We have a multi-family project which requires 2 exits. We have designed the project with 2 interior exit stairs as the exit components. The stairs serve four stories and are within 2 hour rated shafts. One of the stairs will empty into a vestibule, which in turn provides direct access to the exterior of the building. The second stair will empty into an open parking garage. The parking garage is at grade, open on three sides, and covered by the building. It is separated from the residential use by a 2 hour rated wall and ceiling. I tend to think that the exit stairs are discharging to the exterior since the open parking garage is in essence a parking lot given it's openness and the 2 hour separation from the building. Thoughts?
starrchitect
Mar 1, 17 9:51 pm
What does the building code say? Have you hired a registered architect to oversee this or spoken to him(if you have)? Mooching for professional advice is frowned upon on Archinect.
Having said that, does the "open parking garage" have direct access to the street w/o going back into the building? Will need to check your zoning on "open parking" requirements on top of the building code.
Seriously, hire a registered architect.
Non Sequitur
Mar 1, 17 10:48 pm
$300 per hour.
DTL DWG
Mar 1, 17 11:20 pm
NO.
JLC-1
Mar 2, 17 12:59 am
Half of florida is going to be under water in 20 years, make that discharge into a dock
natematt
Mar 2, 17 1:30 am
Max actually makes a good point with the gif.
I'm hardly an expert, but my knee-jerk reaction is that it doesn't make much sense. There is going to be stuff in the garage that may complicate exiting in an emergency, and also make it substantially more likely to be the origin point of a fire...
I'd say hire an architect, but for the project you described someone already has to be stamping those drawings...
randomised
Mar 2, 17 4:13 am
Title sounds like a film by Banksy's depressed architect cousin.
natematt
Mar 2, 17 11:17 am
^hahaha good one.
starrchitect
Mar 2, 17 1:35 pm
The OP reeks of another asshole developer that conned a lowly architect into doing a free schematic design set and is looking for second opinions without due compensation.
cadomestique
Mar 2, 17 1:39 pm
*If* you have a roof above, meaning it's not open to sky, then cannot be considered as "exterior"
That's evidence of poor planning and/or junior staff given more responsibilities than they can handle.
Solutions? One is redesign stair location and the second is provide a 2-hr rated assembly (corridor) from stair to exterior, at garage level.
starrchitect
Mar 2, 17 1:44 pm
Depends on zoning and its definition of "open parking". The parking may be in the rear and have a recreational roof to satisfy rear yard requirements, but this depends on applicable zoning.
Let's not give this chump any free advice. I'm 95% sure this is a developer looking for free shit as always.
JonathanLivingston
Mar 2, 17 2:19 pm
Believe it or not I have gotten away with this before but its not easy. It does depend on the jurisdiction and required a code appeal to make it work. Sounds like the building needs to be redesigned. My condition occurred because the building was on a very very steep site and was able to show it was the only feasible solution.
bowling_ball
Mar 3, 17 12:55 am
I'm doing this currently on one of my projects, but I'm in Canada. We are allowed to have 50% of our exits discharge horizontally into another building.
natematt
Mar 3, 17 1:13 am
^ He's not exiting into another building (I thought the same thing the first time I read it) he's exiting out of an open garage space under his building.
@cadomestique That's too general of a statement, you can exit into things like covered drives usually.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 3, 17 8:05 am
I recall doing this before. I could find the set of drawings to review any specifics but it would take at least 5 minutes...
s=r*(theta)
Mar 3, 17 10:11 am
in my mind you cannot exit through a storage space? doesn't a garage fall under storage? 2nd once you are in the exit, your next move is exit discharge open to the sky? so ending up in the garage open on 3 sides still underneath a building that could collapse on you seems like a red flag both ways
Non Sequitur
Mar 3, 17 10:28 am
^why does everyone assume the OP has a project in a jurisdiction that cares for life safety?
s=r*(theta)
Mar 3, 17 10:31 am
natematt
Mar 3, 17 11:29 am
S=r.
Does the building above really matter though? I've worked on and seen tons of buildings that exit under cantilevers, so it has to be at least conditionally acceptable.
SneakyPete
Mar 3, 17 11:44 am
So we go from telling OP "fuck off" to competing to see who can answer the question for free in less than a day?
s=r*(theta)
Mar 3, 17 11:47 am
^ How I interpret the IBC defining the means of egress, once you are in the exit (2hr stair shaft), you must leave the exit into an acceptable discharge or (in my mind key word is "public way"). discharging into a private garage which would be considered a storage area opened on 3 ends underneath a building above on fire doesn't seem code compliant of the top of my head per 2012 IBC
mightyaa
Mar 3, 17 11:57 am
No; per IBC. You can't discharge through another room that is a higher hazard. You'll need a exit corridor to get them out to the "public way". It might be worth a discussion with the plans reviewer though; they can often be really liberal with residential uses and may just require you to stripe or designate the exit pathway where it isn't in conflict with a drive or parking. Essentially, Chapter 1 allows them to waive code requirements they believe aren't creating a issue.
Non Sequitur
Mar 3, 17 12:03 pm
My building code code specifically permits exiting through an open-air garage (with roof and open on 3 sides) but with several limitations on travel distance, alternative paths, parking restrictions, etc.
s=r*(theta)
Mar 3, 17 12:06 pm
^ mightyaa, i like the beginning of your take but, its a multi-fam bldg that is 4 stories so when you say residential....... uhhhhhhhhh you lost me
mightyaa
Mar 3, 17 2:37 pm
It's a residential use. R2 I think. So it is IBC, not IRC.
Locally, permit reviewers here sometimes give you some slack if it's multi-family condo versus apartment/motel/dorm where people come and go that may not be familiar with the layout. Sort of the idea that if you live there a few years, should a emergency happen, you have the layout in your head and can find your way out a lot easier than say a motel where you aren't familiar and somewhat transient. It's also somewhat dependent on what the garage looks like and the clear pathway is visible and not terribly long. Big difference between finding your way around a solid bearing wall, or dumping out 20' away from a very visible sidewalk/street. I've been able to do that on commercial buildings and get it accepted.
jeiffert
Mar 3, 17 6:01 pm
That's a pretty weak argument for treating condos and apartments differently. Doesn't recognize occupants that recently moved in, guests, etc.
Seems just as questionable as leaving handrails and/or guardrails off of stairs because "the owners will get used to it".
starrchitect
Mar 3, 17 3:44 pm
@Sneakypete
And this is why architects are so poorly paid. Not bright enough to realize their knowledge has monetary value and too busy measuring each other's cocks to see the OP has more FREE second opinions now than he knows what to do with.
s=r*(theta)
Mar 3, 17 4:09 pm
Im sorry i just cost you a 50k, my bad man
brianbrown
Mar 25, 22 2:43 pm
Does anyone have any resources (excel spreadsheets) or guides that would help me calculate exit timing within a parking (garage) structure?
Non Sequitur
Mar 25, 22 3:03 pm
What does your local building code say about exiting calculations?
SneakyPete
Mar 25, 22 3:22 pm
In a car or on foot? One can get out with much less time than the other.
Non Sequitur
Mar 25, 22 4:27 pm
What about on horse?
SneakyPete
Mar 25, 22 5:17 pm
Trot, gallop, or canter?
Non Sequitur
Mar 25, 22 6:16 pm
I’m not sure about the speed, but does the horse and it’s rider count as 2 or 1 occupants?
SneakyPete
Mar 25, 22 8:34 pm
It's a surprise centaur!
SneakyPete
Mar 25, 22 8:35 pm
The surprise is that the front end is the horse!
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 25, 22 8:45 pm
I'm curious, what about an African Swallow, or European Swallow?
We have a multi-family project which requires 2 exits. We have designed the project with 2 interior exit stairs as the exit components. The stairs serve four stories and are within 2 hour rated shafts. One of the stairs will empty into a vestibule, which in turn provides direct access to the exterior of the building. The second stair will empty into an open parking garage. The parking garage is at grade, open on three sides, and covered by the building. It is separated from the residential use by a 2 hour rated wall and ceiling. I tend to think that the exit stairs are discharging to the exterior since the open parking garage is in essence a parking lot given it's openness and the 2 hour separation from the building. Thoughts?
What does the building code say? Have you hired a registered architect to oversee this or spoken to him(if you have)? Mooching for professional advice is frowned upon on Archinect.
Having said that, does the "open parking garage" have direct access to the street w/o going back into the building? Will need to check your zoning on "open parking" requirements on top of the building code.
Seriously, hire a registered architect.
$300 per hour.
NO.
Half of florida is going to be under water in 20 years, make that discharge into a dock
Max actually makes a good point with the gif.
I'm hardly an expert, but my knee-jerk reaction is that it doesn't make much sense. There is going to be stuff in the garage that may complicate exiting in an emergency, and also make it substantially more likely to be the origin point of a fire...
I'd say hire an architect, but for the project you described someone already has to be stamping those drawings...
Title sounds like a film by Banksy's depressed architect cousin.
^hahaha good one.
The OP reeks of another asshole developer that conned a lowly architect into doing a free schematic design set and is looking for second opinions without due compensation.
*If* you have a roof above, meaning it's not open to sky, then cannot be considered as "exterior"
That's evidence of poor planning and/or junior staff given more responsibilities than they can handle.
Solutions? One is redesign stair location and the second is provide a 2-hr rated assembly (corridor) from stair to exterior, at garage level.
Depends on zoning and its definition of "open parking". The parking may be in the rear and have a recreational roof to satisfy rear yard requirements, but this depends on applicable zoning.
Let's not give this chump any free advice. I'm 95% sure this is a developer looking for free shit as always.
Believe it or not I have gotten away with this before but its not easy. It does depend on the jurisdiction and required a code appeal to make it work. Sounds like the building needs to be redesigned. My condition occurred because the building was on a very very steep site and was able to show it was the only feasible solution.
I'm doing this currently on one of my projects, but I'm in Canada. We are allowed to have 50% of our exits discharge horizontally into another building.
^ He's not exiting into another building (I thought the same thing the first time I read it) he's exiting out of an open garage space under his building.
@cadomestique
That's too general of a statement, you can exit into things like covered drives usually.
I recall doing this before. I could find the set of drawings to review any specifics but it would take at least 5 minutes...
in my mind you cannot exit through a storage space? doesn't a garage fall under storage? 2nd once you are in the exit, your next move is exit discharge open to the sky? so ending up in the garage open on 3 sides still underneath a building that could collapse on you seems like a red flag both ways
^why does everyone assume the OP has a project in a jurisdiction that cares for life safety?
S=r.
Does the building above really matter though? I've worked on and seen tons of buildings that exit under cantilevers, so it has to be at least conditionally acceptable.
So we go from telling OP "fuck off" to competing to see who can answer the question for free in less than a day?
^ How I interpret the IBC defining the means of egress, once you are in the exit (2hr stair shaft), you must leave the exit into an acceptable discharge or (in my mind key word is "public way"). discharging into a private garage which would be considered a storage area opened on 3 ends underneath a building above on fire doesn't seem code compliant of the top of my head per 2012 IBC
No; per IBC. You can't discharge through another room that is a higher hazard. You'll need a exit corridor to get them out to the "public way". It might be worth a discussion with the plans reviewer though; they can often be really liberal with residential uses and may just require you to stripe or designate the exit pathway where it isn't in conflict with a drive or parking. Essentially, Chapter 1 allows them to waive code requirements they believe aren't creating a issue.
My building code code specifically permits exiting through an open-air garage (with roof and open on 3 sides) but with several limitations on travel distance, alternative paths, parking restrictions, etc.
^ mightyaa, i like the beginning of your take but, its a multi-fam bldg that is 4 stories so when you say residential....... uhhhhhhhhh you lost me
It's a residential use. R2 I think. So it is IBC, not IRC.
Locally, permit reviewers here sometimes give you some slack if it's multi-family condo versus apartment/motel/dorm where people come and go that may not be familiar with the layout. Sort of the idea that if you live there a few years, should a emergency happen, you have the layout in your head and can find your way out a lot easier than say a motel where you aren't familiar and somewhat transient. It's also somewhat dependent on what the garage looks like and the clear pathway is visible and not terribly long. Big difference between finding your way around a solid bearing wall, or dumping out 20' away from a very visible sidewalk/street. I've been able to do that on commercial buildings and get it accepted.
That's a pretty weak argument for treating condos and apartments differently. Doesn't recognize occupants that recently moved in, guests, etc. Seems just as questionable as leaving handrails and/or guardrails off of stairs because "the owners will get used to it".
@Sneakypete
And this is why architects are so poorly paid. Not bright enough to realize their knowledge has monetary value and too busy measuring each other's cocks to see the OP has more FREE second opinions now than he knows what to do with.
Im sorry i just cost you a 50k, my bad man
Does anyone have any resources (excel spreadsheets) or guides that would help me calculate exit timing within a parking (garage) structure?
What does your local building code say about exiting calculations?
In a car or on foot? One can get out with much less time than the other.
What about on horse?
Trot, gallop, or canter?
I’m not sure about the speed, but does the horse and it’s rider count as 2 or 1 occupants?
It's a surprise centaur!
The surprise is that the front end is the horse!
I'm curious, what about an African Swallow, or European Swallow?
Laden or unladen?