In dealing with mechanical, electrical, plumbing engineers. What extent of knowledge are architects required to have in coordinating their work?
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 2:10 pm
You need to know 2 things about your MEP consultant's scope of work:
Enough about the sizes and layout of their services to determine when things are/will be in conflict because never in the history of the work has one engineer bothered to check with another (even when it's literally the same person doing both tasks) if their shit is in the way of another's shit.
Enough about what they do so that you can call them out on their bullshit when they say that something can't be done.
bowling_ball
Feb 7, 20 3:28 pm
1000% what NS just wrote.
Wood Guy
Feb 7, 20 4:04 pm
^ +1. Especially the second item. Always ask for their Manual J calculations, and learn enough to know when they are faking inputs to get the outputs they want.
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 4:07 pm
Wood guy, for me, I just keep poking at their work until they confess all they did was copy the systems from a previous similar project.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 7, 20 4:35 pm
This is one of the most concise and useful summaries I've ever read pertaining to our work.
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 6:08 pm
I only aim for feature comments.
threeohdoor
Feb 7, 20 2:14 pm
General system operations and requirements. If you're calculating loads (other than a back-of-napkin types for magnitudes), you've gone too far. You should know how a particular system would impact other systems and general design. For example: Do you have a slab cut for a duct? What are the dimensions? Does it require extra steel bracing? Would it behoove you to locate ducts and risers in the same chase? Can you mix water/duct or electrical/duct or whatever? Check code.
It also helps to have an idea of system cost (again, order of magnitude, not necessarily the exact number).
Also have a decent understanding of the deliverables to the client and to the AHJ for each trade. You might think you just need a PL set, but did the site connect go out? Backflow? Fire Department requirements? Being familiar with what other sets need to be produced will help firm up your ability to coordinate across trades.
gwharton
Feb 7, 20 3:17 pm
Ducts go where ducts go. I have been informed by a succession of mechanical engineers that this is a fundamental truth of existence which may not be challenged.
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 3:48 pm
I would like to contest this point. Ducts go were they go, however, if the path they are taking is fucking stupid, I will ask for an itinerary change. Sorry if that means the M has to actually do some calcs and resize the ducts but I ain't lowering my ceiling 10" because you're too lazy to make the effort.
Literally a conversation I have in every project.
gwharton
Feb 7, 20 3:57 pm
WHY ARE YOU ANTI-SCIENCE???
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 4:08 pm
I'm anti-laziness and anti-incompetence.
gwharton
Feb 7, 20 4:11 pm
I am sorry to inform you that you have chosen the wrong profession, then.
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 4:18 pm
You're right, I should have been a rockstar astronaut and part-time cacti arborist.
gwharton
Feb 7, 20 4:31 pm
Much more sensible choice.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 7, 20 4:33 pm
life as an engineer must be so simple, there is only one answer always
atelier nobody
Feb 7, 20 4:51 pm
I just had a big fight with a mechanical contractor over a duct layout that "couldn't be done." His "solution" involved dropping my ceiling to 7'-6" (with top of glazing already installed at 8'-9").
Non Sequitur
Feb 7, 20 6:07 pm
The answer is 42.
atelier nobody
Feb 7, 20 6:17 pm
tintt - One of the only 2 projects I've ever worked on that ended up in court was largely because the structural engineer insisted there was only one right way to do something (which just happened to blow the client's budget).
Almosthip7
Feb 7, 20 6:53 pm
Structural ducts are always answer
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 7, 20 7:31 pm
I have the best bad duct route story ever. Imagine wrapping a duct around a column in order to support it. But it wasn't a column, it was even more bizarre.
BIMBoisRUs
Nov 23, 22 6:07 pm
I am aware I am late to the discussion, but Mechanical Engineer / BIM Manager here. Although I do get the gist of the messages here and many do have merit based on the typical MEP designer/engineer, this is not always the case. For example, I personally have never just copied layouts from previous projects and always have discussions with the Architect upfront to suggest multiple layouts and strategies that try to minimize the impact to the aesthetics. This is not always possible as there are a LOT of utilities that have to be considered - not just the ductwork and mechanical equipment. I also have horror stories from Architect's that couldn't do simple math when the total required duct free area required exceeded the available 9" above ceiling, so it is a reciprocal thing where some people just aren't good at their profession.
The main issue I run into currently is there is little to no interstitial space due to the higher decorative ceilings (and framing), and the structure frequently prevents most if not all duct routing solutions because they are designing at the same time in most Revit projects (they should be almost done prior to MEP coming onboard). Also, the more you raise the ceilings and include massive curtain walls and windows, the higher the required loads and airflows become. This of course translates to larger ducts and equipment.
I would be interested in having a constructive discussion with Architects and I.D. designers to explore the driving factors on the design decisions and potential implications from both sides, and how to best resolve conflicts to get the best of both worlds.
Any takers?
Non Sequitur
Nov 23, 22 6:40 pm
You must be a unicorn then because no one has ever even come close to offering such services in my area.
Kinsbergen
Nov 26, 22 8:56 am
Tough guy talk blah blah
BIMBoisRUs
Nov 26, 22 10:41 am
I'm still here. I wouldn't call it a service, I'm just interested in learning what the design constraints are from a different perspective and how people deal with them.
kjpn
Nov 26, 22 9:21 pm
Unless your MEP engineer is developing drawings for very simple and conventional systems, you need to be careful and do your homework to make sure they are doing a thorough and correct job. I am working on a large residential project utilizing a lot of hydronic systems and our first mep engineer was completely screwing it up and leaving a critical amount of scope undeveloped and undocumented. I had no idea the drawings were so problematic until we started talking to other MEP firms and showed them their drawings.
It’s kind of a no brainer that architects need to conceptually consider how heating and cooling is administered and placed in their designs. But there is another level of attention to the MEP documentation completion and system design functionality that is very important that we don’t have easy insight into without having more experience. The final thing is having the attention to detail as a designer in terms of adjusting the location and size of various mep elements (registers, grilles, drains, devices etc) in the space.
BIMBoisRUs
Nov 28, 22 10:20 am
I would wholeheartedly agree with you, and I think this is where nost of the disconnect occurs. Are there any rules of thumb that Architects utilize for typical MEP utility requirements?
Do most people here
BIMBoisRUs
Nov 28, 22 10:21 am
*use Revit or CAD? Sorry apparently it sends messages when you hit return instead of starting a new paragraph.
kjpn
Nov 28, 22 5:48 pm
I think revit is more prevalent for people who need dedicated
MEP consultants
BIMBoisRUs
Nov 30, 22 7:34 pm
That makes sense. Not that anyone cares, but I had a meeting with one of our Architectural clients today to discuss how we can better coordinate on all projects, especially Revit. It went surprisingly well and it seemed like we were on the same page concerning how tweaking small things could help the other disciplines with design and modeling. As I continue to explore more of the Architectural nuisances, what (in your opinion) what would you consider the number 1 thing a MEP team could do to help the project overall? Just adaptability and minimizing conflicts or something else? Appreciate the information thus far.
In dealing with mechanical, electrical, plumbing engineers. What extent of knowledge are architects required to have in coordinating their work?
You need to know 2 things about your MEP consultant's scope of work:
1000% what NS just wrote.
^ +1. Especially the second item. Always ask for their Manual J calculations, and learn enough to know when they are faking inputs to get the outputs they want.
Wood guy, for me, I just keep poking at their work until they confess all they did was copy the systems from a previous similar project.
This is one of the most concise and useful summaries I've ever read pertaining to our work.
I only aim for feature comments.
General system operations and requirements. If you're calculating loads (other than a back-of-napkin types for magnitudes), you've gone too far. You should know how a particular system would impact other systems and general design. For example: Do you have a slab cut for a duct? What are the dimensions? Does it require extra steel bracing? Would it behoove you to locate ducts and risers in the same chase? Can you mix water/duct or electrical/duct or whatever? Check code.
It also helps to have an idea of system cost (again, order of magnitude, not necessarily the exact number).
Also have a decent understanding of the deliverables to the client and to the AHJ for each trade. You might think you just need a PL set, but did the site connect go out? Backflow? Fire Department requirements? Being familiar with what other sets need to be produced will help firm up your ability to coordinate across trades.
Ducts go where ducts go. I have been informed by a succession of mechanical engineers that this is a fundamental truth of existence which may not be challenged.
I would like to contest this point. Ducts go were they go, however, if the path they are taking is fucking stupid, I will ask for an itinerary change. Sorry if that means the M has to actually do some calcs and resize the ducts but I ain't lowering my ceiling 10" because you're too lazy to make the effort.
Literally a conversation I have in every project.
WHY ARE YOU ANTI-SCIENCE???
I'm anti-laziness and anti-incompetence.
I am sorry to inform you that you have chosen the wrong profession, then.
You're right, I should have been a rockstar astronaut and part-time cacti arborist.
Much more sensible choice.
life as an engineer must be so simple, there is only one answer always
I just had a big fight with a mechanical contractor over a duct layout that "couldn't be done." His "solution" involved dropping my ceiling to 7'-6" (with top of glazing already installed at 8'-9").
The answer is 42.
tintt - One of the only 2 projects I've ever worked on that ended up in court was largely because the structural engineer insisted there was only one right way to do something (which just happened to blow the client's budget).
Structural ducts are always answer
I have the best bad duct route story ever. Imagine wrapping a duct around a column in order to support it. But it wasn't a column, it was even more bizarre.
I am aware I am late to the discussion, but Mechanical Engineer / BIM Manager here. Although I do get the gist of the messages here and many do have merit based on the typical MEP designer/engineer, this is not always the case. For example, I personally have never just copied layouts from previous projects and always have discussions with the Architect upfront to suggest multiple layouts and strategies that try to minimize the impact to the aesthetics. This is not always possible as there are a LOT of utilities that have to be considered - not just the ductwork and mechanical equipment. I also have horror stories from Architect's that couldn't do simple math when the total required duct free area required exceeded the available 9" above ceiling, so it is a reciprocal thing where some people just aren't good at their profession.
The main issue I run into currently is there is little to no interstitial space due to the higher decorative ceilings (and framing), and the structure frequently prevents most if not all duct routing solutions because they are designing at the same time in most Revit projects (they should be almost done prior to MEP coming onboard). Also, the more you raise the ceilings and include massive curtain walls and windows, the higher the required loads and airflows become. This of course translates to larger ducts and equipment.
I would be interested in having a constructive discussion with Architects and I.D. designers to explore the driving factors on the design decisions and potential implications from both sides, and how to best resolve conflicts to get the best of both worlds.
Any takers?
You must be a unicorn then because no one has ever even come close to offering such services in my area.
Tough guy talk blah blah
I'm still here. I wouldn't call it a service, I'm just interested in learning what the design constraints are from a different perspective and how people deal with them.
Unless your MEP engineer is developing drawings for very simple and conventional systems, you need to be careful and do your homework to make sure they are doing a thorough and correct job. I am working on a large residential project utilizing a lot of hydronic systems and our first mep engineer was completely screwing it up and leaving a critical amount of scope undeveloped and undocumented. I had no idea the drawings were so problematic until we started talking to other MEP firms and showed them their drawings.
It’s kind of a no brainer that architects need to conceptually consider how heating and cooling is administered and placed in their designs. But there is another level of attention to the MEP documentation completion and system design functionality that is very important that we don’t have easy insight into without having more experience. The final thing is having the attention to detail as a designer in terms of adjusting the location and size of various mep elements (registers, grilles, drains, devices etc) in the space.
I would wholeheartedly agree with you, and I think this is where nost of the disconnect occurs. Are there any rules of thumb that Architects utilize for typical MEP utility requirements?
Do most people here
*use Revit or CAD? Sorry apparently it sends messages when you hit return instead of starting a new paragraph.
I think revit is more prevalent for people who need dedicated
MEP consultants
That makes sense. Not that anyone cares, but I had a meeting with one of our Architectural clients today to discuss how we can better coordinate on all projects, especially Revit. It went surprisingly well and it seemed like we were on the same page concerning how tweaking small things could help the other disciplines with design and modeling. As I continue to explore more of the Architectural nuisances, what (in your opinion) what would you consider the number 1 thing a MEP team could do to help the project overall? Just adaptability and minimizing conflicts or something else? Appreciate the information thus far.