I am in the process of getting an LLC and I need it as soon as possible. I consulted with attorneys but it seems going that route will take a bit longer than going through Legalzoom.com. I've already gone through the process of requesting an LLC on the website but it doesn't feel legit. Perhaps I am wrong.
Does anyone have a positive experience using Legalzoom? Thanks in advance!
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 1:58 pm
Well... an average of 1 star rating on Yelp, with 106 reviews... many of them saying that the things they paid for haven't panned out yet several weeks later - so it doesn't sound as though it's likely to save you that much time in the end. Personally I'd stay away from them.
Your user name suggests you might be in NYC. LLCs for architecture firms aren't allowed in New York state. What type of LLC are you trying to start?
rerenyc
Jun 7, 18 1:59 pm
Good point.
Yes I am in NYC and do know many architects with LLC's.
I am trying to start an LLC to obtain professional liability insurance to stamp drawings. Thoughts?
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 2:04 pm
LLCs are illegal in New York for professional firms. The architects you know who have done it are clueless. You'll get fined if you start one and get caught, and then you'll forever have that asterisk on your record indicating that there's been disciplinary action against you, which looks bad to potential clients, and you'll have to report it every time you apply for reciprocity or renew your NCARB record. Also any employees you hire will have their experience rejected for IDP/AXP because you're an illegal firm type. Just don't do it.
PLLCs are allowed.
rerenyc
Jun 7, 18 2:12 pm
That's strange because I do know some legit, large, well-known offices that have LLC's. I will not name them now if it is illegal.
Also if you google "nyc architecture LLC" you find a long list of results with LLC's.
I suppose I will need to consult my attorney in this matter. Thank you
LLP, RLLP, PLLC, PC, DPC, or Sole Proprietor: Yes.
Yes, get an attorney - one with experience specifically with architecture firms in New York.
No, do not go by what other firms you know (or have googled) have done. They don't know any better, and just haven't been caught yet.
Rusty!
Jun 7, 18 2:32 pm
Large firms establish different corporate entities for different states they do work in. I think LLC can fly in Michigan. 'Incorporated' works for most number of states.
rerenyc
Jun 7, 18 2:39 pm
Thanks a lot for the information. I guess it's fine because my partner and I are both RA's. However, he works out of Viriginia so I don't know how it works there.
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 2:40 pm
"Incorporated" is not specific as to the type of corporation. In several states that is not legal - i.e. a PLLC must specifically use "PLLC" in the title that it registers with the state and on all of its documents.
rerenyc
Jun 7, 18 3:00 pm
Clearly.
thisisnotmyname
Jun 7, 18 3:54 pm
Take a few minutes and go the source. Contact the NYC state board and ask them: "What business structure(s) for architectural practice are permitted in New York State?" And then "Are there restrictions/rule on what the business can be named?"
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 4:06 pm
Rick that's bad advice. An application to register that in NY would be rejected, because it doesn't comply with New York's naming requirements due to punctuation. That's one of the explicitly stated reasons on the literally 23-point list of technicalities on which NY will simply reject the application and in some cases require payment and application all over again. The time and expense of an attorney with NY experience is worth it when you factor in all the ways you can screw this up, most of which will add time and money to the process, and some of which can result in fines and a record of disciplinary action.
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 4:33 pm
It's missing punctuation that's the problem, not the punctuation that you included. More to the point: the original question was about skipping a lawyer and using a do-it-yourself site to register an LLC. The do-it-yourself sites might possibly catch the punctuation thing, but they won't catch things like the architects forming the wrong type of corporation - leaving that to be caught later by the board, which happens all the time in NY. Or, if it doesn't get caught, then the firms end up with employees who can't get licensed because NY rejects architecture experience earned in LLCs. You can see this in various past threads about that issue on this site, written by distraught interns when they find out they need yet another 3 years of experience before they can get licensed in NY. It's easy to say that the applicant should know all the rules, but you can see from the OP's responses that she didn't know some of them - and from your responses that you don't either - and I really don't think that's unusual - NY's rules are not all in one place, and complicated. Incorporating an architecture firm in NY is just not a great do-it-yourself project - there are a lot of pitfalls.
shellarchitect
Jun 7, 18 4:36 pm
Pllc's are commonly listed as simply an LLC in NY. Get a lawyer
kjdt
Jun 7, 18 5:28 pm
NO. See, that's the wrong form. You're really not helping matters, and are potentially confusing people. New York has different incorporation forms for those incorporating under different Articles. What you've linked is the 1203 form, which is different from the 402 form, which is different from the 1503 form, and so forth. If she sends in that form she will get rejected and have to refile - plus the fees are all different, and in this case the $200 fee for the 1203 is higher than the fee for the form she actually needs. In addition to the correct incorporation form, she needs to get a certificate of authority from the Board of Education before she can get the corporation recorded (I know, that sounds wrong, but that's who regulates professional design corporations in NY...) It's a multi-step thing where you have to get the first form from the first department in order to get a certificate from the 2nd, to send back to the 1st. See, it's not a straightforward thing by any means, and linking to forms you're just guessing at isn't useful to anybody who finds this thread in the future either.
shellarchitect
Jun 7, 18 5:48 pm
Step one, call lawyer
shellarchitect
Jun 7, 18 9:18 pm
I'm no expert, but I'll bet there is a lot more than a single form to fill out
Flatfish
Jun 7, 18 7:10 pm
it sounds like she's trying to incorporate in order for her and her partner to be able to get insurance for a project that at least one of them is already working on. If that's the case then time is important. Also there's the issue with the partner working out of state. Also the OP is inexperienced enough that she was about to pay an online service to register an LLC that she didn't know was illegal. Also New York is notorious for retroactively imposed gotcha fines and sanctions. All of those things might make a few hours of lawyer time pay off hugely in the long run. Architects are always bitching about the idiocy committed by DIYers who don't know codes or building science, but then they turn around and try to Be Your Own Lawyer to save $800 or whatever. It's not going to be worth it if your inexperience causes you to waste billable hours, lose projects, not be insured, get fined, or screw over your employees. Any or all of those can happen if you get it wrong.
rerenyc
Jun 7, 18 7:42 pm
Right. My inclination was to hire a lawyer, but since time is of the essence I thought I'd try one last ditch effort to ensure legalzoom wasn't a viable option since it seemed all the young architects I know who started their own firm also considered legalzoom but ended up consulting a lawyer. Maybe I know a bunch of really ignorant young architects, but we all need to start somewhere. Thankfully my attorney is now able to call me tomorrow to give me free initial consultation since I'm already working with him on another matter. I appreciate all of your thoughtful comments.
rerenyc
Jun 8, 18 2:47 pm
What happened to the gentleman who joined us for a brief moment?
rerenyc
Jun 8, 18 2:49 pm
Update: my attorney will set up the PLLC for $750 in 7 days. That's fast enough for me. F-U ILLegalZoom! Thanks for all your informed thoughts.
I am in the process of getting an LLC and I need it as soon as possible. I consulted with attorneys but it seems going that route will take a bit longer than going through Legalzoom.com. I've already gone through the process of requesting an LLC on the website but it doesn't feel legit. Perhaps I am wrong.
Does anyone have a positive experience using Legalzoom? Thanks in advance!
Well... an average of 1 star rating on Yelp, with 106 reviews... many of them saying that the things they paid for haven't panned out yet several weeks later - so it doesn't sound as though it's likely to save you that much time in the end. Personally I'd stay away from them.
Your user name suggests you might be in NYC. LLCs for architecture firms aren't allowed in New York state. What type of LLC are you trying to start?
Good point.
Yes I am in NYC and do know many architects with LLC's.
I am trying to start an LLC to obtain professional liability insurance to stamp drawings. Thoughts?
LLCs are illegal in New York for professional firms. The architects you know who have done it are clueless. You'll get fined if you start one and get caught, and then you'll forever have that asterisk on your record indicating that there's been disciplinary action against you, which looks bad to potential clients, and you'll have to report it every time you apply for reciprocity or renew your NCARB record. Also any employees you hire will have their experience rejected for IDP/AXP because you're an illegal firm type. Just don't do it.
PLLCs are allowed.
That's strange because I do know some legit, large, well-known offices that have LLC's. I will not name them now if it is illegal. Also if you google "nyc architecture LLC" you find a long list of results with LLC's. I suppose I will need to consult my attorney in this matter. Thank you
See the chart of permissible corporate entities: http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/permissible-corporate-entities.pdf
LLC, PA, or LTD: NO.
LLP, RLLP, PLLC, PC, DPC, or Sole Proprietor: Yes.
Yes, get an attorney - one with experience specifically with architecture firms in New York.
No, do not go by what other firms you know (or have googled) have done. They don't know any better, and just haven't been caught yet.
Large firms establish different corporate entities for different states they do work in. I think LLC can fly in Michigan. 'Incorporated' works for most number of states.
Thanks a lot for the information. I guess it's fine because my partner and I are both RA's. However, he works out of Viriginia so I don't know how it works there.
"Incorporated" is not specific as to the type of corporation. In several states that is not legal - i.e. a PLLC must specifically use "PLLC" in the title that it registers with the state and on all of its documents.
Clearly.
Take a few minutes and go the source. Contact the NYC state board and ask them: "What business structure(s) for architectural practice are permitted in New York State?" And then "Are there restrictions/rule on what the business can be named?"
Rick that's bad advice. An application to register that in NY would be rejected, because it doesn't comply with New York's naming requirements due to punctuation. That's one of the explicitly stated reasons on the literally 23-point list of technicalities on which NY will simply reject the application and in some cases require payment and application all over again. The time and expense of an attorney with NY experience is worth it when you factor in all the ways you can screw this up, most of which will add time and money to the process, and some of which can result in fines and a record of disciplinary action.
It's missing punctuation that's the problem, not the punctuation that you included. More to the point: the original question was about skipping a lawyer and using a do-it-yourself site to register an LLC. The do-it-yourself sites might possibly catch the punctuation thing, but they won't catch things like the architects forming the wrong type of corporation - leaving that to be caught later by the board, which happens all the time in NY. Or, if it doesn't get caught, then the firms end up with employees who can't get licensed because NY rejects architecture experience earned in LLCs. You can see this in various past threads about that issue on this site, written by distraught interns when they find out they need yet another 3 years of experience before they can get licensed in NY. It's easy to say that the applicant should know all the rules, but you can see from the OP's responses that she didn't know some of them - and from your responses that you don't either - and I really don't think that's unusual - NY's rules are not all in one place, and complicated. Incorporating an architecture firm in NY is just not a great do-it-yourself project - there are a lot of pitfalls.
Pllc's are commonly listed as simply an LLC in NY. Get a lawyer
NO. See, that's the wrong form. You're really not helping matters, and are potentially confusing people. New York has different incorporation forms for those incorporating under different Articles. What you've linked is the 1203 form, which is different from the 402 form, which is different from the 1503 form, and so forth. If she sends in that form she will get rejected and have to refile - plus the fees are all different, and in this case the $200 fee for the 1203 is higher than the fee for the form she actually needs. In addition to the correct incorporation form, she needs to get a certificate of authority from the Board of Education before she can get the corporation recorded (I know, that sounds wrong, but that's who regulates professional design corporations in NY...) It's a multi-step thing where you have to get the first form from the first department in order to get a certificate from the 2nd, to send back to the 1st. See, it's not a straightforward thing by any means, and linking to forms you're just guessing at isn't useful to anybody who finds this thread in the future either.
Step one, call lawyer
I'm no expert, but I'll bet there is a lot more than a single form to fill out
it sounds like she's trying to incorporate in order for her and her partner to be able to get insurance for a project that at least one of them is already working on. If that's the case then time is important. Also there's the issue with the partner working out of state. Also the OP is inexperienced enough that she was about to pay an online service to register an LLC that she didn't know was illegal. Also New York is notorious for retroactively imposed gotcha fines and sanctions. All of those things might make a few hours of lawyer time pay off hugely in the long run. Architects are always bitching about the idiocy committed by DIYers who don't know codes or building science, but then they turn around and try to Be Your Own Lawyer to save $800 or whatever. It's not going to be worth it if your inexperience causes you to waste billable hours, lose projects, not be insured, get fined, or screw over your employees. Any or all of those can happen if you get it wrong.
Right. My inclination was to hire a lawyer, but since time is of the essence I thought I'd try one last ditch effort to ensure legalzoom wasn't a viable option since it seemed all the young architects I know who started their own firm also considered legalzoom but ended up consulting a lawyer. Maybe I know a bunch of really ignorant young architects, but we all need to start somewhere. Thankfully my attorney is now able to call me tomorrow to give me free initial consultation since I'm already working with him on another matter. I appreciate all of your thoughtful comments.
What happened to the gentleman who joined us for a brief moment?
Update: my attorney will set up the PLLC for $750 in 7 days. That's fast enough for me. F-U ILLegalZoom! Thanks for all your informed thoughts.
good enough! sounds like you are in good hands