What would you do if your company wants you to come back into office and they ask you to sign a liability waiver so the office is not responsible for any COV-ID related issues.
Non Sequitur
Jun 21, 20 11:38 pm
Is that waiver even legally binding?
curtkram
Jun 22, 20 12:25 am
do you have an option to continue working from home, or are they saying something to the effect that they recognize they're putting your safety at risk and if you don't agree to that you lose your job?
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 12:26 pm
Their verbiage is
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 12:30 pm
Their verbiage is “architecture is naturally collaborative and it’s easier in person....some teams work together better when everyone is in the same place...etc.” They are not explicitly forcing you to come into the office as that will break SF ordinances but my boss and bosses are for sure are going in.
randomised
Jun 22, 20 3:41 am
Does that waiver also mean you're in the clear if you're the one bringing in the 'rona?
James Bragg
Jun 22, 20 5:30 am
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You must be working in the US.
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 12:30 pm
Correct. San Francisco.
threeohdoor
Jun 22, 20 9:15 am
It hasn't been tested in court yet as we're still in the throes of the pandemic (USA! USA!). Most often, liability waivers are non-binding as it can be argued that the employer has superior negotiating power and undue influence on the signature (duh). At the very least, the Trump executive order mandates that employers follow federal government guidelines in good faith. What those federal guidelines are? I have no f-ing clue. I'd imagine it's something along the lines of social distancing, masks in the workplace, hand sanitizer, etc. However, your mileage may vary depending on your state (USA! USA!) as regulations in NY are and will be much different than in the less-mafia but more-yahoo states like Texas and Arizona.
Does the employer have an agreement with the commercial landlord? Elevators, entrances, shared bathrooms, etc can all be vectors.
Honestly, it smells and having just dealt with a load of smelly business tactics in the past few months, I'd be quite hesitant to sign.
thisisnotmyname
Jun 22, 20 10:45 am
Yes, it is the employer's responsibility to figure out what the government's guidelines are for a particular office location and make that be the starting point for how they reopen and operate. Many smart firms will opt to do more, certainly in states where the guidelines are so laughably minimal right now
. Making staff sign waivers is a dumb attempt by the employer to abdicate their responsibility.
thisisnotmyname
Jun 22, 20 9:47 am
Don't sign it. An employer with no liability will have no incentive to properly clean the office and arrange operations to minimize potential spread. Tell the m*therf*ukers (oops, I mean your employers) you have 6 children you are homeschooling and will have to do WFH indefintely.
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 12:35 pm
This got me cracking up as our managing partner said in a meeting during the beginning of the pandemic, “Cases show COVID doesn’t really affect children.” He also had another good one, “It has not been scientifically proven that you can catch COV-ID taking pub
lic transportation”
thisisnotmyname
Jun 22, 20 4:29 pm
Do your bosses f*ck up all other aspects of HR as well? How many folks there are misclassified (the better term is "illegal") 1099 contractors?
threeohdoor
Jun 23, 20 9:45 am
Your managing partner is both an idiot and desperate to save the firm. Puts you in a crappy situation.
Chad Miller
Jun 22, 20 10:16 am
Don't sign anything. If it is a requirement of your continued employment let them fire you - collect UI and sue.
Our office opened - people can work from home at any time if they feel uncomfortable. We didn't have to sign anything.
When we come into work in the am, at lunch, and at the end of the day we take our temps and fill out a symptom form per state guidelines. This is to send someone home if sick and help with tracking if it turns out to be COVID. Internally the office decided that if someone did get sick (COVID or not) they would have everyone return to WFO for two weeks.
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 12:31 pm
Thanks for the advice.
zonker
Jun 22, 20 12:32 pm
I'd sign it, anything to get out of WFH
Peter Normand
Jun 22, 20 2:32 pm
Zillow, I think this is not an easy thing to answer but a few things to consider:
1 Can you sign the waiver but still keep a minimal in-person presence at work?
2 How closely packed in is your office layout, can you be socially distant or are you literally sitting on-top of each other.
3 If you take an adversarial stance and get fired can you survive without unemployment benefits while your claim us being adjudicated? I had this happen once in 2010 and it took 3 months to be resolved and determined that I was let go without just cause. Some small employers instead of taking a hit on their unemployment insurance cost, cost that go up if they fire people without cause, just to be cheap jerks challenged my benefits. With the huge caseload the unemployment systems are facing this could take a long time to resolve if there is a dispute.
4 Are you or people you live with or have close contact with particularly vulnerable?
5 Are there other opportunities available to you or are you stuck with this job or nothing.
Zillow
Jun 22, 20 3:23 pm
not sure. My boss really hates WFH and wants everyone together.
It’s a packed office. They haven’t shared any plans of COV-ID measures they plan on implementing.
Yes I could survive but it will not be ideal. We already signed another contract/agreement which retroactively gave everyone a pay cut. Meaning although we worked the last month with the original contract, this new agreement will cut our salary for that month. I’m more concerned about constantly giving in and being taking advantage of.
Yes.
I have been actively looking but nothing yet.
Chad Miller
Jun 22, 20 3:57 pm
Sounds like you firm and it's owners are dicks. Get the hell out of there.
midlander
Jun 22, 20 7:13 pm
stop signing things you don't want to sign! if they need to let you go they will, and they don't need your permission to do that. let them feel responsible for their actions.
James Bragg
Jun 25, 20 4:42 am
About "I’m more concerned about constantly giving in and being taking advantage of", considering how things are going in the US, are you not worried about your health?
Everyday Architect
Jun 22, 20 4:04 pm
Tell your boss that sometimes we don't always get what we want and that they should stop acting like a child.
I wouldn't agree to come back to the office until there were measures in place.
Your boss made you retroactively sign a contract to take a pay cut!? I'd challenge them on this and make them stick to the previous contract unless there is a clause that they can renegotiate at will, or for global pandemics.
More reason to not go back without adequate measures in place, or not go back at all yet.
Keep looking. Quite frankly your boss sounds like a giant D.
Everyday Architect
Jun 22, 20 4:06 pm
Also, with your talk of signing contracts, it sounds like you're being classified as an independent contractor. If you are, your boss should have no power to direct where or when you work. If they do, they are mislabeling you per the IRS.
x-jla
Jun 23, 20 4:34 am
unless you are an independent contractor this seems like a big no no in regards to workman’s comp law. You can’t have employees sign away their ability to make a workman’s comp claim when the state requires that you cover them. In think. Maybe misunderstanding this? I’d call an employment attorney and ask.
CodesareFUN
Jun 25, 20 9:41 pm
Somewhat related: gotta love site visits and finding out some of the construction workers have COVID....
Hello,
What would you do if your company wants you to come back into office and they ask you to sign a liability waiver so the office is not responsible for any COV-ID related issues.
Is that waiver even legally binding?
do you have an option to continue working from home, or are they saying something to the effect that they recognize they're putting your safety at risk and if you don't agree to that you lose your job?
Their verbiage is
Their verbiage is “architecture is naturally collaborative and it’s easier in person....some teams work together better when everyone is in the same place...etc.” They are not explicitly forcing you to come into the office as that will break SF ordinances but my boss and bosses are for sure are going in.
Does that waiver also mean you're in the clear if you're the one bringing in the 'rona?
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You must be working in the US.
Correct. San Francisco.
It hasn't been tested in court yet as we're still in the throes of the pandemic (USA! USA!). Most often, liability waivers are non-binding as it can be argued that the employer has superior negotiating power and undue influence on the signature (duh). At the very least, the Trump executive order mandates that employers follow federal government guidelines in good faith. What those federal guidelines are? I have no f-ing clue. I'd imagine it's something along the lines of social distancing, masks in the workplace, hand sanitizer, etc. However, your mileage may vary depending on your state (USA! USA!) as regulations in NY are and will be much different than in the less-mafia but more-yahoo states like Texas and Arizona.
Does the employer have an agreement with the commercial landlord? Elevators, entrances, shared bathrooms, etc can all be vectors.
Honestly, it smells and having just dealt with a load of smelly business tactics in the past few months, I'd be quite hesitant to sign.
Yes, it is the employer's responsibility to figure out what the government's guidelines are for a particular office location and make that be the starting point for how they reopen and operate. Many smart firms will opt to do more, certainly in states where the guidelines are so laughably minimal right now . Making staff sign waivers is a dumb attempt by the employer to abdicate their responsibility.
Don't sign it. An employer with no liability will have no incentive to properly clean the office and arrange operations to minimize potential spread. Tell the m*therf*ukers (oops, I mean your employers) you have 6 children you are homeschooling and will have to do WFH indefintely.
This got me cracking up as our managing partner said in a meeting during the beginning of the pandemic, “Cases show COVID doesn’t really affect children.” He also had another good one, “It has not been scientifically proven that you can catch COV-ID taking pub
lic transportation”
Do your bosses f*ck up all other aspects of HR as well? How many folks there are misclassified (the better term is "illegal") 1099 contractors?
Your managing partner is both an idiot and desperate to save the firm. Puts you in a crappy situation.
Don't sign anything. If it is a requirement of your continued employment let them fire you - collect UI and sue.
Our office opened - people can work from home at any time if they feel uncomfortable. We didn't have to sign anything.
When we come into work in the am, at lunch, and at the end of the day we take our temps and fill out a symptom form per state guidelines. This is to send someone home if sick and help with tracking if it turns out to be COVID. Internally the office decided that if someone did get sick (COVID or not) they would have everyone return to WFO for two weeks.
Thanks for the advice.
I'd sign it, anything to get out of WFH
Zillow, I think this is not an easy thing to answer but a few things to consider:
1 Can you sign the waiver but still keep a minimal in-person presence at work?
2 How closely packed in is your office layout, can you be socially distant or are you literally sitting on-top of each other.
3 If you take an adversarial stance and get fired can you survive without unemployment benefits while your claim us being adjudicated? I had this happen once in 2010 and it took 3 months to be resolved and determined that I was let go without just cause. Some small employers instead of taking a hit on their unemployment insurance cost, cost that go up if they fire people without cause, just to be cheap jerks challenged my benefits. With the huge caseload the unemployment systems are facing this could take a long time to resolve if there is a dispute.
4 Are you or people you live with or have close contact with particularly vulnerable?
5 Are there other opportunities available to you or are you stuck with this job or nothing.
Sounds like you firm and it's owners are dicks. Get the hell out of there.
stop signing things you don't want to sign! if they need to let you go they will, and they don't need your permission to do that. let them feel responsible for their actions.
About "I’m more concerned about constantly giving in and being taking advantage of", considering how things are going in the US, are you not worried about your health?
Also, with your talk of signing contracts, it sounds like you're being classified as an independent contractor. If you are, your boss should have no power to direct where or when you work. If they do, they are mislabeling you per the IRS.
unless you are an independent contractor this seems like a big no no in regards to workman’s comp law. You can’t have employees sign away their ability to make a workman’s comp claim when the state requires that you cover them. In think. Maybe misunderstanding this? I’d call an employment attorney and ask.
Somewhat related: gotta love site visits and finding out some of the construction workers have COVID....