I'm a licensed architect practicing in my conservative home state. I graduated at the top of my class with a BARCH in 2013 and accepted a job offer from one of my professors when I graduated. He had recently stopped teaching at the school and decided to open his practice full time. At the time, I was engaged to an architect in another country, so always thought the job would be temporary. However, as things go, they fall apart.... and I found myself continuing to work at this firm (to the tune of a $24k salary) out of a sense of obligation and friendship with my boss. I had never worked at a firm before, so didn't have a strong sense of what it was supposed to be like. The principal preferred a laid-back studio and, to my detriment, didn't embrace mentorship or teaching. I learned most of what I know about construction documents, coordination and sheet organization from a set of drawings I found online. Despite his self-professed lack of leadership ability, he made up for it with a really generous sense of comradery and love of creativity; for instance, he has always been accepting and supportive of me being gay, which is no small thing where we live.
In 2016, after not having any projects for a couple months, I moved to Boston and practiced at a small firm there - as you could imagine, I learned more in that one year than I learned in the 3 years I had worked at my other job. After a year, one of my parents got really sick and I decided to move back and take care of them. I got my old job back! And with the experience I had acquired, I was able to contribute a lot more to the firm, especially in terms of project management and construction documents.
Since then, the firm has done pretty well. I still make about 15k less than my peers and have no benefits. We have had steady work during the pandemic and are finally starting to get clients we mesh well with (we're very liberal in a conservative state). The principal wants me to partner up with him. He's twenty years older. In a lot of ways, I know he is going to look to me to do the mundane, unfun part of the business (some of which I do anyway): drafting proposals, contracts, fee proposals, managing difficult clients, invoicing and drafting the bulk of construction documents. I don't think the firm has ever been profitable, though I've yet to receive the relevant tax documents.
tldr: I love working with my boss but have overall professional and financial reservations about the commitment. How do you know the right thing to do?
My general questions are: would partnering up be a good opportunity for me to make the firm better? Is this a disaster waiting to happen? Should I work for another firm to get more experience first? I'm considering attending an MARCH II program, in part to help the caliber of work improve - is that ridiculous?
Thanks for any advice --
randomised
Dec 26, 20 4:29 pm
24k/2080hrs=$11,54/hr...
89pol
Dec 27, 20 4:45 pm
Five years of everyone saying "the pay is low and the hours long" really set the expectations
natematt
Dec 28, 20 2:19 am
You're not still getting paid that are you?
89pol
Dec 28, 20 9:16 am
No, I recently got a salary bump (after getting licensed)
to 47k.
randomised
Dec 28, 20 7:15 pm
that's a relief!
Wood Guy
Dec 27, 20 2:51 pm
Be leery of partnerships. They can be amazing, but a partnership is an intense relationship, so vet it at least as carefully as you would a marriage. I started one business with a partner and it quickly failed. I've been very close to partnering with two other companies, and was asked to be a partner at another company. Each time there was a lot of time spent assessing how it would benefit everyone and ultimately each time I found that I would be better off just starting or running my own business. How would this partnership benefit you?
89pol
Dec 27, 20 5:02 pm
Thanks Wood Guy, I really appreciate hearing your perspective. Besides tax returns, are there other documents I could request to help vet the proposition? I'm not sure how it would benefit me - maybe a pay raise and more autonomy (responsibility)?
natematt
Dec 28, 20 2:21 am
Maybe a pay raise? That should be a given, especially if you are given more responsibility.
Wood Guy
Dec 28, 20 8:24 am
I would want to have a deep understanding of the company's finances. Tax returns are only part of that story. You should review profit and loss statements and balance sheets going back several years, know what insurances are in place and where the company might be exposed currently and on previous projects, review the annual budget... If they aren't willing to share those things, they don't want a partner, they want you to continue doing the heavy lifting while remaining under-paid. Or they don't have financial acuity and just like you should understand how your spouse handles money before you marry, you should understand the financial implications of who you're "getting into bed" with.
What do YOU gain from this partnership? Why not start your own firm? I'm not encouraging you to start your own firm, but asking what this partnership brings that you couldn't do on your own. Once you have answers for that, try to estimate what the answers are worth--could you hire or buy (with advertising, for example) the same things you'd be getting from the partnership?
89pol
Jan 3, 21 6:33 pm
I'll be sure to request the documents you mentioned - thank you. I think my boss would consider it a pretty big betrayal if I left - and has said as much. I haven't considered opening my own firm, though that is a helpful metric for understanding the partnership outside of my perceived obligation to the firm.
midlander
Dec 28, 20 2:10 am
"sorry about the low salary all these years, business is what it is and you don't have much experience. hey btw want to be my partner and split the profits?"
hmm... i can tell you partnerships aren't so openly offered where money is actually at stake. i'd pass, this just sounds like an invitation to get stuck in something much less desirable than it seems at the moment.
if you really like him, see if you can work freelance while getting a better paid job in a more established office. get licensed, get some confidence in your judgment on business, and see how things look in a few years.
natematt
Dec 28, 20 2:20 am
He said above that he is licensed.
midlander
Dec 28, 20 8:31 am
ah right. doesn't change my overall view of the situation. don't go into a partnership hoping you will fix the firm...
89pol
Jan 3, 21 6:36 pm
I have considered that trajectory - freelance + more established office work. The fi
rm is currently just him and me, so I project manage half the work in the office. It's hard to imagine freelancing that level of commitment while working another, probably more demanding job.
midlander
Jan 4, 21 7:09 am
i just feel like there isn't really much potential in partnership here, and you're trying to find an excuse to say no to a flattering offer that doesn't offer much benefit. managing partner of a business that doesn't make money and which clearly is run at the direction of the founder is going to be a grind once the novelty wears off.
midlander
Jan 4, 21 7:12 am
you may have different goals than i would of course. before reviewing any kind of contracts or firm accounts you do need to have a serious discussion on what his vision is for the firm, his role, your role, and how things will develop in the future. it sounds as if you are assuming a continuation of the role you've taken on - but a partner can and should be more engaged in building the firm.
atelier nobody
Dec 28, 20 4:42 am
There are a few questions I would think about. I'd only consider the first one an automatic deal-breaker; the rest are questions that might or might not raise red flags:
Is he asking you for money up front to buy into the firm?
During the ownership transition, will you continue to receive a set salary, or be totally dependent on firm profits for your income, or a combination of both?
Will your income after whatever is withheld toward your buy-in be at least the same as you are making now?
You say he's 20 years older than you - how close is he to retirement? Is he looking to cash out in 5 years, 10, 15, 30?
Are there other employees you will need to either keep working or lay off when you become responsible for the firm's profit and loss?
89pol
Jan 3, 21 6:39 pm
Those are really helpful questions, thank you.
1. I would not contribute any money up front to the firm.
2. I'm not sure, that hasn't been specified, though I assume I would continue to receive the same salary.
3. Yes, I think so.
4. Hmm...He definitely enjoys design so I would guess he is probably 20 years from retirement (he's 50 now).
5. I am the only other employee, so no.
bowling_ball
Dec 28, 20 11:08 am
I just signed my partnership papers this month. Despite that, it's all a bit of a fog because the actual process of negotiating not only the agreements, but incorporating my own holding company first, then getting funds in place, and then renegotiating the agreements took about 10 months, at least 4 lawyers, and tens of thousands of dollars in legal and business fees.
Any more details you can share?
89pol
Jan 3, 21 6:47 pm
Oh, wow. That sounds really complex! Could you explain the process of negotiating agreements any further? That is simply the terms, expectations and responsibilities of the partnership?
In the simplest terms, I think generally the idea is that we would split the company 50/50, with similar salaries and any profits going back to the firm.
bowling_ball
Jan 3, 21 10:19 pm
That's the equivalent of asking to describe the process of designing a building from scratch with other architects. Impossible to describe in a few sentences but trust me, I signed my name maybe 40 times, on documents totaling in the hundreds of pages. And we all get along and work well together so at least that part was easy.
mmanyc
Dec 30, 20 3:10 pm
You say you learned a lot in a year in Boston, but it's probably not enough to really contribute to a partnership. You'll never turn this practice into the one you visited in Boston, because the expectations will continue to be set by your boss/partner. If you want to work at that level again, you'll need to go to a stronger firm, whether that's in your home state, back in Boston, or somewhere else.
If you partner up with this guy you'll just be lowering your expectations permanently.
It's time for you to earn what you deserve and learn from architects that are stronger than your boss.
whistler
Dec 30, 20 3:37 pm
As an owner of a small office. I have had to ponder this issue but from the ownership side as I approach an age where I want to "retire". Options for me are to; take on partners, sell the office to them, or some kind of transitional arrangement where they purchase the office and I consult back to the firm in it's new brand to ensure steady work stream for them.
After much thought there isn't an easy answer and all circumstances are unique but for me the office mostly represents a bunch of hardware that is several years old, furniture, and books etc a very good digital archive of data and past projects and what I personally bring to the office as the "rainmaker". The real value is my own personal good will and ability to draw in clients and the digital archive. It is likely that in my case I will continue to work on small projects in a semi retirement mode and sell the staff the digital archive and office hardware / furniture. That way they have the groundwork for being efficient and can continue to do business but as their own brand.....That also assumes they want to buy it and not start at ground zero. For the kind of work we have been doing the last five years the digital archive really is a goldmine of data that would give you the opportunity to hit the ground running and be very efficient and cost effective on larger projects right from the get go.
Not sure that answers your question but it does give you a sense of the other side and be clear about why you are partnering up? and for what benefit?
Jay1122
Jan 4, 21 2:32 pm
Just a quick glance. Here is my understanding, You started out 24K (Seriously WDF) full time annual salary with that professor's firm? And now its 47K after you are licensed? With about 7 years of experience since you graduated 2013? And you want to consider partnership with that guy's sole practice? 47K is the starting salary of recent graduates in my region. This is U.S. we are talking about right? I will run like wind, let alone talking about partnership. Who pays their prospective partner 47K. This is a new low to me.
thisisnotmyname
Jan 4, 21 3:19 pm
I suspect the firm owner is very low on cash and always has been. A two person shop run by a design teacher in a 3rd tier "conservative" USA market is probably not a very robust business. The owner is also probably pegging salaries to pay rates 20+ years ago when they last worked for someone else prior to starting the firm. To me the partnership offer looks like way to keep the OP engaged. The owner has limited cash, making a big salary bump impossible, but they can give out
a percentage of the firm.
bowling_ball
Jan 4, 21 5:11 pm
This is exactly right. The owner isn't looking for a partner, they're looking to postpone some costs, that's all.
thisisnotmyname
Jan 4, 21 5:30 pm
The big question for me is how much does elevating the OP to an ownership position change the prospects of the business. Can they pull off a growth plan that makes the place work for both of them financially? How much work is really out there in their local market and how will they go about getting it?
square.
Jan 4, 21 3:52 pm
licensed + 7 years experience = 47k with no benefits? hell no. you'll be much happier with a job that treats you like a normal, human professional. run.
Hi all -
I'm a licensed architect practicing in my conservative home state. I graduated at the top of my class with a BARCH in 2013 and accepted a job offer from one of my professors when I graduated. He had recently stopped teaching at the school and decided to open his practice full time. At the time, I was engaged to an architect in another country, so always thought the job would be temporary. However, as things go, they fall apart.... and I found myself continuing to work at this firm (to the tune of a $24k salary) out of a sense of obligation and friendship with my boss. I had never worked at a firm before, so didn't have a strong sense of what it was supposed to be like. The principal preferred a laid-back studio and, to my detriment, didn't embrace mentorship or teaching. I learned most of what I know about construction documents, coordination and sheet organization from a set of drawings I found online. Despite his self-professed lack of leadership ability, he made up for it with a really generous sense of comradery and love of creativity; for instance, he has always been accepting and supportive of me being gay, which is no small thing where we live.
In 2016, after not having any projects for a couple months, I moved to Boston and practiced at a small firm there - as you could imagine, I learned more in that one year than I learned in the 3 years I had worked at my other job. After a year, one of my parents got really sick and I decided to move back and take care of them. I got my old job back! And with the experience I had acquired, I was able to contribute a lot more to the firm, especially in terms of project management and construction documents.
Since then, the firm has done pretty well. I still make about 15k less than my peers and have no benefits. We have had steady work during the pandemic and are finally starting to get clients we mesh well with (we're very liberal in a conservative state). The principal wants me to partner up with him. He's twenty years older. In a lot of ways, I know he is going to look to me to do the mundane, unfun part of the business (some of which I do anyway): drafting proposals, contracts, fee proposals, managing difficult clients, invoicing and drafting the bulk of construction documents. I don't think the firm has ever been profitable, though I've yet to receive the relevant tax documents.
tldr: I love working with my boss but have overall professional and financial reservations about the commitment. How do you know the right thing to do?
My general questions are: would partnering up be a good opportunity for me to make the firm better? Is this a disaster waiting to happen? Should I work for another firm to get more experience first? I'm considering attending an MARCH II program, in part to help the caliber of work improve - is that ridiculous?
Thanks for any advice --
24k/2080hrs=$11,54/hr...
Five years of everyone saying "the pay is low and the hours long" really set the expectations
You're not still getting paid that are you?
No, I recently got a salary bump (after getting licensed) to 47k.
that's a relief!
Be leery of partnerships. They can be amazing, but a partnership is an intense relationship, so vet it at least as carefully as you would a marriage. I started one business with a partner and it quickly failed. I've been very close to partnering with two other companies, and was asked to be a partner at another company. Each time there was a lot of time spent assessing how it would benefit everyone and ultimately each time I found that I would be better off just starting or running my own business. How would this partnership benefit you?
Thanks Wood Guy, I really appreciate hearing your perspective. Besides tax returns, are there other documents I could request to help vet the proposition? I'm not sure how it would benefit me - maybe a pay raise and more autonomy (responsibility)?
Maybe a pay raise? That should be a given, especially if you are given more responsibility.
I would want to have a deep understanding of the company's finances. Tax returns are only part of that story. You should review profit and loss statements and balance sheets going back several years, know what insurances are in place and where the company might be exposed currently and on previous projects, review the annual budget... If they aren't willing to share those things, they don't want a partner, they want you to continue doing the heavy lifting while remaining under-paid. Or they don't have financial acuity and just like you should understand how your spouse handles money before you marry, you should understand the financial implications of who you're "getting into bed" with.
What do YOU gain from this partnership? Why not start your own firm? I'm not encouraging you to start your own firm, but asking what this partnership brings that you couldn't do on your own. Once you have answers for that, try to estimate what the answers are worth--could you hire or buy (with advertising, for example) the same things you'd be getting from the partnership?
I'll be sure to request the documents you mentioned - thank you. I think my boss would consider it a pretty big betrayal if I left - and has said as much. I haven't considered opening my own firm, though that is a helpful metric for understanding the partnership outside of my perceived obligation to the firm.
"sorry about the low salary all these years, business is what it is and you don't have much experience. hey btw want to be my partner and split the profits?"
hmm... i can tell you partnerships aren't so openly offered where money is actually at stake. i'd pass, this just sounds like an invitation to get stuck in something much less desirable than it seems at the moment.
if you really like him, see if you can work freelance while getting a better paid job in a more established office. get licensed, get some confidence in your judgment on business, and see how things look in a few years.
He said above that he is licensed.
ah right. doesn't change my overall view of the situation. don't go into a partnership hoping you will fix the firm...
I have considered that trajectory - freelance + more established office work. The fi rm is currently just him and me, so I project manage half the work in the office. It's hard to imagine freelancing that level of commitment while working another, probably more demanding job.
i just feel like there isn't really much potential in partnership here, and you're trying to find an excuse to say no to a flattering offer that doesn't offer much benefit. managing partner of a business that doesn't make money and which clearly is run at the direction of the founder is going to be a grind once the novelty wears off.
you may have different goals than i would of course. before reviewing any kind of contracts or firm accounts you do need to have a serious discussion on what his vision is for the firm, his role, your role, and how things will develop in the future. it sounds as if you are assuming a continuation of the role you've taken on - but a partner can and should be more engaged in building the firm.
There are a few questions I would think about. I'd only consider the first one an automatic deal-breaker; the rest are questions that might or might not raise red flags:
Those are really helpful questions, thank you.
1. I would not contribute any money up front to the firm.
2. I'm not sure, that hasn't been specified, though I assume I would continue to receive the same salary.
3. Yes, I think so.
4. Hmm...He definitely enjoys design so I would guess he is probably 20 years from retirement (he's 50 now).
5. I am the only other employee, so no.
I just signed my partnership papers this month. Despite that, it's all a bit of a fog because the actual process of negotiating not only the agreements, but incorporating my own holding company first, then getting funds in place, and then renegotiating the agreements took about 10 months, at least 4 lawyers, and tens of thousands of dollars in legal and business fees.
Any more details you can share?
Oh, wow. That sounds really complex! Could you explain the process of negotiating agreements any further? That is simply the terms, expectations and responsibilities of the partnership?
In the simplest terms, I think generally the idea is that we would split the company 50/50, with similar salaries and any profits going back to the firm.
That's the equivalent of asking to describe the process of designing a building from scratch with other architects. Impossible to describe in a few sentences but trust me, I signed my name maybe 40 times, on documents totaling in the hundreds of pages. And we all get along and work well together so at least that part was easy.
You say you learned a lot in a year in Boston, but it's probably not enough to really contribute to a partnership. You'll never turn this practice into the one you visited in Boston, because the expectations will continue to be set by your boss/partner. If you want to work at that level again, you'll need to go to a stronger firm, whether that's in your home state, back in Boston, or somewhere else.
If you partner up with this guy you'll just be lowering your expectations permanently.
It's time for you to earn what you deserve and learn from architects that are stronger than your boss.
As an owner of a small office. I have had to ponder this issue but from the ownership side as I approach an age where I want to "retire". Options for me are to; take on partners, sell the office to them, or some kind of transitional arrangement where they purchase the office and I consult back to the firm in it's new brand to ensure steady work stream for them.
After much thought there isn't an easy answer and all circumstances are unique but for me the office mostly represents a bunch of hardware that is several years old, furniture, and books etc a very good digital archive of data and past projects and what I personally bring to the office as the "rainmaker". The real value is my own personal good will and ability to draw in clients and the digital archive. It is likely that in my case I will continue to work on small projects in a semi retirement mode and sell the staff the digital archive and office hardware / furniture. That way they have the groundwork for being efficient and can continue to do business but as their own brand.....That also assumes they want to buy it and not start at ground zero. For the kind of work we have been doing the last five years the digital archive really is a goldmine of data that would give you the opportunity to hit the ground running and be very efficient and cost effective on larger projects right from the get go.
Not sure that answers your question but it does give you a sense of the other side and be clear about why you are partnering up? and for what benefit?
Just a quick glance. Here is my understanding, You started out 24K (Seriously WDF) full time annual salary with that professor's firm? And now its 47K after you are licensed? With about 7 years of experience since you graduated 2013? And you want to consider partnership with that guy's sole practice? 47K is the starting salary of recent graduates in my region. This is U.S. we are talking about right? I will run like wind, let alone talking about partnership. Who pays their prospective partner 47K. This is a new low to me.
I suspect the firm owner is very low on cash and always has been. A two person shop run by a design teacher in a 3rd tier "conservative" USA market is probably not a very robust business. The owner is also probably pegging salaries to pay rates 20+ years ago when they last worked for someone else prior to starting the firm. To me the partnership offer looks like way to keep the OP engaged. The owner has limited cash, making a big salary bump impossible, but they can give out a percentage of the firm.
This is exactly right. The owner isn't looking for a partner, they're looking to postpone some costs, that's all.
The big question for me is how much does elevating the OP to an ownership position change the prospects of the business. Can they pull off a growth plan that makes the place work for both of them financially? How much work is really out there in their local market and how will they go about getting it?
licensed + 7 years experience = 47k with no benefits? hell no. you'll be much happier with a job that treats you like a normal, human professional. run.