Does anyone know if this cheat sheet is consistent with ANSI A117.1?
/ does anyone have their own cheat sheet they use for ADA dimensions / diagrams?
SneakyPete
Jan 31, 17 11:51 am
ANSI is pretty clear. I cut and paste the diagrams I need directly from the code if I want a quick reference. I also tend to cringe when I see people using custom cheat sheets and books like DK Chings illustrated building code. Generally it's at LEAST one code cycle out of date, never has any amendments or errata, and moves you one more possible interpretation error towards a lawsuit.
Learn the code as it's written. You'll be more valuable to your firm, the profession, and the general public.
s=r*(theta)
Jan 31, 17 12:00 pm
YES! it called the ANSI A117.1 latest book
poop876
Jan 31, 17 2:15 pm
We have two sheets in every set covering almost entire ANSI that we reference just in case we miss it somewhere.
johnshoe
Jan 31, 17 5:07 pm
Thanks, I guess I'll stick to the text.
b3tadine[sutures]
Jan 31, 17 9:31 pm
Check your state too.
senjohnblutarsky
Feb 1, 17 10:06 am
There is no need for a cheat sheet. Open Adobe, just the search function. Type in what you're after and go to town.
x intern
Feb 1, 17 10:19 am
I have never seen having this at the front of a drawing set prevent a change order if the plan/detail was wrong. Has anyone else? I've debated removing it. Might as well stick the ADA guide lines in the specs
Everyday Intern
Feb 1, 17 11:08 am
We have two sheets in every set covering almost entire ANSI that we reference just in case we miss it somewhere.
What a waste of paper and potential area of conflict that the contractor can point to as a way of 'proving' the architect doesn't know what they are doing. I'd love to hear stories of how this has saved you. I can't imagine a contractor saying, "Oh right. Those drawings that are in every set that you never change ... I'm supposed to trust them over the drawings you drew specifically for this project? You know, the specific drawings you drew that didn't follow your copied and pasted sheets? Well, I guess I figured that since you were the architect you were supposed to figure out how to make your design code compliant. Silly me, I guess I'll eat this change order and pay better attention next time."
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 1, 17 11:12 am
Yeah, I never knew anyone who read those sheets... especially the contractor.
x intern
Feb 1, 17 12:07 pm
I've been considering having a mounting height sheet for everything to keep from having to draw endless interior elevations of restrooms. We haven't jumped to bim yet though I guess it's all magic now.
senjohnblutarsky
Feb 1, 17 12:29 pm
I have actually used a typical accessible toilet accessories elevation to get the vertical grab bars installed. No one showed them on plans. Weren't called out or scheduled. But, the detail was labeled typical, and showed the vertical grab bar.
poop876
Feb 1, 17 12:57 pm
Most architects I know have those sheets. I guess you haven't' been around too long to cover your ass for litigation purposes. Contractors scale drawings, architects modify dimensions. See!
Or perhaps you draw toilet elevations as your daily job duty, in that case I understand.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 1, 17 1:05 pm
Mounting heights for toilet accessories are fine. But two sheets of CYA ADA stuff means you're lazy. Do you update it when you are in a different jurisdiction? For different types of jobs, residential or commercial or institutional for instance? Or do you have all of it together? Or a set of CYA's for each? Do you put parking information on interiors jobs? Maybe you do tdhe same project in the same city over and over again?
poop876
Feb 1, 17 1:14 pm
Most of the time they are different, reduced, altered per project, but we have two sheets designated to cover critical items. Not necessarily full sheets, but it's paper and I will not try to rearrange details to save paper as it will probably cost more than a sheet of paper.
Nothing lazy about it just preference and experience.
x intern
Feb 1, 17 1:16 pm
I do all the drawings to build a building or at least review them. If you've never done a school you wouldn't know there are multiple heights to mount almost everything based on the primary user. A rural K-8 school has 4 different mounting heights for almost everything.
If you are getting sued for ada clearances you might want to look for another profession.
poop876
Feb 1, 17 1:23 pm
Oh those serial ADA lawsuit attorneys.
x intern
Feb 1, 17 1:28 pm
We have state enforcement in Texas. We get to pay out of pocket right away if we screw up.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 1, 17 1:31 pm
Never been sued for ADA, nor any of the firms I worked for as far as I know. Have worked on a huge range of projects in several states... pre-schools are different than jails, etc. Construction documents are supposed to be clear and concise and not have redundancies or conflicting information. I think there is a cost there. Contractors pick up on that and charge for it in my experience. They do a CYA too and it costs your client money.
Everyday Intern
Feb 1, 17 3:06 pm
^ this
poop876
Feb 1, 17 3:38 pm
Depends where on the food chain you are and need to know basis comes into play.
None of the interns that work for me know that we are being dragged into a lawsuit because an oven tipped over and killed an older lady. The project was completed in 2003.
CD's are SUPPOSED to be clear, but show me a set that is 100% like that!
I guess EI and you never got an adjudication order. Hilarious. Now get back to your bathroom elevations.
s=r*(theta)
Feb 1, 17 3:43 pm
I dont even bother with ADA, I typically go straight to ansi, its more stringent than ADA and referenced in the ibc over ada in certain sections.
did work on a government housing project once were we where req'd to use UFAS.
that said, ive never heard of someone getting sued, but I am aware of situations were inspections would not release c/o due to urinal was an 1" or so out of ansi req'd height, and we have had a project come in the office because client was physically disable and felt previous architect was not as sensitive to "universal design"
I think its funny to jus slap random details on drawings to cover your behind though. hahah
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 1, 17 4:21 pm
I don't even do CD's. I just make one page that says: Create the design in my head and abide by all laws and regulations while doing so. Call if you have questions. -- Feel free to steal that idea. Or get back to your copy and pasting.
Everyday Intern
Feb 1, 17 4:26 pm
Depends where on the food chain you are and need to know basis comes into play.
...
CD's are SUPPOSED to be clear, but show me a set that is 100% like that!
I guess EI and you never got an adjudication order. Hilarious. Now get back to your bathroom elevations.
I'm high enough on the food chain to be notified of all the (pending) litigation for all the projects that I am involved in. Nothing hilarious about it. Stuff happens and lawyers get involved ... sometimes people die. I've still never seen a few random pages of details save anyone from litigation. At best they are all coordinated and they are unnecessary. At worst they are in conflict with other portions of the drawings and make things unnecessarily confusing prompting change orders, RFIs, ASIs, extra cost, extra time, lost fees, lost profit, etc. If you understood this, you'd be a lot closer to that 100% mark of perfection. And no, I'm not saying you have to be perfect, but you should at least understand the principles of good documentation and make an attempt.
Sorry, I don't have any bathroom elevations to get back to. Haven't since the day I started working here. It's cute though that that's all you think an intern is good for. Maybe if you valued them a little more, and showed them how to design/draw to meet code, they wouldn't keep screwing up the details and make you feel like you need a couple of sheets to sort out all the problems they get you into. Of course, that would mean that you'd need to understand how to design/draw to meet code as well, but all you seem to know is how to copy and paste some details and treat your interns like poop (is that where your name comes from?).
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 1, 17 5:36 pm
I'm curious as to how you are being sued for an oven tipping over and how the ADA cover all sheets will help prevent this in the future, does it include standard non-tipping details for standard ovens?... if you care to explain, poop.
s=r*(theta)
Feb 1, 17 6:21 pm
"Create the design in my head and abide by all laws and regulations while doing so"
I tried this before, and didnt go so well for me :-(
"I'm curious as to how you are being sued for an oven tipping over and how the ADA cover all sheets will help prevent this in the future"
Tinitt, you and me both
Everyday Intern
Feb 1, 17 6:26 pm
My assumption is poop either isn't describing the case properly, doesn't understand the case, or needs a better lawyer. Anti-tip brackets have been required by UL since 1991. Any range that was UL listed and installed correctly after 1991 shouldn't be an issue. If the product was installed incorrectly, its the installer's issue, not the architect's. That doesn't stop the architect from getting dragged into the suit, but it should be pretty easy to get dismissed from it ... unless they did something stupid like instruct the contractor to not install the brackets, or specify a range that wasn't UL listed. Even then, you might still be off the hook. There are only a handful of states where the statute of repose would not have expired from a project completed in 2003, unlucky for poop if the project is subject to the laws of one of them.
poop876
Feb 1, 17 8:53 pm
EI, your last comment tells us you have no clue how litigation works let alone being part of any.
I learned it the hard way and it seems most of the firms I'm familiar, do the same thing.
SneakyPete
Feb 2, 17 10:44 am
Do go on. I'm interested.
Everyday Intern
Feb 2, 17 12:20 pm
Please enlighten me poop. How are you getting dragged into that lawsuit? How do the sheets of ADA details solve it? I'm such a naive, inexperienced intern ... I beg at your teat for the milk of your knowledge.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 3, 17 9:19 am
Must've gotten his sentencing and can't get Internet from the slammer.
DTL DWG
Feb 3, 17 8:41 pm
that was an interesting thread. above there is mention of standard CYA sheets and bids etc...I would like to add that also in a DOB exam if you have standard stuff that does not apply, you might get what seems like irrelevant nonsensical objections and then you remember - oh yeah, we do show an ADA kitchen detail, but we do not have a kitchen...if the examiner is feeling spunky they might ask you where your exhaust is on your ADA kitchen drawings, since its the only kitchen drawing in the set...
Does anyone know if this cheat sheet is consistent with ANSI A117.1?
/ does anyone have their own cheat sheet they use for ADA dimensions / diagrams?
ANSI is pretty clear. I cut and paste the diagrams I need directly from the code if I want a quick reference. I also tend to cringe when I see people using custom cheat sheets and books like DK Chings illustrated building code. Generally it's at LEAST one code cycle out of date, never has any amendments or errata, and moves you one more possible interpretation error towards a lawsuit.
Learn the code as it's written. You'll be more valuable to your firm, the profession, and the general public.
YES! it called the ANSI A117.1 latest book
We have two sheets in every set covering almost entire ANSI that we reference just in case we miss it somewhere.
Thanks, I guess I'll stick to the text.
Check your state too.
There is no need for a cheat sheet. Open Adobe, just the search function. Type in what you're after and go to town.
I have never seen having this at the front of a drawing set prevent a change order if the plan/detail was wrong. Has anyone else? I've debated removing it. Might as well stick the ADA guide lines in the specs
We have two sheets in every set covering almost entire ANSI that we reference just in case we miss it somewhere.
What a waste of paper and potential area of conflict that the contractor can point to as a way of 'proving' the architect doesn't know what they are doing. I'd love to hear stories of how this has saved you. I can't imagine a contractor saying, "Oh right. Those drawings that are in every set that you never change ... I'm supposed to trust them over the drawings you drew specifically for this project? You know, the specific drawings you drew that didn't follow your copied and pasted sheets? Well, I guess I figured that since you were the architect you were supposed to figure out how to make your design code compliant. Silly me, I guess I'll eat this change order and pay better attention next time."
Yeah, I never knew anyone who read those sheets... especially the contractor.
I've been considering having a mounting height sheet for everything to keep from having to draw endless interior elevations of restrooms. We haven't jumped to bim yet though I guess it's all magic now.
I have actually used a typical accessible toilet accessories elevation to get the vertical grab bars installed. No one showed them on plans. Weren't called out or scheduled. But, the detail was labeled typical, and showed the vertical grab bar.
Most architects I know have those sheets. I guess you haven't' been around too long to cover your ass for litigation purposes. Contractors scale drawings, architects modify dimensions. See!
Or perhaps you draw toilet elevations as your daily job duty, in that case I understand.
Mounting heights for toilet accessories are fine. But two sheets of CYA ADA stuff means you're lazy. Do you update it when you are in a different jurisdiction? For different types of jobs, residential or commercial or institutional for instance? Or do you have all of it together? Or a set of CYA's for each? Do you put parking information on interiors jobs? Maybe you do tdhe same project in the same city over and over again?
Most of the time they are different, reduced, altered per project, but we have two sheets designated to cover critical items. Not necessarily full sheets, but it's paper and I will not try to rearrange details to save paper as it will probably cost more than a sheet of paper.
Nothing lazy about it just preference and experience.
I do all the drawings to build a building or at least review them. If you've never done a school you wouldn't know there are multiple heights to mount almost everything based on the primary user. A rural K-8 school has 4 different mounting heights for almost everything.
If you are getting sued for ada clearances you might want to look for another profession.
Oh those serial ADA lawsuit attorneys.
We have state enforcement in Texas. We get to pay out of pocket right away if we screw up.
Never been sued for ADA, nor any of the firms I worked for as far as I know. Have worked on a huge range of projects in several states... pre-schools are different than jails, etc. Construction documents are supposed to be clear and concise and not have redundancies or conflicting information. I think there is a cost there. Contractors pick up on that and charge for it in my experience. They do a CYA too and it costs your client money.
^ this
Depends where on the food chain you are and need to know basis comes into play.
None of the interns that work for me know that we are being dragged into a lawsuit because an oven tipped over and killed an older lady. The project was completed in 2003.
CD's are SUPPOSED to be clear, but show me a set that is 100% like that!
I guess EI and you never got an adjudication order. Hilarious. Now get back to your bathroom elevations.
I dont even bother with ADA, I typically go straight to ansi, its more stringent than ADA and referenced in the ibc over ada in certain sections.
did work on a government housing project once were we where req'd to use UFAS.
that said, ive never heard of someone getting sued, but I am aware of situations were inspections would not release c/o due to urinal was an 1" or so out of ansi req'd height, and we have had a project come in the office because client was physically disable and felt previous architect was not as sensitive to "universal design"
I think its funny to jus slap random details on drawings to cover your behind though. hahah
I don't even do CD's. I just make one page that says: Create the design in my head and abide by all laws and regulations while doing so. Call if you have questions. -- Feel free to steal that idea. Or get back to your copy and pasting.
Depends where on the food chain you are and need to know basis comes into play.
...
CD's are SUPPOSED to be clear, but show me a set that is 100% like that!
I guess EI and you never got an adjudication order. Hilarious. Now get back to your bathroom elevations.
I'm high enough on the food chain to be notified of all the (pending) litigation for all the projects that I am involved in. Nothing hilarious about it. Stuff happens and lawyers get involved ... sometimes people die. I've still never seen a few random pages of details save anyone from litigation. At best they are all coordinated and they are unnecessary. At worst they are in conflict with other portions of the drawings and make things unnecessarily confusing prompting change orders, RFIs, ASIs, extra cost, extra time, lost fees, lost profit, etc. If you understood this, you'd be a lot closer to that 100% mark of perfection. And no, I'm not saying you have to be perfect, but you should at least understand the principles of good documentation and make an attempt.
Sorry, I don't have any bathroom elevations to get back to. Haven't since the day I started working here. It's cute though that that's all you think an intern is good for. Maybe if you valued them a little more, and showed them how to design/draw to meet code, they wouldn't keep screwing up the details and make you feel like you need a couple of sheets to sort out all the problems they get you into. Of course, that would mean that you'd need to understand how to design/draw to meet code as well, but all you seem to know is how to copy and paste some details and treat your interns like poop (is that where your name comes from?).
I'm curious as to how you are being sued for an oven tipping over and how the ADA cover all sheets will help prevent this in the future, does it include standard non-tipping details for standard ovens?... if you care to explain, poop.
"Create the design in my head and abide by all laws and regulations while doing so"
I tried this before, and didnt go so well for me :-(
"I'm curious as to how you are being sued for an oven tipping over and how the ADA cover all sheets will help prevent this in the future"
Tinitt, you and me both
My assumption is poop either isn't describing the case properly, doesn't understand the case, or needs a better lawyer. Anti-tip brackets have been required by UL since 1991. Any range that was UL listed and installed correctly after 1991 shouldn't be an issue. If the product was installed incorrectly, its the installer's issue, not the architect's. That doesn't stop the architect from getting dragged into the suit, but it should be pretty easy to get dismissed from it ... unless they did something stupid like instruct the contractor to not install the brackets, or specify a range that wasn't UL listed. Even then, you might still be off the hook. There are only a handful of states where the statute of repose would not have expired from a project completed in 2003, unlucky for poop if the project is subject to the laws of one of them.
EI, your last comment tells us you have no clue how litigation works let alone being part of any.
I learned it the hard way and it seems most of the firms I'm familiar, do the same thing.
Do go on. I'm interested.
Please enlighten me poop. How are you getting dragged into that lawsuit? How do the sheets of ADA details solve it? I'm such a naive, inexperienced intern ... I beg at your teat for the milk of your knowledge.
Must've gotten his sentencing and can't get Internet from the slammer.
that was an interesting thread. above there is mention of standard CYA sheets and bids etc...I would like to add that also in a DOB exam if you have standard stuff that does not apply, you might get what seems like irrelevant nonsensical objections and then you remember - oh yeah, we do show an ADA kitchen detail, but we do not have a kitchen...if the examiner is feeling spunky they might ask you where your exhaust is on your ADA kitchen drawings, since its the only kitchen drawing in the set...
Rick, your popcorn has gone stale.