I have a tricky question for you guys. So I was working at an office developing a design for an A-framed roof. I went through several design options and developed a scheme on my own that the principle did not necessarily ask for. Now, I'm working on a new project for a competition and would like to use this same formal language, however more refined and in-detail.
Could they sue me for using the same kind of form that I developed at that office? Honestly, its an A-frame roof with a spin that I put on it. But with these guys, I can't be too careful. They could try to smite me.
But for instance, when people leave Steven Holl's office, many of them take away a very strong formal influences from him to their new offices. Mr. Holl is probably a good guy and does not need to sue people over these kind of things. However other people are not.
Let me know what you guys think...
x-jla
Dec 6, 17 11:41 am
Ask a patent attorney, but my guess...No. Sue for what? to sue you need to prove harm. What tangible financial harm has been done by x using a similar roof as y? If your previous client was upset, then maybe, but you personally haven't lost anything. It's also impossible/difficult to prove that the other person didn't have the same idea. I've had many many ideas that I later find have been done before...Design is a process of discovery, and one path usually leads to another commonly found path. The pyramid for instance was invented many times by different cultures with no contact. The column as well. The thing with architecture is that it's not a product, and your marketability "supply" isn't really affected the same as it would if you had a product that was copied and sold along side yours.
Erik Evens
Dec 6, 17 12:00 pm
The whole notion that you wouldn't be able to borrow from architecture which came before seems just silly to me.
TIQM
Dec 6, 17 12:05 pm
The whole notion that someone would avoid acknowledging borrowing from other architecture seems silly to me.
TIQM
Dec 6, 17 12:09 pm
We all borrow, all the time. It's what architects do. And it's ok. That's how good architecture happens.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 6, 17 1:13 pm
It's also how bad architecture happens.
TIQM
Dec 6, 17 1:37 pm
I'd much rather have architects of average or marginal talent borrowing from great buildings and great architects, than trying to be innovative, and falling short. The world would be a better place.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 6, 17 1:40 pm
Depends on what you borrow and how you use it. Sturgeon's Law applies here. Then there is the matter of defining "talent".
Le Courvoisier
Dec 6, 17 4:40 pm
I should sue you for stealing my username.
randomised
Dec 7, 17 3:52 am
Exactly!
stevenas135
Dec 8, 17 11:45 am
for the record dude, I had that username in like 2011 but changed it because its too egotistic
stevenas135
Dec 8, 17 11:45 am
will change, because I can't seem to get away from you dimwits
archinine
Dec 6, 17 10:29 pm
Based on your description it's highly unlikely the design would qualify for a patent. It would if it was considered an invention, so if this system you've devised has a unique way of handling loads etc, and of course if such a system has not already been patented. More likely it would fall under copyright as most architectural works do. However it would take an inordinate amount of time, labor etc to research every architectural design for copyright infringement same as it would to file every drawing set for being *slightly* unique. Usually the existing conditions alone create an argument that there is an inherent difference in the design to avoid any frivolous lawsuits.
The real question at hand to OP is less about this design being unique and whether the firm at which it was developed has any specific clauses in their employment contract dictating what can and cannot be done with work performed while on the clock and using their equipment/software. Typically large firms have a boiler plate agreement all employees must sign which clearly states any and all work performed on company time and or on company property automatically becomes the intellectual property of the company. This is completely separate from whether or not this particular iteration was built or shown to a client.
If you are at a smaller firm they usually do not have such clauses though some do. Your safest bet is to read through any onboarding documents you may have signed. If you signed nothing, and especially if there are no monies to be made from this competition entry (I'm guessing zero to very little is the amount), there is likely little reason to think the firm owner will sue you. Even if they had grounds - which they could in that it was done on time they'd paid you for and on their softwares - they don't have any financial gain after paying lawyers to argue such a case as you're not making any revenue from this.
The flip side is that typically there is an additional clause - again from corporate firms who have over time dealt with these sorts of things enough to have most legal topics hammered out - in that you the designer may take copies of whatever work you performed at that office for personal use and promotion within your portfolio, assuming you provide credit to the firm itself.
The real life implication is whether your boss will see said entry out in the wild, whether he/she will even remember this particular iteration, and whether they will care one way or another if you have posted it without their permission and without their firm name mentioned.
At a small firm with no clauses signed - I'd be less worried about being sued and more concerned about creating a very uncomfortable situation with the boss should they come across it. If you have a decent relationship with the person, ask outright - but they will probably at that point want credit. If not, submit the project as is, crediting only yourself and hope they never see it. If you're concerned about being fired if caught, post the company name somewhere (very small) on the final entry.
Also important to note, many new firm owners begin their initial firm portfolio with heavy reliance on projects done at past firms. A simple line such as 'lead/sole designer; completed while at x firm' tends to satisfy all parties. This seems fair - it's a great design, you did it all yourself, ok. But would you have actually completed the whole thing on your own time on your own hardware/software and without any prompt/client/impetus/deadline? Probably not. But you're also probably not going to be sued or fired either.
Best of luck on the competition.
stevenas135
Dec 8, 17 11:57 am
Great this is just what I was looking for. Thank you so much. But this makes my life difficult...because I DID sign an intellectual property form, where everything I create at that office must stay at the office. However, if every single element of the design is changed subtly (ie details, formal reading) would they be able to do anything? This firm does not only architecture, but small scale prototyping and products, hence the IP disclosure. I decided I'm going to do this competition how I want though. Most likely, I will not win, however in the advent that it does happen...I'm bringing it to my big firm.
randomised
Dec 7, 17 3:57 am
OP, first try to win this competition and take it from there. You're bosses rejected "your" design for a reason, maybe it's not that good as you think it is and are blowing this all way out of proportion. Oh, and change your username.
stevenas135
Dec 8, 17 11:50 am
In the past two years since graduations, I've entered 4 competitions. The first one, I won. It got built already because its small scale. The second one, we lost. But we won an AIA Design award for. The third, I lost. But I got invited to collaborate with Harvard on. The 4th one, second place. I can swear I've seen you on Archinect since the days I was in community college before I even attended an accredited program. Maybe if you spent your time working your ass-off, you wouldn't have time to talk shit on every singe thread of this website. So sit down. Think before you post.
randomised
Dec 8, 17 12:32 pm
Talking shit? Thanks, or cheers...I see a theme emerging with your usernames, alcohol and already been used, like a wet napkin. I'm sure I've seen a Johnny Walker already on here before. Not very original, once again, hope your competition entries are more original than that.
randomised
Dec 10, 17 1:10 pm
You saw onebillionbeats somewhere and got inspired ;)
3tk
Dec 7, 17 4:40 pm
Depends on similarity and brand value - design violation lawsuits are notoriously difficult to pursue, some are just for spite (to make the accused spend tie and money). One recent successful one was Louboutin for its red soled shoes (with contrasting upper color). Can't say architecture can be so branded. General design ideas are so loose and many forms generic enough it's hard to say the uniqueness is so valuable to the value.
Hello,
I have a tricky question for you guys. So I was working at an office developing a design for an A-framed roof. I went through several design options and developed a scheme on my own that the principle did not necessarily ask for. Now, I'm working on a new project for a competition and would like to use this same formal language, however more refined and in-detail.
Could they sue me for using the same kind of form that I developed at that office? Honestly, its an A-frame roof with a spin that I put on it. But with these guys, I can't be too careful. They could try to smite me.
But for instance, when people leave Steven Holl's office, many of them take away a very strong formal influences from him to their new offices. Mr. Holl is probably a good guy and does not need to sue people over these kind of things. However other people are not.
Let me know what you guys think...
Ask a patent attorney, but my guess...No. Sue for what? to sue you need to prove harm. What tangible financial harm has been done by x using a similar roof as y? If your previous client was upset, then maybe, but you personally haven't lost anything. It's also impossible/difficult to prove that the other person didn't have the same idea. I've had many many ideas that I later find have been done before...Design is a process of discovery, and one path usually leads to another commonly found path. The pyramid for instance was invented many times by different cultures with no contact. The column as well. The thing with architecture is that it's not a product, and your marketability "supply" isn't really affected the same as it would if you had a product that was copied and sold along side yours.
The whole notion that you wouldn't be able to borrow from architecture which came before seems just silly to me.
The whole notion that someone would avoid acknowledging borrowing from other architecture seems silly to me.
We all borrow, all the time. It's what architects do. And it's ok. That's how good architecture happens.
It's also how bad architecture happens.
I'd much rather have architects of average or marginal talent borrowing from great buildings and great architects, than trying to be innovative, and falling short. The world would be a better place.
Depends on what you borrow and how you use it. Sturgeon's Law applies here. Then there is the matter of defining "talent".
I should sue you for stealing my username.
Exactly!
for the record dude, I had that username in like 2011 but changed it because its too egotistic
will change, because I can't seem to get away from you dimwits
Based on your description it's highly unlikely the design would qualify for a patent. It would if it was considered an invention, so if this system you've devised has a unique way of handling loads etc, and of course if such a system has not already been patented. More likely it would fall under copyright as most architectural works do. However it would take an inordinate amount of time, labor etc to research every architectural design for copyright infringement same as it would to file every drawing set for being *slightly* unique. Usually the existing conditions alone create an argument that there is an inherent difference in the design to avoid any frivolous lawsuits.
The real question at hand to OP is less about this design being unique and whether the firm at which it was developed has any specific clauses in their employment contract dictating what can and cannot be done with work performed while on the clock and using their equipment/software. Typically large firms have a boiler plate agreement all employees must sign which clearly states any and all work performed on company time and or on company property automatically becomes the intellectual property of the company. This is completely separate from whether or not this particular iteration was built or shown to a client.
If you are at a smaller firm they usually do not have such clauses though some do. Your safest bet is to read through any onboarding documents you may have signed. If you signed nothing, and especially if there are no monies to be made from this competition entry (I'm guessing zero to very little is the amount), there is likely little reason to think the firm owner will sue you. Even if they had grounds - which they could in that it was done on time they'd paid you for and on their softwares - they don't have any financial gain after paying lawyers to argue such a case as you're not making any revenue from this.
The flip side is that typically there is an additional clause - again from corporate firms who have over time dealt with these sorts of things enough to have most legal topics hammered out - in that you the designer may take copies of whatever work you performed at that office for personal use and promotion within your portfolio, assuming you provide credit to the firm itself.
The real life implication is whether your boss will see said entry out in the wild, whether he/she will even remember this particular iteration, and whether they will care one way or another if you have posted it without their permission and without their firm name mentioned.
At a small firm with no clauses signed - I'd be less worried about being sued and more concerned about creating a very uncomfortable situation with the boss should they come across it. If you have a decent relationship with the person, ask outright - but they will probably at that point want credit. If not, submit the project as is, crediting only yourself and hope they never see it. If you're concerned about being fired if caught, post the company name somewhere (very small) on the final entry.
Also important to note, many new firm owners begin their initial firm portfolio with heavy reliance on projects done at past firms. A simple line such as 'lead/sole designer; completed while at x firm' tends to satisfy all parties. This seems fair - it's a great design, you did it all yourself, ok. But would you have actually completed the whole thing on your own time on your own hardware/software and without any prompt/client/impetus/deadline? Probably not. But you're also probably not going to be sued or fired either.
Best of luck on the competition.
Great this is just what I was looking for. Thank you so much. But this makes my life difficult...because I DID sign an intellectual property form, where everything I create at that office must stay at the office. However, if every single element of the design is changed subtly (ie details, formal reading) would they be able to do anything? This firm does not only architecture, but small scale prototyping and products, hence the IP disclosure. I decided I'm going to do this competition how I want though. Most likely, I will not win, however in the advent that it does happen...I'm bringing it to my big firm.
OP, first try to win this competition and take it from there. You're bosses rejected "your" design for a reason, maybe it's not that good as you think it is and are blowing this all way out of proportion. Oh, and change your username.
In the past two years since graduations, I've entered 4 competitions. The first one, I won. It got built already because its small scale. The second one, we lost. But we won an AIA Design award for. The third, I lost. But I got invited to collaborate with Harvard on. The 4th one, second place. I can swear I've seen you on Archinect since the days I was in community college before I even attended an accredited program. Maybe if you spent your time working your ass-off, you wouldn't have time to talk shit on every singe thread of this website. So sit down. Think before you post.
Talking shit? Thanks, or cheers...I see a theme emerging with your usernames, alcohol and already been used, like a wet napkin. I'm sure I've seen a Johnny Walker already on here before. Not very original, once again, hope your competition entries are more original than that.
You saw onebillionbeats somewhere and got inspired ;)
Depends on similarity and brand value - design violation lawsuits are notoriously difficult to pursue, some are just for spite (to make the accused spend tie and money). One recent successful one was Louboutin for its red soled shoes (with contrasting upper color). Can't say architecture can be so branded. General design ideas are so loose and many forms generic enough it's hard to say the uniqueness is so valuable to the value.
This is very helpful, thanks guys!
You're welcome! Always here to help.