I've hopped around a few times so far in my early career (5 years now) and because of it have a pretty satisfactory salary of 72k in Los Angeles since there's apparently a short supply of people with my experience level. I show up on time, enjoy my work, my coworkers and the overall relaxed / good work life balance atmosphere at the firm I'm at and I'd love to be done with hopping around and actually stay put this time. However, with most of our economic indicators pointing at us being in the late stages of the business cycle I feel like with my salary I'll be first in the cross-hairs for a layoff if things go south. I'm pretty much just an advanced revit user / job technician (drafter) and I'm pursuing my license hoping that I'll be billed out at a higher rate and thus, justify my higher salary. It's been quite the difficult ride to get here though, laughable hourly wages, verbally and mentally abusive bosses, all the stories we all have had to deal with. I don't think I can do it all again though if I'm laid off again. The office in Virginia is having some issues because apparently they had a blip in work so they fired everyone who knew what they were doing but kept the cheapest people, so I think if that situation occurs down in LA, I'm screwed. Any advice on how to become part of the valued inner circle without brown nosing? I don't think that ever actually works too well anyway and we have a great non competitive atmosphere at work. Is it even possible and related to performance or does it really just come down to whose cheapest? The other people on my team are right out of school and pretty much just know some sketchup and adobe let alone understand a CD set. But who knows, thoughts?
quizzical
Dec 11, 16 9:51 pm
"they fired everyone who knew what they were doing but kept the cheapest people" -- well, that sort of thing does happen. However, enlightened, well-managed firms consider "the cheapest people" to be those who contribute a LOT relative to their cost.
You can't do much to guard against firms acting in an irrational manner -- my advice is to keep doing your job well, keep contributing at a high level and don't be apologetic about your compensation. You may not be bulletproof if a downturn happens, but you can always say that you did your job and you did it well. If your current firm can't see that, then another one will.
Also, it never hurts to establish, and maintain, strong personal relationships with the people one or two levels above you in the firm. This is not necessarily "brown nosing" (unless you go about it unwisely) and it can afford you some measure of protection since those individuals can see you both as a professional contributor and as a person they know, can trust and rely upon.
Finally, if the firm downsizes but you are kept on, it is likely that you may be asked to moderate your compensation. To the extent you can, start cutting down on your expenses now and start shoring up your savings -- this will give you more flexibility if the firm does present you with this unhappy adjustment in compensation.
Good luck.
natematt
Dec 11, 16 10:58 pm
What's really sad is that difference in compensation often doesn't even reflect difference in value. Often you have people who might be worth 2-3x as much to the firm getting a 15% pay premium, and when that puts a target on their back during a downturn, shame on the management.
I've seen personal favoritism have a lot to do with this, it's not even pay or skill sometimes.
DeTwan
Dec 12, 16 12:19 am
Recession on the horizon?
I thought consumer confidence is thur the roof with Trump's win...no?
senjohnblutarsky
Dec 12, 16 8:00 am
All you can do is strive to be valuable, but not expensive. If you're well compensated, then make sure you equal that value, if not exceed it.
Control what you can, and be ready to deal with what you can't.
Wilma Buttfit
Dec 12, 16 8:29 am
If you do get laid off you can use your unemployment benefits to help support your new adventures in self-employment. Could be your golden ticket.
I would start saving, learning new skills(Dynamo,Python, C#) become a Revit Ninja) - work late every night and on weekends - do other peoples work that they don't want to do -
thisisnotmyname
Dec 12, 16 12:19 pm
The bosses are seldom rational or just when it comes to picking who gets laid off. Personally, I've seen such decisions made based on favoritism, how much unpaid overtime you worked (i.e.: the slow poke who can't finish by 5:30pm each day ends up looking better than the people who worked faster), and family situation (i.e. the single people are laid off first and the ones with kids to feed get to stay).
You should take steps to sharpen your skills and do the best job you can at your current office. Get yourself licensed ASAP. Get involved in the AIA or other professional organizations so you can network with other firms that may hire you in the future if you do get laid off from your current job.
zonker
Dec 12, 16 12:45 pm
I've hopped around in architecture and a side trip to structural for 7 years solid - was out of work for 1 year in 09' - can't afford that again - may go back to structural doing BIM modeling - am more interested in job security than design - may even consider being a cad/BIM coordinator for MEC
gruen
Dec 12, 16 1:01 pm
My firm is slow right now-as we often are at this time of the year. The "maybe" projects would put us well ahead, but so far we are skating through on tiny stuff. If I don't land one or two big ones between now and end of January-I'm laying off.
kjdt
Dec 12, 16 1:34 pm
What's worked for me is to be the only one of my job description in the firm. It may be more difficult to be that when you only have a few years of experience though.
1. Be in a role that takes some true specialized expertise (not just a credential that others don't have, but actual skills and knowledge that others don't have.)
2. Make sure your specialized role is routinely billable Some people work very hard to become their firm's green guru or to be the ultimate renderer - but if the fabulous renderings are used nearly entirely for marketing purposes, or if the firm is partially subsidizing the green expert as overhead because the majority of its clients aren't sold on that value, then those experts will be expendable in lean times.
3. Be wisely busy. That means that if you have any choice or influence at all on what you do, you want to be busy on as many billable projects as practical - but not busy with overhead projects if you can avoid it at all. As tempting as it is to revamp a firm's BIM standards, or overhaul various other firm procedures, in most firms those are tasks that only happen in "down time", by people who can be spared from projects - so the mere fact of your involvement in such things offers you to the chopping block. There's also the problem that if you work on too many of these overhead projects then your resume starts to list them as your accomplishments - and if you're anything above entry-level, most other firms will also look at "created firm's CAD standards" or "managed the firm's product library" or "took on IT tasks" as a red flag that your last job had trouble identifying more useful things to do with you.
4. Don't develop a reputation as a delegator. It's important to delegate, and to learn to do it well - but if you're seen primarily as a middle man then you'll be a layoff target.
zonker
Dec 12, 16 2:07 pm
always do - never delegate - better to stay late and do it, then delegate your work away - also never end up on general office - that's death row - and don't be seen on architect or FB
Josh Mings
Dec 12, 16 2:17 pm
Xenakis, haven't you been laid off several times?
Your attitude pushes towards being used as a work horse and then thrown away.
Everyday Intern
Dec 12, 16 2:32 pm
If you never delegate you are seen as the person that can't trust anyone else to do their job (this builds resentment among your peers). Also, if you never delegate you aren't using the project team efficiently (again building resentment). Eventually the team will get tired of it and throw you under the bus.
What kjdt said is spot on: It's important to delegate, and to learn to do it well
zonker
Dec 12, 16 2:38 pm
Well Josh, I'm a work horse - that wasn't my original aspiration - but its my reality - and now with Trump, I need to set aside my architects aspiration and find a structural BIM modeler/coordinator job
kjdt
Dec 12, 16 3:02 pm
Yeah, it is important to delegate. I wasn't saying don't do it - I was saying don't do it to the exclusion of doing work yourself. Delegate when there are tasks that others will do better and/or significantly faster (but factor in the time for explanation of tasks and review of results). Also delegate when there is no possible way you'll have time to do everything in your pile, and others have time. But the last time a firm I was in experienced a large layoff (about 15% of staff), the most common denominator of those let go was that they were middle-managers who acted as pass-throughs of information. One of them was actually referred to throughout the office as "Mr. Delegation", because that's pretty much all the visible work that he did. I just meant: don't be him.
archi_dude
Dec 12, 16 3:17 pm
I think Norman probably provided the best answer here. How to be the client contact with only a few years experience and hidden back in the production area, that will be tough.
thisisnotmyname
Dec 12, 16 4:07 pm
@Gruen, We had a horribly slow summer/early fall due to clients sitting on their hands waiting for the election to play out. Things have picked up considerably since then. The world didn't end (at least not yet) and people decided to go ahead with projects.
JonathanLivingston
Dec 12, 16 5:06 pm
Being paid well should not be a cause for concern. Under performing is. A good employer pays his staff high enough that they have this exact fear and then strive to execute commiserate with their compensation. That's how you get optimum performance from people.
I try to structure and explain my high flat fee's this way too. We can cut your fee down but that means we are less motivated by your project then that of other projects willing to pay a premium. "This fee guarantees you are our top priority" has landed some of my highest paying gigs.
so the pressure you are feeling is good. you have positioned yourself correctly. Use it as motivation to do a good job. and always BE look for the next gig willing to pay a higher rate to become your top priority.
YAY CAPITALISM
thisisnotmyname
Dec 12, 16 5:16 pm
72K/yr doesn't seem excessive for the work the the OP does in LA.
zonker
Dec 12, 16 5:35 pm
archi_dude
I should be where you are I do production and 25% of my time is BIM/Cad Coordination which I hate - it burns my clock ti be doing sheet index when I should be doing design and details - but with a recession on the horizon, I have to do it.
3tk
Dec 12, 16 6:34 pm
Excel at what your job description is and be competent at the next rung up: nothing wrong with being paid well, we long as you're worth it to the office even if they take a few hits. Be a team player, make sure that everyone around you knows that, be frank with your boss if you start to see things turn (be wiling to 'help out' as needed to get new work in or otherwise help the firm).
If things get ugly, we'll all need to accommodate. Hopefully you're in some of the nicer places - I've known firms where partners took $0/yr for a couple of years in the recession and asked staff to cut salary in to stay (but shortened their work week to allow for them to take another job, then paid back the back pay for the portions over that cut time when the recovery happened)
archi_dude
Dec 13, 16 12:09 am
Thanks for the pep talk everyone! While easier said than done, I'll try to just focus on doing my best and not on negative future possibilities.
sameolddoctor
Dec 13, 16 3:30 am
72k is good pay? To be honest, for what you say you do, it's OK pay. I'm sure there are more people that make more than you and can be the targets before you.
s=r*(theta)
Dec 13, 16 10:28 am
Xenakis, how far away are yo from being licensed?
zonker
Dec 13, 16 11:17 am
Depending on how I progress through the AREs - 2 - 3 years - I'm taking classes at AIA-SF that prepare you for each test - they have this thing called the pact, where for 1g within 1 year, take all the classes and take all the tests - you get your 1g back - so in looking into their so called ARE boot camp
bowling_ball
Dec 13, 16 1:34 pm
Not to pick on Xenakis but he's been laid off more than most, yet doesn't seem to understand why. If you want to be valuable, be valuable to your clients. Ask to sit in on meetings, and transition into running meetings. Your bosses can't be everywhere at once, and you'll be seen as directly easing their workloads.
zonker
Dec 13, 16 2:07 pm
Bowling ball - that's not going to happen my office - not until I get licensed
My main objective is to do as much design work as possible and minimize the cad/bim coordinator grunt work - that burns my clock causing me to stay late to do my production and design work when 1/2 the day gets used up fixing sheet lists and other BIM stuff - here I am the BIM fixit man - everyone else here does design and production and leaves by 6 -
x-jla
Dec 13, 16 2:17 pm
You are where you allow yourself to be.
Everyday Intern
Dec 13, 16 2:23 pm
I read that and can't help but think that 1/2 your day is spent doing stuff that any recent grad with a little training would be able to handle. They may not do it as quickly as you do, but they could certainly do it for less money. That's a pretty big target when they look around and everyone else is mostly spending their time producing and designing. You've set yourself apart but in the wrong way.
If I'm seeing that everyone else with your level of experience isn't spending half their day fixing sheet indexes and BIM content, I start to wonder what's up with you that all your sheet indexes and BIM content get messed up and need all the fixing. The only way that looks good is if the entire office knows that they can't do what you do, and that it is necessary and vital to getting projects out the door. Even then, they might wonder that with a little effort they could learn to do it themselves.
Peter Normand
Dec 13, 16 2:37 pm
being part of the client contact team is important especially if you can deliver quickly when the client makes a change they think should be simple. But it is important to make your team look good to the client not just yourself.
How to do this if you are in the drafting dungeon?
Find RFPs and get permission to fill them out, it is like cold calling with clients. Few people enjoy this task but you can do this, with permission, and possibly land a project.
This is not easy work to do and can be very frustrating but that will make your job, if this becomes part of your job, much more valuable.
over and OUT
Peter N
s=r*(theta)
Dec 13, 16 3:25 pm
I agree strongly with Jla-x, in my opinion:
Construction knowledge + software ability + design ability + working well with others + code analysis + hard work + communication - excuse's and poor attiude = value.
in my mind its only a matter of experience where ones value goes up or down.
zonker
Dec 13, 16 4:03 pm
Everyday intern
I am called upon to do the BIM/cad coordinator stuff because everyone else is "too busy" on their design and production stuff and once people see you doing sheet index and sheet set up - guess who gets called?
zonker
Dec 13, 16 4:14 pm
See S=r*(theta) or read some of Chigurhs
Josh Mings
Dec 13, 16 4:32 pm
Oh that's a bad spot to be in Xenakis. You aren't doing yourself any favors there.
Non Sequitur
Dec 13, 16 5:50 pm
I get asked all the time for software related problems. I'll explain the solution but I'll not actually do the work. They are grown ups and can figure it out for themselves.
Everyday Intern
Dec 13, 16 5:54 pm
My point that you have set yourself apart but in the wrong way still stands. Your excuse as to why you are in the spot you are has nothing to do with the fact that you are there in a bad spot. If they were really too busy to do that work, they wouldn't be going home at a decent time. At some point you have to tell them to do their own grunt work ... their inefficient use of their time shouldn't make their problems yours.
Hi everybody,
I've hopped around a few times so far in my early career (5 years now) and because of it have a pretty satisfactory salary of 72k in Los Angeles since there's apparently a short supply of people with my experience level. I show up on time, enjoy my work, my coworkers and the overall relaxed / good work life balance atmosphere at the firm I'm at and I'd love to be done with hopping around and actually stay put this time. However, with most of our economic indicators pointing at us being in the late stages of the business cycle I feel like with my salary I'll be first in the cross-hairs for a layoff if things go south. I'm pretty much just an advanced revit user / job technician (drafter) and I'm pursuing my license hoping that I'll be billed out at a higher rate and thus, justify my higher salary. It's been quite the difficult ride to get here though, laughable hourly wages, verbally and mentally abusive bosses, all the stories we all have had to deal with. I don't think I can do it all again though if I'm laid off again. The office in Virginia is having some issues because apparently they had a blip in work so they fired everyone who knew what they were doing but kept the cheapest people, so I think if that situation occurs down in LA, I'm screwed. Any advice on how to become part of the valued inner circle without brown nosing? I don't think that ever actually works too well anyway and we have a great non competitive atmosphere at work. Is it even possible and related to performance or does it really just come down to whose cheapest? The other people on my team are right out of school and pretty much just know some sketchup and adobe let alone understand a CD set. But who knows, thoughts?
"they fired everyone who knew what they were doing but kept the cheapest people" -- well, that sort of thing does happen. However, enlightened, well-managed firms consider "the cheapest people" to be those who contribute a LOT relative to their cost.
You can't do much to guard against firms acting in an irrational manner -- my advice is to keep doing your job well, keep contributing at a high level and don't be apologetic about your compensation. You may not be bulletproof if a downturn happens, but you can always say that you did your job and you did it well. If your current firm can't see that, then another one will.
Also, it never hurts to establish, and maintain, strong personal relationships with the people one or two levels above you in the firm. This is not necessarily "brown nosing" (unless you go about it unwisely) and it can afford you some measure of protection since those individuals can see you both as a professional contributor and as a person they know, can trust and rely upon.
Finally, if the firm downsizes but you are kept on, it is likely that you may be asked to moderate your compensation. To the extent you can, start cutting down on your expenses now and start shoring up your savings -- this will give you more flexibility if the firm does present you with this unhappy adjustment in compensation.
Good luck.
What's really sad is that difference in compensation often doesn't even reflect difference in value. Often you have people who might be worth 2-3x as much to the firm getting a 15% pay premium, and when that puts a target on their back during a downturn, shame on the management.
I've seen personal favoritism have a lot to do with this, it's not even pay or skill sometimes.
Recession on the horizon?
I thought consumer confidence is thur the roof with Trump's win...no?
All you can do is strive to be valuable, but not expensive. If you're well compensated, then make sure you equal that value, if not exceed it.
Control what you can, and be ready to deal with what you can't.
If you do get laid off you can use your unemployment benefits to help support your new adventures in self-employment. Could be your golden ticket.
Be the client connection on a few key projects
With Trumps pick for treasury
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/trump-to-pick-mnuchin-for-treasury-secretary-231962
This DB will throw us into the next recession
I would start saving, learning new skills(Dynamo,Python, C#) become a Revit Ninja) - work late every night and on weekends - do other peoples work that they don't want to do -
The bosses are seldom rational or just when it comes to picking who gets laid off. Personally, I've seen such decisions made based on favoritism, how much unpaid overtime you worked (i.e.: the slow poke who can't finish by 5:30pm each day ends up looking better than the people who worked faster), and family situation (i.e. the single people are laid off first and the ones with kids to feed get to stay).
You should take steps to sharpen your skills and do the best job you can at your current office. Get yourself licensed ASAP. Get involved in the AIA or other professional organizations so you can network with other firms that may hire you in the future if you do get laid off from your current job.
I've hopped around in architecture and a side trip to structural for 7 years solid - was out of work for 1 year in 09' - can't afford that again - may go back to structural doing BIM modeling - am more interested in job security than design - may even consider being a cad/BIM coordinator for MEC
My firm is slow right now-as we often are at this time of the year. The "maybe" projects would put us well ahead, but so far we are skating through on tiny stuff. If I don't land one or two big ones between now and end of January-I'm laying off.
What's worked for me is to be the only one of my job description in the firm. It may be more difficult to be that when you only have a few years of experience though.
1. Be in a role that takes some true specialized expertise (not just a credential that others don't have, but actual skills and knowledge that others don't have.)
2. Make sure your specialized role is routinely billable Some people work very hard to become their firm's green guru or to be the ultimate renderer - but if the fabulous renderings are used nearly entirely for marketing purposes, or if the firm is partially subsidizing the green expert as overhead because the majority of its clients aren't sold on that value, then those experts will be expendable in lean times.
3. Be wisely busy. That means that if you have any choice or influence at all on what you do, you want to be busy on as many billable projects as practical - but not busy with overhead projects if you can avoid it at all. As tempting as it is to revamp a firm's BIM standards, or overhaul various other firm procedures, in most firms those are tasks that only happen in "down time", by people who can be spared from projects - so the mere fact of your involvement in such things offers you to the chopping block. There's also the problem that if you work on too many of these overhead projects then your resume starts to list them as your accomplishments - and if you're anything above entry-level, most other firms will also look at "created firm's CAD standards" or "managed the firm's product library" or "took on IT tasks" as a red flag that your last job had trouble identifying more useful things to do with you.
4. Don't develop a reputation as a delegator. It's important to delegate, and to learn to do it well - but if you're seen primarily as a middle man then you'll be a layoff target.
always do - never delegate - better to stay late and do it, then delegate your work away - also never end up on general office - that's death row - and don't be seen on architect or FB
Xenakis, haven't you been laid off several times?
Your attitude pushes towards being used as a work horse and then thrown away.
If you never delegate you are seen as the person that can't trust anyone else to do their job (this builds resentment among your peers). Also, if you never delegate you aren't using the project team efficiently (again building resentment). Eventually the team will get tired of it and throw you under the bus.
What kjdt said is spot on: It's important to delegate, and to learn to do it well
Well Josh, I'm a work horse - that wasn't my original aspiration - but its my reality - and now with Trump, I need to set aside my architects aspiration and find a structural BIM modeler/coordinator job
Yeah, it is important to delegate. I wasn't saying don't do it - I was saying don't do it to the exclusion of doing work yourself. Delegate when there are tasks that others will do better and/or significantly faster (but factor in the time for explanation of tasks and review of results). Also delegate when there is no possible way you'll have time to do everything in your pile, and others have time. But the last time a firm I was in experienced a large layoff (about 15% of staff), the most common denominator of those let go was that they were middle-managers who acted as pass-throughs of information. One of them was actually referred to throughout the office as "Mr. Delegation", because that's pretty much all the visible work that he did. I just meant: don't be him.
I think Norman probably provided the best answer here. How to be the client contact with only a few years experience and hidden back in the production area, that will be tough.
@Gruen, We had a horribly slow summer/early fall due to clients sitting on their hands waiting for the election to play out. Things have picked up considerably since then. The world didn't end (at least not yet) and people decided to go ahead with projects.
Being paid well should not be a cause for concern. Under performing is. A good employer pays his staff high enough that they have this exact fear and then strive to execute commiserate with their compensation. That's how you get optimum performance from people.
I try to structure and explain my high flat fee's this way too. We can cut your fee down but that means we are less motivated by your project then that of other projects willing to pay a premium. "This fee guarantees you are our top priority" has landed some of my highest paying gigs.
so the pressure you are feeling is good. you have positioned yourself correctly. Use it as motivation to do a good job. and always BE look for the next gig willing to pay a higher rate to become your top priority.
YAY CAPITALISM
72K/yr doesn't seem excessive for the work the the OP does in LA.
archi_dude
I should be where you are I do production and 25% of my time is BIM/Cad Coordination which I hate - it burns my clock ti be doing sheet index when I should be doing design and details - but with a recession on the horizon, I have to do it.
Excel at what your job description is and be competent at the next rung up: nothing wrong with being paid well, we long as you're worth it to the office even if they take a few hits. Be a team player, make sure that everyone around you knows that, be frank with your boss if you start to see things turn (be wiling to 'help out' as needed to get new work in or otherwise help the firm).
If things get ugly, we'll all need to accommodate. Hopefully you're in some of the nicer places - I've known firms where partners took $0/yr for a couple of years in the recession and asked staff to cut salary in to stay (but shortened their work week to allow for them to take another job, then paid back the back pay for the portions over that cut time when the recovery happened)
Thanks for the pep talk everyone! While easier said than done, I'll try to just focus on doing my best and not on negative future possibilities.
72k is good pay? To be honest, for what you say you do, it's OK pay. I'm sure there are more people that make more than you and can be the targets before you.
Xenakis, how far away are yo from being licensed?
Depending on how I progress through the AREs - 2 - 3 years - I'm taking classes at AIA-SF that prepare you for each test - they have this thing called the pact, where for 1g within 1 year, take all the classes and take all the tests - you get your 1g back - so in looking into their so called ARE boot camp
Not to pick on Xenakis but he's been laid off more than most, yet doesn't seem to understand why. If you want to be valuable, be valuable to your clients. Ask to sit in on meetings, and transition into running meetings. Your bosses can't be everywhere at once, and you'll be seen as directly easing their workloads.
Bowling ball - that's not going to happen my office - not until I get licensed
My main objective is to do as much design work as possible and minimize the cad/bim coordinator grunt work - that burns my clock causing me to stay late to do my production and design work when 1/2 the day gets used up fixing sheet lists and other BIM stuff - here I am the BIM fixit man - everyone else here does design and production and leaves by 6 -
You are where you allow yourself to be.
I read that and can't help but think that 1/2 your day is spent doing stuff that any recent grad with a little training would be able to handle. They may not do it as quickly as you do, but they could certainly do it for less money. That's a pretty big target when they look around and everyone else is mostly spending their time producing and designing. You've set yourself apart but in the wrong way.
If I'm seeing that everyone else with your level of experience isn't spending half their day fixing sheet indexes and BIM content, I start to wonder what's up with you that all your sheet indexes and BIM content get messed up and need all the fixing. The only way that looks good is if the entire office knows that they can't do what you do, and that it is necessary and vital to getting projects out the door. Even then, they might wonder that with a little effort they could learn to do it themselves.
being part of the client contact team is important especially if you can deliver quickly when the client makes a change they think should be simple. But it is important to make your team look good to the client not just yourself.
How to do this if you are in the drafting dungeon?
Find RFPs and get permission to fill them out, it is like cold calling with clients. Few people enjoy this task but you can do this, with permission, and possibly land a project.
This is not easy work to do and can be very frustrating but that will make your job, if this becomes part of your job, much more valuable.
over and OUT
Peter N
I agree strongly with Jla-x, in my opinion:
Construction knowledge + software ability + design ability + working well with others + code analysis + hard work + communication - excuse's and poor attiude = value.
in my mind its only a matter of experience where ones value goes up or down.
Everyday intern
I am called upon to do the BIM/cad coordinator stuff because everyone else is "too busy" on their design and production stuff and once people see you doing sheet index and sheet set up - guess who gets called?
See S=r*(theta) or read some of Chigurhs
Oh that's a bad spot to be in Xenakis. You aren't doing yourself any favors there.
I get asked all the time for software related problems. I'll explain the solution but I'll not actually do the work. They are grown ups and can figure it out for themselves.
My point that you have set yourself apart but in the wrong way still stands. Your excuse as to why you are in the spot you are has nothing to do with the fact that you are there in a bad spot. If they were really too busy to do that work, they wouldn't be going home at a decent time. At some point you have to tell them to do their own grunt work ... their inefficient use of their time shouldn't make their problems yours.