I'll try to keep this quick. I'm an Architect that left the commercial world (50k SF+ projects) and is working to build up a residential practice. I'm doing some fill-in work here and there while I get my legs under me, and have some really small commercial work that's landed in my lap. It all seems pretty easy, but I'm struggling with what a typical project delivery looks like at this scale.
Question is this: I'm helping a developer client put a pergola on a free standing restaurant building. He wants it quick and dirty and so do I (this isn't the type of work I want to do, but I'd like to learn how to do small projects like this to help fill the gaps when it makes sense). Typically I would call up my go-to MEP consultant and get a proposal, but is this the kind of project where the GC's sub will provide these design services as needed? We're talking about a few string lights and ceiling fans. Is there a specification section I can include that would cover this as some type of deferred submittal? I'll have the same question with STRL probably (depending on whether we go with some kind of turnkey system or not).
I've got a call into my engineer to pick his brain (and I realize there's likely some variation from jurisdiction to jurisdiction), but wondering in general what the Archinect hive mind thinks.
Many thanks in advance. XOXO
poop876
Jul 1, 19 3:19 pm
I'm assuming they are putting that pergola so they can occupy the roof? You ought to have a structural engineer for sure as the now you will be having 100 lbs live load on that roof.
Non Sequitur
Jul 1, 19 3:25 pm
that, plus potential egress issues.
tomsmith18555
Jul 1, 19 3:27 pm
No, it's an existing, adjacent patio that they want to cover with a new pergola. We're talking 1000% grade A architecture here.
Sorry -- reading my original post that wasn't very clear. Nothing going on the roof of the existing building.
poop876
Jul 1, 19 3:47 pm
Oh okay. Is it sprinklered? Now the outdoor roof structure should be same construction type and sprinklered if the space already is!
tomsmith18555
Jul 1, 19 6:11 pm
Existing building is not currently sprinklered. Good point on construction type and compatibility
.I appreciate your replies.
atelier nobody
Jul 1, 19 3:38 pm
For a project of that type and sized, I would not expect to see an electrical engineer or any electrical drawings other than showing the light fixtures on the architectural.
I would not expect to need any structural design or calcs unless you are in a high seismic or high wind location.
poop876
Jul 1, 19 3:49 pm
You got snow loads, point loads, uplift, roof penetrations...
Miles Jaffe
Jul 1, 19 4:30 pm
Totally different animal from what you are used to.
Basically the electrician needs to know what lights go where. This is solved with a simple design sketch with a few dimensions and light/fan specs. No detail drawings, structural conditions, electrical specs, CYA boilerplate, etc. It is not a construction document, just a proposed design concept. Permitting / construction / etc. by the developer-builder if they choose to proceed. Alternatively you can be engaged for additional services (detailed construction docs, CA) if and as required for additional fees.
Obviously you need to address health/safety/code and identify potential liability problems, but the latter is essentially a black hole. The developer is looking for fast and cheap, not a lawsuit.
tomsmith18555
Jul 1, 19 7:38 pm
I am going to summarize in my own words to be sure I understand what you’re suggesting, Miles… essentially there are two paths:
Path 1: I provide a dimensioned conceptual layout, elevations, lighting plan, etc. Goal is only to convey the design intent only. I’ll vet the HSW/code concerns, but do not provide life safety plan, structural information, etc. These unstamped drawings get handed off to a design/build contractor who handles any required design/documentation for permitting, pricing, and ultimate construction.
Path 2: I produce the same conceptual design as path 1, but provide stamped drawings required for permit/construction. I think this shakes out as updated life safety plan, dimensioned plans, elevations, construction details, structural design (by consultant), MEP coordination plan (ultimately MEP is design-build by sub), and any CYA necessary to wrap up.
Hope this isn't annoying to hear me think outloud, but I appreciate your response.
tomsmith18555
Jul 1, 19 7:40 pm
Sorry the formatting is atrocious. I can't figure out how to do returns... maybe that's not possible. Thanks again.
Miles Jaffe
Jul 2, 19 3:23 pm
You got it. Be aware that a common ploy is to extend your services while maintaining the original fee. Proto summed it up succinctly below.
[paragraph] Stupid forum design, you have to edit a reply to format it, but some mobile platforms won’t let you.
thisisnotmyname
Jul 1, 19 5:31 pm
At the scale described, we often do design/build electrical. You provide power, low voltage, and lighting locations and fixture selections to an electrical contractor, who then goes about getting a permit. If it needs and engineer's (P.E.'s) stamp for permitting, the contractor is responsible for getting that. Many commercial electrical contractors have a go to P.E. that will review and stamp for them at a very modest cost.
Also, quick and dirty works best if your specified light fixtures are inexpensive and either an in-stock or quick-ship item.
tomsmith18555
Jul 1, 19 6:13 pm
Do you provide any specific direction or specification to clarify that it's design/build electrical? Appreciate your reply.
thisisnotmyname
Jul 1, 19 7:18 pm
Absolutely, we write the design-build delivery of MEP into the Owner-Architect agreement, note it on the first page of the drawing set, and note it again on any drawings where MEP things appear.
proto
Jul 1, 19 7:53 pm
As long as it's by-rights development, think SD level documentation
Hi everyone,
I'll try to keep this quick. I'm an Architect that left the commercial world (50k SF+ projects) and is working to build up a residential practice. I'm doing some fill-in work here and there while I get my legs under me, and have some really small commercial work that's landed in my lap. It all seems pretty easy, but I'm struggling with what a typical project delivery looks like at this scale.
Question is this: I'm helping a developer client put a pergola on a free standing restaurant building. He wants it quick and dirty and so do I (this isn't the type of work I want to do, but I'd like to learn how to do small projects like this to help fill the gaps when it makes sense). Typically I would call up my go-to MEP consultant and get a proposal, but is this the kind of project where the GC's sub will provide these design services as needed? We're talking about a few string lights and ceiling fans. Is there a specification section I can include that would cover this as some type of deferred submittal? I'll have the same question with STRL probably (depending on whether we go with some kind of turnkey system or not).
I've got a call into my engineer to pick his brain (and I realize there's likely some variation from jurisdiction to jurisdiction), but wondering in general what the Archinect hive mind thinks.
Many thanks in advance. XOXO
I'm assuming they are putting that pergola so they can occupy the roof? You ought to have a structural engineer for sure as the now you will be having 100 lbs live load on that roof.
that, plus potential egress issues.
No, it's an existing, adjacent patio that they want to cover with a new pergola. We're talking 1000% grade A architecture here.
Sorry -- reading my original post that wasn't very clear. Nothing going on the roof of the existing building.
Oh okay. Is it sprinklered? Now the outdoor roof structure should be same construction type and sprinklered if the space already is!
Existing building is not currently sprinklered. Good point on construction type and compatibility .I appreciate your replies.
For a project of that type and sized, I would not expect to see an electrical engineer or any electrical drawings other than showing the light fixtures on the architectural.
I would not expect to need any structural design or calcs unless you are in a high seismic or high wind location.
You got snow loads, point loads, uplift, roof penetrations...
Totally different animal from what you are used to.
Basically the electrician needs to know what lights go where. This is solved with a simple design sketch with a few dimensions and light/fan specs. No detail drawings, structural conditions, electrical specs, CYA boilerplate, etc. It is not a construction document, just a proposed design concept. Permitting / construction / etc. by the developer-builder if they choose to proceed. Alternatively you can be engaged for additional services (detailed construction docs, CA) if and as required for additional fees.
Obviously you need to address health/safety/code and identify potential liability problems, but the latter is essentially a black hole. The developer is looking for fast and cheap, not a lawsuit.
I am going to summarize in my own words to be sure I understand what you’re suggesting, Miles… essentially there are two paths: Path 1: I provide a dimensioned conceptual layout, elevations, lighting plan, etc. Goal is only to convey the design intent only. I’ll vet the HSW/code concerns, but do not provide life safety plan, structural information, etc. These unstamped drawings get handed off to a design/build contractor who handles any required design/documentation for permitting, pricing, and ultimate construction. Path 2: I produce the same conceptual design as path 1, but provide stamped drawings required for permit/construction. I think this shakes out as updated life safety plan, dimensioned plans, elevations, construction details, structural design (by consultant), MEP coordination plan (ultimately MEP is design-build by sub), and any CYA necessary to wrap up. Hope this isn't annoying to hear me think outloud, but I appreciate your response.
Sorry the formatting is atrocious. I can't figure out how to do returns... maybe that's not possible. Thanks again.
You got it. Be aware that a common ploy is to extend your services while maintaining the original fee. Proto summed it up succinctly below.
[paragraph] Stupid forum design, you have to edit a reply to format it, but some mobile platforms won’t let you.
At the scale described, we often do design/build electrical. You provide power, low voltage, and lighting locations and fixture selections to an electrical contractor, who then goes about getting a permit. If it needs and engineer's (P.E.'s) stamp for permitting, the contractor is responsible for getting that. Many commercial electrical contractors have a go to P.E. that will review and stamp for them at a very modest cost.
Also, quick and dirty works best if your specified light fixtures are inexpensive and either an in-stock or quick-ship item.
Do you provide any specific direction or specification to clarify that it's design/build electrical? Appreciate your reply.
Absolutely, we write the design-build delivery of MEP into the Owner-Architect agreement, note it on the first page of the drawing set, and note it again on any drawings where MEP things appear.
As long as it's by-rights development, think SD level documentation
Then, the owner & GC will run with it
Owner may ask for a pretty picture too