy because they came recommended by an employee.
Right out of school
10-12 applications - three interviews, three offers
2008 Recession
20-25 applications - six interviews, six offers
I'd echo what Non said. We're busy but don't have the time or energy to train new grads so there's an experience qualifier.
I wouldn't let this be a deterrent for applying to firms though. I'm sure that RJ87 isn't saying it should be . . . .
Of course not, my comment was more in agreement with what other folks were suggesting: less academic image work & showcasing more practical experience if they have it. Our office historically doesn't hire new grads for positions that involve CD's, so we're an outlier as well. Our principal takes an "have someone else pay you to learn how construction works, then we'll hire you later" approach that's worked for him since the 80's.
As long as they're taught correctly . . . .
there are countless jobs where new hires are trained with no experience, and sometimes even paid to do so! i have a friend who recently joined tech with no experience and was paid for 2 weeks of training. this profession has a strange expectation that students come out of school being robots ready to be in full-steam production mode on day one. maybe there’s some blame on schools, but i am highly skeptical of any office that is “too busy” to train new hires. just an excuse for a bad environment imo.
^square, I do a great deal of the training in my office and I have all the patience in the world… however, I don’t have the time in my day (or time on my client’s tab) to spend on training. It’s not a bad work environment thing, it’s a lack of fresh grads with workable skills. We don’t need robots but we need people with enough basic knowledge in real world office work and independence.
just a different perspective, but i'm less inclined to blame recent grads (i think students only have so much time and on the whole come out of very rigorous programs with drawings and modeling skills that take a lot of time to develop, especially compared to other majors) and instead look towards the business. i believe that you don't have time, and it probably shouldn't be part of your job, but maybe that says something about the firm, or client, that there aren't resources or a structure to train new people?
there's a long list of companies that dedicate time, money, and resources to train new employees... the trend to not do so has just gotten worse since the 70s/80s, part of a larger one to shift monetary obligations from companies to individuals (e.g. pensions to 401ks, salaried to independent contractor status, etc).
Maybe in a 100-person office, but we’re sub 25 with no real divisions so everyone gets to do a bit of everything when they start.
Ya'll so busy you can't even make your own original comments... so you just pile-up on mine. That's fine, I'll cary the team for as long as there is coffee in my mug.
You carry us all the way from Regina to Saskatoon!
Just remember - he's carrying us in kg . . .
... and in kph. But, to Josh's point, that's not that far actually... still within the same province and literally on the same road.. which has a 110kph speed limit.
. . . converting to freedom units . . . . divide by two world wars, add in the second amendment . . . 68.35 mph.
So close to being nice.
Hard to get up to that speed on a dog sleigh tho...
That's OK. Those have way better fuel efficiency and range compared to a bald eagle. :)
I haven't applied for a new job in awhile, but fresh out of school (2012), I applied to probably 80 places, got probably a 50% response rate, maybe 10 interviews (several of which I traveled out of state to go to), and it took me about 6 months to convert that into my first job offer. I feel your pain!
I echo the comments about leveraging your network as much as possible, as I think personal recommendations within a firm really help differentiate candidates. I got my one "internship" during school, two subsequent jobs since the first one I took out of school, and another job offer (which I didn't end up taking), primarily because I've known people within each of those firms.
Beyond that, if you haven't already, I would "modularize" your portfolio in a way that allows you to quickly switch in and out different projects, or different versions of projects, to specifically resonate with the firm you're applying to. Cover letters and resumes can be kind of boring, so anything you can do to make yours stick out is a plus.
When I reflect back on my time applying for several jobs each week, I wonder if I should have applied to less jobs, and focused more on the ones I had a better shot at getting. I'm not sure if it would have played out any better for me, but I would recommend evaluating how you're balancing quantity vs. quality of applications.
Finally, if you want any feedback on your portoflio or resume, I'm happy to help you with that! I'm not usually the one reviewing applications in our office, but I've done several portfolio reviews at the local architecture schools have plenty of experience putting them together myself. Find me on LinkedIn!
How does 10 interviews from 80 applications equal a 50% response rate? Did you turn down 30 interviews requests? Or are you saying 40 firms of the 80 replied back to say "thank you for applying" ... even if they didn't want to interview?
Yes, I think I had about 50% (maybe more) of firms acknowledge that I had sent them something, or respond to my application, as opposed to not. It sounds like I'm using "response rate" incorrectly?
I guess "response rate" was never defined so technically if you got a response at all it would be counted, but the context of the OP was that an interview was considered a response. I wouldn't consider a generic acknowledgement of receiving the application a positive response. Most firms I'm familiar with have a pretty standard response for rejecting an application. It usually sounds like "Thank you for your interest in our firm. We don't have any open positions at this time, but we will keep your information on file for any future openings." That's just a polite way of saying "we don't want to waste our time interviewing you, but if we get desperate enough we might sort through this pile of applications." And that's probable only if they don't "file" the application in the trash can. The promise to keep you on file is just so that you don't reapply every 60-90 days.
I'd say you had about a 12% response rate (10 interviews / 80 applications = 12.5%)
Thanks for your thoughts. Since I wrote this I have been sending out more targeted applications, and I ended up getting a job as a result. I'm going to post an update in the main thread as well.
Thought I would post an update that I ended up getting a job just in the time since I wrote my initial post. It's weird how architecture can take you 180 degrees from moments of stress where it feels like making progress is impossible, into times when something happens. The firm I got into seemed from the start like a particularly good match on both sides in terms of "fit."
Graduating in 2020 as the first cohort who graduated under the pandemic, I applied over 200 applications from August to October and there was nothing, not even one single interview. It was tough and involved lots of (further) self-doubts. And when I reapplied in 2021 March, I would say, for every 10 applications, there were about 3-5 interviews.
It wasn't easy for sure but I am fortunate to be where I am now, and I would say I am KINDA immuned to rejections and crickets now. aha
It was worth the wait afterall.
Applied to 11 places, got 5 interviews and no offer. Although I wasn't really happy with what I saw at those offices.