Didn't see this posted anywhere else in the forum?
I used to work at a small architecture firm where I quickly gained lots of responsibility. One day, a client asked me to work with him on a project. I told him I had an exclusive agreement with my bosses, but when I left I would be free to do so. Shortly before my last day, one of my bosses asked what I was going to do next. I replied that I was in talks with one of the firm’s clients for a project outside the firm’s line of work. My boss became angry and asked if I thought it was right to talk to her client. I replied I saw no problem as I had already quit and was not stealing work. I was fired on the spot for “personal, not professional, betrayal.” Did I do anything wrong? Name Withheld
From what I can gather (post-firm work, outside firm's expertise), I agree that nothing was done wrong, and that the boss sounds a bit hissy.
Bigger agreement on the big picture: that these kinds of issues are common, that they're fraught with conflict, and that clarity of boundaries is often missing.
wurdan freo
Mar 18, 18 10:26 pm
The NYT missed the one common sense point... personal or not, I don't know any Boss who wouldn't be a bit upset if their underling stole one of their clients (unless client perhaps didn't pay bills and was a douchebag) Pretty naive to think otherwise... right or wrong employee should expect to get fired the second they reveal they are stealing a bosses client... duh.
Nam Henderson
Mar 18, 18 11:14 pm
Is it stealing a client, if it is for type of work the employer doesn't do?
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 18, 18 11:32 pm
No.
Miles Jaffe
Mar 18, 18 11:36 pm
Most firms start with a previous firm's client. Did s/he quit before or after s/he got the offer? In this case - if accurate - the client stole the employee, not the other way around.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 18, 18 11:43 pm
Miles, I took a client I brought to the firm, and paid the architect so I didn't become an issue, and taint my name in the city.
wurdan freo
Mar 27, 18 3:41 pm
It's a fine line... that piece of work may not be desired by the firm but they may do it as a favor in order to keep the client happy and the next big project in line. Either way. I wouldn't expect to many people to be happy with an employee walking away with a client... sure there are some enlightened minds out there but most would be pissed.. right or wrong.
Miles Jaffe
Mar 18, 18 11:25 pm
Bullshit central has an ethicist? "Ethics" and The New York Times don't belong in the same sentence.
It's not very clear whether the employee "stole" the client or whether the "client" was trying to steal the employee. In either case, clients and employees are not property. They can't be stolen.
Additionally, I'd be curious as to how the boss started her practice. Probably by going behind her employer's back in some way or other, and how she is having a bit of a memory lapse.
Peter Normand
Mar 19, 18 9:27 am
When you are in the "exit" interview stage do not ever tell the employer you are leaving what you are doing until you are totally free from them, served out your two weeks notice, got your last pay check, and the firm actually paid your federal and state withholding. Many architecture firms are small shops and things get personal, because these firms are small shops they lack the HR professionals who can steer the firm clear of many HR related missteps.
As for the firing, I think you should assume doing any business with your current firm's client is going to be a problem, especially if it violates the firm's policy on moonlighting. While you are still an employee any of your work and your mistakes can leave the current firm at risk of liability. The firing probably was justifiable as a means of protecting your now former bosses firm from liability from your work. It is uncommon for people to work in more than one firm at a time, especially for the same client.
Over and OUT
Peter N
YourYoureYore
Mar 25, 18 9:45 pm
how on earth do you get fired after you put your 2 weeks in? I would have laughed.
Regardless, it's dumb to disclose what your next move is to a former employer. Going out on my own or "going to a different firm" is quite sufficient. As often as people get asked not to come back after they put their two weeks in or downsized to protect shareholder profits, I'm not totally convinced there are any ethical obligations when switching jobs.
3tk
Mar 26, 18 2:43 pm
As I understood it, the non-compete legal issue is in that the client came to the firm based on the reputation of the firm. Any work stemming from that is based upon that. Though employers do develop close relationships with the clients independent of the firm, it is often held that the relationship would not exist were it not for the firm's reputation.
In my experience many firms do begin with a client switching over, in many cases that is permitted/understood prior to the move. Sometimes the work is related, in others it is not. Mature firms seem to understand that it is normal for senior staff to go out on their own and are supportive of the process (those that leave are often at their ceiling and opt not to buy out the owners). Younger or less cohesive firms seem to find it to be 'backstabbing'. Quite frankly I feel its better that employees feel capable enough to leave than young incompetent staff moonlighting potential disasters using the firms hardware/software and drawing archives.
whistler
Mar 27, 18 11:40 am
Just had one of our project architect announce that they were leaving to start their own office. Out of respect I would expect them to not steal a client, or files or administrative systems that I have set upper years but understand the whole process as I think over the last 20 years I have only had two others leave to start their own office. Ultimately I think it's in everyone's interest to leave on good terms and respect of each others boundaries. I get that occasionally a firm gets to large and can be seen to be under serving a client who might get frustrated and want to steal the employee and get a better level of service for themselves. Something that employee should be wary of, but one way to start. It's all good when times are booming but tough when the economy slows and that's what most employees don't see through their rose coloured glasses.
joseffischer
Mar 27, 18 1:41 pm
I didn't weight in much on the client "stealing" conversation, but especially with revit, if you think X employees are redeveloping all the families and details etc, rather than just walking out the door with your template/families, then you don't know enough about production to realize the time sync suggested by redrawing/modeling all of that work. I promise you, every firm that's peeled away from another firm, especially if they're taking clients, are also taking at a minimum the files of the projects they worked on and the files specific to the client they're 'stealing'.
whistler
Mar 27, 18 1:45 pm
yup, I find it disrespectful but well aware that it happens. Found out that a previous person that had left the office didn't even take the time to create their own title block. Down side of the digital world..... in my day I had to physically take out the sepia originals and get them copied at the print shop down the street, not very stealthy.
wurdan freo
Mar 27, 18 4:03 pm
ha that's pretty hilarious... did you send them a cease and desist . How did you find out they didn't change the titleblock?
joseffischer
Mar 27, 18 4:33 pm
Would you offer them if they asked for them? I don't see a specific reason why I shouldn't share roof details I cribbed from firestone or Johns Manville anyway. We have a school client, for instance, that requires all curbs, pipe penetration flashing, etc to be 12" minimum instead of the manufacturer warrantied minimum of 8", and we've altered the drawings accordingly. It seems a bit petty to not let the PM who altered the drawing in the first place take those drawings so that they could service the school system without having to redo that work.
whistler
Mar 27, 18 7:51 pm
Warden,
It's small town and that makes it even funnier. I knew their client ( not someone I would work for personally) and so the drawings came through our office as I was the design reviewer for a particular subdivision where they were doing a house design. Too funny and not worth my time to make a bigger deal of it.
I just take the high road on stuff like that, I have other things I would rather get upset about or burn brain cells over.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 27, 18 4:55 pm
Non-competes are largely unenforceable. An employer can't dictate that you can't get hired by someone who has hired them in the past. We have an ethical code, and this is not a breach of it. Old people forget that somewhere at some point they got a break too. Clients come and go, it's a mostly free market by law. Do better work if you want to keep your clients. What would the client's feelings be if they were FORCED to stay with the original architect?
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 27, 18 5:12 pm
I had two former employees (my other business) steal files, resources, and marketing plans and partner together to start their own company. Im sure the got a few clients too. We told them good luck. They lasted a year.
Didn't see this posted anywhere else in the forum?
I used to work at a small architecture firm where I quickly gained
via NYT's The Ethicistlots of responsibility. One day, a client asked me to work with him on a
project. I told him I had an exclusive agreement with my bosses, but
when I left I would be free to do so. Shortly before my last day, one of
my bosses asked what I was going to do next. I replied that I was in
talks with one of the firm’s clients for a project outside the firm’s
line of work. My boss became angry and asked if I thought it was right
to talk to her client. I replied I saw no problem as I had already quit
and was not stealing work. I was fired on the spot for “personal, not
professional, betrayal.” Did I do anything wrong? Name Withheld
By "verdict" do you mean the firing?
Sorry no, The Ethicist's answer/response.
From what I can gather (post-firm work, outside firm's expertise), I agree that nothing was done wrong, and that the boss sounds a bit hissy.
Bigger agreement on the big picture: that these kinds of issues are common, that they're fraught with conflict, and that clarity of boundaries is often missing.
The NYT missed the one common sense point... personal or not, I don't know any Boss who wouldn't be a bit upset if their underling stole one of their clients (unless client perhaps didn't pay bills and was a douchebag) Pretty naive to think otherwise... right or wrong employee should expect to get fired the second they reveal they are stealing a bosses client... duh.
Is it stealing a client, if it is for type of work the employer doesn't do?
No.
Most firms start with a previous firm's client. Did s/he quit before or after s/he got the offer? In this case - if accurate - the client stole the employee, not the other way around.
Miles, I took a client I brought to the firm, and paid the architect so I didn't become an issue, and taint my name in the city.
It's a fine line... that piece of work may not be desired by the firm but they may do it as a favor in order to keep the client happy and the next big project in line. Either way. I wouldn't expect to many people to be happy with an employee walking away with a client... sure there are some enlightened minds out there but most would be pissed.. right or wrong.
Bullshit central has an ethicist? "Ethics" and The New York Times don't belong in the same sentence.
"Unnamed intelligence officials, citing secret documents ..."
It's not very clear whether the employee "stole" the client or whether the "client" was trying to steal the employee. In either case, clients and employees are not property. They can't be stolen.
Additionally, I'd be curious as to how the boss started her practice. Probably by going behind her employer's back in some way or other, and how she is having a bit of a memory lapse.
When you are in the "exit" interview stage do not ever tell the employer you are leaving what you are doing until you are totally free from them, served out your two weeks notice, got your last pay check, and the firm actually paid your federal and state withholding. Many architecture firms are small shops and things get personal, because these firms are small shops they lack the HR professionals who can steer the firm clear of many HR related missteps.
As for the firing, I think you should assume doing any business with your current firm's client is going to be a problem, especially if it violates the firm's policy on moonlighting. While you are still an employee any of your work and your mistakes can leave the current firm at risk of liability. The firing probably was justifiable as a means of protecting your now former bosses firm from liability from your work. It is uncommon for people to work in more than one firm at a time, especially for the same client.
Over and OUT
Peter N
how on earth do you get fired after you put your 2 weeks in? I would have laughed.
Regardless, it's dumb to disclose what your next move is to a former employer. Going out on my own or "going to a different firm" is quite sufficient. As often as people get asked not to come back after they put their two weeks in or downsized to protect shareholder profits, I'm not totally convinced there are any ethical obligations when switching jobs.
As I understood it, the non-compete legal issue is in that the client came to the firm based on the reputation of the firm. Any work stemming from that is based upon that. Though employers do develop close relationships with the clients independent of the firm, it is often held that the relationship would not exist were it not for the firm's reputation.
In my experience many firms do begin with a client switching over, in many cases that is permitted/understood prior to the move. Sometimes the work is related, in others it is not. Mature firms seem to understand that it is normal for senior staff to go out on their own and are supportive of the process (those that leave are often at their ceiling and opt not to buy out the owners). Younger or less cohesive firms seem to find it to be 'backstabbing'. Quite frankly I feel its better that employees feel capable enough to leave than young incompetent staff moonlighting potential disasters using the firms hardware/software and drawing archives.
Just had one of our project architect announce that they were leaving to start their own office. Out of respect I would expect them to not steal a client, or files or administrative systems that I have set upper years but understand the whole process as I think over the last 20 years I have only had two others leave to start their own office. Ultimately I think it's in everyone's interest to leave on good terms and respect of each others boundaries. I get that occasionally a firm gets to large and can be seen to be under serving a client who might get frustrated and want to steal the employee and get a better level of service for themselves. Something that employee should be wary of, but one way to start. It's all good when times are booming but tough when the economy slows and that's what most employees don't see through their rose coloured glasses.
I didn't weight in much on the client "stealing" conversation, but especially with revit, if you think X employees are redeveloping all the families and details etc, rather than just walking out the door with your template/families, then you don't know enough about production to realize the time sync suggested by redrawing/modeling all of that work. I promise you, every firm that's peeled away from another firm, especially if they're taking clients, are also taking at a minimum the files of the projects they worked on and the files specific to the client they're 'stealing'.
yup, I find it disrespectful but well aware that it happens. Found out that a previous person that had left the office didn't even take the time to create their own title block. Down side of the digital world..... in my day I had to physically take out the sepia originals and get them copied at the print shop down the street, not very stealthy.
ha that's pretty hilarious... did you send them a cease and desist . How did you find out they didn't change the titleblock?
Would you offer them if they asked for them? I don't see a specific reason why I shouldn't share roof details I cribbed from firestone or Johns Manville anyway. We have a school client, for instance, that requires all curbs, pipe penetration flashing, etc to be 12" minimum instead of the manufacturer warrantied minimum of 8", and we've altered the drawings accordingly. It seems a bit petty to not let the PM who altered the drawing in the first place take those drawings so that they could service the school system without having to redo that work.
Warden,
It's small town and that makes it even funnier. I knew their client ( not someone I would work for personally) and so the drawings came through our office as I was the design reviewer for a particular subdivision where they were doing a house design. Too funny and not worth my time to make a bigger deal of it.
I just take the high road on stuff like that, I have other things I would rather get upset about or burn brain cells over.
Non-competes are largely unenforceable. An employer can't dictate that you can't get hired by someone who has hired them in the past. We have an ethical code, and this is not a breach of it. Old people forget that somewhere at some point they got a break too. Clients come and go, it's a mostly free market by law. Do better work if you want to keep your clients. What would the client's feelings be if they were FORCED to stay with the original architect?
I had two former employees (my other business) steal files, resources, and marketing plans and partner together to start their own company. Im sure the got a few clients too. We told them good luck. They lasted a year.