To all New York Architects, I was just offered a part-time job in the evening at a DOB filing representative ( DOB Expeditor) office. The job involves making architectural, structural, plumbing and electrical drawings for DOB submissions. Do you think a job at a DOB expeditor will help my career as a future architect in NYC?
TedMosby
Dec 16, 19 10:19 am
I’m in an extremely small firm in Chicago right now where we do all that too. I know I’m only 22 but it has given me a huge leg up on my fellow students who do not understand MEP or how the DOB truly works yet, however I think there is a ceiling of what I can gain. Sure technical knowledge is great, but in a field that is becoming more specialized, I am afraid I will fall into the engineering side of things if I stay here too much longer. Plus we do most of the same type of projects over and over. How can I expect to apply to a design firm when all I’ve ever done was basically the engineering? I’m worried I’ll get pigeon holed. So my recommendation is work there for a year or two, write down absolutely everything you learn, and then see if you can go to a design firm. That’s what I’m attempting to do in the upcoming year. Hope this helps and have a great day.
Adam K
Dec 16, 19 2:43 pm
From a 27 years old, I advise you to move to a design firm ASAP. If you don't, your salary will become too good that will prevent you from going back to architecture.. At some point in the future, it will be a huge salary cut, this is my situation now. I'm going to lose around 70k a year
in salary soon just so I can work as a junior designer in an architectural firm..instead of my current position as a manager in a steel fabricator..
OddArchitect
Dec 16, 19 10:32 am
Something to keep in mind - design and engineering are not mutually exclusive skills - you need both to be a good architect.
Adam K
Dec 16, 19 10:38 am
Thank you all. Chad, do you think DOB expedition can be an extra service that an architectural office could offer. Are there architects out there that offer this type of services as an additional service?
threeohdoor
Dec 16, 19 10:52 am
Hey, Expediting in NYC can absolutely be a revenue stream for architects, especially in the realm of small Alt II type jobs and others. However, mileage may vary as many of the firms that do this are quite small and rarely do any sort of 'design'. Exp fees are often on par with architectural services (again, depends on the project).
NYC DOB (with DOB Now) is seeking to severely limit the amount of actual "expediting" done, instead pushing said people into the "code consultant" role. Therefore, the expediting niche is going through a transition. That said, I have a coworker who moved over from expediting and his background allowed him to excel.
Also, be careful of doing DOB submissions, part-time, for an expediter. You might getting into some shady territory, and while you wouldn't be liable, you might be participating in a less-than-legit scheme. If someone asks you to redraw a PL riser because "oh, those two toilets were existing...", you should head the other way.
Adam K
Dec 16, 19 11:48 am
This is extremely helpful. Thanks you so much! Do you think the new created "Code Consultants" will be as busy as the current "expeditors" ? Why large architectural frim don't have staff to offer this extra service? You mentioned that firms who offer this additional service is quiet small. Wouldn't be profitable
for big firms to have "expeditors" in their staff?
threeohdoor
Dec 16, 19 3:01 pm
Eh, the complexity of expediting grows considerably the largest the project. Take paperwork for example. For small renovations, the paperwork can be out the door in an hour. For large jobs, you'll have multiple design applications, multiple inspectors (maybe), a whole host of additional zoning items, site connect items, etc. Most big firms (if not all) will understand that they don't have the expertise to pull all of that off, nor the head count. Better to focus on core competencies. Plus, it's always nice to be able to yell at someone when the administrative stuff gets tacky. When a small firm screws up their paperwork (happens way more often than you'd think), they have no one to yell at except the junior architect. :P
Eh, if you ask expediters, they'll say they are always "busy". When I say that they are being pushed into Code Consulting, I mean to say that a core function of literally bringing printed drawing sets and paperwork to a DOB office is going away. OT (Arch) filings are among the few that have yet to become fully digital. Expediters say that are good because they "cultivate relationships" with examiners and DOB people, but that's only true for a hand full of individuals. Many are dead weight.
BulgarBlogger
Dec 16, 19 4:43 pm
BE VERY CAREFUL!!
"The job involves making architectural, structural, plumbing and electrical drawings for DOB submissions. "
Bulgar, she only does the drafting and the expediting. She sends the drawings she drew to the architect to review and sign off. Is that illegal practically?
BulgarBlogger
Dec 17, 19 8:34 am
Nope. You can't tell your client you are offering architectural services and then behind the scenes have an actual registered architect signing and sealing the drawings. The only way around this would be if the owner had a direct and separate contract with both the Architect of Record and your firm (the expediter).
Adam K
Dec 17, 19 8:55 am
Well, I guess the real world is not too perfect. She (the expeditor) works with big landlords, she knows them personally for years. I guess she's more like the owners' representative. Not sure if she follows the legal paths, probably not.
BulgarBlogger
Dec 17, 19 8:56 am
Do you really want to work with someone who is ethically unclean? Today's its this, tomorrow's that. I can't imagine you're that desperate...
OddArchitect
Dec 17, 19 9:53 am
I agree with BB, this is shady and you can't trust a person like that. If you're going to work for someone you need to be able to trust them.
threeohdoor
Dec 17, 19 10:29 am
Yea, this stuff happens a lot in NYC and, presumably, elsewhere. It sounds like the landlord client has a deal with her and a hired stamp. If all the parties are aware of the situation (contract or otherwise) you're merely participating in some less-than-ideal scheme where the hired stamp is taking some extraordinary liability. If the landlord is unaware of the hire stamped and thinks that the woman's firm is actually taking responsibility for the work, then you've got bigger problems.
Also, you should understand that "Big Landlord" doesn't mean "Good Landlord."
Another question: does she receive any sketches, drawings, etc from the hired stamp?
You can search her history on DOB BIS using her filing rep license number or name. Get a sense of the people who are actually listed as "Design Applicant" on applications. Sniff around the paperwork to get a sense of ownership entities, consultants, etc. Are most of her expedited applications "Professionally Certified"? Does she have an unusually large number of applications that have not been "Signed off"? Do some background leg work on the type of people with which you'd be working.
BulgarBlogger
Dec 17, 19 1:08 pm
I bet you anything this woman, if asked, would say: "a lot of firms operate this way." And she would be right. But that does mean it is legal or ethical. If you go on the NYs office of professions website, you will clearly see that what is going IS NOT allowed. Beyond that it is unethical. She probably offered you the job because there's no one else who wants to take it. Not sure what your salary is, but I can't imagine it is that high. Also, its not like you are able to take this exeprience and count it toward licensure. Even if you were somehow able to, the quality of this experience really sucks. I think it is an all around bad deal, but hey: if you just got fired or layed off from a different job, and are now desparate because money's running out and you need to pay rent, do it. But just know that you
Adam K
Dec 17, 19 1:51 pm
No not desperate for a job nor money. In fact, I can only work for her in the evenings and weekends, just for the knowledge, but anyway you talked me out of it already. I went there a couple of days last week and didn't have a clear picture of what she does until you just laid it out to me. Now I get it. And her office is in the Woolworth building. Can you imagine
how much money she makes to be able to afford rent an office there? I'm only desperate for knowledge, I work in the steel industry (Head of detailer) a year after graduation from school, I hit the 135k a year, I was 26. If you know an architect in NYC, you know that this is sh't load of money for this age. But I'm almost 28 now and only have steel experience and want to get in architecture because that was always my dream, but I ran after the money when I was younger. I've been looking for awhile for a sole architect or a small firm that I can work for in the afternoons and weekends just part time so I can get experience and hours toward my licensure, couldn't find any so far. If I get hired at a full time job, in a junior architect position, that would be an easy 50k-60k salary cut. That would make me suffer financially for years to come. Any advise would be very appreciated!!
threeohdoor
Dec 17, 19 2:21 pm
I think the appropriate analogy here is diving into the shallow end...you're only going to get hurt. There are many ways to interact with the world of architecture, ones that don't involve axing 80k of your yearly income. What about architecture do you like? Do you like the profession? Do you like the history? Do you like cad drawings?
Adam K
Dec 17, 19 2:47 pm
Sure I like the profession, the history, the design adrenaline, everything. That's why I went to school for 5 years! but I was just naïve in my early 20s and followed who would gave me a couple of dollars extra per hour!
Bench
Dec 17, 19 2:20 pm
Why would it make you suffer for years to come to operate on a lower salary now? Dropping to the 60-70k range is not unheard of at all for a mid/late-20s professional in NYC. You simply scale back how you live.
Adam K
Dec 17, 19 2:51 pm
I support a family member as well, 70K will be extremely hard but not impossible, it will probably make me find a weekend job. Anyway I guess this is the only way to go. I've been thinking for months and the path seems more clear now. Thanks to you and the others!
archinine
Dec 18, 19 6:50 pm
Wild. There is nothing about architecture that’s worth a 60k drop in salary. I’ll trade you any day.
To all New York Architects, I was just offered a part-time job in the evening at a DOB filing representative ( DOB Expeditor) office. The job involves making architectural, structural, plumbing and electrical drawings for DOB submissions. Do you think a job at a DOB expeditor will help my career as a future architect in NYC?
I’m in an extremely small firm in Chicago right now where we do all that too. I know I’m only 22 but it has given me a huge leg up on my fellow students who do not understand MEP or how the DOB truly works yet, however I think there is a ceiling of what I can gain. Sure technical knowledge is great, but in a field that is becoming more specialized, I am afraid I will fall into the engineering side of things if I stay here too much longer. Plus we do most of the same type of projects over and over. How can I expect to apply to a design firm when all I’ve ever done was basically the engineering? I’m worried I’ll get pigeon holed. So my recommendation is work there for a year or two, write down absolutely everything you learn, and then see if you can go to a design firm. That’s what I’m attempting to do in the upcoming year. Hope this helps and have a great day.
From a 27 years old, I advise you to move to a design firm ASAP. If you don't, your salary will become too good that will prevent you from going back to architecture.. At some point in the future, it will be a huge salary cut, this is my situation now. I'm going to lose around 70k a year in salary soon just so I can work as a junior designer in an architectural firm..instead of my current position as a manager in a steel fabricator..
Something to keep in mind - design and engineering are not mutually exclusive skills - you need both to be a good architect.
Thank you all. Chad, do you think DOB expedition can be an extra service that an architectural office could offer. Are there architects out there that offer this type of services as an additional service?
Hey, Expediting in NYC can absolutely be a revenue stream for architects, especially in the realm of small Alt II type jobs and others. However, mileage may vary as many of the firms that do this are quite small and rarely do any sort of 'design'. Exp fees are often on par with architectural services (again, depends on the project).
NYC DOB (with DOB Now) is seeking to severely limit the amount of actual "expediting" done, instead pushing said people into the "code consultant" role. Therefore, the expediting niche is going through a transition. That said, I have a coworker who moved over from expediting and his background allowed him to excel.
Also, be careful of doing DOB submissions, part-time, for an expediter. You might getting into some shady territory, and while you wouldn't be liable, you might be participating in a less-than-legit scheme. If someone asks you to redraw a PL riser because "oh, those two toilets were existing...", you should head the other way.
This is extremely helpful. Thanks you so much! Do you think the new created "Code Consultants" will be as busy as the current "expeditors" ? Why large architectural frim don't have staff to offer this extra service? You mentioned that firms who offer this additional service is quiet small. Wouldn't be profitable for big firms to have "expeditors" in their staff?
Eh, the complexity of expediting grows considerably the largest the project. Take paperwork for example. For small renovations, the paperwork can be out the door in an hour. For large jobs, you'll have multiple design applications, multiple inspectors (maybe), a whole host of additional zoning items, site connect items, etc. Most big firms (if not all) will understand that they don't have the expertise to pull all of that off, nor the head count. Better to focus on core competencies. Plus, it's always nice to be able to yell at someone when the administrative stuff gets tacky. When a small firm screws up their paperwork (happens way more often than you'd think), they have no one to yell at except the junior architect. :P
Eh, if you ask expediters, they'll say they are always "busy". When I say that they are being pushed into Code Consulting, I mean to say that a core function of literally bringing printed drawing sets and paperwork to a DOB office is going away. OT (Arch) filings are among the few that have yet to become fully digital. Expediters say that are good because they "cultivate relationships" with examiners and DOB people, but that's only true for a hand full of individuals. Many are dead weight.
BE VERY CAREFUL!!
"The job involves making architectural, structural, plumbing and electrical drawings for DOB submissions. "
Is this firm registered as an Architectural Firm? Only certain entities can legally offer architectural services. http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/permissible-corporate-entities.pdf
Bulgar, she only does the drafting and the expediting. She sends the drawings she drew to the architect to review and sign off. Is that illegal practically?
Nope. You can't tell your client you are offering architectural services and then behind the scenes have an actual registered architect signing and sealing the drawings. The only way around this would be if the owner had a direct and separate contract with both the Architect of Record and your firm (the expediter).
Well, I guess the real world is not too perfect. She (the expeditor) works with big landlords, she knows them personally for years. I guess she's more like the owners' representative. Not sure if she follows the legal paths, probably not.
Do you really want to work with someone who is ethically unclean? Today's its this, tomorrow's that. I can't imagine you're that desperate...
I agree with BB, this is shady and you can't trust a person like that. If you're going to work for someone you need to be able to trust them.
Yea, this stuff happens a lot in NYC and, presumably, elsewhere. It sounds like the landlord client has a deal with her and a hired stamp. If all the parties are aware of the situation (contract or otherwise) you're merely participating in some less-than-ideal scheme where the hired stamp is taking some extraordinary liability. If the landlord is unaware of the hire stamped and thinks that the woman's firm is actually taking responsibility for the work, then you've got bigger problems.
Also, you should understand that "Big Landlord" doesn't mean "Good Landlord."
Another question: does she receive any sketches, drawings, etc from the hired stamp?
You can search her history on DOB BIS using her filing rep license number or name. Get a sense of the people who are actually listed as "Design Applicant" on applications. Sniff around the paperwork to get a sense of ownership entities, consultants, etc. Are most of her expedited applications "Professionally Certified"? Does she have an unusually large number of applications that have not been "Signed off"? Do some background leg work on the type of people with which you'd be working.
I bet you anything this woman, if asked, would say: "a lot of firms operate this way." And she would be right. But that does mean it is legal or ethical. If you go on the NYs office of professions website, you will clearly see that what is going IS NOT allowed. Beyond that it is unethical. She probably offered you the job because there's no one else who wants to take it. Not sure what your salary is, but I can't imagine it is that high. Also, its not like you are able to take this exeprience and count it toward licensure. Even if you were somehow able to, the quality of this experience really sucks. I think it is an all around bad deal, but hey: if you just got fired or layed off from a different job, and are now desparate because money's running out and you need to pay rent, do it. But just know that you
No not desperate for a job nor money. In fact, I can only work for her in the evenings and weekends, just for the knowledge, but anyway you talked me out of it already. I went there a couple of days last week and didn't have a clear picture of what she does until you just laid it out to me. Now I get it. And her office is in the Woolworth building. Can you imagine how much money she makes to be able to afford rent an office there? I'm only desperate for knowledge, I work in the steel industry (Head of detailer) a year after graduation from school, I hit the 135k a year, I was 26. If you know an architect in NYC, you know that this is sh't load of money for this age. But I'm almost 28 now and only have steel experience and want to get in architecture because that was always my dream, but I ran after the money when I was younger. I've been looking for awhile for a sole architect or a small firm that I can work for in the afternoons and weekends just part time so I can get experience and hours toward my licensure, couldn't find any so far. If I get hired at a full time job, in a junior architect position, that would be an easy 50k-60k salary cut. That would make me suffer financially for years to come. Any advise would be very appreciated!!
I think the appropriate analogy here is diving into the shallow end...you're only going to get hurt. There are many ways to interact with the world of architecture, ones that don't involve axing 80k of your yearly income. What about architecture do you like? Do you like the profession? Do you like the history? Do you like cad drawings?
Sure I like the profession, the history, the design adrenaline, everything. That's why I went to school for 5 years! but I was just naïve in my early 20s and followed who would gave me a couple of dollars extra per hour!
Why would it make you suffer for years to come to operate on a lower salary now? Dropping to the 60-70k range is not unheard of at all for a mid/late-20s professional in NYC. You simply scale back how you live.
I support a family member as well, 70K will be extremely hard but not impossible, it will probably make me find a weekend job. Anyway I guess this is the only way to go. I've been thinking for months and the path seems more clear now. Thanks to you and the others!
Wild. There is nothing about architecture that’s worth a 60k drop in salary. I’ll trade you any day.