I took drafting in 8th grade in the middle of nowhere in Mississippi and I learned lineweights so it's not some big mystery. If you pick up any technical manual for a refrigerator or whatever you will see nice lineweights but for some reason building industry contractors seem to have forgotten this vital aspect of graphic communication.
Non Sequitur
Dec 12, 16 9:01 pm
Not really. Perhaps you just with very shifty contractors... Or you produce shitty CDs and blame the contractor when they can't read what you scribbled.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 12, 16 9:07 pm
Hatches, we don't need no stinking hatches.
Seriously, hatches without a key, are like fish on a bicycle.
citizen
Dec 13, 16 12:02 am
I've noticed they're pretty good with question marks, though.
senjohnblutarsky
Dec 13, 16 8:07 am
Ever have a contractor quantify materials based on your hatch? There is a reason I put a note on my drawings stating hatches are for materials identification purposes only, and are not intended for use in quantification of materials.
x-jla
Dec 8, 20 8:36 pm
I use hatches all of the time to quantify materials in CAD. It’s always been accurate as long as the drawing is accurate.
Non Sequitur
Dec 13, 16 8:20 am
^Yes
I've heard of contractors in some of my office's project assume the hatch overruled the wall assembly legend / tags simply because the intern felt cute and used a standard concrete block hatch for a non block wall. Also, on the subject of hatches... who in their right-mind would hatch a ceiling grid... or a 4"x4" floor tile pattern? or limestone block wall elevation?
The worst ones are int-des floor finish plans with an average of 6 to 10 different hatches. What's this zigzag and dots thing mean? what about all these littles "+"?
I had one very large downtown office building in construction a few years back where we, for LEED purposes, coloured certain parking spaces in the CDs according for carpool & charging stations. The contractor took the plans to the paint store and scanned the solid colour fill and painted the spots exactly as shown... eventhough no mention of paint for those spaces was even specified (we had signs made)... there was even as SI for the painting provided earlier. I giggled like a school girl everytime I passed by those bright orange and green parking spaces.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 8, 20 7:19 pm
Bump
Everyday Architect
Dec 8, 20 8:44 pm
I feel like some comments got nuked from the thread. My rant below seems a little out of place based on what is left. I'll assume Balkins was all over this back in the day. Either way, I still stand by my comments/rants. Good times.
x intern
Dec 13, 16 9:14 am
That's good stuff. I worked for a guy who used key notes for interior colors. Got the colors mixed up. All interior walls were painted Kelly green with the headers in white. The entire addition. Unfortunately he didn't even take pics but WTF who wouldn't call on something like that.
Everyday Intern
Dec 13, 16 11:57 am
Just a couple of comments and maybe a rant or two for this thread so far:
If you're relying on lineweights for anything other than drawing legibility, you're doing it wrong. What were you trying to represent that the contractor screwed up based on lineweights alone (pics or it didn't happen)? If you really need to distinguish something use a different linetype combined with a lineweight ... also annotate. Maybe that's not even the issue, maybe you're just annoyed that all their shop drawings look like they were done with a crayon.
Any contractor trying to to takeoffs from the drawing or model file the architect provides is stupid ... doubly stupid for doing based on hatches. Good contractors know that the files are rarely intended to be contract documents and don't rely on them for accuracy. Better contractors throw away the files the architect sends them and either pays people to recreate the models based on the contract documents, or makes the subs do it for their portions and then pays people to compile them and check for errors. The best architects understand this and don't even offer the files to the contractor.
x intern's example of the wrong colors ... exactly what should have happened. The contractor has every right to believe that what is in the documents is correct and they are contracted to build the building that way. If you don't trust that you can get the colors right every time, then put a mockup in your specs to approve final color selection on the actual surfaces that are to be painted in the final lighting conditions. If that's too much, then at least make the contractor submit shop drawings and paint chips.
Finally, it drives me crazy that we try to do too much for too many people in our CD sets. The CDs are for the contractor ... no one else. Why did someone need to color certain parking spaces on the drawings for LEED purposes? Was it so you could send that drawing to USGBC to document compliance with a LEED credit? What does that have to do with the contractor? If all you wanted was a sign showing it is a carpool or charging station parking space, you have that indicated with the signage in the documents. At most all you need is a callout with a leader on the plan pointing out which signs go where. In reality, that's probably all you needed to do with any documentation going to USGBC. But I'll agree the contractor was stupid to do what they did without any indication of the colors in the specs or a legend indicating that the hatch meant they needed to paint it. I'd giggle every time I walk by it too.
Non Sequitur
Dec 13, 16 12:34 pm
^On the LEED thing I mention above, it was a client (government) request. Project lasted from 2009 to 2014 so I can't really remember why it stayed on in CD phase. Still... I don't use colours as annotation tools anymore for that reason alone.
Everyday Intern
Dec 13, 16 1:51 pm
That's kind of my issue with it. Don't get me wrong, we still do it all the time in my office, but it bugs me every time. If the client requests a pretty diagram, make them a pretty diagram and be done with it. The contractor doesn't need the pretty diagram.
Worst offenders are the "permit sets." I point out stuff all the time that shouldn't be on the drawings, but are there because the city needs to see it for permitting. Since the city wouldn't even be bothered to wipe with a specification, even if they were forced to, there is nothing you can do about it but comply. I've only ever encountered one jurisdiction in my admittedly limited career that actually asks to see the specs. It surprised me so much that I had to double check that they really wanted the specs.
chigurh
Dec 13, 16 2:46 pm
Great idea - hire a contractor that throws away your architectural drawings.
Wilma Buttfit
Dec 13, 16 2:56 pm
I saw an extra tread built into a stair because the detail call-out looked like an extra tread. Glad it wasn't my mistake.
chigurh
Dec 13, 16 3:01 pm
.
apscoradiales
Dec 9, 20 1:06 pm
Classic - that's been around for decades.
Everyday Intern
Dec 13, 16 3:03 pm
Great idea - hire a contractor that throws away your architectural drawings.
chigurh, again you show your lack of reading comprehension skills. I never said anything about throwing away the architectural drawings. The drawings are the contract documents, the contractor is under contract to build the project by following them. Instead I said the better contractors throw away the drawing and model files (ie. CAD and BIM files) the architect sends them and they make their own based on the documents they are under contract to follow.
Non Sequitur
Dec 13, 16 8:41 pm
Strange thing, this discussion thread just sent me a pm with only "test" as content.
I took drafting in 8th grade in the middle of nowhere in Mississippi and I learned lineweights so it's not some big mystery. If you pick up any technical manual for a refrigerator or whatever you will see nice lineweights but for some reason building industry contractors seem to have forgotten this vital aspect of graphic communication.
Not really. Perhaps you just with very shifty contractors... Or you produce shitty CDs and blame the contractor when they can't read what you scribbled.
Hatches, we don't need no stinking hatches.
Seriously, hatches without a key, are like fish on a bicycle.
I've noticed they're pretty good with question marks, though.
Ever have a contractor quantify materials based on your hatch? There is a reason I put a note on my drawings stating hatches are for materials identification purposes only, and are not intended for use in quantification of materials.
I use hatches all of the time to quantify materials in CAD. It’s always been accurate as long as the drawing is accurate.
^Yes
I've heard of contractors in some of my office's project assume the hatch overruled the wall assembly legend / tags simply because the intern felt cute and used a standard concrete block hatch for a non block wall. Also, on the subject of hatches... who in their right-mind would hatch a ceiling grid... or a 4"x4" floor tile pattern? or limestone block wall elevation?
The worst ones are int-des floor finish plans with an average of 6 to 10 different hatches. What's this zigzag and dots thing mean? what about all these littles "+"?
I had one very large downtown office building in construction a few years back where we, for LEED purposes, coloured certain parking spaces in the CDs according for carpool & charging stations. The contractor took the plans to the paint store and scanned the solid colour fill and painted the spots exactly as shown... eventhough no mention of paint for those spaces was even specified (we had signs made)... there was even as SI for the painting provided earlier. I giggled like a school girl everytime I passed by those bright orange and green parking spaces.
Bump
I feel like some comments got nuked from the thread. My rant below seems a little out of place based on what is left. I'll assume Balkins was all over this back in the day. Either way, I still stand by my comments/rants. Good times.
That's good stuff. I worked for a guy who used key notes for interior colors. Got the colors mixed up. All interior walls were painted Kelly green with the headers in white. The entire addition. Unfortunately he didn't even take pics but WTF who wouldn't call on something like that.
Just a couple of comments and maybe a rant or two for this thread so far:
^On the LEED thing I mention above, it was a client (government) request. Project lasted from 2009 to 2014 so I can't really remember why it stayed on in CD phase. Still... I don't use colours as annotation tools anymore for that reason alone.
That's kind of my issue with it. Don't get me wrong, we still do it all the time in my office, but it bugs me every time. If the client requests a pretty diagram, make them a pretty diagram and be done with it. The contractor doesn't need the pretty diagram.
Worst offenders are the "permit sets." I point out stuff all the time that shouldn't be on the drawings, but are there because the city needs to see it for permitting. Since the city wouldn't even be bothered to wipe with a specification, even if they were forced to, there is nothing you can do about it but comply. I've only ever encountered one jurisdiction in my admittedly limited career that actually asks to see the specs. It surprised me so much that I had to double check that they really wanted the specs.
Great idea - hire a contractor that throws away your architectural drawings.
I saw an extra tread built into a stair because the detail call-out looked like an extra tread. Glad it wasn't my mistake.
.
Classic - that's been around for decades.
Great idea - hire a contractor that throws away your architectural drawings.
chigurh, again you show your lack of reading comprehension skills. I never said anything about throwing away the architectural drawings. The drawings are the contract documents, the contractor is under contract to build the project by following them. Instead I said the better contractors throw away the drawing and model files (ie. CAD and BIM files) the architect sends them and they make their own based on the documents they are under contract to follow.
Strange thing, this discussion thread just sent me a pm with only "test" as content.
Anyone else?