I'm working on an addition to a stone building that has uneven stone faces. I'd like to run storefront or curtain wall into it perpendicularly. I've seen a lot of old historic stone buildings with glazing frames that run right into it. Does anyone here have some details or advice that they could share? I'm guessing that in some of the cases i've seen they actually cut a long vertical 5" wide slot out of the stone, but that seems like a lot of work. I'm thinking that jamb either gets packed out with a 2x that is bolted into the wall and covered with brake metal that returns into a vertical reglet joint or it gets packed out and stuffed with a foam expansion joint. The expansion joint seems like a cleaner/ less hassle solution, but i've never seen a detail for it.
Thanks.
mtdew
Jun 8, 17 2:53 pm
I would tapcon a 2x wood buck all around. Then install the wood or aluminum frame on it.Then use a casing trim to hide it. What you described of the window frame going set into the stone are really thin single pane picture windows. Closest to that would be something like Hope's or Brombel metal windows frames.
spiketwig
Jun 8, 17 5:02 pm
+1 on the wood buck and cladding. I don't think cutting out a slot is a good idea at all. But it will depend on the look you're going for. Just look for the masonry attachment details from any decent mfr - they all have pages and pages of reference material.
Miles Jaffe
Jun 8, 17 5:25 pm
but that seems like a lot of work
To detail or to build?
Is the stone veneered on masonry or integrally structural?
I want to keep the jamb against the stone as narrow as possible. This would be a 35 ft tall joint w/ either Kawneer 451 or 1600.
I think the stone is structural. This building was built in the 1800's. The first wythe is at least 4" thick. As far as my "lot of work" comment, I'm just wondering if there is a more elegant solution. Say it's packed out/ wood buck of maybe 5/4" board so that the deviations and board total about 1.5", then this is just stuffed with backer rod and sealant. or a foam expansion joint scribing casing too it would work but might be unnecessary.
JeromeS
Jun 8, 17 7:05 pm
Wood buck! What is this, a Crown Chicken! What about a steel shape- anchored to the stone, behind your storefront. Allow for a reveal and seal frame to the steel.
Miles Jaffe
Jun 8, 17 7:27 pm
Make sure you have structure, cut out the stone, use galvanized steel to frame. Recess the frame, nothing sexier than eliminating the middleman.
z6jbishop
Jun 13, 17 12:07 pm
Yep, a monolithic frame to seal to is ideal, then detail the frame to the weather barrier beyond the stone. A beauty bead can hide this if necessary.
mightyaa
Jun 8, 17 8:33 pm
Just designed this on a very uneven stacked stone wall. I poured a concrete pilaster to give me a nice straight edge to work with and connect to. I did contemplate a grout set steel plate and/or masonry with grout pack to give a straight edge to work with; but the concrete worked better aesthetically with everything else going on.
mightyaa
Jun 8, 17 8:40 pm
Oh... if you want something cleaner, you could saw cut a joint to a couple inches deep, take a angle and slip one edge in. A variation could be setting a nailer in grout and using the slot to grout in the metal flash or snap cap piece.
If you need super clean (and don't have a budget), just use matching stone and have them stitch it in every third coarse to anchor. Your new stone can have a nice cut edge to attach to.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 9, 17 6:15 am
4" caulk joint.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 9, 17 8:45 am
I'm surprised no one has asked where the location of the building is, the one indicated is in Minneapolis, and it would be easy to call RSP and ask how they were able to resolve all of the thermal break issues, and the uneven surface.
Miles Jaffe
Jun 9, 17 9:29 am
Thermal break in an 1800's masonry building. Now that's funny.
mightyaa
Jun 9, 17 10:58 am
:)
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 9, 17 5:04 pm
Miles, I'm suggesting the use of a steel frame might be problematic, depending on the environment.
Miles Jaffe
Jun 9, 17 5:10 pm
I don't disagree. Galvanic action is a bitch, thus the galvanized.
Mightyaa's solution is clearly the best. He probably spent more than 12 seconds thinking about it.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 9, 17 6:17 pm
True.
your conscience
Jun 9, 17 11:59 pm
god forbid anybody does any work. just cut out the notch in the stone.
Koww
Jun 10, 17 3:59 am
Have you considered hiring a professional?
b3tadine[sutures]
Jun 10, 17 10:44 pm
I drove out to look at the referenced photo above. Most of the curtain wall, at the stone location, is covered by prefinished brake metal. The stone is cut into, brake metal tucked into the cut stone, and caulked to death; from edge of curtain wall to stone, the brake metal varies in depth from 4" to perhaps 8". One possibility is that they built the jamb using CMU, grouted solid, with vertical reinforcing, then attached to the CMU.
tcoyne
Jun 12, 17 10:04 am
Thanks for the constructive ideas I checked a few places out this weekend with similar conditions and it was always a thick 1" +/- bead of sealant. I think i'm going to go with a vertical reglet joint to tuck brake metal into.
I did end up finding a product that looks suitable for this condition in general.
I'm working on an addition to a stone building that has uneven stone faces. I'd like to run storefront or curtain wall into it perpendicularly. I've seen a lot of old historic stone buildings with glazing frames that run right into it. Does anyone here have some details or advice that they could share? I'm guessing that in some of the cases i've seen they actually cut a long vertical 5" wide slot out of the stone, but that seems like a lot of work. I'm thinking that jamb either gets packed out with a 2x that is bolted into the wall and covered with brake metal that returns into a vertical reglet joint or it gets packed out and stuffed with a foam expansion joint. The expansion joint seems like a cleaner/ less hassle solution, but i've never seen a detail for it.
Thanks.
I would tapcon a 2x wood buck all around. Then install the wood or aluminum frame on it.Then use a casing trim to hide it. What you described of the window frame going set into the stone are really thin single pane picture windows. Closest to that would be something like Hope's or Brombel metal windows frames.
+1 on the wood buck and cladding. I don't think cutting out a slot is a good idea at all. But it will depend on the look you're going for. Just look for the masonry attachment details from any decent mfr - they all have pages and pages of reference material.
but that seems like a lot of work
To detail or to build?
Is the stone veneered on masonry or integrally structural?
Here's an image of what I'm going for: https://www.nps.gov/tps/images/briefs/14-glass-entrance.jpg
I want to keep the jamb against the stone as narrow as possible. This would be a 35 ft tall joint w/ either Kawneer 451 or 1600.
I think the stone is structural. This building was built in the 1800's. The first wythe is at least 4" thick. As far as my "lot of work" comment, I'm just wondering if there is a more elegant solution. Say it's packed out/ wood buck of maybe 5/4" board so that the deviations and board total about 1.5", then this is just stuffed with backer rod and sealant. or a foam expansion joint scribing casing too it would work but might be unnecessary.
Wood buck! What is this, a Crown Chicken! What about a steel shape- anchored to the stone, behind your storefront. Allow for a reveal and seal frame to the steel.
Make sure you have structure, cut out the stone, use galvanized steel to frame. Recess the frame, nothing sexier than eliminating the middleman.
Yep, a monolithic frame to seal to is ideal, then detail the frame to the weather barrier beyond the stone. A beauty bead can hide this if necessary.
Just designed this on a very uneven stacked stone wall. I poured a concrete pilaster to give me a nice straight edge to work with and connect to. I did contemplate a grout set steel plate and/or masonry with grout pack to give a straight edge to work with; but the concrete worked better aesthetically with everything else going on.
Oh... if you want something cleaner, you could saw cut a joint to a couple inches deep, take a angle and slip one edge in. A variation could be setting a nailer in grout and using the slot to grout in the metal flash or snap cap piece.
If you need super clean (and don't have a budget), just use matching stone and have them stitch it in every third coarse to anchor. Your new stone can have a nice cut edge to attach to.
4" caulk joint.
I'm surprised no one has asked where the location of the building is, the one indicated is in Minneapolis, and it would be easy to call RSP and ask how they were able to resolve all of the thermal break issues, and the uneven surface.
Thermal break in an 1800's masonry building. Now that's funny.
:)
Miles, I'm suggesting the use of a steel frame might be problematic, depending on the environment.
I don't disagree. Galvanic action is a bitch, thus the galvanized. Mightyaa's solution is clearly the best. He probably spent more than 12 seconds thinking about it.
True.
god forbid anybody does any work. just cut out the notch in the stone.
Have you considered hiring a professional?
I drove out to look at the referenced photo above. Most of the curtain wall, at the stone location, is covered by prefinished brake metal. The stone is cut into, brake metal tucked into the cut stone, and caulked to death; from edge of curtain wall to stone, the brake metal varies in depth from 4" to perhaps 8". One possibility is that they built the jamb using CMU, grouted solid, with vertical reinforcing, then attached to the CMU.
Thanks for the constructive ideas I checked a few places out this weekend with similar conditions and it was always a thick 1" +/- bead of sealant. I think i'm going to go with a vertical reglet joint to tuck brake metal into.
I did end up finding a product that looks suitable for this condition in general.
https://www.emseal.com/product/seismic-colorseal-wall-expansion-joint/