I wanted some help on the type of plans I want from an Architect. I acquired an Architect and paid a substantial amount only to realize (due to my ignorance) that the plans were only RTI plans; I thought the plans I would receive would be able to be used by a GC to completely build out my shop. I want to limit my liability in the process as much as possible to the Architect and GC as Im not a professional or expert in code requirements and leaving many design details to the imagination of a GC is undesirable (change orders).
Since this is my first build out I had foolishly expected my architect to have my best interest at heart and feel I paid (20 k plus, not including structural, or mep) way to much for a small coffee shop build out. Although I didn't have a lawyer look over the contract so I agreed to pay and this is fair. It seems in the contract the architect isn't responsible for anything (non standard AIA contract?) but to get RTI permits.
Anyway if anybody can help and give detailed services I could ask for, I want every detail, materials included, codes applied and liability for this on the Architect +GC, and hopefully the same for the MEP.
Thank you for any suggestions.
Non Sequitur
Feb 27, 18 10:38 pm
You should have paid your architect more and asked them to perfome construction administration services. You cheaped out and tried to do things on your own.
cabkrpv
Feb 27, 18 11:08 pm
Haha you sound like them. I never tried to do it "on my own". Nothing was cheap about the services, it's only a 1500 ft coffee shop that was formerly a coffee shop with many things in place.
cabkrpv
Feb 27, 18 11:11 pm
21k is a lot of money for most people, and most wouldn't even want to pay an Architect 5k to do projects like mine. I talked with a good Architect after the fact and he wouldve charged 18k total including structural and mep.
Non Sequitur
Feb 28, 18 12:24 am
you did not seek construction administration from the architect because, as you claim above, you wanted to have your GC do the work. You need to retain the arch to see through the construction.
Also note, 5K won't get much attention. You clearly don't know the value of consultants. Expensive lesson I guess.
cabkrpv
Feb 28, 18 3:24 am
Im sure my architect would agree with you so he could approve a myriad of change orders. Clearly you think everybody is rich and note I didnt say 5k would get anybody any attention.
Non Sequitur
Feb 28, 18 8:09 am
You did say would not pay an architect 5k. How did you find the original guy?
Miles Jaffe
Feb 27, 18 10:41 pm
Should have hired a real architect on fivver.
x-jla
Feb 28, 18 11:27 am
For 5$ you get architecture and a free picture frame with a value of 2.99$.
babs
Feb 27, 18 11:15 pm
cabkrpv: At the beginning of this project did you ask the architect you initially hired "what services from your firm are necessary / desirable to fully accomplish this project ?" If so, did you follow his/her recommendations? If the answer to either of those questions is "no" then you really should not be blaming the architect for this situation.
Your assumptions and your failure do conduct adequate 'due diligence' does not make this your architect's problem.
cabkrpv
Feb 27, 18 11:33 pm
I agree, I said in my first post that it was ignorance on my part to pay the overpriced contract which didn't provide what I needed. However, with no background in architecture or construction how would I know that a RTI set of plans is practically useless except for getting a building permit. I believe this scenario is good for architects who have buddys who are GC's as this creates a lot of potential revenue in the build out for a newbie like me. I believe this shouldve been explained to me; but this is not even the point of my post above. Because I dont know about these things thats why I posted on here, to become more informed.
proto
Feb 28, 18 4:06 pm
It's not a scam to provide just permit docs. It's actually quite common and a benefit to small project developers like yourself who want to manage professional fees. It IS expensive to have the architect determine all the interior elevations and spec out all the finishes, fixtures & equipment in a documented way that a GC can price and build. Imagine having to leave a note at home for a person you've never met to come in & renovate your kitchen while you are away. And, remember, that note can only happen after you sit down and figure out what it is exactly you want to do. There's a lot of time there. I'm sorry that it wasn't what you expected. Next time (or even now), I'd suggest a first effort of reviewing the architect's contract with the architect first. Then, if clarity (or confidence in what you hear) is not achieved, ask a second party. If it's a lawyer, make sure you talk to one familiar with owner/architect or construction contracts. The field has its own standards & expectations.
archi_dude
Feb 28, 18 12:19 am
wait is this legal? Pardon my ignorance too, this sounds like something that may be in the contract but is totally unenforcible. I was not aware of the ability for an architect to stamp plans for permit and then claim no liability. In fact the jurisdictions I’ve been in if you have “Not for Construction” in the title block (OP this is just to make the client doesn’t run off with the plans when we just send a check set) the city makes us remove it as a comment.
cabkrpv
Feb 28, 18 2:38 am
Thanks I didnt know that about the construction comments.
I believe the architectural plans are considered my liability (implied warranty, spearin doctrine) when it comes to construction. Im still researching this and don't have a complete understanding of everything yet.
spiketwig
Feb 28, 18 12:40 pm
First off 20K for a 1,500SF coffee shop from concept through an RTI permit is not overpriced. $5k for that scope is quite frankly insulting. That would cover at the very most a week and half of work.
I'm not sure you're understanding what goes into creating the plans. It's not just putting a few lines on paper - yeah that's easy. It's knowing WHICH lines to put on paper that will get you the project you want - within budget and on schedule. I've never understood clients who think it's so easy - if it's such a simple quick exercise, feel free to do it yourself. I constantly hear the complaints that "I could have drawn this up in an afternoon" - sure bud. Will the city approve the permits on those drawings or will you have three rounds of revisions blowing up your schedule. Will the GC understand what you want or will you be buried in change orders and end up with a subpar buildout?
Second off, it seems the problem is you're cheap. If you want the architect to hold your hand through construction, guess what you get to pay for construction administration services. Literally what you're wanting your architect to do is standard CA. So pay them for it, we don't work for free. I also hear this from clients all the time. "Oh we can handle it, don't worry! You can take that out of the contract!" and then cut to a non stop flood of requests for support as soon as someone picks up a hammer. Just know: there is NO set of plans out there that can be built without any questions or changes. This is the entire reason architects offer these services. Needing CA services is absolutely not an indication that your architect has provided inadequate plans.
Lastly, it's true there are some bad architects out there that will give you a crappy set of plans and leave you hanging out to dry. Maybe that happened to you. But I hear these same complaints so often that it leads me to believe many out there think that needing stamped plans for construction is some kind of government conspiracy sponsored by the architect's cabal. But seriously think about what that stamp means: every time we stamp a drawing we're saying that it meets established standards for code/constructability/accessibility/energy efficiency/life safety/and so on (and if we're wrong we get sued). Would YOU want to stamp a few drawings some guy of the street drew up in MS Paint in an afternoon? Didn't think so.
gibbost
Feb 28, 18 1:24 pm
Construction Admin by the architect is like that follow-up visit to the doctor after surgery. Sure, you might feel okay . . . but it's probably best to have the professional give it the 'once-over' just for peace of mind. Why wouldn't you want the person responsible for the drawings to come along for the ride during construction?
It it for that reason, I have never taken a project without requiring some level of involvement during construction. To the OP, I can only assume this was spelled out in the contract--as most architects are very sensitive to the issue.
Also, we do a lot of work for major players in the retail coffee market--fees are typically $40k+ ($28K arch + $12k mep).
cabkrpv
Feb 28, 18 3:34 pm
Because of my interactions with him so far; I can't trust him and would have to write a couple pages to explain everything that happened so far.
cabkrpv
Feb 28, 18 3:37 pm
The price you mentioned I assume is for a brand new coffee shop. As I mentioned Im opening a former coffee shop with not much work needing to be done.
cabkrpv
Feb 28, 18 3:42 pm
Im not going to argue with anybody if they think they should get paid a certain amount for their work. If I want to charge 10$ for a cup of coffee that is up to me. I think many people posting are generally offended at what people are willing to pay them and are trying to stick me in that group, however I don't believe I paid for what I got. And like I mentioned a very good architect (recommended by a person at building and safety) told me after the fact said he wouldve charged me 18k including mep and structural ( a single wall).
gibbost
Feb 28, 18 4:13 pm
And if I'm willing to pay $10 for your coffee, I most likely have weighed my other options and feel like yours is worth it. Buyer's remorse after my purchase doesn't make you a bad guy--it makes me a schmuck. In your case, most would argue that the money you spent is commensurate with what you received--based upon market forces.
proto
Feb 28, 18 4:19 pm
I think some people here are labeling you as cheap, which is not particularly fair, since you are new to this. You understandably want to limit professional fees to only what is necessary. Any small business owner wants to do this. It sounds like you needed more design help than was provided and unfortunately didn't have a conversation about the extent of services & deliverables up front. I'm not sure I understand yet how you can't trust him. And maybe it's too much to list out here. I'd suggest a conversation directly with the architect to clarify as a first step, but if things are irreparable, maybe hire another professional? (I'm not sure the bldg dept is necessarily the best recommender here...I'd try casting a wider net to other small business owners who've done similar projects...any neighboring businesses you can chat with on this topic?)
Hi,
I wanted some help on the type of plans I want from an Architect. I acquired an Architect and paid a substantial amount only to realize (due to my ignorance) that the plans were only RTI plans; I thought the plans I would receive would be able to be used by a GC to completely build out my shop. I want to limit my liability in the process as much as possible to the Architect and GC as Im not a professional or expert in code requirements and leaving many design details to the imagination of a GC is undesirable (change orders).
Since this is my first build out I had foolishly expected my architect to have my best interest at heart and feel I paid (20 k plus, not including structural, or mep) way to much for a small coffee shop build out. Although I didn't have a lawyer look over the contract so I agreed to pay and this is fair. It seems in the contract the architect isn't responsible for anything (non standard AIA contract?) but to get RTI permits.
Anyway if anybody can help and give detailed services I could ask for, I want every detail, materials included, codes applied and liability for this on the Architect +GC, and hopefully the same for the MEP.
Thank you for any suggestions.
You should have paid your architect more and asked them to perfome construction administration services. You cheaped out and tried to do things on your own.
Haha you sound like them. I never tried to do it "on my own". Nothing was cheap about the services, it's only a 1500 ft coffee shop that was formerly a coffee shop with many things in place.
21k is a lot of money for most people, and most wouldn't even want to pay an Architect 5k to do projects like mine. I talked with a good Architect after the fact and he wouldve charged 18k total including structural and mep.
you did not seek construction administration from the architect because, as you claim above, you wanted to have your GC do the work. You need to retain the arch to see through the construction.
Also note, 5K won't get much attention. You clearly don't know the value of consultants. Expensive lesson I guess.
Im sure my architect would agree with you so he could approve a myriad of change orders. Clearly you think everybody is rich and note I didnt say 5k would get anybody any attention.
You did say would not pay an architect 5k. How did you find the original guy?
Should have hired a real architect on fivver.
For 5$ you get architecture and a free picture frame with a value of 2.99$.
cabkrpv: At the beginning of this project did you ask the architect you initially hired "what services from your firm are necessary / desirable to fully accomplish this project ?" If so, did you follow his/her recommendations? If the answer to either of those questions is "no" then you really should not be blaming the architect for this situation.
Your assumptions and your failure do conduct adequate 'due diligence' does not make this your architect's problem.
I agree, I said in my first post that it was ignorance on my part to pay the overpriced contract which didn't provide what I needed. However, with no background in architecture or construction how would I know that a RTI set of plans is practically useless except for getting a building permit. I believe this scenario is good for architects who have buddys who are GC's as this creates a lot of potential revenue in the build out for a newbie like me. I believe this shouldve been explained to me; but this is not even the point of my post above. Because I dont know about these things thats why I posted on here, to become more informed.
It's not a scam to provide just permit docs. It's actually quite common and a benefit to small project developers like yourself who want to manage professional fees. It IS expensive to have the architect determine all the interior elevations and spec out all the finishes, fixtures & equipment in a documented way that a GC can price and build. Imagine having to leave a note at home for a person you've never met to come in & renovate your kitchen while you are away. And, remember, that note can only happen after you sit down and figure out what it is exactly you want to do. There's a lot of time there. I'm sorry that it wasn't what you expected. Next time (or even now), I'd suggest a first effort of reviewing the architect's contract with the architect first. Then, if clarity (or confidence in what you hear) is not achieved, ask a second party. If it's a lawyer, make sure you talk to one familiar with owner/architect or construction contracts. The field has its own standards & expectations.
wait is this legal? Pardon my ignorance too, this sounds like something that may be in the contract but is totally unenforcible. I was not aware of the ability for an architect to stamp plans for permit and then claim no liability. In fact the jurisdictions I’ve been in if you have “Not for Construction” in the title block (OP this is just to make the client doesn’t run off with the plans when we just send a check set) the city makes us remove it as a comment.
Thanks I didnt know that about the construction comments.
I believe the architectural plans are considered my liability (implied warranty, spearin doctrine) when it comes to construction. Im still researching this and don't have a complete understanding of everything yet.
First off 20K for a 1,500SF coffee shop from concept through an RTI permit is not overpriced. $5k for that scope is quite frankly insulting. That would cover at the very most a week and half of work.
I'm not sure you're understanding what goes into creating the plans. It's not just putting a few lines on paper - yeah that's easy. It's knowing WHICH lines to put on paper that will get you the project you want - within budget and on schedule. I've never understood clients who think it's so easy - if it's such a simple quick exercise, feel free to do it yourself. I constantly hear the complaints that "I could have drawn this up in an afternoon" - sure bud. Will the city approve the permits on those drawings or will you have three rounds of revisions blowing up your schedule. Will the GC understand what you want or will you be buried in change orders and end up with a subpar buildout?
Second off, it seems the problem is you're cheap. If you want the architect to hold your hand through construction, guess what you get to pay for construction administration services. Literally what you're wanting your architect to do is standard CA. So pay them for it, we don't work for free. I also hear this from clients all the time. "Oh we can handle it, don't worry! You can take that out of the contract!" and then cut to a non stop flood of requests for support as soon as someone picks up a hammer. Just know: there is NO set of plans out there that can be built without any questions or changes. This is the entire reason architects offer these services. Needing CA services is absolutely not an indication that your architect has provided inadequate plans.
Lastly, it's true there are some bad architects out there that will give you a crappy set of plans and leave you hanging out to dry. Maybe that happened to you. But I hear these same complaints so often that it leads me to believe many out there think that needing stamped plans for construction is some kind of government conspiracy sponsored by the architect's cabal. But seriously think about what that stamp means: every time we stamp a drawing we're saying that it meets established standards for code/constructability/accessibility/energy efficiency/life safety/and so on (and if we're wrong we get sued). Would YOU want to stamp a few drawings some guy of the street drew up in MS Paint in an afternoon? Didn't think so.
Construction Admin by the architect is like that follow-up visit to the doctor after surgery. Sure, you might feel okay . . . but it's probably best to have the professional give it the 'once-over' just for peace of mind. Why wouldn't you want the person responsible for the drawings to come along for the ride during construction?
It it for that reason, I have never taken a project without requiring some level of involvement during construction. To the OP, I can only assume this was spelled out in the contract--as most architects are very sensitive to the issue.
Also, we do a lot of work for major players in the retail coffee market--fees are typically $40k+ ($28K arch + $12k mep).
Because of my interactions with him so far; I can't trust him and would have to write a couple pages to explain everything that happened so far.
The price you mentioned I assume is for a brand new coffee shop. As I mentioned Im opening a former coffee shop with not much work needing to be done.
Im not going to argue with anybody if they think they should get paid a certain amount for their work. If I want to charge 10$ for a cup of coffee that is up to me. I think many people posting are generally offended at what people are willing to pay them and are trying to stick me in that group, however I don't believe I paid for what I got. And like I mentioned a very good architect (recommended by a person at building and safety) told me after the fact said he wouldve charged me 18k including mep and structural ( a single wall).
And if I'm willing to pay $10 for your coffee, I most likely have weighed my other options and feel like yours is worth it. Buyer's remorse after my purchase doesn't make you a bad guy--it makes me a schmuck. In your case, most would argue that the money you spent is commensurate with what you received--based upon market forces.
I think some people here are labeling you as cheap, which is not particularly fair, since you are new to this. You understandably want to limit professional fees to only what is necessary. Any small business owner wants to do this. It sounds like you needed more design help than was provided and unfortunately didn't have a conversation about the extent of services & deliverables up front. I'm not sure I understand yet how you can't trust him. And maybe it's too much to list out here. I'd suggest a conversation directly with the architect to clarify as a first step, but if things are irreparable, maybe hire another professional? (I'm not sure the bldg dept is necessarily the best recommender here...I'd try casting a wider net to other small business owners who've done similar projects...any neighboring businesses you can chat with on this topic?)