In our experience most architecture offices claim they are collaborative and creative... when they actually aren't. at least, not when it comes to their own staff. upper management disregards the ideas junior staff put forward (ideas ranging from office management to design)
it feels counterintuitive to what our profession is supposed to be about.
Rusty!
Jan 29, 19 1:43 pm
20 minutes into your podcast and it has been about eating donkeys. I give up.
"Collaborative" monicker is about interdisciplinary coordination that promises flat structure of "shareholders" over the traditional concept of prime contracts and consultants. Nothing to do with junior staff wanting to eat donkey meat on Friday nights.
randomised
Jan 29, 19 2:56 pm
Is eating donkey meat a thing now?
Rusty!
Jan 29, 19 3:05 pm
Listen do the damn podcast rando! Yes it is starting right now.
Non Sequitur
Jan 29, 19 3:05 pm
does it go well with avocado toast?
David Bruce Lee
Jan 30, 19 11:37 am
donkeys should only be eaten with avocado toast. there's not other way.
David Bruce Lee
Jan 30, 19 11:38 am
Rusty! point taken, time stamp for office discussion is 1:08
David Bruce Lee
Jan 30, 19 11:39 am
but i don't thinking collaboration should be understood only to mean business to business relationships. it is often understood as what happens within an office between people.
randomised
Jan 30, 19 11:41 am
But it takes over 74 gallons to grow a pound of avocado (in Cali), not very sustainable if you ask me, and don't forget the links between drug cartels and the avocado mafia south of Trumps proposed wall...
David Bruce Lee
Jan 30, 19 11:53 am
what. it takes 74 gallons for a pound of avocado? sounds like fake news! i suppose we'd be better off
eating it with elephant and not donkey? womp womp
randomised
Jan 30, 19 12:59 pm
Eating donkey on toasted elephant will be the sensible choice here...
Non Sequitur
Jan 30, 19 3:06 pm
Maybe just use the avacado husks as fuel for roasting the donkey and elephant meat. Toss out the yucky green goo.
David Bruce Lee
Jan 31, 19 12:04 pm
Rusty!
Just wanted to let you know that I do actually appreciate you calling me out for the including the episode link in my last post about office collaboration. I was hesitant to include the link, since obviously most of the episode was not about design, and the architecture part of the discussion didn't happen until much later. But, I decided to pull the trigger and include it. Honestly, it was a mistake and misleading. In the future, I will strive to make sure that links I include are more relevant, or at the very least have a time stamp. -David
Peter Normand
Jan 29, 19 2:42 pm
The fact is our professions has been a very ego driven "architect as the singular visionary" profession for a long time, thankfully that is changing. The old school days where people emulate Howard Roark are ending and in larger firms and in the new smaller firms this way of thinking is changing fast Where it is slow to change is the medium firms started in in the 80s and 90s where the letters on the door correspond to folks who still keep office hours, these firms will hold on to whatever old school thinking and ways of doing things until they absolutely have to change.
Some folks in architectural firms view design as a privilege and they guard it jealously. This can be frustrating at any phase of your career. I often see the phrase "corroborative work environment" listed as an enticement to potential recruits.
On the other-hand a bad idea is a bad idea, and it can be exhausting to have to give a justification for declining each and every suggestion.
Over and OUT
Peter N
thisisnotmyname
Jan 29, 19 4:53 pm
On the flipside, you have firms where the old principals use all of the young people's design ideas and then soak up all the credit for themselves when it comes time for awards and publications.
bowling_ball
Jan 29, 19 10:06 pm
As it should be, more or less. Until your name is on the door, you don't own any of the ideas or production within the office.
randomised
Jan 30, 19 3:00 am
If you work in an office that's how it works, you're paid to provide them with your design ideas and they'll get the credits for providing you the environment in which you could come up with them, you hand that over the moment you signed a contract. A decent boss will acknowledge your efforts though.
zonker
Jan 29, 19 8:02 pm
On the flipside, you have firms where the old principals use all of the young people's design ideas and then soak up all the credit for themselves when it comes time for awards and publications.
Yes and No, Aren't they not taking responsibility for your ideas? whose stamp? there's the liability side - My wowie zowie balcony springs a leak and who gets sued?
will galloway
Jan 30, 19 7:02 pm
Donkeys aside, it could also be that the younger staff are just over-confident and dont know their ideas are not that great.
Not sure what collaboration means, really. I guess it could mean working as a group, but what office doesnt? That an idea can be taken/stolen/captured by someone in management is kind of hard to comprehend. In architecture the idea is barely 10% of the project, if that. Ive seen lots of great ideas come out shit when built because the office wasnt set up to make good decisions in the process of turning idea into reality. Also seen modest ideas turned into amazing projects because the office could deal with it. Design is a process more than it is a single moment of insight.
There is an idea about the genius architect, but actual genius in our field is about getting all the bits together so the outcome meets the potential. The starchitects are all amazingly good at that. The better ones seem to be able to scale the process somehow, without losing their own vision. That is a kind of collaboration I suppose.
Collaboration of that sort is different from collaborating with clients and hearing the under-served. I would not be surprised if an office that works well with others is set up rigidly internally, because that is how it stays coherent with the output.
David Bruce Lee
Jan 31, 19 12:06 pm
I totally agree. One issue for sure is 'collaboration' is really not often defined. And gets used as a marketing tool. being 'collaborative' sounds good and perhaps even trendy. This is a problem, because many offices are not nearly as open to new or different ideas as they preach to be.
David Bruce Lee
Jan 31, 19 12:08 pm
And definitely a lot of young designers have shit ideas and then whine about their ideas not being used. still, the office should at least hear them out, or if they are consistently that bad, take them off the design team or let them go.
In our experience most architecture offices claim they are collaborative and creative... when they actually aren't. at least, not when it comes to their own staff. upper management disregards the ideas junior staff put forward (ideas ranging from office management to design)
it feels counterintuitive to what our profession is supposed to be about.
20 minutes into your podcast and it has been about eating donkeys. I give up.
"Collaborative" monicker is about interdisciplinary coordination that promises flat structure of "shareholders" over the traditional concept of prime contracts and consultants. Nothing to do with junior staff wanting to eat donkey meat on Friday nights.
Is eating donkey meat a thing now?
Listen do the damn podcast rando! Yes it is starting right now.
does it go well with avocado toast?
donkeys should only be eaten with avocado toast. there's not other way.
Rusty! point taken, time stamp for office discussion is 1:08
but i don't thinking collaboration should be understood only to mean business to business relationships. it is often understood as what happens within an office between people.
But it takes over 74 gallons to grow a pound of avocado (in Cali), not very sustainable if you ask me, and don't forget the links between drug cartels and the avocado mafia south of Trumps proposed wall...
what. it takes 74 gallons for a pound of avocado? sounds like fake news! i suppose we'd be better off eating it with elephant and not donkey? womp womp
Eating donkey on toasted elephant will be the sensible choice here...
Maybe just use the avacado husks as fuel for roasting the donkey and elephant meat. Toss out the yucky green goo.
Rusty! Just wanted to let you know that I do actually appreciate you calling me out for the including the episode link in my last post about office collaboration. I was hesitant to include the link, since obviously most of the episode was not about design, and the architecture part of the discussion didn't happen until much later. But, I decided to pull the trigger and include it. Honestly, it was a mistake and misleading. In the future, I will strive to make sure that links I include are more relevant, or at the very least have a time stamp. -David
The fact is our professions has been a very ego driven "architect as the singular visionary" profession for a long time, thankfully that is changing. The old school days where people emulate Howard Roark are ending and in larger firms and in the new smaller firms this way of thinking is changing fast Where it is slow to change is the medium firms started in in the 80s and 90s where the letters on the door correspond to folks who still keep office hours, these firms will hold on to whatever old school thinking and ways of doing things until they absolutely have to change.
Some folks in architectural firms view design as a privilege and they guard it jealously. This can be frustrating at any phase of your career. I often see the phrase "corroborative work environment" listed as an enticement to potential recruits.
On the other-hand a bad idea is a bad idea, and it can be exhausting to have to give a justification for declining each and every suggestion.
Over and OUT
Peter N
On the flipside, you have firms where the old principals use all of the young people's design ideas and then soak up all the credit for themselves when it comes time for awards and publications.
As it should be, more or less. Until your name is on the door, you don't own any of the ideas or production within the office.
If you work in an office that's how it works, you're paid to provide them with your design ideas and they'll get the credits for providing you the environment in which you could come up with them, you hand that over the moment you signed a contract. A decent boss will acknowledge your efforts though.
On the flipside, you have firms where the old principals use all of the young people's design ideas and then soak up all the credit for themselves when it comes time for awards and publications.
Yes and No, Aren't they not taking responsibility for your ideas? whose stamp? there's the liability side - My wowie zowie balcony springs a leak and who gets sued?
Donkeys aside, it could also be that the younger staff are just over-confident and dont know their ideas are not that great.
Not sure what collaboration means, really. I guess it could mean working as a group, but what office doesnt? That an idea can be taken/stolen/captured by someone in management is kind of hard to comprehend. In architecture the idea is barely 10% of the project, if that. Ive seen lots of great ideas come out shit when built because the office wasnt set up to make good decisions in the process of turning idea into reality. Also seen modest ideas turned into amazing projects because the office could deal with it. Design is a process more than it is a single moment of insight.
There is an idea about the genius architect, but actual genius in our field is about getting all the bits together so the outcome meets the potential. The starchitects are all amazingly good at that. The better ones seem to be able to scale the process somehow, without losing their own vision. That is a kind of collaboration I suppose.
Collaboration of that sort is different from collaborating with clients and hearing the under-served. I would not be surprised if an office that works well with others is set up rigidly internally, because that is how it stays coherent with the output.
I totally agree. One issue for sure is 'collaboration' is really not often defined. And gets used as a marketing tool. being 'collaborative' sounds good and perhaps even trendy. This is a problem, because many offices are not nearly as open to new or different ideas as they preach to be.
And definitely a lot of young designers have shit ideas and then whine about their ideas not being used. still, the office should at least hear them out, or if they are consistently that bad, take them off the design team or let them go.