I recently sat in a final review for a 3rd year undergraduate design studio. The objective for the final project was very clear and open for an experimental approach. The result of what was pinned-up and presented was just enough to convey the idea. Most physical models were barely finished and drawings lacked basic graphic depth and clarity. Mind you there were the 2-3 strong projects.
I don’t blame the professor as i’m sure he did everything he could on his end and the students had access to all of the latest 3D modeling and drafting programs, along with a laser cutter.
Shortly after the review the professor and i discussed his recent teaching experience, and informed me on how all of the students worked part-time if not full-time jobs. I was very surprised by this as i was not working during that era of my education. Mind you that was about 15 years ago. So is this the norm now for architecture students?
placebeyondthesplines_
Dec 25, 18 11:15 pm
was it a super shitty school?
sntz
Dec 27, 18 4:04 am
The only correlation between shit school and the necessity to work is that there are higher family income levels at top schools.
But there are low income students at the ivies too, and those kids need to self support. In the grand scheme of things, most people globally cannot simply go to college and get supported by their parents, but of course those people have an easier time getting into good schools for a variety of reasons and they are vastly over represented in the field of architecture.
joseffischer
Dec 26, 18 8:24 am
I worked a number of jobs both in undergrad and grad... yeah, it sucks, and your studio grades suffer for it, and you'll have professors take you aside to talk about your potential and your focus and how you need to choose what's important... Then you get your next bill in the mail and you pick up another shift and you ink out a B in studio and you graduate.
With the price of living and college what it is, I would expect the trend to become more common.
Bench
Dec 26, 18 9:05 am
to clarify, were they working in arch offices? Or in standard student jobs (retail/service/etc.)?
lernom
Dec 26, 18 9:55 am
I think it's common not only to the students taking architecture course but also other course. The necessity to spend for college education motivates the students to work while they are studying.
Wilma Buttfit
Dec 26, 18 10:11 am
Maybe they figured out studio isn't all that important and work skills are.
gibbost
Dec 26, 18 10:49 am
I worked retail all thru school. Driven by need--it paid for all my groceries, utilities, & rent. I only took what was necessary for student loans to pay for tuition. I watched others take out thousands more than they needed.
I can only assume it directly affected my studio grades. Looking back, the bigger issue was that I missed out connecting with lots of studio mates. I would work evenings until 11 or 12, and then go up to studio for a few hours to work. Even worse, I would be so tired from maintaining that schedule that I would often skip regular studio hours during the afternoon--which did not sit well with the professors.
But alas, I passed the courses and also assume that learning to balance school + work has made me the architect I am today.
curtkram
Dec 26, 18 11:10 am
i had one of the student type jobs for the school of business and then worked in a pizza place in undergrad. i was a graduate research assistant in grad school. so, yes part time job along with studio. this was around 15 years ago.
Cosmos
Dec 26, 18 11:27 am
@placebyonthe....An accredited program with a solid history. Definitely not ivy school or high-end private.
@bench Also, from what I understand the students worked typical jobs such as retail, restaurant, etc... not related to the industry.
My thought was, since going to college is now a must, due to a high school diploma not being enough for the job market, more folks will go to college understanding the expense of student loans. And one method of keeping the loan in check is to start paying it off immediately.
I’m one of the early generation of students who took out a mess load of student loans to attend undergrad and grad school, without recognizing the financial burden upon graduating. I took school so serious i would sleep in studio and shower in the gym at times knowing that I was going all in with this investment. I have paid off my loans and don’t regret any of my academic decisions. I just think that if you’re going to pursue architecture that it should be taken serious. In fact this goes for any profession. My personal opinion.
If you need to work to attend college then it must be done, i just don’t see how someone is doing themselves a favor by pursuing architecture.
thisisnotmyname
Dec 26, 18 11:35 am
Employed students are not common in my area. We could use student help, but can never find anyone. Our local school is a high-end private and the students don't seem to need jobs during the school year.
natematt
Dec 26, 18 1:09 pm
I think circumstance is important. I absolutely don't regret not working in school. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who are doing it now that I think are making the right choice.
If i could have gotten a field related job while in school that would have been different. If you're in a hot market you can make 2-3x minimum wage working as an intern in your field, at whatever amount of time per week you can manage... that's a pretty good move, even if it costs you a little school time.
When/where I was in undergrad my only option was an 8$ minimum wage job about 10-15 hrs a week, which seemed like more trouble than it was wroth given 1) It had almost no impact on my student loans 2) it took time out of the thing that got me ongoing scholarships, aka actually doing schoolwork.
To be fair to the students who are working in the OPs story, plenty of people don't work through school and still do meh-sht work.
Non Sequitur
Dec 26, 18 1:21 pm
I worked 20-25hr per week in retail during first 3y of undergrad and then 2 half days at an office for the last 2y. However, my studio projects and other course deliverable were at the top of my class. It's not hard to balance both part-time work and quality studio work.
randomised
Dec 26, 18 2:32 pm
Most architecture sucks, so by default most architects and architecture students also suck.
Cosmos
Dec 26, 18 4:03 pm
I think everybody can agree with your outlook in that the majority of the built fabric is comprised of cheap and fast buildings, typically resulting to very poor and straight forward designs. Not sure how that's the default for architects and students.
randomised
Dec 27, 18 7:17 am
That crap architecture is designed by crap architects who were crap students at university.
Bench
Dec 26, 18 5:05 pm
Then I think it’s all context for the student. Many people at my school worked some type of flexible retail during term, with the understanding that studies were priority. Some probably shouldn’t have - they usually figured this out on their own.
I had a paycheque coming in for 4 out of 6 school years thanks to minor-pro sports. The money went a long way, and my profs were understanding of the situation. I actually found the time away really helpful to clear my head, and beers with the guys after just as much so.
Steeplechase
Dec 26, 18 7:56 pm
I was definitely the outlier working in school. I gave up on the 24 hour studio culture half way through as well. I was also a mediocre studio student, but I don’t think it’s because of those.
sntz
Dec 27, 18 4:00 am
Architecture is a bourgeoisie field. Many children can be coddled and allowed to "play" and go 100% on their studio studies because they don't need to worry about supporting themselves during/after college. But every now and then a middle income or even god forbid low income student attempts to study the field and makes this mistake. It really affects you competitve ability, but it is impressive to people who understand it or work in more meritocratic fields (ie, submitting your resume for an adjacent industry where you worked through school AND studied UG Arch is relatively impressive).
I worked 30 hrs a week in an office (not a direct design job, but typical office work like excel) job for 5 years at an ivy undergrad (with a second major to boot). The architecture professors were wholly unsympathetic, studio mates alien to the idea, arch job interviewers puzzled, but it looked great whenever I applied for a job or fellowship or program not in architecture. Of course it was a necessity to finish my UG. In hindsight I probably would have stuck to engineering which is more grounded and went for an MArch once I got comfortable after college with a living wage.
To be completely honest, I understand my comment may seem like it attacks the field of study as a whole because I am essentially putting down the majority of the participants (few people who study UG arch are working class by comparison) but I also think many of the comments in this thread validate my opinion - "obviously the school must be shit if the students have to support themselves" - people really think like this?
Medusa
Dec 27, 18 9:35 am
This is where architecture pedagogy has failed to keep up with the realities of what being a university student means today, as well as with the building industry in general. Schools are still teaching architecture the way it was done when the students were largely wealthy, white, and male, and where the answer to an architectural problem was always to build a glass tower.
randomised
Dec 27, 18 9:46 am
Guess you haven't been in an architecture university recently (+/- 10/15 years)
Funny, on Reddit people complain that they had to work and couldn't put in the same hours as the trust fund kids and thereby having lesser projects while the sentiment here is that people that work during school know how to manage their time better and are more dedicated and somehow have better projects.
Francis Reynon
Dec 27, 18 3:02 pm
I was invited to sit in a crit that seemed oddly similar to yours. It was a final review for a third year UG, with a project brief to design a small loft. Many of the projects were incomplete and we quickly passed through them, and for the ones that stood out, they only seemed to barely scratch the surface. From what I understand, it seems to be a huge problem with time management, as most of the student presented with almost no energy and dark eyes. Oddly enough, the ones that the professor pointed out that currently worked part time during the semester, had the better presentation of the bunch. It’s a matter of work ethic and priorities.
Was your review in Spitzer by any chance?
Cosmos
Dec 27, 18 9:49 pm
Great point regarding time management. Is this a current issue with current students? I also understand that a lot of students today rarely go to the library and rely on internet info. Was this your experience with students? Not sure what Spitzer is.
Marc Miller
Dec 27, 18 3:41 pm
Sadly, it is becoming more common for students to work through school. I can understand and sympathize with them (worked through two degrees), but there are still issues with it.
From my perspective the biggest one is an implicit expectation that because they are working they are supposed to get a pass for the quality of the work. It's not uncommon for them to get upset that their work is receives a poor evaluation because they are not putting in the time required to get the work done. Take the hit and learn the larger lesson.
This also applies to students that are overcommitted in social activities.
sntz
Dec 27, 18 3:52 pm
Comparing necessary work to supports oneself with social activities is so fallatic as to be offensive
Marc Miller
Dec 27, 18 4:04 pm
Agreed.
And to be clear, I'm referring to students expectations and am not suggesting any equivalencies. If I have suggested that I am doing so, that is again not the case.
In the end the phrases "I had to work,"and "I had club meetings" are indeed very different, but are both preceded by similar expectations for better grades because-
You on the guillotine
Dec 27, 18 4:06 pm
the lack of self awareness in this thread is embarrassing
this is why people think so lowly of architects, why they have little to no economic purpose, and lose their jobs to cheap revit farms and property developers
get with the real world
PhenomenalOpacity
Dec 27, 18 4:37 pm
I am a current M.Arch student in the US and work two jobs while attending school full-time. I'm fortunate that both jobs are in the field, so I am gaining practical experience while also attending school. Federal student loans don't even cover the full cost of tuition, let alone the cost of rent, food, transportation, etc. Most of my fellow classmates also work while attending school full-time. I try not to let my jobs affect my studio work, but I have seen it happen to other people.
archi_dude
Dec 27, 18 6:31 pm
Considering that studio prepares you for jack in the profession world....oh no? Architecture school is so off the mark in terms of training to become an architect can you blame these students? I know the argument has been made that it’s meant to train you for more than just a vocational degree would but to put so much effort into something and come out and have the whole industry refer to recent grads as “worthless”, coupled with the fact that this is the ONLY accepted path to licensure in most states. I’d say the education way misses the mark or there is a really ingenious back door group supplying this industry with droves of low paid labor.
I recently sat in a final review for a 3rd year undergraduate design studio. The objective for the final project was very clear and open for an experimental approach. The result of what was pinned-up and presented was just enough to convey the idea. Most physical models were barely finished and drawings lacked basic graphic depth and clarity. Mind you there were the 2-3 strong projects.
I don’t blame the professor as i’m sure he did everything he could on his end and the students had access to all of the latest 3D modeling and drafting programs, along with a laser cutter.
Shortly after the review the professor and i discussed his recent teaching experience, and informed me on how all of the students worked part-time if not full-time jobs. I was very surprised by this as i was not working during that era of my education. Mind you that was about 15 years ago. So is this the norm now for architecture students?
was it a super shitty school?
The only correlation between shit school and the necessity to work is that there are higher family income levels at top schools.
But there are low income students at the ivies too, and those kids need to self support. In the grand scheme of things, most people globally cannot simply go to college and get supported by their parents, but of course those people have an easier time getting into good schools for a variety of reasons and they are vastly over represented in the field of architecture.
I worked a number of jobs both in undergrad and grad... yeah, it sucks, and your studio grades suffer for it, and you'll have professors take you aside to talk about your potential and your focus and how you need to choose what's important... Then you get your next bill in the mail and you pick up another shift and you ink out a B in studio and you graduate.
With the price of living and college what it is, I would expect the trend to become more common.
to clarify, were they working in arch offices? Or in standard student jobs (retail/service/etc.)?
I think it's common not only to the students taking architecture course but also other course. The necessity to spend for college education motivates the students to work while they are studying.
Maybe they figured out studio isn't all that important and work skills are.
I worked retail all thru school. Driven by need--it paid for all my groceries, utilities, & rent. I only took what was necessary for student loans to pay for tuition. I watched others take out thousands more than they needed.
I can only assume it directly affected my studio grades. Looking back, the bigger issue was that I missed out connecting with lots of studio mates. I would work evenings until 11 or 12, and then go up to studio for a few hours to work. Even worse, I would be so tired from maintaining that schedule that I would often skip regular studio hours during the afternoon--which did not sit well with the professors.
But alas, I passed the courses and also assume that learning to balance school + work has made me the architect I am today.
i had one of the student type jobs for the school of business and then worked in a pizza place in undergrad. i was a graduate research assistant in grad school. so, yes part time job along with studio. this was around 15 years ago.
@placebyonthe....An accredited program with a solid history. Definitely not ivy school or high-end private.
@bench Also, from what I understand the students worked typical jobs such as retail, restaurant, etc... not related to the industry.
My thought was, since going to college is now a must, due to a high school diploma not being enough for the job market, more folks will go to college understanding the expense of student loans. And one method of keeping the loan in check is to start paying it off immediately.
I’m one of the early generation of students who took out a mess load of student loans to attend undergrad and grad school, without recognizing the financial burden upon graduating. I took school so serious i would sleep in studio and shower in the gym at times knowing that I was going all in with this investment. I have paid off my loans and don’t regret any of my academic decisions. I just think that if you’re going to pursue architecture that it should be taken serious. In fact this goes for any profession. My personal opinion.
If you need to work to attend college then it must be done, i just don’t see how someone is doing themselves a favor by pursuing architecture.
Employed students are not common in my area. We could use student help, but can never find anyone. Our local school is a high-end private and the students don't seem to need jobs during the school year.
I think circumstance is important. I absolutely don't regret not working in school. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who are doing it now that I think are making the right choice.
If i could have gotten a field related job while in school that would have been different. If you're in a hot market you can make 2-3x minimum wage working as an intern in your field, at whatever amount of time per week you can manage... that's a pretty good move, even if it costs you a little school time.
When/where I was in undergrad my only option was an 8$ minimum wage job about 10-15 hrs a week, which seemed like more trouble than it was wroth given 1) It had almost no impact on my student loans 2) it took time out of the thing that got me ongoing scholarships, aka actually doing schoolwork.
To be fair to the students who are working in the OPs story, plenty of people don't work through school and still do meh-sht work.
I worked 20-25hr per week in retail during first 3y of undergrad and then 2 half days at an office for the last 2y. However, my studio projects and other course deliverable were at the top of my class. It's not hard to balance both part-time work and quality studio work.
Most architecture sucks, so by default most architects and architecture students also suck.
I think everybody can agree with your outlook in that the majority of the built fabric is comprised of cheap and fast buildings, typically resulting to very poor and straight forward designs. Not sure how that's the default for architects and students.
That crap architecture is designed by crap architects who were crap students at university.
Then I think it’s all context for the student. Many people at my school worked some type of flexible retail during term, with the understanding that studies were priority. Some probably shouldn’t have - they usually figured this out on their own.
I had a paycheque coming in for 4 out of 6 school years thanks to minor-pro sports. The money went a long way, and my profs were understanding of the situation. I actually found the time away really helpful to clear my head, and beers with the guys after just as much so.
I was definitely the outlier working in school. I gave up on the 24 hour studio culture half way through as well. I was also a mediocre studio student, but I don’t think it’s because of those.
Architecture is a bourgeoisie field. Many children can be coddled and allowed to "play" and go 100% on their studio studies because they don't need to worry about supporting themselves during/after college. But every now and then a middle income or even god forbid low income student attempts to study the field and makes this mistake. It really affects you competitve ability, but it is impressive to people who understand it or work in more meritocratic fields (ie, submitting your resume for an adjacent industry where you worked through school AND studied UG Arch is relatively impressive).
I worked 30 hrs a week in an office (not a direct design job, but typical office work like excel) job for 5 years at an ivy undergrad (with a second major to boot). The architecture professors were wholly unsympathetic, studio mates alien to the idea, arch job interviewers puzzled, but it looked great whenever I applied for a job or fellowship or program not in architecture. Of course it was a necessity to finish my UG. In hindsight I probably would have stuck to engineering which is more grounded and went for an MArch once I got comfortable after college with a living wage.
To be completely honest, I understand my comment may seem like it attacks the field of study as a whole because I am essentially putting down the majority of the participants (few people who study UG arch are working class by comparison) but I also think many of the comments in this thread validate my opinion - "obviously the school must be shit if the students have to support themselves" - people really think like this?
This is where architecture pedagogy has failed to keep up with the realities of what being a university student means today, as well as with the building industry in general. Schools are still teaching architecture the way it was done when the students were largely wealthy, white, and male, and where the answer to an architectural problem was always to build a glass tower.
Guess you haven't been in an architecture university recently (+/- 10/15 years)
Was this at UTK?
Someone posted this thread kin reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/architecture/comments/a9xx6q/misc_archinect_users_genuinely_baffled_that/?st=JQ7114NS&sh=1d110953
Thread on reddit: ** wish I can edit posts ugh
Funny, on Reddit people complain that they had to work and couldn't put in the same hours as the trust fund kids and thereby having lesser projects while the sentiment here is that people that work during school know how to manage their time better and are more dedicated and somehow have better projects.
I was invited to sit in a crit that seemed oddly similar to yours. It was a final review for a third year UG, with a project brief to design a small loft. Many of the projects were incomplete and we quickly passed through them, and for the ones that stood out, they only seemed to barely scratch the surface. From what I understand, it seems to be a huge problem with time management, as most of the student presented with almost no energy and dark eyes. Oddly enough, the ones that the professor pointed out that currently worked part time during the semester, had the better presentation of the bunch. It’s a matter of work ethic and priorities.
Was your review in Spitzer by any chance?
Great point regarding time management. Is this a current issue with current students? I also understand that a lot of students today rarely go to the library and rely on internet info. Was this your experience with students? Not sure what Spitzer is.
Sadly, it is becoming more common for students to work through school. I can understand and sympathize with them (worked through two degrees), but there are still issues with it.
From my perspective the biggest one is an implicit expectation that because they are working they are supposed to get a pass for the quality of the work. It's not uncommon for them to get upset that their work is receives a poor evaluation because they are not putting in the time required to get the work done. Take the hit and learn the larger lesson.
This also applies to students that are overcommitted in social activities.
Comparing necessary work to supports oneself with social activities is so fallatic as to be offensive
Agreed.
And to be clear, I'm referring to students expectations and am not suggesting any equivalencies. If I have suggested that I am doing so, that is again not the case.
In the end the phrases "I had to work,"and "I had club meetings" are indeed very different, but are both preceded by similar expectations for better grades because-
the lack of self awareness in this thread is embarrassing
this is why people think so lowly of architects, why they have little to no economic purpose, and lose their jobs to cheap revit farms and property developers
get with the real world
I am a current M.Arch student in the US and work two jobs while attending school full-time. I'm fortunate that both jobs are in the field, so I am gaining practical experience while also attending school. Federal student loans don't even cover the full cost of tuition, let alone the cost of rent, food, transportation, etc. Most of my fellow classmates also work while attending school full-time. I try not to let my jobs affect my studio work, but I have seen it happen to other people.
Considering that studio prepares you for jack in the profession world....oh no? Architecture school is so off the mark in terms of training to become an architect can you blame these students? I know the argument has been made that it’s meant to train you for more than just a vocational degree would but to put so much effort into something and come out and have the whole industry refer to recent grads as “worthless”, coupled with the fact that this is the ONLY accepted path to licensure in most states. I’d say the education way misses the mark or there is a really ingenious back door group supplying this industry with droves of low paid labor.