Among architects, does anyone care what state you get initially get licensed? bc some have more loose requirements.
OddArchitect
Oct 14, 19 7:05 pm
Short answer, no one cares.
The test for architectural licensture is the same in every state. A few states will have an additional test due to unique conditions (FL, CA, NY, I think). I could be incorrect about the states requiring an additional exam.
If you graduated from an accredited architectural program then once you obtain your first state license you can become licensed in any state by simply applying and paying the fee with no additional testing (except for the states listed above of course).
As far as I know if you do not have an accredited architectural degree then once you finish a longer IDP process you will only be licensed in the state you took your exam in. If you want to become licensed in another state you have to replete your IDP over again for that state. The years of IDP differ depending on your education, experience, and state you're applying to. However I believe it's a minimum of ten years per state license. I think only 14 states allow you to obtain an architectural license without attending an accredited architectural program.
Everyday Architect
Oct 14, 19 7:05 pm
No, within reason. It might look weird if you work for someone who does all their work in California and you're getting your license in West Virginia or something. Aside from that, if you are looking to later get reciprocity in another state you might run into some issues, but it's hard to say exactly without knowing more about your situation.
atelier nobody
Oct 15, 19 1:17 pm
Everyday Architect: "if you are looking to later get reciprocity in another state you might run into some issues"
THIS^
I got my license without a degree, in a state where that still works (CA), and reciprocity requirements are different in just about every state, with some states where I can't get reciprocity at all.
OddArchitect
Oct 15, 19 1:34 pm
Do you mean without an architectural degree or any degree?
atelier nobody
Oct 15, 19 2:11 pm
I have a humanities degree, but it wouldn't have made a difference if I didn't (or only a small difference - an unrelated degree is worth 6 mos credit, IIRC).
Everyday Architect
Oct 15, 19 2:16 pm
This is why I hinted that more information would be useful to understanding the OP's particular situation. I'm not trying to imply this is what you were trying to achieve atelier nobody, but your situation is a good example of how you can't really get around the base requirements in some jurisdictions just because you got a license somewhere else.
IIRC, Ricky looked into this at one point because the thought was he could get licensed in CA, or even WA(?), without an accredited architecture degree, and then get licensed in OR through reciprocity. Turns out OR still wouldn't allow him to get a license without the degree. I may be wrong on the details though.
atelier nobody
Oct 15, 19 2:23 pm
EA - I just wanted to give a concrete example of what you meant by needing more information. Also, you are correct about OR - no degree, no reciprocity.
thatsthat
Oct 16, 19 11:05 am
My license is through NY (no additional exams needed btw) and NY still allows experience in lieu of a professional degree as well. I'm nervous about eventually needing reciprocity as I have a pre-professional but got the rest of my credits towards licensure through experience. :-/
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 12:20 pm
In your situation you do not have reciprocity and you license is only good in NY.
atelier nobody
Oct 16, 19 1:25 pm
thatsthat - There is now a way for us non-degree guys to get NCARB certified. I believe (but I could be wrong) that with NCARB we'd be golden in every state.
Sounds like you need to have an undergrad degree in architecture to qualify. Still that's really nice!
thatsthat
Oct 16, 19 1:33 pm
atelier nobody - Yep! I looked at this a few years ago, but for me personally, it's a lot of money for something that I might need, but don't need right now. I think you have to check with the state you plan to move to to make sure they would even accept this path. I don't think every state accepts it. Idk about you, but I have family in another state, and it would be nice to be able to practice there if I ever need to move one day.
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 1:34 pm
You're right TT, I just read that not all jurisdictions accept the method linked above. Bummer.
Archlandia
Oct 18, 19 11:56 am
I called NCARB about six months ago and they said that with an NCARB certificate that reciprocity from another state into Oregon without a NAAB accredited degree is a matter of applying for reciprocity and "there would be no issues" ... however, I believe there is a disconnect with the Oregon board and NCARB. From what I remember, when I talked to the Oregon board, the answer I got was "reviewed on a case-by-case basis".
atelier nobody
Oct 18, 19 2:14 pm
In my experience, NCARB has never been up-to-date or correct about all states' requirements.
It really only matters if you don't have an accredited degree.
SpontaneousCombustion
Oct 15, 19 4:15 pm
It depends on what you mean by "does anyone care".
If you're asking if there's some sort of prestige associated with originally getting licensed in one state vs. another: then no, not at all. Most other architects are never going to even know or ask in which state you were initially licensed.
If you mean is having a license in any state good enough, for job hunting purposes in any other state, or for seniority in a firm or something like that: it depends on the firm, and what kind of work they do. If they're looking for a licensed architect simply because they feel that having a license is evidence of some level of experience and/or competency, then any state's license is as good as any other. But if they do public projects in a state with QBS (where they get points taken off in the selection process for each team member who is missing specific credentials) then it matters a lot that you have a license in the applicable state(s). Or if they want to be able to call you "Project Architect" or some other protected title, then you need a license in the state(s) where they practice. Or if you're on the succession track to partnership, or if you're in some role in a non-architect-owned company where you need to be able to stamp drawings, or whatever... then it may matter tremendously that you are licensed (or able to get reciprocity) in that state.
If you mean does any state's license automatically make you eligible for reciprocity in any other state: as others have said above, in most cases no, you need to meet each individual state's rules.
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 12:18 pm
To be fair though if you graduated with an accredited degree in architecture, finished your IDP, and passed the ARE you gain reciprocity in all 50 states.
Fivescore
Oct 16, 19 1:55 pm
Not necessarily. There are lots of types of experience and settings that count toward IDP/AXP as far as NCARB is concerned, but don't necessarily count toward certain states' requirements. I had to wait to get reciprocity in NY, and submit additional work experience, even when I already had an NCARB certificate, licenses in 2 states, an M.Arch from an NAAB-accredited school, had completed IDP and the ARE - because some of the experience I had used to satisfy IDP was partially completed during my student years, and NY doesn't accept that. There are states where an NCARB certificate pretty much gets you rubber-stamp-reciprocity with no second glance, and others where it's not a guarantee that state-specific rules still won't trip you up when they look at your NCARB record, because they have different minimum IDP/AXP durations, different allowed training settings, different starting points, etc.
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 2:03 pm
Good point. I forgot about the student IDP/AXP.
midlander
Oct 16, 19 12:39 pm
if there isn't any compelling reason to license in your current state, I'd recommend looking into the annual continuing education requirement and renewal fees, and go for somewhere that keeps both to a minimum. simplify your future life.
Everyday Architect
Oct 16, 19 2:25 pm
Would be interesting to hear more about the OP's situation and why they are asking the question.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 16, 19 2:54 pm
It doesn't matter if you're not signing and sealing anything.
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 3:29 pm
What an asinine comment.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 16, 19 6:04 pm
asinine or not- true. What the hell do I care what state you are registered in if am signing and sealing your work? As long as your follow the respective codes and zoning regulations of the state in which the project is located- you're just a hired hand.
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 6:23 pm
Sigh, spoken like someone who just works in production . . .
atelier nobody
Oct 16, 19 7:10 pm
The firm I was at when I got my license gave me a healthy bonus and raise, despite my not signing drawings. My current job requires me to be licensed, even though I don't sign drawings. But, y'know, you do you...
OddArchitect
Oct 16, 19 7:12 pm
Same here. Also once licensed my work and bio was included in proposals.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 16, 19 7:37 pm
What practical reason do you have to be licensed in other states, unless you are signing and sealing drawings? I'll gice you an example: I'm licensed in NYS; I can easily get a reciprocal license in NJ. I don't know anything about the code, zoning regulations, or permitting in NJ, but NY has reciprocal licensure agreements with NJ anyway. The point I am making is that licensed or not, if you're working for a firm in which you are not signing and sealing drawings, being licensed in multiple states means nothing unless you know HOW to practice in those states.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 16, 19 7:37 pm
What practical reason do you have to be licensed in other states, unless you are signing and sealing drawings? I'll gice you an example: I'm licensed in NYS; I can easily get a reciprocal license in NJ. I don't know anything about the code, zoning regulations, or permitting in NJ, but NY has reciprocal licensure agreements with NJ anyway. The point I am making is that licensed or not, if you're working for a firm in which you are not signing and sealing drawings, being licensed in multiple states means nothing unless you know HOW to practice in those states.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 16, 19 7:40 pm
Also- I disagree with your statement about someone being in production. Designers are in this position all the time, especially in big corporate firms. They let the technical department deal with all the permitting issues. However, I absolutely agree with your other point: getting licensed in multiple states only looks good on a resume, but I said, unless you're the one taking responsibility for the work, it is meaningless.
SpontaneousCombustion
Oct 16, 19 8:08 pm
The state where we do most of our work has a "quality-based selection" (QBS) protocol for publicly-funded projects, with a point system that gives or takes away points based partly on the credentials of the teams presented in the proposals. We do a lot of those types of projects, and typically the licenses and certifications of all the architects and consultants take up many pages of each proposal. We have staff who are unlicensed or who can't get reciprocity here because of not having an accredited degree, but they're pretty much limited to behind-the-scenes roles, because we can't have any of the client-facing people who have to be named in the proposal (like project managers, project architects, lead designers, or even spec writers or various types of project-specific specialists) who aren't licensed in this state.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 17, 19 9:10 am
I would bet the majority of architects do not do publicly-funded work. My statement is still valid for privately-funded projects.
OddArchitect
Oct 17, 19 12:14 pm
This can be true however I've seen a lot of privately funded projects require anyone on the design team to be licensed.
OddArchitect
Oct 17, 19 12:17 pm
Personally I could not see the point in pursuing a degree in architecture and not becoming licensed. It's a waste of time, talent, opportunities, and personal finical gain. Keep in mind I'm coming from the viewpoint of working in small to medium sized firms where team members do a bit of everything, including signing drawings.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 17, 19 1:26 pm
Chad Miller- I agree on a personal level. However, practically, if I am the principal of a firm, I'm the only one who is stamping drawings. Whether my team is licensed or not, I don't really care as long as they are affording me the same standard of care I would take if I did the work on my own.
Everyday Architect
Oct 17, 19 1:34 pm
Practically, isn't there some incentive for a firm to have more licensed architects on staff? I've heard that it can lower the insurance premiums you pay ... but I don't have any direct knowledge of this to know if it's true. There was at least one news article from a while back about how a firm was being sued because the client understood that licensed architects were working on their project when in fact most of the staff was unlicensed. That is arguably more a case of misrepresentation than one of need for staff to be licensed though ... but having the licensed staff would have avoided it altogether. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
Everyday Architect
Oct 17, 19 1:44 pm
Case wasn't exactly as I described above but here are some references...
With all the protesting I'm starting to think that Bubbles isn't licensed and / or can't become licensed.
Fivescore
Oct 17, 19 2:43 pm
Everyday Architect: in most cases insurance costs rise when a firm has more licensed staff - because each licensed person is someone who can be out in the field implementing independent judgment. The firm's worker's comp also rises for each licensed person (I don't know if it's the same in all regions, but here it more than doubles). Licensed professionals are categorized differently than unlicensed drafter/production staff, because they have a higher rate of job-related accidents/illnesses - probably partly because they're out in the field more, and also because statistically they're older, on average, as a group.
These increased costs aren't really so huge that they'd likely be much incentive for a firm to want to keep people from getting licensed though. And if you're a firm that heeds your insurance company's advice, you're not supposed to ever send unlicensed people to a job site unsupervised, or even allow them to attend any meetings on their own during bidding or CA, so deciding not to get a license can drastically limit what you can do in many firms, and your perceived usefulness.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 17, 19 4:04 pm
I am licensed in NYS, CA, HI
Bloopox
Oct 17, 19 4:35 pm
3Sleeve - yes the worker's comp assigned risk rates vary by state, and in some states by metro region. But most states all use the same class codes. A licensed architect is class 8601, and most firms put all the unlicensed people in 8603 no matter what their title is. That category includes all sorts of clerical workers including CAD and other technical office staff, and pretty much anything you'd find in an architecture firm that's "not otherwise categorized". 8603 is considered very low risk, and 8601 is much higher - but nowhere near as high as in something like a manufacturing, agricultural, or driving occupation. Picking a random state (WV) an unlicensed architecture staff person costs the employer $0.13 in worker's comp for every $100 in earnings, while the architect costs the employer $0.49 per $100. It works similarly for the firm's E&O insurance - the insurer's rates are based on risk class and the architect's role is usually considered to pose more risk to the firm.
Everyday Architect
Oct 17, 19 5:09 pm
Thanks for the input Threesleeve and Bloopox. It seems counter intuitive though that a licensed professional doing the work that they are licensed to do is more risky than having an unlicensed person doing that same work. I supposed that is probably the reasoning behind the insurance provider's advice that unlicensed personnel are not to do that work unsupervised though.
OddArchitect
Oct 17, 19 5:16 pm
Interesting information!
OddArchitect
Oct 17, 19 5:17 pm
So Bubbles, I take it you sign drawings in all three states you're licensed in? Are you a partner?
Bench
Oct 18, 19 4:56 pm
Rick. This is not about the finer points of what an unlicensed person can do.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 17, 19 1:54 pm
Unless the contract explicitly stated (or required) that all staff be licensed, as long as the firm is legally offering architectural services and there is a licensed professional on staff taking responsibility for the drawings, then the client has no basis to sue. But that's a separate topic.
Everyday Architect
Oct 17, 19 2:12 pm
You can read about the suit in the links I provided.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 17, 19 1:56 pm
The issue still is that it really does not matter who is licensed or not, if only the principal is singing and sealing the drawings. I would love it if the project architects were required to sign and seal their own work in conjunction with the principal, but that gets complicated.
Everyday Architect
Oct 17, 19 2:17 pm
My point is that I think it does matter to some extent that staff working on a project is licensed for reasons beyond the singular focus of who is signing and sealing the drawings. Of course, all of this is not really the central issue of the thread.
Koww
Oct 17, 19 7:46 pm
More info regarding the question. I have a lot of experience that has to be declared as "Other" setting in some states because my company doesn't officially provide "Architectural services" ... however my understanding is that all these hours can be considered an Architectural setting if the state doesn't care, e.g. California and I can get a license from CA even though I live in another state. I'm trying to find out if I get registered in CA sometime down the line I need to get experience work in a proper Architecture office to satisfy the hours for other state's experience requirements. It's interesting that the title Project Architect requires license in that state. I didn't know that.
SpontaneousCombustion
Oct 17, 19 7:53 pm
Yes, you could get licensed in a state that will accept your current experience, and then get licensed in your own state sometime in the future when you have experience that will satisfy your own state's requirements. Being licensed in CA (or anywhere) might help you in terms of your resume. It won't help you though in being allowed to call yourself an architect in your own state or being allowed to stamp projects that require an architect in your own state. There could be other issues, such as the insurance limitations that others mentioned, and the inability of some firms in some states to use you on some projects - such as the QSB public project scenario.
Everyday Architect
Oct 18, 19 2:47 am
Correct me if I’m wrong, but California requires completion of AXP or the AXP portfolio to meet experience requirements. Both methods require a minimum amount of time spent in practice setting A. Practice setting A is work done while under direct supervision of an architect for a firm that is engaged in the lawful practice of architecture. NCARB lets the jurisdictions define what lawful practice of architecture is though. Are you saying that CA defines the lawful practice of architecture such that they allow the practice to be done in firms that don’t provide architectural services? I’m not really sure how you’ve found a way around this requirement otherwise. Or do you have enough experience under setting A to meet the minimum requirements already?
atelier nobody
Oct 18, 19 2:12 pm
EA - you are correct, CA requires the AXP.
atelier nobody
Oct 18, 19 2:50 pm
The California education and/or experience requirements are a little complex (see https://www.cab.ca.gov/act/ccr/title_16/division_2/article_3/section_117.shtml), but, briefly, 1/2 credit is granted for work as, or under, a civil or structural engineer, a general contractor, or a building official, with capped maximums. Teaching in an accredited architecture program is worth a maximum of 1 year credit. Other than those, all work experience must be under a licensed architect. My year and a half in an interior design firm didn’t count, and my 3 years in the building department only counted for 1 year total. There is also a requirement that you have at least 1 full year under a licensed architect, even if stacking your other education and experience “credits” would otherwise add up to the total required.
Experience as an independent unlicensed building designer is very specifically excluded.
atelier nobody
Oct 18, 19 5:01 pm
You're well on top of it, Rick - it's the OP who seems to need some educating.
Everyday Architect
Oct 18, 19 5:42 pm
.
Fivescore
Oct 18, 19 5:54 pm
I do normally ignore RB, and sometimes wonder whether anyone doesn't. The threads he gets into turn into a sea of "RB is ignored by you", but the posts by anyone else in the thread just go on around those and don't seem to be responses to him. Maybe he's talking to himself and doesn't know it. Or maybe he's talking to himself and does know it?
Everyday Architect
Oct 18, 19 6:46 pm
While I like the ability and the option to ignore people on the site, I try not to use it. This thread, however, was enough to temporarily push me over to the other side. It wasn't so much that I couldn't just ignore what Rick was writing ... rather like the image says, it just made things easier to read. Who knows? I may end up liking it so much I keep things this way.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 18, 19 7:30 pm
So we have a junior (entry level) person who started working at my firm. This person graduated with a 5-year BS in architecture, with the last year being a work-experience year. I gotta tell you- this person is soo green; has absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. Doesn't even know standard stud sizes.
SO:
I think for starters, we ought to eliminate all non-professional architectural programs.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 18, 19 9:16 pm
huh? Rick- I'm this person's boss.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 18, 19 9:16 pm
huh? Rick- I'm this person's boss.
BulgarBlogger
Oct 18, 19 9:18 pm
Beyond that- I have noticed that on aberage, the quality of students from B.Arch programs is wayy better than those who graduate with a BS. Why? It probably has something to do with the level of focus abd rigour that comes along with why you pursue a professional degree to begin with.
Among architects, does anyone care what state you get initially get licensed? bc some have more loose requirements.
Short answer, no one cares.
The test for architectural licensture is the same in every state. A few states will have an additional test due to unique conditions (FL, CA, NY, I think). I could be incorrect about the states requiring an additional exam.
If you graduated from an accredited architectural program then once you obtain your first state license you can become licensed in any state by simply applying and paying the fee with no additional testing (except for the states listed above of course).
As far as I know if you do not have an accredited architectural degree then once you finish a longer IDP process you will only be licensed in the state you took your exam in. If you want to become licensed in another state you have to replete your IDP over again for that state. The years of IDP differ depending on your education, experience, and state you're applying to. However I believe it's a minimum of ten years per state license. I think only 14 states allow you to obtain an architectural license without attending an accredited architectural program.
No, within reason. It might look weird if you work for someone who does all their work in California and you're getting your license in West Virginia or something. Aside from that, if you are looking to later get reciprocity in another state you might run into some issues, but it's hard to say exactly without knowing more about your situation.
Everyday Architect: "if you are looking to later get reciprocity in another state you might run into some issues"
THIS^
I got my license without a degree, in a state where that still works (CA), and reciprocity requirements are different in just about every state, with some states where I can't get reciprocity at all.
Do you mean without an architectural degree or any degree?
I have a humanities degree, but it wouldn't have made a difference if I didn't (or only a small difference - an unrelated degree is worth 6 mos credit, IIRC).
This is why I hinted that more information would be useful to understanding the OP's particular situation. I'm not trying to imply this is what you were trying to achieve atelier nobody, but your situation is a good example of how you can't really get around the base requirements in some jurisdictions just because you got a license somewhere else.
IIRC, Ricky looked into this at one point because the thought was he could get licensed in CA, or even WA(?), without an accredited architecture degree, and then get licensed in OR through reciprocity. Turns out OR still wouldn't allow him to get a license without the degree. I may be wrong on the details though.
EA - I just wanted to give a concrete example of what you meant by needing more information. Also, you are correct about OR - no degree, no reciprocity.
My license is through NY (no additional exams needed btw) and NY still allows experience in lieu of a professional degree as well. I'm nervous about eventually needing reciprocity as I have a pre-professional but got the rest of my credits towards licensure through experience. :-/
In your situation you do not have reciprocity and you license is only good in NY.
thatsthat - There is now a way for us non-degree guys to get NCARB certified. I believe (but I could be wrong) that with NCARB we'd be golden in every state.
https://www.ncarb.org/blog/explore-our-education-alternative-ncarb-certification-0
Sounds like you need to have an undergrad degree in architecture to qualify. Still that's really nice!
atelier nobody - Yep! I looked at this a few years ago, but for me personally, it's a lot of money for something that I might need, but don't need right now. I think you have to check with the state you plan to move to to make sure they would even accept this path. I don't think every state accepts it. Idk about you, but I have family in another state, and it would be nice to be able to practice there if I ever need to move one day.
You're right TT, I just read that not all jurisdictions accept the method linked above. Bummer.
I called NCARB about six months ago and they said that with an NCARB certificate that reciprocity from another state into Oregon without a NAAB accredited degree is a matter of applying for reciprocity and "there would be no issues" ... however, I believe there is a disconnect with the Oregon board and NCARB. From what I remember, when I talked to the Oregon board, the answer I got was "reviewed on a case-by-case basis".
In my experience, NCARB has never been up-to-date or correct about all states' requirements.
Yes it matters. NCARB summarizes all here. https://www.ncarb.org/get-lice...
It really only matters if you don't have an accredited degree.
It depends on what you mean by "does anyone care".
If you're asking if there's some sort of prestige associated with originally getting licensed in one state vs. another: then no, not at all. Most other architects are never going to even know or ask in which state you were initially licensed.
If you mean is having a license in any state good enough, for job hunting purposes in any other state, or for seniority in a firm or something like that: it depends on the firm, and what kind of work they do. If they're looking for a licensed architect simply because they feel that having a license is evidence of some level of experience and/or competency, then any state's license is as good as any other. But if they do public projects in a state with QBS (where they get points taken off in the selection process for each team member who is missing specific credentials) then it matters a lot that you have a license in the applicable state(s). Or if they want to be able to call you "Project Architect" or some other protected title, then you need a license in the state(s) where they practice. Or if you're on the succession track to partnership, or if you're in some role in a non-architect-owned company where you need to be able to stamp drawings, or whatever... then it may matter tremendously that you are licensed (or able to get reciprocity) in that state.
If you mean does any state's license automatically make you eligible for reciprocity in any other state: as others have said above, in most cases no, you need to meet each individual state's rules.
To be fair though if you graduated with an accredited degree in architecture, finished your IDP, and passed the ARE you gain reciprocity in all 50 states.
Not necessarily. There are lots of types of experience and settings that count toward IDP/AXP as far as NCARB is concerned, but don't necessarily count toward certain states' requirements. I had to wait to get reciprocity in NY, and submit additional work experience, even when I already had an NCARB certificate, licenses in 2 states, an M.Arch from an NAAB-accredited school, had completed IDP and the ARE - because some of the experience I had used to satisfy IDP was partially completed during my student years, and NY doesn't accept that. There are states where an NCARB certificate pretty much gets you rubber-stamp-reciprocity with no second glance, and others where it's not a guarantee that state-specific rules still won't trip you up when they look at your NCARB record, because they have different minimum IDP/AXP durations, different allowed training settings, different starting points, etc.
Good point. I forgot about the student IDP/AXP.
if there isn't any compelling reason to license in your current state, I'd recommend looking into the annual continuing education requirement and renewal fees, and go for somewhere that keeps both to a minimum. simplify your future life.
Would be interesting to hear more about the OP's situation and why they are asking the question.
It doesn't matter if you're not signing and sealing anything.
What an asinine comment.
asinine or not- true. What the hell do I care what state you are registered in if am signing and sealing your work? As long as your follow the respective codes and zoning regulations of the state in which the project is located- you're just a hired hand.
Sigh, spoken like someone who just works in production . . .
The firm I was at when I got my license gave me a healthy bonus and raise, despite my not signing drawings. My current job requires me to be licensed, even though I don't sign drawings. But, y'know, you do you...
Same here. Also once licensed my work and bio was included in proposals.
What practical reason do you have to be licensed in other states, unless you are signing and sealing drawings? I'll gice you an example: I'm licensed in NYS; I can easily get a reciprocal license in NJ. I don't know anything about the code, zoning regulations, or permitting in NJ, but NY has reciprocal licensure agreements with NJ anyway. The point I am making is that licensed or not, if you're working for a firm in which you are not signing and sealing drawings, being licensed in multiple states means nothing unless you know HOW to practice in those states.
What practical reason do you have to be licensed in other states, unless you are signing and sealing drawings? I'll gice you an example: I'm licensed in NYS; I can easily get a reciprocal license in NJ. I don't know anything about the code, zoning regulations, or permitting in NJ, but NY has reciprocal licensure agreements with NJ anyway. The point I am making is that licensed or not, if you're working for a firm in which you are not signing and sealing drawings, being licensed in multiple states means nothing unless you know HOW to practice in those states.
Also- I disagree with your statement about someone being in production. Designers are in this position all the time, especially in big corporate firms. They let the technical department deal with all the permitting issues. However, I absolutely agree with your other point: getting licensed in multiple states only looks good on a resume, but I said, unless you're the one taking responsibility for the work, it is meaningless.
The state where we do most of our work has a "quality-based selection" (QBS) protocol for publicly-funded projects, with a point system that gives or takes away points based partly on the credentials of the teams presented in the proposals. We do a lot of those types of projects, and typically the licenses and certifications of all the architects and consultants take up many pages of each proposal. We have staff who are unlicensed or who can't get reciprocity here because of not having an accredited degree, but they're pretty much limited to behind-the-scenes roles, because we can't have any of the client-facing people who have to be named in the proposal (like project managers, project architects, lead designers, or even spec writers or various types of project-specific specialists) who aren't licensed in this state.
I would bet the majority of architects do not do publicly-funded work. My statement is still valid for privately-funded projects.
This can be true however I've seen a lot of privately funded projects require anyone on the design team to be licensed.
Personally I could not see the point in pursuing a degree in architecture and not becoming licensed. It's a waste of time, talent, opportunities, and personal finical gain. Keep in mind I'm coming from the viewpoint of working in small to medium sized firms where team members do a bit of everything, including signing drawings.
Chad Miller- I agree on a personal level. However, practically, if I am the principal of a firm, I'm the only one who is stamping drawings. Whether my team is licensed or not, I don't really care as long as they are affording me the same standard of care I would take if I did the work on my own.
Practically, isn't there some incentive for a firm to have more licensed architects on staff? I've heard that it can lower the insurance premiums you pay ... but I don't have any direct knowledge of this to know if it's true. There was at least one news article from a while back about how a firm was being sued because the client understood that licensed architects were working on their project when in fact most of the staff was unlicensed. That is arguably more a case of misrepresentation than one of need for staff to be licensed though ... but having the licensed staff would have avoided it altogether. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
Case wasn't exactly as I described above but here are some references...
Archinect write up: https://archinect.com/news/article/128095662/college-wins-5-5mm-lawsuit-against-firm-for-use-of-unlicensed-architects (link to original article questionable).
Write-up on the case in an ABA newsletter (see pages 5-6): https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/under_construction/UnderConst_v17n3_win2016.pdf
With all the protesting I'm starting to think that Bubbles isn't licensed and / or can't become licensed.
Everyday Architect: in most cases insurance costs rise when a firm has more licensed staff - because each licensed person is someone who can be out in the field implementing independent judgment. The firm's worker's comp also rises for each licensed person (I don't know if it's the same in all regions, but here it more than doubles). Licensed professionals are categorized differently than unlicensed drafter/production staff, because they have a higher rate of job-related accidents/illnesses - probably partly because they're out in the field more, and also because statistically they're older, on average, as a group.
These increased costs aren't really so huge that they'd likely be much incentive for a firm to want to keep people from getting licensed though. And if you're a firm that heeds your insurance company's advice, you're not supposed to ever send unlicensed people to a job site unsupervised, or even allow them to attend any meetings on their own during bidding or CA, so deciding not to get a license can drastically limit what you can do in many firms, and your perceived usefulness.
I am licensed in NYS, CA, HI
3Sleeve - yes the worker's comp assigned risk rates vary by state, and in some states by metro region. But most states all use the same class codes. A licensed architect is class 8601, and most firms put all the unlicensed people in 8603 no matter what their title is. That category includes all sorts of clerical workers including CAD and other technical office staff, and pretty much anything you'd find in an architecture firm that's "not otherwise categorized". 8603 is considered very low risk, and 8601 is much higher - but nowhere near as high as in something like a manufacturing, agricultural, or driving occupation. Picking a random state (WV) an unlicensed architecture staff person costs the employer $0.13 in worker's comp for every $100 in earnings, while the architect costs the employer $0.49 per $100. It works similarly for the firm's E&O insurance - the insurer's rates are based on risk class and the architect's role is usually considered to pose more risk to the firm.
Thanks for the input Threesleeve and Bloopox. It seems counter intuitive though that a licensed professional doing the work that they are licensed to do is more risky than having an unlicensed person doing that same work. I supposed that is probably the reasoning behind the insurance provider's advice that unlicensed personnel are not to do that work unsupervised though.
Interesting information!
So Bubbles, I take it you sign drawings in all three states you're licensed in? Are you a partner?
Rick. This is not about the finer points of what an unlicensed person can do.
Unless the contract explicitly stated (or required) that all staff be licensed, as long as the firm is legally offering architectural services and there is a licensed professional on staff taking responsibility for the drawings, then the client has no basis to sue. But that's a separate topic.
You can read about the suit in the links I provided.
The issue still is that it really does not matter who is licensed or not, if only the principal is singing and sealing the drawings. I would love it if the project architects were required to sign and seal their own work in conjunction with the principal, but that gets complicated.
My point is that I think it does matter to some extent that staff working on a project is licensed for reasons beyond the singular focus of who is signing and sealing the drawings. Of course, all of this is not really the central issue of the thread.
More info regarding the question. I have a lot of experience that has to be declared as "Other" setting in some states because my company doesn't officially provide "Architectural services" ... however my understanding is that all these hours can be considered an Architectural setting if the state doesn't care, e.g. California and I can get a license from CA even though I live in another state. I'm trying to find out if I get registered in CA sometime down the line I need to get experience work in a proper Architecture office to satisfy the hours for other state's experience requirements. It's interesting that the title Project Architect requires license in that state. I didn't know that.
Yes, you could get licensed in a state that will accept your current experience, and then get licensed in your own state sometime in the future when you have experience that will satisfy your own state's requirements. Being licensed in CA (or anywhere) might help you in terms of your resume. It won't help you though in being allowed to call yourself an architect in your own state or being allowed to stamp projects that require an architect in your own state. There could be other issues, such as the insurance limitations that others mentioned, and the inability of some firms in some states to use you on some projects - such as the QSB public project scenario.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but California requires completion of AXP or the AXP portfolio to meet experience requirements. Both methods require a minimum amount of time spent in practice setting A. Practice setting A is work done while under direct supervision of an architect for a firm that is engaged in the lawful practice of architecture. NCARB lets the jurisdictions define what lawful practice of architecture is though. Are you saying that CA defines the lawful practice of architecture such that they allow the practice to be done in firms that don’t provide architectural services? I’m not really sure how you’ve found a way around this requirement otherwise. Or do you have enough experience under setting A to meet the minimum requirements already?
EA - you are correct, CA requires the AXP.
The California education and/or experience requirements are a little complex (see https://www.cab.ca.gov/act/ccr/title_16/division_2/article_3/section_117.shtml), but, briefly, 1/2 credit is granted for work as, or under, a civil or structural engineer, a general contractor, or a building official, with capped maximums. Teaching in an accredited architecture program is worth a maximum of 1 year credit. Other than those, all work experience must be under a licensed architect. My year and a half in an interior design firm didn’t count, and my 3 years in the building department only counted for 1 year total. There is also a requirement that you have at least 1 full year under a licensed architect, even if stacking your other education and experience “credits” would otherwise add up to the total required.
Experience as an independent unlicensed building designer is very specifically excluded.
You're well on top of it, Rick - it's the OP who seems to need some educating.
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I do normally ignore RB, and sometimes wonder whether anyone doesn't. The threads he gets into turn into a sea of "RB is ignored by you", but the posts by anyone else in the thread just go on around those and don't seem to be responses to him. Maybe he's talking to himself and doesn't know it. Or maybe he's talking to himself and does know it?
While I like the ability and the option to ignore people on the site, I try not to use it. This thread, however, was enough to temporarily push me over to the other side. It wasn't so much that I couldn't just ignore what Rick was writing ... rather like the image says, it just made things easier to read. Who knows? I may end up liking it so much I keep things this way.
So we have a junior (entry level) person who started working at my firm. This person graduated with a 5-year BS in architecture, with the last year being a work-experience year. I gotta tell you- this person is soo green; has absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. Doesn't even know standard stud sizes.
SO:
I think for starters, we ought to eliminate all non-professional architectural programs.
huh? Rick- I'm this person's boss.
huh? Rick- I'm this person's boss.
Beyond that- I have noticed that on aberage, the quality of students from B.Arch programs is wayy better than those who graduate with a BS. Why? It probably has something to do with the level of focus abd rigour that comes along with why you pursue a professional degree to begin with.