I completed my ARE's last fall and filed my form 1 application with the state, but was rejected because the company I work for was never properly filed with the state as a professional practice (the company is decades old and I suppose never updated). This is clearly written all over NY State OP's website, but I simply wasn't aware my company was violating the state's requirements. I made them aware and the company was refiled properly with the state, but the state won't view my past hours under the same licensed architect as valid due to this entity violation.
The legality of the firm's architectural services aside, I'm now being told I need 3 years of experience under a legal entity, and I've already been working out of school for over 5 years under a licensed architect - aka I've got another 3 years to go. So two points here:
1) Has anyone had this problem? Is there a way to work with the state so they can deem my time valid, by any chance? As anyone who's gone through school, IDP and ARE's, you can understand the frustration in discovering I'm now 3 years away from my goal, after 12 years of one single goal.
2) On a tad more extreme note, is my boss at fault here for not being aware of the impacts not only this may have on his company but also his employees seeking architectural licensure? In my view this feels like negligence. If I can't resolve the licensure and do need another 3 years of work experience to be considered, that's 3 more years of un-licensed status in the work force, which decreases my personal economic potential, which in NYC is arguably damaging.
Any thoughts that anyone may have about either of these points would be much appreciated. I first filed my form 1 6 months ago and have been trying to resolve this ever since.
Bloopox
Jun 3, 18 9:16 pm
Yes, this comes up periodically here and other forums. New York uses architecture licensing as a means for catching and collecting fines from firms that aren't registered properly with the state and/or are not types of companies that are allowed to provide architectural services in NY, and/or are owned in part or whole by non-architects. NY is very inflexible on this issue - and also has some rules that differ from NCARB's about when experience can start - so NCARB has added warning language on their website about confirming experience requirements with New York - but unfortunately candidates may not see that until they think they've completed their experience and go to transmit their record.
Trying to have the licensed architect sign off now probably won't work, as you've already submitted forms showing that you were working for a firm that wasn't an acceptable firm type in NY, and you're not going to be able to prove that you were working directly for the individual licensed architect - unless maybe he's also got a sole proprietorship separately and properly licensed with NY. Even then, your pay stubs and W2's and such probably reveal that you were actually working for the improperly incorporated firm.
You could immediately get licensed in a different state, where they will accept your NCARB record and not care about the firm's corporate status in NY - but NY still won't grant reciprocity on the basis of your NCARB record until you get 3 years of what they consider to be legitimate experience.
Bloopox
Jun 3, 18 9:58 pm
Picking up the phone is a good idea. It can't hurt. The OP asked whether this has come up before for others - I'm just giving the info on past instances. I'm licensed in NY - I have had some pretty frustrating issues related to NY-specific rules too. Calling them has not resulted in them budging on their stance re NY-specific rules. Let us know how it turns out!
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 3, 18 9:28 pm
First, sorry this happened. If there's still the option to do it, you can record some of your experience working for "other" firms.
nycarchitecturaldesigner
Jun 4, 18 7:03 am
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I have indeed called a few times and the individuals I’ve connected with have stated quite clearly an unwavering stance on the issue. I am going to have the architect under whom I work call to discuss, but I fear status won’t change anyone’s mind.
I don’t believe back logging hours will work now that I’ve submitted my hours under the entity which was illegally operating. NYS is strict, so sounds like I’m just stuck
You can imagine the frustration I have with my boss about this issue. I know some commenters here find this to be a self-entitled stance, but I feel owed compensation for this forced extension of lesser professional worth in the market.
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 4, 18 10:28 am
It's another reason why firms should not be the gatekeepers for the profession. I was classified as a temp employee for 3.5 years and not able to earn several categories of IDP because of the temp status. I didn't know I was a temp. They never told me that was why I wasn't given more opportunities. They just kept saying, nope, not today, just go sit in your chair. They call it a mushroom - keep you in the dark and feed you shit. I'm doing better than those guys at the same age despite their shenanigans. I think you should get your license taken away if you step on young people in the profession. That'll help clear up some of this pigsty. Sue them. I wish I had.
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 4, 18 10:45 am
(I went to a no fucks given seminar yesterday. Sorry, not sorry.)
Beepbeep
Jun 4, 18 10:39 am
Apply to receive your initial license in another state with your current hours and IDP + NCARB record, then apply through reciprocity to NYS. You do not need to be a resident of the state to get your license. I would not waste all the years of work and try to log them over, when most other places will accept them just fine as you have worked under direct supervision of an architect.
Bloopox
Jun 4, 18 11:14 am
Others who have tried this have run into the same issue: the other states grant initial licenses, on the basis of the completed IDP/AXP record, but when they apply to NY for reciprocity NY rejects it again on the basis of the NY experience. I still think it's a good idea to get the initial license somewhere else, but until he collects either 3 years of experience from another state or 3 years from legally structured and registered NY firms NY will keep rejecting it.
There is a workaround if he needs a license for a specific project in NY in the meantime: NY grants one-time-use project-specific reciprocity, which doesn't involve as much scrutiny - basically you just need a license in any state and you use that other state's stamp and affix your permission-slip letter from NY for that project, and you're good to go.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 4, 18 12:23 pm
Non architects are only allowed to own up to 25% of the company and not constitute more the 25% of the director/officers of the company if the company is registered as a DPC.
NYS wants to ensure that only Design Professionals own Architectural firms because then Interior Designers will be offering architectural services by hiring architects...
Bloopox
Jun 4, 18 12:46 pm
Right, but that's just one of many rules that NY blocks licenses for. Some others are: architecture firm incorporated as LLC (not allowed in NY); architecture firm never registered with state; architecture firm owes back fees; out of state firm's NY branch not properly registered; firm officer's license expired; and so on. They're all legitimate rule infractions - it's just unfortunate that the state is putting employees in the position of having to keep track of all these things for their employers, or risk having some or all of their experience rejected.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 4, 18 1:15 pm
Bloopox- you missed my point: NYS does not want non-architects to offer architectural services by forming companies that hire architects. They want architects to own the companies that offer architectural services. Its like a developwr starting his own architecture firm and hiring an in house architect to stamp his drawings. While this does happen- it is illegal, and rightfully so.
Bloopox
Jun 4, 18 1:19 pm
I understand the rationale for that rule. Some states don't even allow any % of an architecture firm to be owned by a non-architect at all, for that same reason. All I'm saying is that's just one of the reasons that NY flags people's experience. I think it's problematic that they're making it the employees' responsibility to verify whether the firm owner's are properly licensed, firm properly registered, etc. - especially as many of these employees are students or fresh out of school when they begin working for these firms. It's a lot to expect for them to know all the things they need to verify and keep tabs on, to make sure their experience is accepted by the state three or more years later.
Marcus Ziemke
Jun 4, 18 2:42 pm
.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 4, 18 1:44 pm
Look at Callison RTKL- there is a parent company registered as an entity not allowed by NYS law... However - there is a separate company registered in NYS called " RTKL NEW YORK ARCHITECTURE AND ENGINEERING P.C."
A DBA is fine under a properly licensed firm, but the issue of time crops up here, where March 2018 is when the entity was properly filed, and hours can't be back logged.
randomised
Jun 4, 18 2:24 pm
If they tricked you into signing up with them, claiming they were fully licensed and you could log your IDP hours with them, I'd simply sue them for wasting 3.5 years of your time...you honestly should. They are fucking scam artists.
shellarchitect
Jun 4, 18 2:44 pm
get another job before you do this. W
hat damages do you hope to collect?
randomised
Jun 4, 18 4:42 pm
Damages of not yet being able to get licensed, a do-over that sets you back 3.5 years, come on...that's huge! They should be named and shamed and put out of business, they ruin people's futures, it is disgusting!
BulgarBlogger
Jun 4, 18 9:08 pm
The issue only becomes an issue if companies like Mark Zeff were not willing or able to reincorporate because they want the non-licensed person to be the owner of the company.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 5, 18 9:06 pm
the audacity...
Architects of record (rubber stamping) is illegal in NYS...
Not all plan stamping is illegal in NYS. In fact NY has some of the most lax rules about that, allowing the stamping architect to review and stamp drawings and documents without having supervised their production, as long as a written log of the review is created and kept for 6 years. See 29.3(a)(3).
BulgarBlogger
Jun 5, 18 9:56 pm
While an architect may retain an interior designer as a consultant, or have an interior designer on staff, and pass on those services to the client, an interior designer or firm may not pass on architectural or engineering services to the client. There is nothing to prevent an interior design firm from having an architect on staff to participate or assist in the provision of interior design services, however, even if the architect has ownership in the interior design firm, the firm itself is still not authorized to provide architectural services.
Oh, I understand now. You're objecting to the firm type. Yeah, you could get them in trouble for that. But then they could just set themselves up as two sole proprietors instead of a corporation, and get away with the plan stamping by having the clients be the go betweens.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 6, 18 12:32 am
Lol- actually I perfectly understand whar AOR means; a client can hire a design consultant, but that consultant cannot legally offer architectural services in NYS. Similarly, a design consultant cannot have an in-house architect who would “legitimize” the businsss unless that in-house architect owns the consulting business.
Keep in mind- The New York Times can hire Renzo Piano to work from Italy to design a “theoretical” building that would be “transplantable” to New York after hiring FX Fowl, but Renzo Piano cannot legally call himself an architect in NYS unless he and his firm is properly registered as an architect in NYS.
Interior Design companies like Mark Zeff and D’Apostrophe (the principal used to work for Mark Zeff) take advantage of the gray areas and call themselves architectural and interior design firms when in fact they can never call themselves the latter... they are not architects and relying on this “AOR” loophole is bullshit- there is no such thing.
BulgarBlogger
Jun 6, 18 12:35 am
Renzo Piano is an architect in italy, but Mark Zeff or Francis D’Haene have never been registered as architects anywhere so to call their firms architectural and interior design firms with an architect of record is not even believable...
I completed my ARE's last fall and filed my form 1 application with the state, but was rejected because the company I work for was never properly filed with the state as a professional practice (the company is decades old and I suppose never updated). This is clearly written all over NY State OP's website, but I simply wasn't aware my company was violating the state's requirements. I made them aware and the company was refiled properly with the state, but the state won't view my past hours under the same licensed architect as valid due to this entity violation.
The legality of the firm's architectural services aside, I'm now being told I need 3 years of experience under a legal entity, and I've already been working out of school for over 5 years under a licensed architect - aka I've got another 3 years to go. So two points here:
1) Has anyone had this problem? Is there a way to work with the state so they can deem my time valid, by any chance? As anyone who's gone through school, IDP and ARE's, you can understand the frustration in discovering I'm now 3 years away from my goal, after 12 years of one single goal.
2) On a tad more extreme note, is my boss at fault here for not being aware of the impacts not only this may have on his company but also his employees seeking architectural licensure? In my view this feels like negligence. If I can't resolve the licensure and do need another 3 years of work experience to be considered, that's 3 more years of un-licensed status in the work force, which decreases my personal economic potential, which in NYC is arguably damaging.
Any thoughts that anyone may have about either of these points would be much appreciated. I first filed my form 1 6 months ago and have been trying to resolve this ever since.
Yes, this comes up periodically here and other forums. New York uses architecture licensing as a means for catching and collecting fines from firms that aren't registered properly with the state and/or are not types of companies that are allowed to provide architectural services in NY, and/or are owned in part or whole by non-architects. NY is very inflexible on this issue - and also has some rules that differ from NCARB's about when experience can start - so NCARB has added warning language on their website about confirming experience requirements with New York - but unfortunately candidates may not see that until they think they've completed their experience and go to transmit their record.
Trying to have the licensed architect sign off now probably won't work, as you've already submitted forms showing that you were working for a firm that wasn't an acceptable firm type in NY, and you're not going to be able to prove that you were working directly for the individual licensed architect - unless maybe he's also got a sole proprietorship separately and properly licensed with NY. Even then, your pay stubs and W2's and such probably reveal that you were actually working for the improperly incorporated firm.
You could immediately get licensed in a different state, where they will accept your NCARB record and not care about the firm's corporate status in NY - but NY still won't grant reciprocity on the basis of your NCARB record until you get 3 years of what they consider to be legitimate experience.
Picking up the phone is a good idea. It can't hurt. The OP asked whether this has come up before for others - I'm just giving the info on past instances. I'm licensed in NY - I have had some pretty frustrating issues related to NY-specific rules too. Calling them has not resulted in them budging on their stance re NY-specific rules. Let us know how it turns out!
First, sorry this happened. If there's still the option to do it, you can record some of your experience working for "other" firms.
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I have indeed called a few times and the individuals I’ve connected with have stated quite clearly an unwavering stance on the issue. I am going to have the architect under whom I work call to discuss, but I fear status won’t change anyone’s mind.
I don’t believe back logging hours will work now that I’ve submitted my hours under the entity which was illegally operating. NYS is strict, so sounds like I’m just stuck
You can imagine the frustration I have with my boss about this issue. I know some commenters here find this to be a self-entitled stance, but I feel owed compensation for this forced extension of lesser professional worth in the market.
It's another reason why firms should not be the gatekeepers for the profession. I was classified as a temp employee for 3.5 years and not able to earn several categories of IDP because of the temp status. I didn't know I was a temp. They never told me that was why I wasn't given more opportunities. They just kept saying, nope, not today, just go sit in your chair. They call it a mushroom - keep you in the dark and feed you shit. I'm doing better than those guys at the same age despite their shenanigans. I think you should get your license taken away if you step on young people in the profession. That'll help clear up some of this pigsty. Sue them. I wish I had.
(I went to a no fucks given seminar yesterday. Sorry, not sorry.)
Apply to receive your initial license in another state with your current hours and IDP + NCARB record, then apply through reciprocity to NYS. You do not need to be a resident of the state to get your license. I would not waste all the years of work and try to log them over, when most other places will accept them just fine as you have worked under direct supervision of an architect.
Others who have tried this have run into the same issue: the other states grant initial licenses, on the basis of the completed IDP/AXP record, but when they apply to NY for reciprocity NY rejects it again on the basis of the NY experience. I still think it's a good idea to get the initial license somewhere else, but until he collects either 3 years of experience from another state or 3 years from legally structured and registered NY firms NY will keep rejecting it.
There is a workaround if he needs a license for a specific project in NY in the meantime: NY grants one-time-use project-specific reciprocity, which doesn't involve as much scrutiny - basically you just need a license in any state and you use that other state's stamp and affix your permission-slip letter from NY for that project, and you're good to go.
Non architects are only allowed to own up to 25% of the company and not constitute more the 25% of the director/officers of the company if the company is registered as a DPC.
NYS wants to ensure that only Design Professionals own Architectural firms because then Interior Designers will be offering architectural services by hiring architects...
Right, but that's just one of many rules that NY blocks licenses for. Some others are: architecture firm incorporated as LLC (not allowed in NY); architecture firm never registered with state; architecture firm owes back fees; out of state firm's NY branch not properly registered; firm officer's license expired; and so on. They're all legitimate rule infractions - it's just unfortunate that the state is putting employees in the position of having to keep track of all these things for their employers, or risk having some or all of their experience rejected.
Bloopox- you missed my point: NYS does not want non-architects to offer architectural services by forming companies that hire architects. They want architects to own the companies that offer architectural services. Its like a developwr starting his own architecture firm and hiring an in house architect to stamp his drawings. While this does happen- it is illegal, and rightfully so.
I understand the rationale for that rule. Some states don't even allow any % of an architecture firm to be owned by a non-architect at all, for that same reason. All I'm saying is that's just one of the reasons that NY flags people's experience. I think it's problematic that they're making it the employees' responsibility to verify whether the firm owner's are properly licensed, firm properly registered, etc. - especially as many of these employees are students or fresh out of school when they begin working for these firms. It's a lot to expect for them to know all the things they need to verify and keep tabs on, to make sure their experience is accepted by the state three or more years later.
.
Look at Callison RTKL- there is a parent company registered as an entity not allowed by NYS law... However - there is a separate company registered in NYS called " RTKL NEW YORK ARCHITECTURE AND ENGINEERING P.C."
https://appext20.dos.ny.gov/co...
This is one way to get around it...I guess...
.
A DBA is fine under a properly licensed firm, but the issue of time crops up here, where March 2018 is when the entity was properly filed, and hours can't be back logged.
If they tricked you into signing up with them, claiming they were fully licensed and you could log your IDP hours with them, I'd simply sue them for wasting 3.5 years of your time...you honestly should. They are fucking scam artists.
get another job before you do this. W hat damages do you hope to collect?
Damages of not yet being able to get licensed, a do-over that sets you back 3.5 years, come on...that's huge! They should be named and shamed and put out of business, they ruin people's futures, it is disgusting!
The issue only becomes an issue if companies like Mark Zeff were not willing or able to reincorporate because they want the non-licensed person to be the owner of the company.
the audacity...
Architects of record (rubber stamping) is illegal in NYS...
https://www.dapostrophe.com/team
Someone should report this company...
Not all plan stamping is illegal in NYS. In fact NY has some of the most lax rules about that, allowing the stamping architect to review and stamp drawings and documents without having supervised their production, as long as a written log of the review is created and kept for 6 years. See 29.3(a)(3).
While an architect may retain an interior designer as a consultant, or have an interior designer on staff, and pass on those services to the client, an interior designer or firm may not pass on architectural or engineering services to the client. There is nothing to prevent an interior design firm from having an architect on staff to participate or assist in the provision of interior design services, however, even if the architect has ownership in the interior design firm, the firm itself is still not authorized to provide architectural services.
http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/archguide-b2.htm
Oh, I understand now. You're objecting to the firm type. Yeah, you could get them in trouble for that. But then they could just set themselves up as two sole proprietors instead of a corporation, and get away with the plan stamping by having the clients be the go betweens.
Lol- actually I perfectly understand whar AOR means; a client can hire a design consultant, but that consultant cannot legally offer architectural services in NYS. Similarly, a design consultant cannot have an in-house architect who would “legitimize” the businsss unless that in-house architect owns the consulting business.
Keep in mind- The New York Times can hire Renzo Piano to work from Italy to design a “theoretical” building that would be “transplantable” to New York after hiring FX Fowl, but Renzo Piano cannot legally call himself an architect in NYS unless he and his firm is properly registered as an architect in NYS.
Interior Design companies like Mark Zeff and D’Apostrophe (the principal used to work for Mark Zeff) take advantage of the gray areas and call themselves architectural and interior design firms when in fact they can never call themselves the latter... they are not architects and relying on this “AOR” loophole is bullshit- there is no such thing.
Renzo Piano is an architect in italy, but Mark Zeff or Francis D’Haene have never been registered as architects anywhere so to call their firms architectural and interior design firms with an architect of record is not even believable...